VFR to Ukraine
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VFR to Ukraine
Hello all,
I own a Hungarian registered YAK 18-T which I would like to fly to Odessa/Ukraine in the summer.
Can anyone share his/her experience of flying VFR to Ukraine?
I'd love to hear from you.
Thanks in advance!
Kero
I own a Hungarian registered YAK 18-T which I would like to fly to Odessa/Ukraine in the summer.
Can anyone share his/her experience of flying VFR to Ukraine?
I'd love to hear from you.
Thanks in advance!
Kero
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Many thanks Billredshoes,
Excellent read and well done! My aircraft is actually based in LHFM/Fertoszentmiklos, not far from Gyor/Per, so my trip east will almost pick up from where yours ended - still, great information which could turn out useful for a trip to your island one day!
Happy Landings,
Kerosene
Excellent read and well done! My aircraft is actually based in LHFM/Fertoszentmiklos, not far from Gyor/Per, so my trip east will almost pick up from where yours ended - still, great information which could turn out useful for a trip to your island one day!
Happy Landings,
Kerosene
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Ukraine
Hi,
I am a Polish C182 pilot flying quite a lot over Europe (just returned from Bari to Warsaw with LHPP refuel stop, has already been this year in Ostende, Bolzano, Vilnius and some other places),
I do all my flying within Europe with my Cessna if only possible (I can fly IFR up to FL 200)
I have never been to Ukraine with my plain, do not plan to be any soon.
I talked with number of Polish people who flew to Ukraine on private GA flights - and this has always been very very difficult and expensive,
For VFR you will require Ukrainian CA approvals, you need to land on international airport first (of course Odessa is), fees are horrendous (some guy paid EUR 500 for fees including 3 day parking), fuel is poor quality if any and expensive, you better speak Ukrainian or Russian,
in general - I strongly recommend you to go with commercial airline to Ukraine unless you really look for adventure and want to spend a lots of money,
kind regards,
Greg
I am a Polish C182 pilot flying quite a lot over Europe (just returned from Bari to Warsaw with LHPP refuel stop, has already been this year in Ostende, Bolzano, Vilnius and some other places),
I do all my flying within Europe with my Cessna if only possible (I can fly IFR up to FL 200)
I have never been to Ukraine with my plain, do not plan to be any soon.
I talked with number of Polish people who flew to Ukraine on private GA flights - and this has always been very very difficult and expensive,
For VFR you will require Ukrainian CA approvals, you need to land on international airport first (of course Odessa is), fees are horrendous (some guy paid EUR 500 for fees including 3 day parking), fuel is poor quality if any and expensive, you better speak Ukrainian or Russian,
in general - I strongly recommend you to go with commercial airline to Ukraine unless you really look for adventure and want to spend a lots of money,
kind regards,
Greg
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I have experience in flying in Romania if that is what you require...
It is possible to fly VFR there but only with prior permission of the Romanian CAA, which can be obtained a few days before the trip. They will require most plane papers (by fax or email) such as insurance cover and CofA as well as details on the nav/com equipment.
They will then obtain permission for you from the military and give you a permission number to enter on your flight plan.
Jeppesen apparently now has VFR maps of Romania and I believe the AIP is available on line (CAA.RO) .
PM me if you need further info, I have never flown in to the Ukraine itself
It is possible to fly VFR there but only with prior permission of the Romanian CAA, which can be obtained a few days before the trip. They will require most plane papers (by fax or email) such as insurance cover and CofA as well as details on the nav/com equipment.
They will then obtain permission for you from the military and give you a permission number to enter on your flight plan.
Jeppesen apparently now has VFR maps of Romania and I believe the AIP is available on line (CAA.RO) .
PM me if you need further info, I have never flown in to the Ukraine itself
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Hi,
I am a Polish C182 pilot flying quite a lot over Europe (just returned from Bari to Warsaw with LHPP refuel stop, has already been this year in Ostende, Bolzano, Vilnius and some other places),
I do all my flying within Europe with my Cessna if only possible (I can fly IFR up to FL 200)
I have never been to Ukraine with my plain, do not plan to be any soon.
