SEP over water - do you? And if so how far will you go?
I flew an old, poorly maintained ex RAF trainer from Gatwick to Sharjah, a long time ago. This involved several over water legs, the Channel, Nice to Rome, Brindisi to Athens, Athens to Rhodes, Rhodes to Cyprus, Kuwait to Bahrain. The engine stopped once, while climbing through cloud over the Italian mountains (damp magnetos). Luckily the tired, time-expired Gipsy Queen kept chugging along while I was over water, prepared as I was for ditching with an loaned RAF life-jacket, 10 miniflares and a VHF of limited power. The engine eventually caught fire on take-off from Baghdad, due to a maintenance error before I left.
I was at the age when you just don't think of the risks, and rightly so. I had 110 hours in my log, total, when I left, so I knew all I needed to know. My test-pilot uncle, who had form after crashing the prototype and only Vickers Windsor in 1943, said that of all the stupid things I had done, that was the most stupid (which was saying a lot), and he was right.
But I lived to tell the tale, and so will you, Mr OP, probably; so go for it is my advice, and expand your horizons. Nothing is quite as dangerous as it appears to the terminally cautious. The probability of a normally maintained and operated piston aircraft engine failing without warning is infinitessimal unless you mis-manage it or your fuel; how often has your mass-produced, poorly constructed car engine just stopped for no reason half-way through a trip? Never? Thought so.
You are a lot safer in your SEP doing 200 miles over water than you would be sitting down the back of a nice big ETOPS aircraft which has just had an engine shutdown, and is starting a 420 minute single-engine diversion across the Southern Ocean with the crew hoping like hell that the other one holds up. Or even a 330 minute diversion. IMHO, of course.
PS; I admit I had some undeserved luck as well. When the engine stopped over Italy, instead of gliding into a mountain, deadstick, before coming out of the cloud, as I reckoned I was about to do, I came out of the bottom of the cloud, and there 800 ft below was an air force base so secret it wasn't on the map, with a nice long runway. That's when my T21 training at Lasham proved useful.
I was at the age when you just don't think of the risks, and rightly so. I had 110 hours in my log, total, when I left, so I knew all I needed to know. My test-pilot uncle, who had form after crashing the prototype and only Vickers Windsor in 1943, said that of all the stupid things I had done, that was the most stupid (which was saying a lot), and he was right.
But I lived to tell the tale, and so will you, Mr OP, probably; so go for it is my advice, and expand your horizons. Nothing is quite as dangerous as it appears to the terminally cautious. The probability of a normally maintained and operated piston aircraft engine failing without warning is infinitessimal unless you mis-manage it or your fuel; how often has your mass-produced, poorly constructed car engine just stopped for no reason half-way through a trip? Never? Thought so.
You are a lot safer in your SEP doing 200 miles over water than you would be sitting down the back of a nice big ETOPS aircraft which has just had an engine shutdown, and is starting a 420 minute single-engine diversion across the Southern Ocean with the crew hoping like hell that the other one holds up. Or even a 330 minute diversion. IMHO, of course.
PS; I admit I had some undeserved luck as well. When the engine stopped over Italy, instead of gliding into a mountain, deadstick, before coming out of the cloud, as I reckoned I was about to do, I came out of the bottom of the cloud, and there 800 ft below was an air force base so secret it wasn't on the map, with a nice long runway. That's when my T21 training at Lasham proved useful.
Last edited by old,not bold; 24th Mar 2016 at 23:39.
Yes, what the terminally cautious forget is the fun factor. When one is 23 (and some of us don't grow up) the risk is balanced by the challenge and fun of doing it.
Lets face it if any risk is "bad" one should ban motorbikes, surf boards, swimming, boats, pretty girls, skateboards, coca-cola, horses, fast cars.......
Some enjoy the intellectual challenge of minimising the risk, but for me the marginal chance of death involved flying SEP across the Atlantic is far outweighed by the amazing sight of Greenland coming over the horizon on a clear day.
I'm not saying one should endanger 3rd parties of course.
Lets face it if any risk is "bad" one should ban motorbikes, surf boards, swimming, boats, pretty girls, skateboards, coca-cola, horses, fast cars.......
Some enjoy the intellectual challenge of minimising the risk, but for me the marginal chance of death involved flying SEP across the Atlantic is far outweighed by the amazing sight of Greenland coming over the horizon on a clear day.
I'm not saying one should endanger 3rd parties of course.
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Interesting. I got my PPL(A) flying Tomahawks at Manchester School of Flying.
My wife learned to fly with them, but that's another story. Costs were a big factor then with a £140 teaching flight often costing over £350 due to landing fees and circling for hours over the flats.
Happy days.
