Circuit joining
So is a "longfinal" call the point at which the aircraft is established on 'final' and, therefore, has the right of way, or is that not until a proper "final" call is made. It is something that has always niggled my mind.
The earlier quoted 4 mile final leaves between 3.45 and 4 mins at most GA approach speeds which will really screw up somebody half way along a reasonably tight base leg. At 2 of the airfields I fly from, there isn't a deadside due to glider flying so a go around would involve a pretty tight turn to fly down the runway. High workload, tight bank angle climbing from approach speed - only a matter of time!
The earlier quoted 4 mile final leaves between 3.45 and 4 mins at most GA approach speeds which will really screw up somebody half way along a reasonably tight base leg. At 2 of the airfields I fly from, there isn't a deadside due to glider flying so a go around would involve a pretty tight turn to fly down the runway. High workload, tight bank angle climbing from approach speed - only a matter of time!
Last edited by rarelyathome; 19th Feb 2015 at 09:06. Reason: sums!
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"Long Final" according to CAP 413 is between 8 and 4 miles, as has been said.
GA pilots calling "Long Finals" correctly should be (a) complimented for correctly applying the detail of CAP413, and then (b) shot.
GA pilots calling "Long Finals" correctly should be (a) complimented for correctly applying the detail of CAP413, and then (b) shot.
So is a "longfinal" call the point at which the aircraft is established on 'final' and, therefore, has the right of way, or is that not until a proper "final" call is made. It is something that has always niggled my mind.
This is a grey area, as the rules regarding rights of way, and flight in the vicinity of an airfield are rather vague and conflicting in places. In my opinion, an aircfraft joining 'straight in' cannot claim to be even in the circuit pattern, let alone on 'final approach' for the purpose of 'right of way'. until it is inside any aircraft on base leg.
Last edited by Mach Jump; 19th Feb 2015 at 10:11. Reason: Spelling
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Quote:
As to the 'Always be witiin gliding distance of the runway whilst in the circuit' argument;.....
I would suggest that, considering the wide range of aircraft we have in circuit patterns today
Quote:
Thank God for someone else who doesn't believe that the mantra of always within gliding distance of the field is always appropriate
Why thank God? Trying to remain within gliding distance of the field sounds completely sensible to me. Very rarely does one share the circuit with a modern passenger jet and so quite why - for example - a circuit containing the usual mix of PA28 and 172's needs to be a size suitable for a Boeing B52 is beyond me.
As to the 'Always be witiin gliding distance of the runway whilst in the circuit' argument;.....
I would suggest that, considering the wide range of aircraft we have in circuit patterns today
Quote:
Thank God for someone else who doesn't believe that the mantra of always within gliding distance of the field is always appropriate
Why thank God? Trying to remain within gliding distance of the field sounds completely sensible to me. Very rarely does one share the circuit with a modern passenger jet and so quite why - for example - a circuit containing the usual mix of PA28 and 172's needs to be a size suitable for a Boeing B52 is beyond me.
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Originally Posted by DaveW
GA pilots calling "Long Finals"...should be...shot
Originally Posted by Mach Jump
In my opinion, an aircfraft joining 'straight in' cannot claim to be even in the circuit pattern, let alone on 'final approach' for the purpose of 'right of way'. until it is inside any aircraft on base leg
…
(BTW MJ, tip the toast crumbs out of your keyboard…)
I am curious as to how many aircraft could safely operate in a "standard" circuit pattern and stay within the 2 or 2.5 nm radius of an ATZ of a typical GA field?
If we consider a few commonly followed conventions we could suggest a standard cirtcuit to be, straight ahead to 500' agl, left turn 90 degrees, level at 1,000', limmediately left 90 degrees again, 90 left again at the end of the downwind leg when the threshold is about 45 degrees behind us, descending on base, to be wings level after the final turn at a miin. of 500'(1nm), final approach as required to land, making a go around decision at 200'agl, and vacating the runway, or performing a 'touch and go'
This would take aroud 6 mins per circuit to complete in a typical training aircraft like a C152, or PA38, and would be just about contained within a standard 2 mile radius ATZ.
