Quality of newbies
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I am about 55 hours into an integrated CPL course at a non-'sausage factory' school. My instructor is a career instructor with 8,000 hours or so. He has the least experience of any of the crew there!
I chose this school after checking quite a few out because they are more than a little bit 'old school' in how they train their pilots - less about worrying how shiny and new the plane is, more about flying. No glass cockpits, no GPS, no 30 metre wide runway...no stupid student pilot uniforms required, check your attitude at the door.
Anyways, I would like to think that I am trying to be the opposite of the newbie you are describing OP. I am working my arse off in my (full-time) non-aviation job to pay for my training. I do study hard, I do ask questions, I read lots of magazines, articles, investigation reports, and so on. It is also worth noting that when I hopefully get a job in GA (I'm probably going to go bush) I will be taking a massive pay cut from what I do now; I'm not doing this for money or status, I'm doing it because I love flying.
So please, don't lump every newbie in the same boat! We aren't all poorly trained with bad attitudes and huge egos.
I chose this school after checking quite a few out because they are more than a little bit 'old school' in how they train their pilots - less about worrying how shiny and new the plane is, more about flying. No glass cockpits, no GPS, no 30 metre wide runway...no stupid student pilot uniforms required, check your attitude at the door.
Anyways, I would like to think that I am trying to be the opposite of the newbie you are describing OP. I am working my arse off in my (full-time) non-aviation job to pay for my training. I do study hard, I do ask questions, I read lots of magazines, articles, investigation reports, and so on. It is also worth noting that when I hopefully get a job in GA (I'm probably going to go bush) I will be taking a massive pay cut from what I do now; I'm not doing this for money or status, I'm doing it because I love flying.
So please, don't lump every newbie in the same boat! We aren't all poorly trained with bad attitudes and huge egos.
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Eclan, that's just my point. Things have changed, quality of most pilots skills have deteriorated.
I said we insist in 10 hours ICUS, others are looking at going to 50 hours. I have been told 50 hours is typical now in South Africa with similar flying.
As per wet season flying, it's always best to plan for the worse and train for it. If you are flying daily it will happen that you will get caught occasionally.That's part of situational awareness training. In the old days it was easier to set a newbie off with very limited ICUS or no ICUS time at all, such as yourself as you came with a higher base set of skills. As you said you have been out of it for 20 years and a lot has changed in that time. Just have a chat to any CP.
Guess I am annoyed because the cost to the newbie to get a CPL has risen and the standard has dropped. They aren't getting value for money. We at the end have go back and spend time and money(ICUS is dead money) getting a pilot to line that 20 years ago wouldn't have got past a check ride.
There are still some good training orgs out there, and the students stand out as the CFI's take pride in their fledglings. So don't think it is all Gen Y. Most of these are small training orgs or flying clubs. So it's all not doom and gloom. But the alarm bells are ringing.
MS
I said we insist in 10 hours ICUS, others are looking at going to 50 hours. I have been told 50 hours is typical now in South Africa with similar flying.
As per wet season flying, it's always best to plan for the worse and train for it. If you are flying daily it will happen that you will get caught occasionally.That's part of situational awareness training. In the old days it was easier to set a newbie off with very limited ICUS or no ICUS time at all, such as yourself as you came with a higher base set of skills. As you said you have been out of it for 20 years and a lot has changed in that time. Just have a chat to any CP.
Guess I am annoyed because the cost to the newbie to get a CPL has risen and the standard has dropped. They aren't getting value for money. We at the end have go back and spend time and money(ICUS is dead money) getting a pilot to line that 20 years ago wouldn't have got past a check ride.
There are still some good training orgs out there, and the students stand out as the CFI's take pride in their fledglings. So don't think it is all Gen Y. Most of these are small training orgs or flying clubs. So it's all not doom and gloom. But the alarm bells are ringing.
MS
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I only said it was half the issue.
The other is the catch 22/circular argument that is GA instruction. Unlike most other professions, no one ever commences flying with the career goal of being an instructor, and unfortunately the art of 'teaching' lies solely with those with the aptitude AND the work ethic for it. Those people a few and far between.
The schools can't change it. Ground schools are as guilty as flying schools. Money is always tight, to the point where the 'path of least resistance' is not only the most expedient way, it's also often the only affordable way.
You have to pay monkeys when you only own peanuts.
The other is the catch 22/circular argument that is GA instruction. Unlike most other professions, no one ever commences flying with the career goal of being an instructor, and unfortunately the art of 'teaching' lies solely with those with the aptitude AND the work ethic for it. Those people a few and far between.
