I understand that a larger amount of hours is required to convert a FAA PPL in a JAA PPL, but there aren't lots of flying schools in the US who provide JAA PPL courses, specially not in the region I am interested in.
I've planned to go to Texas because I'm more familiar with the place. The only possibility would be a FAA PPL then. Do you think the KNVVL knows more about 'convertion'?
The biggest 'problem' would indeed be the accomodation and the number of men so I'm looking for trustworthy housing.
No JAA schools in Texas, indeed. I have heard a rumour that there's a school in Arizona trying to get JAA/CAA certified. You might want to check that out. I don't know the name of the school though.
I have no doubt the KNVVL knows about the conversion, but the authoritative source would be the IVW: http://www.ivw.nl. However, I'm pretty sure the short version will be that you need something like 100 hours PIC before they'll let you convert your FAA PPL into a Dutch JAA PPL without doing all exams over again. And you'd definitely have to do air law and a skills test anyway. Just like the UK CAA requires. In other words, that won't be an option for you in the near future unless you do some serious hour building on your FAA PPL.
Having said that, I know that there are a few N-reg planes in the Netherlands for hire. One of the places is Air Service Limburg in Maastricht (www.asl.nl) and there are a few members of my club (based in Rotterdam) who own N-reg planes privately and might want to hire them out to you.
Another option you might want to consider is to do your flying training at an FAA flight school in Texas, but not do any exams there (except the FAA mandated pre-solo exams which is a laugh anyway). Get all your lessons properly signed off though. Then come back to NL, do all the theory here plus the skills test. You can save a lot of money on flying costs that way but end up with a Dutch JAA PPL anyway. Do check with a Dutch school/examiner beforehand to see what sort of paperwork they need in order to accept the hours flown in the US as proper training hours.
One other thing to be aware of, if you want to do FAA training, is that there are two types of FAA schools, part 61 and part 141 or something like that. Only one of those types is SEVIS approved, meaning that they can issue you the paperwork for an M-1 visa. All the JAA schools in the US are SEVIS approved so this is not an issue if you do JAA training.
I've asked 'Verkeer en Waterstaat' and they said the same, after getting a FAA PPL you must fly 100 hours and make the airlaw and human performences examns. Doesn't sound very good... think I'll look for the flight school in Arizona you mentioned.
In Rotterdam as well? Is that at 'RAC'? That would be great since I'm going to study there.
I've thought about the idea of flying in Texas and do the theory here as well, but isn't it necessary to do some theory before going solo?
I've thought about the idea of flying in Texas and do the theory here as well, but isn't it necessary to do some theory before going solo?
The FAA mandates a very simple pre-solo written exam which is nowhere near as complicated as the actual PPL exams. It's just 18 or so basic questions on emergency procedures, airport procedures, airspace surrounding the place where you train and so on. Furthermore, your instructor has to sign you out each time you go out on your own, and will verify your navigation plan and other things to make sure you return safely.
JAA does not mandate anything before solo or x-country solo. There is a "suggestion" somewhere that the instructor should check the theoretical knowledge of the solo candidate but there is no set exam. Some schools have made their own FAA-style pre-solo exam specifically for this purpose.
On the other hand, a lot of schools think it's a good idea to let you study the theory and do the written exams while you are actually doing flying training, and if you think about it, it makes sense. To make sure you actually progress with the theory, a lot of schools require that you do air law before first solo, and nav before first x-country solo. But it's not a legal requirement anywhere, as far as I know, and if you have a good reason not to do those exams (for instance because you're going to do them, or have already done them, in another country) I'm sure that the flight school will understand and come up with something else, a la FAA.
Daphne, you also have a PM (Private Message)
Last edited by BackPacker : 30th March 2008 at 17:09.
Very intresting to read this guide. I know a instructor in the US, but im from Norway. I really want to take the FAA PPL, then convert when im home. I have been in contact with the embassy with things i need to do before i leave, but do i need a flight school to full out the form I-20? Does it need to be a flight school, since I just know a instructor?
Explore, if you intend to do a full-time course (which is 18 hours or more of practical work per week) you are not allowed into the US under the visa waiver program. So you need an M-1 visa for which you need the I-20 form plus some other paperwork
The visa needs to be "sponsored" by a flight school and for this to work the flight school needs to be SEVIS approved. There are two types of schools: part 61 and part 141 (or something like that) and only one of those types is SEVIS approved by default.