Spacing in the cirtcuit would be determined by the need for aircraft on final to have a clear runway at 200'agl, so a min of 30 secs apart.
Assuming that all the aircraft were doing 'touch and goes', this would mean that our 'standard circuit', under ideal conditions, with perfect discipline and accurate flying, could accommodate a maximum of 12 identical aircraft.
MJ
Last edited by Mach Jump; 19th Feb 2015 at 10:15.
Surely you don't mean these ', 'toast crumbs'? 
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I am curious as to how many aircraft could safely operate in a "standard" circuit pattern and stay within the 2 or 2.5 nm radius of an ATZ of a typical GA field?
It's an interesting question, Bingo, and the answer would depend, very much, on what you consider to be a 'standard circuit'
If we consider a few commonly followed conventions we could suggest a standard cirtcuit to be, straight ahead to 500' agl, left turn 90 degrees, level at 1,000', limmediately left 90 degrees again, 90 left again at the end of the downwind leg when the threshold is about 45 degrees behind us, descending on base, to be wings level after the final turn at 500', final approach as required to land, making a go around decision at 200'agl, and vacating the runway, or performing a 'touch and go'
This would take aroud 6 mins per circuit to complete in a typical training aircraft like a C152, or PA38, and would be just about contained within a standard 2 mile radius ATZ.
Spacing in the cirtcuit would be determined by the need for aircraft on final to have a clear runway at 200'agl, so a min of 30 secs apart.
Assuming that all the aircraft were doing 'touch and goes', this would mean that our 'standard circuit', under ideal conditions, with perfect discipline and accurate flying, could accommodate a maximum of 12 identical aircraft.
MJ
I am curious as to how many aircraft could safely operate in a "standard" circuit pattern and stay within the 2 or 2.5 nm radius of an ATZ of a typical GA field?
It's an interesting question, Bingo, and the answer would depend, very much, on what you consider to be a 'standard circuit'
If we consider a few commonly followed conventions we could suggest a standard cirtcuit to be, straight ahead to 500' agl, left turn 90 degrees, level at 1,000', limmediately left 90 degrees again, 90 left again at the end of the downwind leg when the threshold is about 45 degrees behind us, descending on base, to be wings level after the final turn at 500', final approach as required to land, making a go around decision at 200'agl, and vacating the runway, or performing a 'touch and go'
This would take aroud 6 mins per circuit to complete in a typical training aircraft like a C152, or PA38, and would be just about contained within a standard 2 mile radius ATZ.
Spacing in the cirtcuit would be determined by the need for aircraft on final to have a clear runway at 200'agl, so a min of 30 secs apart.
Assuming that all the aircraft were doing 'touch and goes', this would mean that our 'standard circuit', under ideal conditions, with perfect discipline and accurate flying, could accommodate a maximum of 12 identical aircraft.
MJ
MJ,
I would agree with your comment, and admit it would be the ideal situation. It is interesting that quite often having 4 training aircraft in a circuit can create the extended downwinds etc which seen so common.
I recall from an FI seminar some years ago, the speaker suggesting it should be taught that if you cannot turn base at the correct position then you should initiate a go around from downwind and re establish in the circuit. If I recall the speaker explained he taught go arounds from every part of the circuit and regarded a landing as a bonus!
With regard to calling long finals at 4 miles, I seem to remember that any flight more than 3 miles from an airfield was categorised as a cross country, so are we now calling final whilst still on the nav leg?
Interesting thread though.
I would agree with your comment, and admit it would be the ideal situation. It is interesting that quite often having 4 training aircraft in a circuit can create the extended downwinds etc which seen so common.