The schools can't change it. Ground schools are as guilty as flying schools. Money is always tight, to the point where the 'path of least resistance' is not only the most expedient way, it's also often the only affordable way.
You have to pay monkeys when you only own peanuts.
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Hi Eclan
I fly charter in the Top End and would have to agree with Mick. I also would not disagree with your experiences as I have seen a few bright newbies come on board and be checked to line with very little icus and be great charter pilots. The standard has dropped with flying training. I did my NVFR after I had about 1200 hrs of charter experience. The instructor who did my rating had thousands of hours of instructional experience and knew a hell of a lot about flight training but was clueless as to the realities of remote charter flying.
I guess my point is that basic flying training and Commercial charter, Rpt etc are two different games. I expect that flying schools should put out a training programme based on "real world" flying as this is what the majority of students are aiming for.
The company I work for wont hire fresh Cpls. In reality it would take 30 plus icus hours to get the average low time pilot up to speed. Most of the low timers we have had come through cant even do a manual flight plan!
Regards
I fly charter in the Top End and would have to agree with Mick. I also would not disagree with your experiences as I have seen a few bright newbies come on board and be checked to line with very little icus and be great charter pilots. The standard has dropped with flying training. I did my NVFR after I had about 1200 hrs of charter experience. The instructor who did my rating had thousands of hours of instructional experience and knew a hell of a lot about flight training but was clueless as to the realities of remote charter flying.
I guess my point is that basic flying training and Commercial charter, Rpt etc are two different games. I expect that flying schools should put out a training programme based on "real world" flying as this is what the majority of students are aiming for.
The company I work for wont hire fresh Cpls. In reality it would take 30 plus icus hours to get the average low time pilot up to speed. Most of the low timers we have had come through cant even do a manual flight plan!
Regards
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sigh
Mick,
Totally agree, I started my PPL training some 16 years ago but had to stop due to work & family. At 40 I decided to get back into it as I had the chance. Even as a newbie I was shocked at the standard compared to 16 years ago. Simple things like not being able to hold an altitude or read a map, and this was departing Wellington International in NZ!! It just seems that these little things no longer matter because everyone sees themselves in a shiny jet and lets the autopilot do it all.
Attitude plays a huge part and preparing to go through some hard yards, something that is very much missing these days. I was fortunate to have 2 months recently in a king air on air ambo missions. Did I learn lots, hell yes! Being thrown around at night in 60kts winds, trying to plan my descent, reading star charts and no auto pilot soon made me realise that stuff can go wrong very quickly. 180kts taught me to always be 10mins ahead. All of this happening while I had a prem baby in the back. Then came the landing. Only then did I realise the value of flying the 152 on 1 wheel down the centreline of the runway to come to terms with a crosswind landing. My instructor made me do this every time there was a strong crosswind.
He also told me that "the plane doesn't know how big it is, how wet it is, how dark it is or even how many engines it has...it is just an airframe. As a pilot we get the plane to do what we want it to. If it doesn't do what we want it to then we are doing something wrong, so fix it."
Maybe I view this stuff a bit differently because I have a bit of life experience (Spent 7 years in the Police and have had my fair share of undie sucking moments) To me there just seems to be a lack of common sense.
I know in the last year I have put in a huge effort to get into the position I am in now.
Totally agree, I started my PPL training some 16 years ago but had to stop due to work & family. At 40 I decided to get back into it as I had the chance. Even as a newbie I was shocked at the standard compared to 16 years ago. Simple things like not being able to hold an altitude or read a map, and this was departing Wellington International in NZ!! It just seems that these little things no longer matter because everyone sees themselves in a shiny jet and lets the autopilot do it all.
Attitude plays a huge part and preparing to go through some hard yards, something that is very much missing these days. I was fortunate to have 2 months recently in a king air on air ambo missions. Did I learn lots, hell yes! Being thrown around at night in 60kts winds, trying to plan my descent, reading star charts and no auto pilot soon made me realise that stuff can go wrong very quickly. 180kts taught me to always be 10mins ahead. All of this happening while I had a prem baby in the back. Then came the landing. Only then did I realise the value of flying the 152 on 1 wheel down the centreline of the runway to come to terms with a crosswind landing. My instructor made me do this every time there was a strong crosswind.
He also told me that "the plane doesn't know how big it is, how wet it is, how dark it is or even how many engines it has...it is just an airframe. As a pilot we get the plane to do what we want it to. If it doesn't do what we want it to then we are doing something wrong, so fix it."