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It is not only about personal risk tolerance/attitude to risk, but also about intelligent management/mitigation of risk. I've done IoM, IoW, Scillies, Channel Islands and France several times.
A key consideration for me is sea temperature. I avoid Channel crossings during Winter and Spring, flying only in mid to late summer.
Low temperatures significantly reduce survivability in the water whilst awaiting rescue. Even if you pull your EPIRB in good time, it might take the S&R helicopter or a passing vessel 30-45 minutes to pluck you from the water. In winter that is approaching your survival limit.
I've done the ditching course. Twice. As others have noted, getting into a life raft is not that easy, even from a relatively calm and warm swimming pool.
Over water I fly with a raft and grab bag in easy reach of the exit and wear an EPIRB and life jacket.
A key consideration for me is sea temperature. I avoid Channel crossings during Winter and Spring, flying only in mid to late summer.
Low temperatures significantly reduce survivability in the water whilst awaiting rescue. Even if you pull your EPIRB in good time, it might take the S&R helicopter or a passing vessel 30-45 minutes to pluck you from the water. In winter that is approaching your survival limit.
I've done the ditching course. Twice. As others have noted, getting into a life raft is not that easy, even from a relatively calm and warm swimming pool.
Over water I fly with a raft and grab bag in easy reach of the exit and wear an EPIRB and life jacket.
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SEP over water - do you? And if so how far will you go?
4.9 hrs including about 0.5 exploring the ice-cap before landing.
A truly wonderful experience - and a guaranteed way to cure 'auto-rough'.
Romeo Tango sums it up well:
For me the marginal chance of death involved flying SEP across the Atlantic is far outweighed by the amazing sight of Greenland coming over the horizon on a clear day.
As does old,not bold:
Nothing is quite as dangerous as it appears to the terminally cautious.
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This maybe way off topic but I had the pleasure of meeting Sarah Young at a Party held for the launch of the Klipper around the world yacht race.
Thinking of comments attributed to the Sea being a very dangerous force and one which has to be very respected made me think of the comparison.
She was in the water for less than an hour but they could not revive her.
We are miles away from Reality sitting in a warm environment a few thousand feet up admiring those pretty whitecaps from a distance.
The shock of being there and a few minutes later trying to land in a wall of 20 foot waves and meeting the sea in all its force must be a massive shock.
Sarah Young was a bright bubbly, adventurous person excited at the prospect of this next new adventure now she is no more.
There is a risk and this sort of flying is about what level of risk you are prepared to take.
Sarah was unclipped from the safety line and because of that perished so we should learn from that which doesn't mean sitting in our safe, warm cockpits in jeans and a T shirt with a life raft and jackets tucked away some where in the back but taking every precaution
Don't fly near Dark but make your crossing in the morning
Don't attempt a water crossing if white caps are visible as we all know the damage a car sustains hitting a brick wall at 30 mph
Be properly clothed for the crossing
Wear life jackets and have the life raft at hand
Keep good communication and make sure someone knows your position along the crossing.
You may make risk decisions for yourself but do you have the right to make those decisions for others who don't know or appreciate the risk or may not be as fit as you.
Alone its our choice and no one to blame but ourselves if the cards are stacked against us
Finally a comment from Skipper that in any risk sport there is always the ultimate penalty to pay even with precautions and it is the spirit of people that makes us do these things so while having seen that view of Narsarsuaq in the picture above from a multi engined Turbine I admire those people who fly single piston all that way over a hostile invironment as they have more guts than me
Pace
Thinking of comments attributed to the Sea being a very dangerous force and one which has to be very respected made me think of the comparison.
She was in the water for less than an hour but they could not revive her.
We are miles away from Reality sitting in a warm environment a few thousand feet up admiring those pretty whitecaps from a distance.
The shock of being there and a few minutes later trying to land in a wall of 20 foot waves and meeting the sea in all its force must be a massive shock.
Sarah Young was a bright bubbly, adventurous person excited at the prospect of this next new adventure now she is no more.
There is a risk and this sort of flying is about what level of risk you are prepared to take.
Sarah was unclipped from the safety line and because of that perished so we should learn from that which doesn't mean sitting in our safe, warm cockpits in jeans and a T shirt with a life raft and jackets tucked away some where in the back but taking every precaution
Don't fly near Dark but make your crossing in the morning
Don't attempt a water crossing if white caps are visible as we all know the damage a car sustains hitting a brick wall at 30 mph
Be properly clothed for the crossing
Wear life jackets and have the life raft at hand
Keep good communication and make sure someone knows your position along the crossing.
You may make risk decisions for yourself but do you have the right to make those decisions for others who don't know or appreciate the risk or may not be as fit as you.
