QF the Best Of the Best
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Because the Qantas pilot has been overpaid for years, and the world has moved on.
Next thing you know scabby wabby little kiwi pilot is whinging and complaining about not getting paid the same as the Qantas pilot, gets sacked because he's a whinging, complaining, scabby, wabby little kiwi whinger and ends up on our dole, cest la vie old son eh
Could someone please explain to me why a QF pilot should at the end of the day earn more than an equivalent pilot at another carrier? eg Air Asia / Jetstar / Tiger
A company may value its workforce and want to keep them, in which case it makes it attractive to stay employed with them by providing good pay and benefits.
Companies such as these can be selective about who they employ and also enjoy the benefits of a stable motivated workforce.
Other companies simply pay the minimum they can get away with and accept a high staff turnover, reasoning that it costs less to keep training new people rather than pay enough to make them want to stay around.
A certain amount of turnover may be desirable because if no one ever left then pay and conditions are likely to be excessively generous, and people leaving allows for advancement for those staying.
Unions may also get a strangle hold on a company enabling them to demand pay and conditions far in excess of the industry standard. Survivable when all your competitiors are in the same boat however it comes unstuck when you have non union competition....
Companies such as these can be selective about who they employ and also enjoy the benefits of a stable motivated workforce.
Other companies simply pay the minimum they can get away with and accept a high staff turnover, reasoning that it costs less to keep training new people rather than pay enough to make them want to stay around.
A certain amount of turnover may be desirable because if no one ever left then pay and conditions are likely to be excessively generous, and people leaving allows for advancement for those staying.
Unions may also get a strangle hold on a company enabling them to demand pay and conditions far in excess of the industry standard. Survivable when all your competitiors are in the same boat however it comes unstuck when you have non union competition....
I love pilot logic. Consider those on better T&Cs overpaid rather than consider those on lesser conditions underpaid. 
And we wonder why bean counters conditions improve and pilots conditions are reducing.
the Don
And we wonder why bean counters conditions improve and pilots conditions are reducing.
the Don
I love pilot logic. Consider those on better T&Cs overpaid rather than consider those on lesser conditions underpaid.
Im not in QF so this isn't driven by my HUGE QF ego.
First point is that I don't think QF pilots start off as being any better than anyone else, they achieve a higher standard through experience and culture.
Companies who want the best employees, amongst other things offer more attractive packages. (Qantas)
QF use to be the employer of choice for a large percentage of pilots and other employee groups.
Today, well they are a **** employer, they do not appear to seek quality any more, they simply seek to find the cheapest available pilots and other employees, (welcome Bogan Air)
The old days it was a long hard road to the top in QF but when you got there you could be fairly certain that your training was excellent, the culture was one of safety, and you certainly had experience. (purely through time with the company)
Compare that with Bogan Air, they will employ any one who comes along with $100k in daddies pocket, hours mean nothing, in fact you are of a higher standard if you are inexperienced apparently. Commands and progression can be quick if your prepared to forget about safety and take less money.
I feel safe in a QF aircraft and I am more than happy to pay for it, even as a pilot I have second thoughts about hopping on a Bogan Air flight, and i am serious that I have serious concerns. I justify it in my own mind by saying they haven't buried one yet, and whats the chance they will do it tonight?
I will only travel with them if there is no other option and unfortunately that has been the case from Darwin (no options) heading north, fortunately Air Asia and soon to be Cebupacificair are options which I take in preference.
The old saying you pay peanuts...............................
First point is that I don't think QF pilots start off as being any better than anyone else, they achieve a higher standard through experience and culture.
Companies who want the best employees, amongst other things offer more attractive packages. (Qantas)
QF use to be the employer of choice for a large percentage of pilots and other employee groups.
Today, well they are a **** employer, they do not appear to seek quality any more, they simply seek to find the cheapest available pilots and other employees, (welcome Bogan Air)
The old days it was a long hard road to the top in QF but when you got there you could be fairly certain that your training was excellent, the culture was one of safety, and you certainly had experience. (purely through time with the company)
Compare that with Bogan Air, they will employ any one who comes along with $100k in daddies pocket, hours mean nothing, in fact you are of a higher standard if you are inexperienced apparently. Commands and progression can be quick if your prepared to forget about safety and take less money.
I feel safe in a QF aircraft and I am more than happy to pay for it, even as a pilot I have second thoughts about hopping on a Bogan Air flight, and i am serious that I have serious concerns. I justify it in my own mind by saying they haven't buried one yet, and whats the chance they will do it tonight?
I will only travel with them if there is no other option and unfortunately that has been the case from Darwin (no options) heading north, fortunately Air Asia and soon to be Cebupacificair are options which I take in preference.
The old saying you pay peanuts...............................