Maybe I view this stuff a bit differently because I have a bit of life experience (Spent 7 years in the Police and have had my fair share of undie sucking moments) To me there just seems to be a lack of common sense.
I know in the last year I have put in a huge effort to get into the position I am in now.
Last edited by pineappledaz; 14th Jul 2014 at 06:08.
Back in my day, a bag of lollies cost 5 cents, fuel was 63cents a litre and all fresh CPLs knew how to fly...
Question to the older blokes, do you think your superiors thought you were just as good as them? Doubt it.
Not saying there isn't a decline, however there might be a bit of poetic license going on here.
Pineapple, what sort of king air does 180kts?
j3
Question to the older blokes, do you think your superiors thought you were just as good as them? Doubt it.
Not saying there isn't a decline, however there might be a bit of poetic license going on here.
Pineapple, what sort of king air does 180kts?
j3
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Another train of thought.
Perhaps these newbies, like myself, were told that they were doing an exceptional job by their very inexperienced instructors, who were only parroting the crap from their twit of a chief pilot.
"Get them in, rebook them, give them a different instructor every day, it doesn't matter as long as they keep paying."
It's not their fault, each person is only equipped with the knowledge they have been taught, and paid to be taught I might add. Unfortunately there are still some schools that care only about the bottom line, and not the product they are churning out.
"Offer them instructing work, use them for as long as they will put up with not being paid, and then replace them."
This is not the formulae for training quality, competent pilots. One may have 1000 hours, but it is 1000 hours of regurgitating the same crap you were taught by said twit. It's not your fault either, you are being told you're doing the right thing, and you've never flown anywhere else so what would you know?
I can't offer a solution. I got my CPL and then went elsewhere to learn how to really fly properly. It's a bloody expensive lesson to learn. But who out there has never been ripped off or not gotten what they have paid for?
Probably none of us. As the saying goes, that's aviation.
Perhaps these newbies, like myself, were told that they were doing an exceptional job by their very inexperienced instructors, who were only parroting the crap from their twit of a chief pilot.
"Get them in, rebook them, give them a different instructor every day, it doesn't matter as long as they keep paying."
It's not their fault, each person is only equipped with the knowledge they have been taught, and paid to be taught I might add. Unfortunately there are still some schools that care only about the bottom line, and not the product they are churning out.
"Offer them instructing work, use them for as long as they will put up with not being paid, and then replace them."
This is not the formulae for training quality, competent pilots. One may have 1000 hours, but it is 1000 hours of regurgitating the same crap you were taught by said twit. It's not your fault either, you are being told you're doing the right thing, and you've never flown anywhere else so what would you know?
I can't offer a solution. I got my CPL and then went elsewhere to learn how to really fly properly. It's a bloody expensive lesson to learn. But who out there has never been ripped off or not gotten what they have paid for?
Probably none of us. As the saying goes, that's aviation.
Eclan - I disagree with your comment.
Yes, going 70nm out of the way to dodge thunderstorms, especially during the build-up or The Wet, does happen (often).
Yes, FZL can be below LSALT in Australia. Within the past month, I canned an IFR flight heading West from Orange, FZL at 5700, LSALT at 6100. (Couldn't go VFR, viz was 250m, cloud base 300 feet). I'm told also happens in Tassie / Vic (particularly in winter) but I have little experience there.
Mick - are you sure this isn't "Back When I Was a Boy, everything was rosy...?"
Yes, going 70nm out of the way to dodge thunderstorms, especially during the build-up or The Wet, does happen (often).
Yes, FZL can be below LSALT in Australia. Within the past month, I canned an IFR flight heading West from Orange, FZL at 5700, LSALT at 6100. (Couldn't go VFR, viz was 250m, cloud base 300 feet). I'm told also happens in Tassie / Vic (particularly in winter) but I have little experience there.
Mick - are you sure this isn't "Back When I Was a Boy, everything was rosy...?"
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Mick touched on it before, but I can tell you for certain that Botswana has 50hrs ICUS.
That terrain there is perfectly flat with weather conditions very similar to northern aussie.
You are being taught a totally different style of flying than what you are used to from flight school. In fact, it involves throwing some of the stuff you learnt there out the window.
By the end of those 50hrs you are very proficient at what you are doing and are expected to be able to navigate around by terrain features with a failed GPS, landing with tailwinds, thunderstorm navigation, traffic and bird awareness (There is roughly 70 aircraft operating to an area within 80nm of the main airport) and general bush flying techniques.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with 50hrs ICUS. Can be done easily in 3 weeks.
That terrain there is perfectly flat with weather conditions very similar to northern aussie.