I talked with number of Polish people who flew to Ukraine on private GA flights - and this has always been very very difficult and expensive,
For VFR you will require Ukrainian CA approvals, you need to land on international airport first (of course Odessa is), fees are horrendous (some guy paid EUR 500 for fees including 3 day parking), fuel is poor quality if any and expensive, you better speak Ukrainian or Russian,
in general - I strongly recommend you to go with commercial airline to Ukraine unless you really look for adventure and want to spend a lots of money,
kind regards,
Greg
I am a Polish C182 pilot flying quite a lot over Europe (just returned from Bari to Warsaw with LHPP refuel stop, has already been this year in Ostende, Bolzano, Vilnius and some other places),
I do all my flying within Europe with my Cessna if only possible (I can fly IFR up to FL 200)
I have never been to Ukraine with my plain, do not plan to be any soon.
I talked with number of Polish people who flew to Ukraine on private GA flights - and this has always been very very difficult and expensive,
For VFR you will require Ukrainian CA approvals, you need to land on international airport first (of course Odessa is), fees are horrendous (some guy paid EUR 500 for fees including 3 day parking), fuel is poor quality if any and expensive, you better speak Ukrainian or Russian,
in general - I strongly recommend you to go with commercial airline to Ukraine unless you really look for adventure and want to spend a lots of money,
kind regards,
Greg
Thank you for sharing. Yes I'm aware this might be a tricky task, it's a dream of mine since my wife is from there. It's for the adventure. I understand that this needs a lot of planning and perhaps also some precautions when the aircraft is parked so that neither plane nor items 'take wings'. I hope my wife could help since she knows someone at the airport. My plan would be to go via Constantia/Romania (which also needs some prearrangements, but probably much less) and top up as not to rely on fuel in Odessa which should be unavailable anyway (100LL).
Do you know what charts your Polish friends were using? Did they use an intermediary for their permissions?
Congratulations on your interesting trips by the way. I'm planning to going to Bari in September (from Hungary LHFM)
Cheers, Kero
P.S.: Your Polish AIP also states that place of first landing of international flights must be an airport of entry. Can you confirm this is true, even when coming from a Schengen country?
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I have experience in flying in Romania if that is what you require...
Thanks very much for the offer to help. Yes that will definitely be appreciated since I'm planning to going from my base LHFM/Hungary and might want to stop in Bacau for a visit at the Aerostar factory (YAK52, etc.) and then carry on to Constanta, from there to Odessa.
Have you been at these airports?
Cheers,
Kero
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I planned this route 2 years ago.
Constanta LRCK had avgas, customs, and some GA presence/services.
Odessa UKOO had no avgas, but had customs.
I was planning to fly Crete LGSA - LRCK - UKOO - LZKZ (Kosice, Slovakia, which had avgas and customs).
That route was abandoned the night before due to complicated Eurocontrol routing issues. I don't know about VFR but it should be OK.
Constanta LRCK had avgas, customs, and some GA presence/services.
Odessa UKOO had no avgas, but had customs.
I was planning to fly Crete LGSA - LRCK - UKOO - LZKZ (Kosice, Slovakia, which had avgas and customs).
That route was abandoned the night before due to complicated Eurocontrol routing issues. I don't know about VFR but it should be OK.