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RENURP,
Are you taking the 'p*ss', you would select Air Asia over Jetstar because you will feel safer on them.... bah haa haa
, I suggest you google Air Asia Runway excursions and you will find many over the past couple of years. If the only criteria you are using to judge if an airline is safe is how much they pay their staff then Air Asia can't be 'safer'.
Are you taking the 'p*ss', you would select Air Asia over Jetstar because you will feel safer on them.... bah haa haa
, I suggest you google Air Asia Runway excursions and you will find many over the past couple of years. If the only criteria you are using to judge if an airline is safe is how much they pay their staff then Air Asia can't be 'safer'.
Knowing some of the things that have gone on in Jetstar Ops and Safety in the past, I wouldn't let any of my family fly on them either.
In fact, I know personally a former Jetstar pilot who won't travel on them because of things he saw while working there.
I trust 90% of the pilots there, but unfortunately that's not enough in my opinion.
morno
In fact, I know personally a former Jetstar pilot who won't travel on them because of things he saw while working there.
I trust 90% of the pilots there, but unfortunately that's not enough in my opinion.
morno
AH,
You may like to google Qantas and runway excursions? There are a couple of them as well, are you saying we should feel safer on Bogan Air than Qantas Bah Haa HAA
Bogan Air only made the papers last week for departing at an intersection after calculating their performance based on full length. Its only a matter of time.
Yes I would and do travel Air asia ahead of Bogan Air.
You may like to google Qantas and runway excursions? There are a couple of them as well, are you saying we should feel safer on Bogan Air than Qantas Bah Haa HAA
Bogan Air only made the papers last week for departing at an intersection after calculating their performance based on full length. Its only a matter of time.
Yes I would and do travel Air asia ahead of Bogan Air.
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Just chucking one in, but from some years of observation, I'd have thought that in most industries, someone with direct responsibility for a pretty expensive bit of plant & equipment, 8-20 direct reports and 150-500 customers, requiring a fairly high degree of technical knowledge, is going to (should) get paid fairly well.
Maybe a related question might be,
Do the qf senior managers run the company more efficiently? Is it more difficult to run the particular qantas company? Are their working conditions harder?
Maybe a related question might be,
Could someone please explain to me why a QF senior manager should at the end of the day earn more than an equivalent senior manager at another carrier?
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Do the qf senior managers run the company more efficiently? Is it more difficult to run the particular qantas company? Are their working conditions harder?
But they do bring past performance figures / annual results etc to the 'bargaining' table.
What do (can) pilots bring to their negotiation?
A safe record? Compared to everyone else who is safe these days of computerised flight.
(rennurp I'm not aware of your concerns re bogan air - nice name for them though!)
Better on time performance? Less fuel bill?
Last edited by novice110; 29th Jun 2011 at 07:30.
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I know personally a former Jetstar pilot who won't travel on them because of things he saw while working there.
I wouldn't travel on them even if I did work for them!!
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But they do bring past performance figures / annual results etc to the 'bargaining' table.
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Novice:
The aforementioned posts should answer the vast majority of your questions.
In relation to pilots bringing tangible things to the bargaining table:
I think you'll find that whilst there is little in terms of hard numbers, the company are very well aware of the fact that pilots can make or break company profits on a daily basis. Little day-to-day operational decisions like fuel uplift, track shortening, cost index, optimum level cruise (I could literally go on for hours here) etc, can save an airline millions every year. This obviously doesn't just effect Qantas, but all airlines. It is, however, just another thing that Qantas pilots bring to the table come EBA negotiation time.
Further to some of what the others have written:
It's also important to remember the environment in which the original EBAs were signed. For example the original Qantas LH & SH EBAs were in place WELL before the appearance of Virgin, Jetstar/Impulse or Tiger. These EBAs were signed under far more favourable times for pilot hiring. Qantas pilots could demand what they felt they deserved. In standing with global traditions, Australian pilot EBAs tend to generally improve at EBA time by roughly national CPI. This has been the case with Qantas LH & SH EBAs.
Hope this clears things up for you.
The aforementioned posts should answer the vast majority of your questions.
In relation to pilots bringing tangible things to the bargaining table:
I think you'll find that whilst there is little in terms of hard numbers, the company are very well aware of the fact that pilots can make or break company profits on a daily basis. Little day-to-day operational decisions like fuel uplift, track shortening, cost index, optimum level cruise (I could literally go on for hours here) etc, can save an airline millions every year. This obviously doesn't just effect Qantas, but all airlines. It is, however, just another thing that Qantas pilots bring to the table come EBA negotiation time.
Further to some of what the others have written:
It's also important to remember the environment in which the original EBAs were signed. For example the original Qantas LH & SH EBAs were in place WELL before the appearance of Virgin, Jetstar/Impulse or Tiger. These EBAs were signed under far more favourable times for pilot hiring. Qantas pilots could demand what they felt they deserved. In standing with global traditions, Australian pilot EBAs tend to generally improve at EBA time by roughly national CPI. This has been the case with Qantas LH & SH EBAs.