You are being taught a totally different style of flying than what you are used to from flight school. In fact, it involves throwing some of the stuff you learnt there out the window.
By the end of those 50hrs you are very proficient at what you are doing and are expected to be able to navigate around by terrain features with a failed GPS, landing with tailwinds, thunderstorm navigation, traffic and bird awareness (There is roughly 70 aircraft operating to an area within 80nm of the main airport) and general bush flying techniques.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with 50hrs ICUS. Can be done easily in 3 weeks.
A King Air descending does a little more than 180kts. More like about 280-300kts.
morno
morno
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Outnabout, you could be right, but when I was a boy my instructor wouldn't let me get away with diddly squat and said the standards are set in black and white always aim to make these standards your minim you will accept.
As a professional it is up to all of us in this industry to strive for the safest we can be. It's called pride. It's starts at the bottom and goes all the way to highest level of management. I don't want to sound like CASA but I do think standards are slipping, and by the way they can take a bit of the blame here.
I started this link to open a discussion that unless we start looking at fixing a decline in quality of training, that bad habits will get worse and safety will decline. The amount of agreement in just the few short posts here shows that it isn't just me or a dozen other operators that I talk to. It is real and is a big worry.
Discussions with CASA over the past couple of years on this point, they acknowledge to me that they are concerned. But in typical CASA form increased the funding to the safety advisers and produced a DVD on hints in flying outback. No talk of increasing audits, or inspections on training orgs or those that sign these newbies off, well not to my knowledge.
Don't get me wrong when I was a boy, I did make my fair share mistakes, and had a fair few butt pucker moments. Under that all it was thanks to my instructor for giving me basic good stick and rudder and navigation skills that got me home safe and sound and no one ever knew there was a problem.
30 odd years later when ever I fly his voice is still in my head running through stuff. I am sure any pilot of an older vintage knows what I am talking about. I am not sure this is happening now as generally they all seem to sitting there fat , dumb and happy. As when we put some simulated pressure on newbies in ICUS generally the first thing that fails is aviate.
I urge all newbies to question the quality of their training, talk to other higher timed pilots, ask advice. You are spending your money with these people ask them, what they have to offer you, don't just accept they know it all. As with any purchase make sure you are getting what you pay for. Ask how much experience the instructor has and ask to see his/her logbook.
On a personal improvement note, be familiar with the minim standards you must meet to become a CPL, and make them your personal minimums. Push your comfort zone occasionally switch off the GPS,IPAD Oz runways and navigate like your flight test, it's not that hard VFR. It only becomes hard if you let those skills erode. Remember always keep a plan B ticking over, just in case.
MS
As a professional it is up to all of us in this industry to strive for the safest we can be. It's called pride. It's starts at the bottom and goes all the way to highest level of management. I don't want to sound like CASA but I do think standards are slipping, and by the way they can take a bit of the blame here.
I started this link to open a discussion that unless we start looking at fixing a decline in quality of training, that bad habits will get worse and safety will decline. The amount of agreement in just the few short posts here shows that it isn't just me or a dozen other operators that I talk to. It is real and is a big worry.
Discussions with CASA over the past couple of years on this point, they acknowledge to me that they are concerned. But in typical CASA form increased the funding to the safety advisers and produced a DVD on hints in flying outback. No talk of increasing audits, or inspections on training orgs or those that sign these newbies off, well not to my knowledge.
Don't get me wrong when I was a boy, I did make my fair share mistakes, and had a fair few butt pucker moments. Under that all it was thanks to my instructor for giving me basic good stick and rudder and navigation skills that got me home safe and sound and no one ever knew there was a problem.
30 odd years later when ever I fly his voice is still in my head running through stuff. I am sure any pilot of an older vintage knows what I am talking about. I am not sure this is happening now as generally they all seem to sitting there fat , dumb and happy. As when we put some simulated pressure on newbies in ICUS generally the first thing that fails is aviate.
I urge all newbies to question the quality of their training, talk to other higher timed pilots, ask advice. You are spending your money with these people ask them, what they have to offer you, don't just accept they know it all. As with any purchase make sure you are getting what you pay for. Ask how much experience the instructor has and ask to see his/her logbook.
On a personal improvement note, be familiar with the minim standards you must meet to become a CPL, and make them your personal minimums. Push your comfort zone occasionally switch off the GPS,IPAD Oz runways and navigate like your flight test, it's not that hard VFR. It only becomes hard if you let those skills erode. Remember always keep a plan B ticking over, just in case.