Alone its our choice and no one to blame but ourselves if the cards are stacked against us
Finally a comment from Skipper that in any risk sport there is always the ultimate penalty to pay even with precautions and it is the spirit of people that makes us do these things so while having seen that view of Narsarsuaq in the picture above from a multi engined Turbine I admire those people who fly single piston all that way over a hostile invironment as they have more guts than me
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 3rd Apr 2016 at 10:59.
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The probability of a normally maintained and operated piston aircraft engine failing without warning is infinitessimal unless you mis-manage it or your fuel;
how often has your mass-produced, poorly constructed car engine just stopped for no reason half-way through a trip? Never? Thought so.
And bear in mind that an aircraft piston engine runs at much higher power settings for longer than any car engine does.
You are a lot safer in your SEP doing 200 miles over water than you would be sitting down the back of a nice big ETOPS aircraft which has just had an engine shutdown, and is starting a 420 minute single-engine diversion across the Southern Ocean with the crew hoping like hell that the other one holds up.
IMHO we need to agree to disagree. Flying a well maintained SEP over water/fog has a risk which is small but not zero.
Some will take that risk for a perceived benefit. Depending on your point of view this is due to a lack of imagination or a better understanding of statistics.
Throw the dice if you want to, otherwise stay home.
Some will take that risk for a perceived benefit. Depending on your point of view this is due to a lack of imagination or a better understanding of statistics.
Throw the dice if you want to, otherwise stay home.
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Might not see eye to eye on the EU question with SSD but I also have experienced the reliability of aircraft engines.
Continental had a very bad quality control at one time and I had 3 rocker shafts on a nearly new engine part company on a Seneca Five at 200 feet in the climb out
After investigation continental apologised after discovering the 3 shafts were way over torqued at manufacture and replaced the complete engine within 2 weeks
Also remember these are not modern engines but a pretty old design.
I am not for one minute saying don't do it and I have crossed the channel at wider points too many times to remember but having flown USA UK a number of times high level with two jet engines I really admire the guts of those bumbling along low level in tiny single engined pistons.
my friend also a jet pilot used to ferry singles and had the luckiest escape ferrying a tanked up Cessna. He had a fuel transfer problem and the engine stopped midway in IMC, bursting out at 500 feet ASL he came out over the only fishing vessel in 200 miles and luckily was spotted and rescued
Pace
Continental had a very bad quality control at one time and I had 3 rocker shafts on a nearly new engine part company on a Seneca Five at 200 feet in the climb out
After investigation continental apologised after discovering the 3 shafts were way over torqued at manufacture and replaced the complete engine within 2 weeks
Also remember these are not modern engines but a pretty old design.
I am not for one minute saying don't do it and I have crossed the channel at wider points too many times to remember but having flown USA UK a number of times high level with two jet engines I really admire the guts of those bumbling along low level in tiny single engined pistons.
my friend also a jet pilot used to ferry singles and had the luckiest escape ferrying a tanked up Cessna. He had a fuel transfer problem and the engine stopped midway in IMC, bursting out at 500 feet ASL he came out over the only fishing vessel in 200 miles and luckily was spotted and rescued
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Just wondering what would have happened to the whole idea of aviation, if Lindbergh would not have crossed the atlantic in a SEP (and to a large extent extremely low level) ... would we be still sitting on trees or looking for the other cell in the ocean?
Yes, I do fly cross ocean in SEP and no, I do not see that as extraordinary dangerous.
Yes, I do fly cross ocean in SEP and no, I do not see that as extraordinary dangerous.
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Fly4business
I really do admire you for your adventurous streak and obviously we need people like Lindbergh to push the boundaries. You could say the same of any pioneering adventurer who has sailed the world single handed or climbed Everest.
All us more cautious ones are saying is take every precaution you can to minimise those risks
If you come down on a cross Atlantic Ferry and perish you won't hurt anyone on the ground or sea and will bob around frozen in the Ocean thinking it was my choice, my risk.
There is a risk 99 out of 100 you will be fine but if your ever unlucky enough to hit the 100 flight make sure you have every angle covered so you stand a chance. As for making a risk decision for others who are unknowing? We don't have that right
Pace
I really do admire you for your adventurous streak and obviously we need people like Lindbergh to push the boundaries. You could say the same of any pioneering adventurer who has sailed the world single handed or climbed Everest.
All us more cautious ones are saying is take every precaution you can to minimise those risks
If you come down on a cross Atlantic Ferry and perish you won't hurt anyone on the ground or sea and will bob around frozen in the Ocean thinking it was my choice, my risk.
There is a risk 99 out of 100 you will be fine but if your ever unlucky enough to hit the 100 flight make sure you have every angle covered so you stand a chance. As for making a risk decision for others who are unknowing? We don't have that right
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@Pace: I am not that adventurous, but risk-aware.