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Hi:
1. I assume your wife speaks Russian/Ukrainian - helps a lot
2. Try to call Odessa airport and agree fees etc, ask them how to get VFR overfly permit from Ukrainian CA - if you speak Russian I think they will be very helpful. My friends did not use intermediary for cost reasons - they told would be a good idea to have someone at the airport who will help you for small monies
3. Romania - for VFR you also need CA approval - I flew to Cluj Napoca and it was easy to get via e-mail in English: [email protected] (you will get a permit number you need to put in 18 in flight plan)
4. Maps - i think they still do not have VFR maps for both Romania and Ukraine, you normally use IFR routes and reporting points for VFR flight (I use Jeppesen charts), I would advise to get an approach charts for Odessa and Romanian apt - just in case (probably not a must) - at the approach controller may give you instructions to proceed to IFR points so it helps to know where they are
anyway - good luck and please write me how it was after your return,
Greg
ps. there is no AVgass in Bari, there usually is in Foggia, in case of questions e-mail me at [email protected]
1. I assume your wife speaks Russian/Ukrainian - helps a lot
2. Try to call Odessa airport and agree fees etc, ask them how to get VFR overfly permit from Ukrainian CA - if you speak Russian I think they will be very helpful. My friends did not use intermediary for cost reasons - they told would be a good idea to have someone at the airport who will help you for small monies
3. Romania - for VFR you also need CA approval - I flew to Cluj Napoca and it was easy to get via e-mail in English: [email protected] (you will get a permit number you need to put in 18 in flight plan)
4. Maps - i think they still do not have VFR maps for both Romania and Ukraine, you normally use IFR routes and reporting points for VFR flight (I use Jeppesen charts), I would advise to get an approach charts for Odessa and Romanian apt - just in case (probably not a must) - at the approach controller may give you instructions to proceed to IFR points so it helps to know where they are
anyway - good luck and please write me how it was after your return,
Greg
ps. there is no AVgass in Bari, there usually is in Foggia, in case of questions e-mail me at [email protected]
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There is a set of Jeppesen VFR maps for Romania, being the first release has some mistakes, only a few useful landmarks, must be backed up with a good paper map or better a GPS one, there is a good Garmin topo map.
Shop for map here, or I can assist with purchase and shipping.
Digital Atlas of Romania for Garmin GPS
Indeed there is the need of prior plan and permit - this is true for Romanian airplanes too, due to old military rules still in place, much discussion here on these but not much relief yet. Even Russia announced to ease things ...
Other than that, VFR is easy, plenty of space and only a few planes, enough diverse landscape for easy orientation. Airport taxes can be horrendous, as AIP still notes "minimum of EUR 50" etc.
Shop for map here, or I can assist with purchase and shipping.
Digital Atlas of Romania for Garmin GPS
Indeed there is the need of prior plan and permit - this is true for Romanian airplanes too, due to old military rules still in place, much discussion here on these but not much relief yet. Even Russia announced to ease things ...
Other than that, VFR is easy, plenty of space and only a few planes, enough diverse landscape for easy orientation. Airport taxes can be horrendous, as AIP still notes "minimum of EUR 50" etc.
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IO540 wrote: I planned this route 2 years ago.
Constanta LRCK had avgas, customs, and some GA presence/services.
Odessa UKOO had no avgas, but had customs.
I was planning to fly Crete LGSA - LRCK - UKOO - LZKZ (Kosice, Slovakia, which had avgas and customs).
That route was abandoned the night before due to complicated Eurocontrol routing issues. I don't know about VFR but it should be OK.
Constanta LRCK had avgas, customs, and some GA presence/services.
Odessa UKOO had no avgas, but had customs.
I was planning to fly Crete LGSA - LRCK - UKOO - LZKZ (Kosice, Slovakia, which had avgas and customs).
That route was abandoned the night before due to complicated Eurocontrol routing issues. I don't know about VFR but it should be OK.
Thank you for sharing.