MS
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The best intructors that I had in GA was a crusty old pr!ck named Col Griffin and my first boss, Bob Courtenay.
The first was an exWW2 Mosquito pilot who went to ANA and retired from the airline with 23,000 hrs of which 32 hrs were in single engined aircraft. He then did a Gr 3 IR and finished his career as a SE instructor. Col instructed me for some of my UPPL and also my CPL. He could be a rather blunt chap at times, he certainly didn't mince words but if you got over yourself and listened to what he was saying then you learned. The most valuable thing that I learned from him was that you needed a certain attitude towards your flying. Years later, I ran into him and told him with some pride that I was working as a B747 FO. He said to me, "Anthill, I knew you could do it because you are a survivor". He would know. It is the most flattering thing anyone has ever said to me.
Bob Courtenay was my first Boss. From Day 1 of his employ, he furthered the concept of having an 'attitude' towards your work and in a commercial sense. On my first day, I showed at the appointed time of 0800. He said that this made me neither late nor on-time- he expected that I would not ever be late for work and that the only way not to be late was to be early! He also used to knock back charter work if he couldn't do the job to 100% of the clients expectations. For example, if the charter needed to depart at 1400 and was to use an aircraft that was on another job arriving back at, say, 1200. He would say "can't do it". This ensured an optimum level of reliability to clients. It was notable that he had the only pure charter and air work business at MB; all of the other companies that did charter were also flying schools or RPT operators.
The key word here is "attitude". An instructor can try to impart the nuts and bolt of technique. A true mentor will go beyond that and show you the way to approach something. A mentor will cause you to change your outlook and perception in a constructive and everlasting way.
The first was an exWW2 Mosquito pilot who went to ANA and retired from the airline with 23,000 hrs of which 32 hrs were in single engined aircraft. He then did a Gr 3 IR and finished his career as a SE instructor. Col instructed me for some of my UPPL and also my CPL. He could be a rather blunt chap at times, he certainly didn't mince words but if you got over yourself and listened to what he was saying then you learned. The most valuable thing that I learned from him was that you needed a certain attitude towards your flying. Years later, I ran into him and told him with some pride that I was working as a B747 FO. He said to me, "Anthill, I knew you could do it because you are a survivor". He would know. It is the most flattering thing anyone has ever said to me.
Bob Courtenay was my first Boss. From Day 1 of his employ, he furthered the concept of having an 'attitude' towards your work and in a commercial sense. On my first day, I showed at the appointed time of 0800. He said that this made me neither late nor on-time- he expected that I would not ever be late for work and that the only way not to be late was to be early! He also used to knock back charter work if he couldn't do the job to 100% of the clients expectations. For example, if the charter needed to depart at 1400 and was to use an aircraft that was on another job arriving back at, say, 1200. He would say "can't do it". This ensured an optimum level of reliability to clients. It was notable that he had the only pure charter and air work business at MB; all of the other companies that did charter were also flying schools or RPT operators.
The key word here is "attitude". An instructor can try to impart the nuts and bolt of technique. A true mentor will go beyond that and show you the way to approach something. A mentor will cause you to change your outlook and perception in a constructive and everlasting way.
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J3,
Care to elaborate on your comment..I clearly remember seeing 180 on the ASI.
I clearly remember receiving an instruction to slow to 170kts on that trip..why is this so difficult to understand?
The point of the comment was 180kts is a
lot faster than 60-70kts of a typical training aircraft.
Like I was saying..attitude.
Care to elaborate on your comment..I clearly remember seeing 180 on the ASI.
I clearly remember receiving an instruction to slow to 170kts on that trip..why is this so difficult to understand?
The point of the comment was 180kts is a
lot faster than 60-70kts of a typical training aircraft.Like I was saying..attitude.
Pineapple,
It is difficult to understand because you would be flying a Kingair ridiculously slowly if descending at 180kts. Most turboprops are descended at Vmo minus 10-15 depending upon your operation at a 3:1 profile. So the only reason to descend that slowly would be forescast/actual turbulence. Thats why I was very curious.
I know you have a previous career, but remember you seem to be just starting off in this one, don't be too quick to judge people, you don't know if they are above or below you on the ladder.
j3
It is difficult to understand because you would be flying a Kingair ridiculously slowly if descending at 180kts. Most turboprops are descended at Vmo minus 10-15 depending upon your operation at a 3:1 profile. So the only reason to descend that slowly would be forescast/actual turbulence. Thats why I was very curious.
I know you have a previous career, but remember you seem to be just starting off in this one, don't be too quick to judge people, you don't know if they are above or below you on the ladder.
j3