I recall from an FI seminar some years ago, the speaker suggesting it should be taught that if you cannot turn base at the correct position then you should initiate a go around from downwind and re establish in the circuit. If I recall the speaker explained he taught go arounds from every part of the circuit and regarded a landing as a bonus!
With regard to calling long finals at 4 miles, I seem to remember that any flight more than 3 miles from an airfield was categorised as a cross country, so are we now calling final whilst still on the nav leg?
Interesting thread though.
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So please tell me how you Go Around from Base Leg then?
Technically, by flying just to one particular side of the Runway, an aircraft could be said to be on the Dead Side of the Runway BUT it would never have left the circuit so would not need to rejoin and, at all times, would be conforming to the circuit pattern.
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I don't think there is such a thing as a Standard join these days. Try joining overhead when there is parachuting going on and you might be in for a surprise. Try joining overhead where there is a MATZ above and Typhoons flying around and you might get a surprise.
At airfields like this I favour a base leg or straight in join. At airfields with a SOHJ when I am arriving from the dead side I'd join on crosswind over the upwind numbers.
At "home" I like to join overhead just for fun, and see how accurately and quickly I can crank it around, lose 1000' before crossing the numbers. Our circuit is quite tight due to noise abatement so I think final is typically 0.2 - 0.4 nm.
However if joining from a straight in or Base then I'd be prepared to give way to anyone in the circuit. I shudder to think of someone on base having to "go around" to someone on final as this doesn't really do anything to increase separation. Better would be to extend downwind if there is any ambiguity before turning base, or for the person on long final to adjust speed etc., or go around.
What annoys me more is incorrect position reports...Someone calls up "on final" when in actual fact they are 6 miles out. I had that at Bembridge one time, I was downwind for the westerly runway and someone called in final. I decided to extend downwind and I was half way to shoreham before they passed me !
At airfields like this I favour a base leg or straight in join. At airfields with a SOHJ when I am arriving from the dead side I'd join on crosswind over the upwind numbers.
At "home" I like to join overhead just for fun, and see how accurately and quickly I can crank it around, lose 1000' before crossing the numbers. Our circuit is quite tight due to noise abatement so I think final is typically 0.2 - 0.4 nm.
However if joining from a straight in or Base then I'd be prepared to give way to anyone in the circuit. I shudder to think of someone on base having to "go around" to someone on final as this doesn't really do anything to increase separation. Better would be to extend downwind if there is any ambiguity before turning base, or for the person on long final to adjust speed etc., or go around.
What annoys me more is incorrect position reports...Someone calls up "on final" when in actual fact they are 6 miles out. I had that at Bembridge one time, I was downwind for the westerly runway and someone called in final. I decided to extend downwind and I was half way to shoreham before they passed me !
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You are showing your age. It's LAA these days.
I resemble that remark about my age... I claim that was a typo. Remember being at Wroughton with 5 inside of me downwind. That made for a crick in the neck looking around. I couldn't do it now because of my age, and my neck wont turn like an owl anymore. -
You are obviously not based at a large international airport like I am, together with many other private and training aircraft.
Not a criticism. just an observation. Two approaches here to the same airfield. The first aircraft turns final about a half mile out and takes about 30 seconds to the threshold. The second turns about a mile out and spends around a minute on final.
It's me dragging the 172 in to miss the un-matted (soft) first 200mtrs.
It's also me in the tower on the second clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41s12mQ7Jtk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMVKKI7vtsk
It's me dragging the 172 in to miss the un-matted (soft) first 200mtrs.
It's also me in the tower on the second clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41s12mQ7Jtk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMVKKI7vtsk
Last edited by Flyingmac; 19th Feb 2015 at 12:32.
Just that there's no right way, but there's a quick way and a slower way.
If I'd been behind the Eurostar I might have slipped in ahead of him when I saw him Disappearing into the downwind distance. I have to pay for my fuel.
If I'd been behind the Eurostar I might have slipped in ahead of him when I saw him Disappearing into the downwind distance. I have to pay for my fuel.