Yes Constanta seems a good choice, from there can follow the coast to Odessa and can avoid Moldovian airspace and the added complications. Sounds like an interesting trip you've been doing - in what aircraft? Cheers, Kero
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Hi:
1. I assume your wife speaks Russian/Ukrainian - helps a lot
2. Try to call Odessa airport and agree fees etc, ask them how to get VFR overfly permit from Ukrainian CA - if you speak Russian I think they will be very helpful. My friends did not use intermediary for cost reasons - they told would be a good idea to have someone at the airport who will help you for small monies
3. Romania - for VFR you also need CA approval - I flew to Cluj Napoca and it was easy to get via e-mail in English: (you will get a permit number you need to put in 18 in flight plan)
4. Maps - i think they still do not have VFR maps for both Romania and Ukraine, you normally use IFR routes and reporting points for VFR flight (I use Jeppesen charts), I would advise to get an approach charts for Odessa and Romanian apt - just in case (probably not a must) - at the approach controller may give you instructions to proceed to IFR points so it helps to know where they are
anyway - good luck and please write me how it was after your return,
Greg
ps. there is no AVgass in Bari, there usually is in Foggia, in case of questions e-mail me at
1. I assume your wife speaks Russian/Ukrainian - helps a lot
2. Try to call Odessa airport and agree fees etc, ask them how to get VFR overfly permit from Ukrainian CA - if you speak Russian I think they will be very helpful. My friends did not use intermediary for cost reasons - they told would be a good idea to have someone at the airport who will help you for small monies
3. Romania - for VFR you also need CA approval - I flew to Cluj Napoca and it was easy to get via e-mail in English: (you will get a permit number you need to put in 18 in flight plan)
4. Maps - i think they still do not have VFR maps for both Romania and Ukraine, you normally use IFR routes and reporting points for VFR flight (I use Jeppesen charts), I would advise to get an approach charts for Odessa and Romanian apt - just in case (probably not a must) - at the approach controller may give you instructions to proceed to IFR points so it helps to know where they are
anyway - good luck and please write me how it was after your return,
Greg
ps. there is no AVgass in Bari, there usually is in Foggia, in case of questions e-mail me at
1. Yes and she'll come along
2. She knows someone at the airport so I hope this will help.
3. Although EU still quite restrictive but manageable I understand
4. Just learned there are Jepp VFR Chart for Romania out (through this thread); it nearly covers all the last leg to Odessa (just that tiny bit missing); and yes, I'll print out all approach plates (aircraft is just VFR equipped but has GPSMAP196/495 so could follow them in VMC
I promise to share my experiences later on with everyone on this thread.
Thanks also for the hint with Foggia, very much appreciated, might come back to you later with more questions!
Cheers,
Kero
PS: Polish entry requirements states first landing at international airport required - also true for Schengen arrivals? Do you know?
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Flew there in 2003, we were six aircraft.
I confirm all the above regarding permits, fuel quality and airport expenses.
Bear in mind that you will most probably be instructed to fly IFR routes and reporting points, especially by Odessa ATC.
P.S. Don't even think of using Odessa airport toilettes.
I confirm all the above regarding permits, fuel quality and airport expenses.
Bear in mind that you will most probably be instructed to fly IFR routes and reporting points, especially by Odessa ATC.
P.S. Don't even think of using Odessa airport toilettes.
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byteworks wrote:
Thank so much for your help, this is great. I can get the Charts from JeppDirect, and will look for a topgraphical paper map.
I'm considering a stop in Cluj, then maybe Tulcea or Constanta before going to Odessa. Have you been to these airfields?
Hopefully the airspace regulations will ease up for you soon, it should be expected, we're all in the EU after all. And, like you said, even Russia has passed a law to enable less restricted VFR flying, however I'm pessimistic that it will be applied soon.
Cheers, Kero
There is a set of Jeppesen VFR maps for Romania, being the first release has some mistakes, only a few useful landmarks, must be backed up with a good paper map or better a GPS one, there is a good Garmin topo map.
Shop for map here, or I can assist with purchase and shipping.
Digital Atlas of Romania for Garmin GPS
Indeed there is the need of prior plan and permit - this is true for Romanian airplanes too, due to old military rules still in place, much discussion here on these but not much relief yet. Even Russia announced to ease things ...