Hope this clears things up for you.
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OhForSure
Thanks for the reply.
It's a pity that there aren't more solid facts on the cost savings you give.
Although the techniques you have mentioned to 'make or break the airline' could be seen as just normal practices could they not?
Why would a pilot not choose an optimul altitude? Is it true the computers will tell you this anyway? (not having a shot at the skill involved in flying an aircraft)
But what is the difference in pilot A following standard procedure and pilot B also following standard procedure ? Are there secret better procedures ?
Thanks for the reply.
It's a pity that there aren't more solid facts on the cost savings you give.
Although the techniques you have mentioned to 'make or break the airline' could be seen as just normal practices could they not?
Why would a pilot not choose an optimul altitude? Is it true the computers will tell you this anyway? (not having a shot at the skill involved in flying an aircraft)
But what is the difference in pilot A following standard procedure and pilot B also following standard procedure ? Are there secret better procedures ?
Nunc est bibendum
An FMC tells you the optimum altitude based on aircraft weight only. Some newer generation FMCs also include forecast winds and will recommend an earlier climb to take advantage of weaker headwinds or stronger tailwinds. They do NOT take into consideration actual conditions unless you tell them what they are. They do NOT take into account traffic issues and going up early to ensure that you can hold your optimum altitude for the remainder of the flight. They do not take into account trading off time/ fuel for schedule and they do not take into account the ride or passenger service requirements.
So I can fly the program as handed down and drop fuel all flight or I can use my experience- something J* management reckons isn't that important- and save hundreds of kgs by getting my altitude early and holding it longer. I can ensure the pax get a smooth ride for the meal service before dropping down out of the winds to ensure an on time arrival or minimising a delay.
Smart pilot managers know that we do all this and don't treat us like idiots when it comes to the savings that actively engaged pilots can bring to the table. Idiotic pilot managers think that the computer tells you all you need to know.
So I can fly the program as handed down and drop fuel all flight or I can use my experience- something J* management reckons isn't that important- and save hundreds of kgs by getting my altitude early and holding it longer. I can ensure the pax get a smooth ride for the meal service before dropping down out of the winds to ensure an on time arrival or minimising a delay.
Smart pilot managers know that we do all this and don't treat us like idiots when it comes to the savings that actively engaged pilots can bring to the table. Idiotic pilot managers think that the computer tells you all you need to know.
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Rennurp,
You are a B717 captain based in Darwin with Cobham.
1. I suggest you read up on the stick shake history / heavy landings of a couple of your mates before bagging another company.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...064_Prelim.pdf
How Qantaslink bent a jet with a 3.6g hard landing | Plane Talking
Not to mention the unreported head-on near-miss between two B717 at PBO- but that would spoil a good yarn.....Napoleon was not happy.
2. Don't bite the hand that feeds you via a contract that is shortly up for negotiation.
You are a B717 captain based in Darwin with Cobham.
1. I suggest you read up on the stick shake history / heavy landings of a couple of your mates before bagging another company.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...064_Prelim.pdf
How Qantaslink bent a jet with a 3.6g hard landing | Plane Talking
Not to mention the unreported head-on near-miss between two B717 at PBO- but that would spoil a good yarn.....Napoleon was not happy.
2. Don't bite the hand that feeds you via a contract that is shortly up for negotiation.
Last edited by drop bear ten; 3rd Jul 2011 at 01:57.
I know who I work for, but thanks for the reminder!
I am still entitled to an opinion, and my opinion is that QF pilots will generally achieve a higher standard due to culture, time in the S/O position and RHS learning from experienced pilots. They probably are no better when they started but good experience is a wonderful thing.
As for Bogan Air, they are a pox on the aviation industry, both from a pilots point of view and a customers.
As for incidents, all companies have them, some are worse than others. I accept the company I work for is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Lucky for us the ex military types have moved on and they have been replaced by some capable people.
I am still entitled to an opinion, and my opinion is that QF pilots will generally achieve a higher standard due to culture, time in the S/O position and RHS learning from experienced pilots. They probably are no better when they started but good experience is a wonderful thing.
As for Bogan Air, they are a pox on the aviation industry, both from a pilots point of view and a customers.
As for incidents, all companies have them, some are worse than others. I accept the company I work for is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Lucky for us the ex military types have moved on and they have been replaced by some capable people.
Last edited by RENURPP; 3rd Jul 2011 at 02:10.
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Its simple....Qantas Pilots get paid more money becauase they are the best Pilots in the world!!!!!
If you dont believe me, just asked one and they will tell you how good they are..
If you dont believe me, just asked one and they will tell you how good they are..