About the entry of holding patterns
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About the entry of holding patterns
hi guys, i have some doubts on the entry for holding patterns and hopefully someone can help me out with this...
So the atc will give instructions on the holding pattern, i.e
1. The name of the fix.
2. The cardinal direction of the inbound leg as it radiates from the fix.
3. The radial or bearing that defines the inbound leg.
4. The direction of turns.
5. The length of the legs.
6. An expect further clearance (EFC) time.
i am confused with "2. The cardinal direction of the inbound leg as it radiates from the fix. " ....? Can someone explain the difference between "hold south of the 180 radial " and the "holding north of the 180 radial" by drawing it out.....it has got me a hard time in visualizing the holding pattern....
Also i am wondering if there are other quick methods in visualizing the holding pattern? or the entry?
Thanks in advance!!
So the atc will give instructions on the holding pattern, i.e
1. The name of the fix.
2. The cardinal direction of the inbound leg as it radiates from the fix.
3. The radial or bearing that defines the inbound leg.
4. The direction of turns.
5. The length of the legs.
6. An expect further clearance (EFC) time.
i am confused with "2. The cardinal direction of the inbound leg as it radiates from the fix. " ....? Can someone explain the difference between "hold south of the 180 radial " and the "holding north of the 180 radial" by drawing it out.....it has got me a hard time in visualizing the holding pattern....
Also i am wondering if there are other quick methods in visualizing the holding pattern? or the entry?
Thanks in advance!!
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Yes, have someone show you how to visualize it on the DG or HSI. Once you "see" it, it becomes a lot easier.
Number 3 is what confuses. The radial is what they'll give you, but that doesn't mean it's the same as the inbound course. I find that is a common struggle in understanding holds - at least it was for me. You must determine the inbound course to the fix.
Why they don't just give you an inbound course and be done with all the rest is beyond me. Be much easier. "Hold at blabla Fix, course 180, right or left hand turns" would eliminate the need for all the other BS like cardinal direction etc.
Number 3 is what confuses. The radial is what they'll give you, but that doesn't mean it's the same as the inbound course. I find that is a common struggle in understanding holds - at least it was for me. You must determine the inbound course to the fix.
Why they don't just give you an inbound course and be done with all the rest is beyond me. Be much easier. "Hold at blabla Fix, course 180, right or left hand turns" would eliminate the need for all the other BS like cardinal direction etc.
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I think this is a US/UK thing. Here you will be told to hold at a predetermined fix shown on the chart so you do what the chart says. In the US it is more routine to be given an arbitrary hold and as the OP says that will be rather confusingly described.
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thanks guys!
Actually I am working on the ground school material....the book is called" instrument test prep "which is published by ASA. The exercise often asking which entry( direct , teardrop and parallel )is suitable according to your current heading and the holding fix.
So to speak the cardinal direction of the inbound course has nothing to deal with the heading of inbound course?
I have looked up on the internet and i have found one thing in common: the heading of inbound course is actually the reciprocal of the fix given.....not until i have found the one question in that book which contradicts the above.....
Does anyone have similar problem too?
Actually I am working on the ground school material....the book is called" instrument test prep "which is published by ASA. The exercise often asking which entry( direct , teardrop and parallel )is suitable according to your current heading and the holding fix.
So to speak the cardinal direction of the inbound course has nothing to deal with the heading of inbound course?
I have looked up on the internet and i have found one thing in common: the heading of inbound course is actually the reciprocal of the fix given.....not until i have found the one question in that book which contradicts the above.....
Does anyone have similar problem too?
hinhin
As you have probably worked out, you are asking about an FAA procedure and many of us here are in the UK.
Having used both systems I quickly worked out that "hold south" was unnecessary and the inbound course to the fix and direction of turn (common to both countries) was all that I needed to visualise to hold together with the pictures on the chart and the EFIS - which needed to match each other
"hold south of the 180 radial "
As you have probably worked out, you are asking about an FAA procedure and many of us here are in the UK.