Theoretically you can wiggle your way out of this if the course is part-time and not the main objective of your stay in the US. But that's a rare situation and most officials (including the friendly INS official that decides whether you're admitted into the US or not) will expect you to have an M-1. So it's probably you who will have to explain/prove that you don't need a visa for what you're attempting.
In addition to this, I understand that the TSA (which needs to approve things in your case anyway) checks for the M-1 visa and will ask questions if you don't have one.
Sooo.... Good luck! Let me know if things worked out as planned.
Theoretically you can wiggle your way out of this if the course is part-time and not the main objective of your stay in the US.
To do a private certificate, IR or multi, you would need to go through the TSA process which require visa details. So while in theory a part time can get you under the wire as far as a visa is concerned it wont with the TSA.
Moral is dont play fast and loose with the rules, get the visa, do the TSA and go fly.
To do a private certificate, IR or multi, you would need to go through the TSA process which require visa details.
It's been discussed here on PPRuNe before and the general consensus of the population here was that it's not the TSAs job to verify you have a visa. In fact, if you look at the original ruling on the TSA process (a very dense PDF file on the TSA website) you'll find that the word "visa" is only mentioned twice or so, in a completely different context.
It is true that the TSA, as part of the information gathering on you, ask for your passport number and visa details. But as far as I know, the site allows you to specify "no visa". (Mind you, it was three years ago that I went through this process and this is something that I don't remember clearly, plus the site has been changed in the meantime.)
But if the TSA *requires* you to have a visa somehow you can point them to their own regulations and say they're wrong. Particularly if you can prove that you do not need a visa according to the INS for whatever you are going to do.
All we need is a brave soul to test out this theory though.
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To add, I just browsed the AFSP website, and here's what the website itself has to say about this on the pages where you submit your personal information:
Quote:
U.S. Visa: If you have a U.S. Visa, please enter this information. Do not list visas from non-U.S. sources.
* AFSP may cancel an applicant's flight training request if AFSP becomes aware the candidate is intending to take flight training without the appropriate immigration status. If you have questions about a cancelled request, you may call AFSP at XXX
So it looks like the TSA simply follows INS rules on whether a visa is required or not. There doesn't seem to be a blanket visa requirement for all cases.
Well, the only reasonable advise is to get a visa. You dont want to be blacked by the Immigration service or the TSA. Think of your next TSA application when one has been withdrawn for an immigration violation.
Might keep you out of the country even if you are only going to Disney with the kids.
Quote:
All we need is a brave soul to test out this theory though
I agree the need for a visa is based on the primary reason for your visit to the US. I did not bother with it last time I went to the US on business.
Particularly as the expense and hassle of an 800 mile round trip and a day lost for the visa interview did not appeal.
From experience the TSA don't ask for any visa details but they do want to know who you are from your passport.
They can cancel the training permission if they find out that you are there without the necessary visa - but then you would have to argue necessary etc. as discussed above.
As above the visa requirement is down to the primary reason for your visit and not the flying which you may or may not do on the side.
It helps I guess to do the TSA paperwork after you arrive to avoid any argument and in my case it only took three days.
There is no 'fixed' link between TSA and having a visa. "Been there, done that" with TSA, without visa...
All fully legal and correct - the key point: the MAIN reason for your stay in the US is...?
What actual training did you undertake in the US?
To advise people that there is no link between the TSA and the requirement for a visa is very foolhardy.
TSA = Homeland Security = USCIS. They DO talk to each other.
Anybody found taking Flight Training in the US without the correct paperwork will be shown the door quite quickly and you don't get invited back...
Hence why I ask you to clarify as to what 'training' you actually took here in the US.
Who needs a visa and what type of visa is required?
If you are visiting the US to hour build or a flying holiday and have a FAA License or an FAA license issued on the basis of your Foreign License, you can enter the country on a Visa Waiver and fly as long as you meet the F.A.R.s. (BFR, Medical, etc.)
If you need to convert your license to a Restricted F.A.A. License, you will need to submit the request to the F.A.A. in Oklahoma City so they can do a background check; this process takes 20-60 days. If you get the o.k. to convert your license you can enter the country on a Visa Waiver.