There are signs we currently live in a world of cowards, which would be unable to built the world we are living in, thus consuming what the braver generations before us did and following degradation of capabilities as every society not evolving.
Part of the game is to be aware of the knowledge that safety only means a risk of known or estimated probability, but not 0% probability.
If I am a pilot alone in the aircraft, it is my decision what to risk and what not. If I fail, I die, so far no problem for me.
If I am a transporter carrying passengers from A to B, I am bound to a risk avers behavior by my responsibility, society and the operator to not threaten the other souls.
Some pilots don't do the difference, treat themselves as third party and go the second way, even if alone in the aircraft - fine with me, but is it the best way?
Making a risk decision for others who may be unknowing was quite common and some of that was part of leadership in the old times? I may follow arguing in the special case with PAX on board of an aircraft, but I fight against denying it altogether as is so common nowadays.
There are signs we currently live in a world of cowards, which would be unable to built the world we are living in, thus consuming what the braver generations before us did and following degradation of capabilities as every society not evolving.
Part of the game is to be aware of the knowledge that safety only means a risk of known or estimated probability, but not 0% probability.
If I am a pilot alone in the aircraft, it is my decision what to risk and what not. If I fail, I die, so far no problem for me.
If I am a transporter carrying passengers from A to B, I am bound to a risk avers behavior by my responsibility, society and the operator to not threaten the other souls.
Some pilots don't do the difference, treat themselves as third party and go the second way, even if alone in the aircraft - fine with me, but is it the best way?
Making a risk decision for others who may be unknowing was quite common and some of that was part of leadership in the old times? I may follow arguing in the special case with PAX on board of an aircraft, but I fight against denying it altogether as is so common nowadays.
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I have crossed the channel at wider points more times than i can remember in SEPs I still relax when seeing the distant coast or cloud lines even though still way out on gliding distance and in my mind the engine always takes on a different tone ))
My Hobby Scuba diving and photography and I did a shark feed off the Bahamas which was manic so probably far more risky
But maybe knowing the Sea and its force and danger as well as knowing how warm and safe you can feel admiring the tiny white caps below as well as having experienced a few mechanical failures in piston twins and singles my posts are a warning to make every safeguard you can.
I also ask that we consider passengers who are unknowing in those risk decisions as we don't have a right to take risk on their behalf
Pace
I have crossed the channel at wider points more times than i can remember in SEPs I still relax when seeing the distant coast or cloud lines even though still way out on gliding distance and in my mind the engine always takes on a different tone ))
My Hobby Scuba diving and photography and I did a shark feed off the Bahamas which was manic so probably far more risky
But maybe knowing the Sea and its force and danger as well as knowing how warm and safe you can feel admiring the tiny white caps below as well as having experienced a few mechanical failures in piston twins and singles my posts are a warning to make every safeguard you can.
I also ask that we consider passengers who are unknowing in those risk decisions as we don't have a right to take risk on their behalf
Pace
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Well it hasn't been suggested I'm a coward for quite a while
I've done some stuff that is quite extraordinarily dangerous before now.
Nowadays though I have a young family to think about, so it's not just about me even if I'm in the cockpit alone. My kids would quite like their daddy to come home. So although I'm still prepared to do things outside a lot of people's risk appetite, I like to do it knowing and understanding the risk, being able to mitigate it where possible and having a decent plan for when it all goes 'tilt'.
Interesting thread this - I actually have no dramas with a trip to the Scillies - I've sailed it in a small boat enough times, but for some reason the IoM bothers me. My experience of sailing in the Irish Sea has not always been pleasant.
I've done some stuff that is quite extraordinarily dangerous before now.Nowadays though I have a young family to think about, so it's not just about me even if I'm in the cockpit alone. My kids would quite like their daddy to come home. So although I'm still prepared to do things outside a lot of people's risk appetite, I like to do it knowing and understanding the risk, being able to mitigate it where possible and having a decent plan for when it all goes 'tilt'.
Interesting thread this - I actually have no dramas with a trip to the Scillies - I've sailed it in a small boat enough times, but for some reason the IoM bothers me. My experience of sailing in the Irish Sea has not always been pleasant.
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DITCHING STATS
After ditching a Long EZ near Shoreham I researched ditching stats and to my surprise found that over 90% of ditchings are survivable...I have flown SEP between Shoreham & Alderney about 30 times a year for the last 6 years. Two Alderney based aircraft have ditched and the occupants were all over 60 and they survived the initial impact but sadly one died after going back into the aircraft to get something. Some ex Fleet Air Arm pilots of similar age survived a ditching near the Scilly Isles several years ago. Claude Graham-White ditched in the Channel during WW1 and spent several hours in the water as did many airman in WW2. Wear a life jacket and carry a life-raft and plenty of gear...PROTECTION, LOCATION, WATER, FOOD.