Having used both systems I quickly worked out that "hold south" was unnecessary and the inbound course to the fix and direction of turn (common to both countries) was all that I needed to visualise to hold together with the pictures on the chart and the EFIS - which needed to match each other
You will never get a clearance of "hold South of the 180 Radial".
The clearance will be Hold South of the XXX VOR on the 180 deg radial.
So the inbound leg of the hold will start South of the VOR with you proceeding north on the 180 Radial toward the VOR until you cross it. At this time you will turn right to head back south, fly for for one minute and then turn North again to pick up the 180 radial in bound to the VOR until you cross the VOR and then repeat as necessary.
I have described the simplest possibility, a direct entry to a standard hold with no wind present,
You can't hold North of the VOR on the 180 Radial, as the 180 deg radial is by definition on the South side of the VOR.
It would appear to me you still are having a bit of trouble fully understanding VOR orientations. I would suggest you first review the VOR basics before working on holds.
The clearance will be Hold South of the XXX VOR on the 180 deg radial.
So the inbound leg of the hold will start South of the VOR with you proceeding north on the 180 Radial toward the VOR until you cross it. At this time you will turn right to head back south, fly for for one minute and then turn North again to pick up the 180 radial in bound to the VOR until you cross the VOR and then repeat as necessary.
I have described the simplest possibility, a direct entry to a standard hold with no wind present,
You can't hold North of the VOR on the 180 Radial, as the 180 deg radial is by definition on the South side of the VOR.
It would appear to me you still are having a bit of trouble fully understanding VOR orientations. I would suggest you first review the VOR basics before working on holds.
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Hm, "hold South of the 180 Radial", maybe at Latitude 91 degrees South?
Could anybody report on where such explicit holdings may be encountered, other then in textbooks? I don't remember getting anything else then "hold", "enter holding right turns" or "enter holding at <waypoint>".
Could anybody report on where such explicit holdings may be encountered, other then in textbooks? I don't remember getting anything else then "hold", "enter holding right turns" or "enter holding at <waypoint>".
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Thank you guys! finally I understand what is the use of the cardinal direction !
Holding Patterns Revisited - Holding South or North of a Fix
Big Pistons: Thanks man! I will have a look on it . But at first i thought it was meant to hold on the 180 radial and the north side of the station(i.e. 360 radial), which shouldn't be the case as many of you have said!
Holding Patterns Revisited - Holding South or North of a Fix
Big Pistons: Thanks man! I will have a look on it . But at first i thought it was meant to hold on the 180 radial and the north side of the station(i.e. 360 radial), which shouldn't be the case as many of you have said!
There's a bit of the usual Pprune confusion here.
The US ATC controllers, when instructing you to hold, will announce the cardinal direction of the pattern such as "hold south, 360 inbound right turns"
Somewhere the word "of" has crept in to add confusion.
As I said, I quickly worked out these cardinal announcements were superfluous especially where a published hold was involved - though I suppose if you were given something "ad-hoc" it might help ....
The US ATC controllers, when instructing you to hold, will announce the cardinal direction of the pattern such as "hold south, 360 inbound right turns"
Somewhere the word "of" has crept in to add confusion.
As I said, I quickly worked out these cardinal announcements were superfluous especially where a published hold was involved - though I suppose if you were given something "ad-hoc" it might help ....
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As for the entry, try and work it out as best as you can. But don't worry too much because if you do the easiest entry it will probably be the correct one. If it's the wrong one, you won't be far off the right one.
PM
PM
The hold South (or North or whatever) is to account for a holding fix that isn't at the navaid ie a bearing/radial+DME distance. You would still be on the specified bearing/radial but could hold in one of two possible directions. For example,
"Hold south of the xyz 180 radial 10 dme fix..." or
"Hold north of the xyz 180 radial 10 dme fix..."
Draw the two and see the difference. Remember, to hols south of somewhere on its 180 radial the inbound track must be 360. Vica versa for hold north.
"Hold south of the xyz 180 radial 10 dme fix..." or
"Hold north of the xyz 180 radial 10 dme fix..."
Draw the two and see the difference. Remember, to hols south of somewhere on its 180 radial the inbound track must be 360. Vica versa for hold north.