If you do not have the time to wait to convert your license, you can take the F.A.A. Written Test and the Flight Test in order to get an Unrestricted F.A.A. License. In order to do this you will need to be on an F-1, M-1, or J-1 Visa. (Since you are seeking a License/Rating)
If you decide not to convert your license and just fly on an F.A.A. Student Solo Certificate, you will once again need to be on an F-1, M-1, or J-1 Visa. (Since it is a Student License)
Going to the U.S.A. in order to train for a J.A.A. or F.A.A. License. You must be on a F-1, M-1, J-1 Visa. (Since you are seeking a License/Rating)
If you are coming to the U.S.A. in order to revalidate you license, either F.A.A. or J.A.A., you can come on a Visa Waiver since that is a currency requirement and you are not adding a Rating/License. This is subject to change since the authorities are looking at this situation and there are people in USCIS which want this to require a Visa.
If you have entered the U.S.A. on holiday and while here decided to do flight training. Should you want to train in the U.S.A. after you arrive in the U.S.A. and are on a B Visa, you can apply to change your status to F-1/M-1/J-1 Visa and must wait till your status is changed before you can begin training. If you entered the U.S.A. on a Visa Waiver, you will have to leave the country, obtain the appropriate Visa and then return to train. The Visa Waiver is NOT a Visa and therefore you do not have a Visa to change status on.
Last edited by SoCal App : 28th June 2008 at 03:36.
SoCal
There has been a lot of talk on here about not needing any visa if the lesson or add-on rating takes under 18 hrs a week. Do you know if that is true ?
I think, the various references to this magical 18 hours a week is simply an attempt to try to justify the reason for not getting a visa for Flight Training.
TSA definition of "flight training" for aircraft with an MTOW of 12,500 pounds or less includes flight training for a recreational pilot, sport pilot, or private pilot certificate; multiengine rating (at any level); or instrument rating.
Visa notice: Taking flight training without an appropriate visa could be a violation of your immigration status and could result in your arrest and removal from the United States; therefore, it is important that you have a visa that permits you to take flight training in the United States. If you do not possess the correct visa, or if you have questions pertaining to your visa status or the appropriate visas for flight training, please contact your local Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services at 800/375-5283 or www.uscis.gov or the State Department Consular Affairs Office for assistance. The AFSP will deny flight training requests from candidates who are present in the United States illegally or who do not have an appropriate visa for flight training
Notice there is no mention of any reference to less than 18 hours a week - just to "Flight Training".
The 18 hour reference stems back to the vocational student and nowhere does it ever get mentioned in reference to Flight Training.
If somebody is coming to the US to undertake any of the training mentioned at the top of this post, you will need TSA clearance along with the correct visa.
The Visa waiver - is NOT a visa - period.
What somebody may have 'got away with' 2 years ago etc is quite different from say 6 months ago and even more rigid today.
I vaguely recall, SoCal, that this 18hrs thing was done here before, and it is contained within the primary U.S. Visa legislation. I can probably dig out some references you could follow up.
The reason why the TSA etc don't refer to it is because they don't create law; they are just writing their own interpretations of it because they like to feel they can.
The bottom line is however purely practical - I doubt any school (except maybe some very small ones) in the USA will touch the candidate with a 20ft bargepole unless he comes with the gold plated paperwork...
My experience of people involved in the FAA training business (including some in the UK) is that most are simply not interested in reading the regs. Not just the security regs but also stuff like eligibility of previous training. I spent 2005 trying to do the IR here in the UK but gave up after just about everybody claimed that all eligible previous training had to be done with FAA instructors These are the real problems in this game.
You have to first have your Flight School identified and they have agreed to sponsor your visa etc. You need to have your dates nailed down.
Then you can complete the TSA request quoting that Flight Training School etc.
The TSA process takes from 1-4 weeks depending upon how quickly the Flight School play their part.
I don't know how long the wait is these days for a VISA to be issued at the US Embassy in London.
If you wait till you arrive in the US to get your fingerprinting done, that will hold up your ability to commence training till the TSA come back and give you the green light. That could be a few days to a week or longer if there are any issues.
Thanks SoCal App. My situation is at the moment is that I want to start the TSA process, but I don't have the Visa yet, and probably won't have until quite close to leaving for the US.
Should I get underway with the TSA without entering a Visa on the form or do I need to wait until I have the Visa?
These are the real problems in this game.
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