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Nordic Forum It smells a bit of snow and ice and big hairy vikings chasing lusty maidens around after lots of mjød and loud partying. Forum languages are Svenska, Dansk, Norsk & English.


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Old 4th Oct 2012, 13:03   #101 (permalink)
 
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berserker - Not every country has as good social services / unemployment benefits as Norway or Scandinavia!

So sometimes turning down a job in one of those Big Shiny Jets, is not always the best option!

Not really understanding your view, would like to see who have turned down a job with shitty conditions, with low experience!
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Old 4th Oct 2012, 18:01   #102 (permalink)
 
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Christ.. this is really happening way too fast. You need to look to most of the business when it comes to T&Cs and not only to Ryanair (which I expect you were referring to..). Of course it's not like the good old days any more, but this expansion of Norwegian has to be stopped when it's on the basis of contracts with contract agencies. NPF needs to stop this right now. They accepted new terms on the basis of trust, but management obviously regards those contractual obligations as something to legally circumvent. Don't listen to them when they say it's going to destroy the company. It isn't. If Bjørn Kjos throws his chair and says he will sell the company, so what? Does it matter if it is him or any other owner on the top as long as you have respectable T&Cs? It will halter expansion, since expansion in this climate requires lower prices, but so what? It's better to sit in a company an extra five years as a first officer when it's on a sound basis and healthy employment standards than to be a captain of a shipwreck going down. If nothing is done this will destroy all our futures. And it's happening right now. Contracting agencies as a industry standard coupled with the new subpart Q legislation is in my opinion a severe safety risk, and an unscientific working model based only to serve stock owners holding airline stocks. When this happens I will not only end my career as a professional pilot, I will stop flying altogether until this business is based on sound principles again.
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Old 4th Oct 2012, 18:25   #103 (permalink)
 
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I am curious on one thing, how can a pilot be contracted with ONE company only?

I thought that there was some legislation to be legally self-employed you would have to work for several different contractors, not just one sole company, as this would put you in a position an an employee!

I am curious how the airlines have been able to circumvent this regulation?


As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:

Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:

Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?



HM Revenue & Customs: Employment status


I know Norway have similar legislation.

I guess the ONLY ones who can stop this, is the local governments, can put a STOP to the contracting of pilots, as they do NOT meet the criteria to be Self-Employed!

The companies are doing this to circumvent huge local taxes!

Last edited by truckflyer; 4th Oct 2012 at 18:31.
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Old 5th Oct 2012, 09:00   #104 (permalink)
 
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"and hopefully be able to progress with our career in a company with better conditions in the future!"

This is cannibalism...As I said in a previous post, I think it`s VERY inportant that the Unions for the Majors stop these people.

If you choose the " low-cost" route, always " low-cost".
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Old 5th Oct 2012, 09:22   #105 (permalink)
 
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"and hopefully be able to progress with our career in a company with better conditions in the future!"

The route used to be this way and then get a foot in to DY or SK. But now that route leads to sub-RYR standards
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Old 5th Oct 2012, 10:19   #106 (permalink)
 
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This will sort itself out. The lowcosts are killing the majors, or bringing them down to their level. So the irony is - you are killing the very companies you hope to progress to.
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Old 6th Oct 2012, 08:22   #107 (permalink)
 
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Picmas, although I principally agree with you I find your argument fundamentally flawed. It is not reasonable to expect that a new pilot will take a stand against the current system refusing to buy a type rating in order to support the traditional way of progressing. Your opinion that pilots should avoid buying a rating and doing it the "old fashioned" way is simply wishful thinking. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first one to sign up should this be possible to implement. For this to happen ALL pilots need to stand together and refuse the current system. Again, this is an utopia and will simply not happen. I do admire you and your likes though who have managed to climb the ladder without buying your way into the industry! Unfortunately you are an ever shrinking minority...

I believe the problem not to be the pilots as such but rather the structure in Europe and the qualifications needed to fly one of those shiny jets. Fact is that an MPL student with 200h (of which most is sim time) is allowed to fly a B737/A320 straight out of school. Is this possible in the states? No it is not. The EASA/JAR etc is a deeply corrupt system enabling air carriers to exploit pilots to the very fullest. Until we get LEGAL REQUIREMENTS that value ACTUAL FLIGHT EXPERIENCE we are all more or less fukced. I find the debate "I detest you for buying yourself into the industry vs I need to feed my family and can't get a decent job if I don't buy a rating" to be utterly pointless and contra productive. The cuture/system defines the framework of what your "career ladder" will look like. Let's look at the states and more particular at Southwest. Undoubtedly the most successful low cost carrier in the world and a true example of a company caring for its employees. They require some 1000h PIC before even being eligible to apply for an F/O position. This true for most (if not all) carriers in the US. I similar system in Europe would completely annihilate the current problem with rating inflation.