Other than that, VFR is easy, plenty of space and only a few planes, enough diverse landscape for easy orientation. Airport taxes can be horrendous, as AIP still notes "minimum of EUR 50" etc.
Shop for map here, or I can assist with purchase and shipping.
Digital Atlas of Romania for Garmin GPS
Indeed there is the need of prior plan and permit - this is true for Romanian airplanes too, due to old military rules still in place, much discussion here on these but not much relief yet. Even Russia announced to ease things ...
Other than that, VFR is easy, plenty of space and only a few planes, enough diverse landscape for easy orientation. Airport taxes can be horrendous, as AIP still notes "minimum of EUR 50" etc.
I can get the Charts from JeppDirect, and will look for a topgraphical paper map.I'm considering a stop in Cluj, then maybe Tulcea or Constanta before going to Odessa. Have you been to these airfields?
Hopefully the airspace regulations will ease up for you soon, it should be expected, we're all in the EU after all. And, like you said, even Russia has passed a law to enable less restricted VFR flying, however I'm pessimistic that it will be applied soon.
Cheers, Kero
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Flew there in 2003, we were six aircraft.
I confirm all the above regarding permits, fuel quality and airport expenses.
Bear in mind that you will most probably be instructed to fly IFR routes and reporting points, especially by Odessa ATC.
P.S. Don't even think of using Odessa airport toilettes.
I confirm all the above regarding permits, fuel quality and airport expenses.
Bear in mind that you will most probably be instructed to fly IFR routes and reporting points, especially by Odessa ATC.
P.S. Don't even think of using Odessa airport toilettes.
Sounds like a great adventure you've had in 2003. Will keep your warning in mind, although some things might have changed since then for the better. Will report here.
Cheers, Kero
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Kerosene,
concerning Poland and landing on international airport - I am surprised they still have it in AIP (do they?),
I am based in smaller Warsaw airport (EPBC, with Avgass, lots of GA trafick), which is not international, and I never use Polish international airport going abroad to/from Schengen,
I do not think you may have any problem landing in any Polish airstrip if comming form Schengen - thou would be good to call apt beforehand to make sure they are open and check for Avgass (there is a good Portal | dlapilota.pl with all airstrips)
regards,
Greg
concerning Poland and landing on international airport - I am surprised they still have it in AIP (do they?),
I am based in smaller Warsaw airport (EPBC, with Avgass, lots of GA trafick), which is not international, and I never use Polish international airport going abroad to/from Schengen,
I do not think you may have any problem landing in any Polish airstrip if comming form Schengen - thou would be good to call apt beforehand to make sure they are open and check for Avgass (there is a good Portal | dlapilota.pl with all airstrips)
regards,
Greg
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Kerosine
Not much avgas in Romania but some is available.
Dorin Ivascu is MD of Baneasa airport (Bucharest) as well as the operator at Tuzla Airport, a grass aerodrome not far from the bulgarian border on the coast, much nicer than Constanta. He s the best contact to find out about routing, assist in CAA permissions and advice on avgas availability.
PM me for his email.
Bacau I ve not flown to, Iasi (no avagas) is a good hard runway and a pretty town on the Moldavian border. Same at Sibiu and Timisoara.
Strejnic i hear now has a hard runway, just north of Bucharest, west of Ploiesti
Some polish are currently doing some VFR via Romania to Turkey, I have their email for their experience. pm me
Dorin Ivascu is MD of Baneasa airport (Bucharest) as well as the operator at Tuzla Airport, a grass aerodrome not far from the bulgarian border on the coast, much nicer than Constanta. He s the best contact to find out about routing, assist in CAA permissions and advice on avgas availability.
PM me for his email.
Bacau I ve not flown to, Iasi (no avagas) is a good hard runway and a pretty town on the Moldavian border. Same at Sibiu and Timisoara.
Strejnic i hear now has a hard runway, just north of Bucharest, west of Ploiesti
Some polish are currently doing some VFR via Romania to Turkey, I have their email for their experience. pm me
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Single Engline to Ukraine
Hi Kerosene,
Can't really help you with the VFR to Ukraine but I did make a trip in a Piper Saratoga from EHBK (Maastricht, NL) to UKFF (Simferopol, Ukraine) in 2001.
Back then there was definitely no AVGAS in Ukraine and unlike your Yak18T it won't take MOGAS as it is fuel injected.
We took the route EHBK-LHBP-LRCK, topped up in LRCK (they had to bring the AVGAS from Bucharest by car which was not cheap) and then flew across the Black ses to UKFF.
On the way back we flew UKFF-LRBS and landed with a minimum fuel there; the plan B in case of unfavorable winds would be to land in LRCK and wait a day or two for the fuel.
Then again LRBS-LOWW-EHBK was pretty straightforward.
Once again, I fear that might have been the very first single engine piston flight into UKFF because when we landed they gave us a mini-bus for the crew and a bus for the passengers.
Down to LRBS everything was pretty straightforward, after that we had to obtain an overflight permit by FAX from some coordination center in Kiev and then use the overflight permit number in the remarks section when we filed the IFR flight plan LRBS-UKFF.
If you look at the IFR charts over the Black sea there is no airway below flight level 195 and none of them go straight. We ended up filing for FL 195 and then just told the controller unable to climb FL 195 :-)
Then we asked direct NL (Nikolaevka NDB) and landed happily in UKFF.
I think VFR might be a problem because the Ukrainians are simply do not know how to handle it.
Don't know how things are now but my best bet would be to fly a sort of controlled VFR or perhaps file an IFR flight plan after all.
Like I said this information is quite outdated, but if you have any specific questions, feel free.
OM
Can't really help you with the VFR to Ukraine but I did make a trip in a Piper Saratoga from EHBK (Maastricht, NL) to UKFF (Simferopol, Ukraine) in 2001.
Back then there was definitely no AVGAS in Ukraine and unlike your Yak18T it won't take MOGAS as it is fuel injected.
We took the route EHBK-LHBP-LRCK, topped up in LRCK (they had to bring the AVGAS from Bucharest by car which was not cheap) and then flew across the Black ses to UKFF.
On the way back we flew UKFF-LRBS and landed with a minimum fuel there; the plan B in case of unfavorable winds would be to land in LRCK and wait a day or two for the fuel.
Then again LRBS-LOWW-EHBK was pretty straightforward.
Once again, I fear that might have been the very first single engine piston flight into UKFF because when we landed they gave us a mini-bus for the crew and a bus for the passengers.
Down to LRBS everything was pretty straightforward, after that we had to obtain an overflight permit by FAX from some coordination center in Kiev and then use the overflight permit number in the remarks section when we filed the IFR flight plan LRBS-UKFF.
If you look at the IFR charts over the Black sea there is no airway below flight level 195 and none of them go straight. We ended up filing for FL 195 and then just told the controller unable to climb FL 195 :-)
Then we asked direct NL (Nikolaevka NDB) and landed happily in UKFF.
I think VFR might be a problem because the Ukrainians are simply do not know how to handle it.
Don't know how things are now but my best bet would be to fly a sort of controlled VFR or perhaps file an IFR flight plan after all.
Like I said this information is quite outdated, but if you have any specific questions, feel free.
OM
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SP-THC wrote:
Yes they do. Polish AIP GEN 1.2, 1.2: 'Aircraft entering or leaving the territory of Republic of Poland shall conduct first landing or last departure at/from international aerodrome or heliport listed in AIP Poland in part AD 2 or AD 3.'
Interesting that this doesn't necessarily conform to practice. I suppose you're able to file flight plans from outside to non-international airports?
Best Regards,
KERO
concerning Poland and landing on international airport - I am surprised they still have it in AIP (do they?),
Interesting that this doesn't necessarily conform to practice. I suppose you're able to file flight plans from outside to non-international airports?
Best Regards,
KERO