So how do we achieve this? We wait. The governing factor is the passengers and their willingness to pay a decent amount of money for their ticket. Until we have a really deadly crash similar to Colgan air Colgan Air Flight 3407 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia nothing will happen. People need to pay with their lives in order for change to occur. This is also true regarding to the new FTL regulations (Which are of course indirectly made by the companies).

To sum up: Until we get a proper frame work based on legal regulations young guys and gals will continue to do what it takes to get a job. This includes getting exploited by the companies to the very fullest...
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Old 6th Oct 2012, 08:26   #108 (permalink)
 
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I agree 100% with PicMas
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Old 6th Oct 2012, 08:41   #109 (permalink)
 
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I also agree with LeftHeadingNorth.

Southwest is a very well driven Low-Cost airline, that takes care of their employees.
Big differences between Low-Cost
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Old 6th Oct 2012, 09:30   #110 (permalink)
 
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Good to hear some sense here. Stop quarreling. As noted earlier, people willing to work in a cockpit for far less than what is industry standard have always been here. Always. They have just never had the opportunity to enter into service based on their willingness to work for lesser pay than their competition.
As was touched upon earlier "the old fashioned way" stopped this from happening. In other words they are not the problem. They are a symptom of the problem we're all facing.

It's not all about supply and demand either. Of course we're too many pilots, but that wouldn't be a big problems if we had effective unions. Then only the best of applicants would get any given job when the number of applicants rises. When you have an excess supply of pilots and you take away unions to open up for pilots bidding below each other of course you will have a downward spiral.

What is needed right (!) now is that NPF goes on a huge strike. The greater part of Norwegian is still organised in unions, and NPF could pressure Norwegian enough to make sure employees were not transferred to NLH. Norwegians margins are extremely thin (earnings less than 1% of total revenue) and management can't afford a stop of cashflow for long. This gives NPF leverage, and should be used to stop this development as soon as possible. If NPF waits too long the chance will be gone, with a greater amount of pilots now in an organisation that gives no power to unions. Then the organisation will look just like Ryanair. Pressure NPF, don't go after each others throats. Learn from what happened in Ryanair before it's too late.

Last edited by KristianNorway; 6th Oct 2012 at 10:03.
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Old 6th Oct 2012, 09:59   #111 (permalink)
 
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LeftHeadingNorth is spot on! There are 3 issues in European aviation that need to be delt with, the way I see things.. First of all, there is a great need for better legislation from EASA on several matters (SSTRs, P2F, FTLs). Without legislation, the MOLs and BKs of the industry can basically say "bend over" to fly for us. Secondly, there is no real way for newbies to gain real world hands on experience in Europe. There are practically no small operators who employ no-timers, as well there are almost no flightschools for the instructor route. Compared to the US anyhow. Third, we, the pilots with descent jobs and are "protected" by ECA, iFALPA etc, need to put more pressure on the EASA and make them change their legislations for the better. A downward spiral indeed, and newbies, with a push from their flightschools, defend buying into commercial aviation with false information. You can't really fault them because they know no better and are clearly misguided. At the same time, it is the practise of buying a TR and/or hours commercially, is largely to blame. Stand together indeed, and we were so close last spring. There were approximately 38000 unionized pilots willing to back NPF for the greater benefit in the long term, but NPF blew it. When the next confrontation comes knocking, I wouldn't be surpised if they won't get the same benefit.
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Old 6th Oct 2012, 16:46   #112 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truckflyer View Post
Jeg kjenner mange RYR flygere som vet akkurat hva de kom til, liten erfaring og fikk en god utdannelse hos RYR, og om sommeren saa er lonna noksaa god ogsaa! De fleste drar etter 2 - 3 aar videre til bedre selskap - proven concept!
På tide å få bort skylappene! Det er jo nettopp dette som ødelegger de "bedre"!
For å klare å konkurrere må også "major's" sette ned lønninger og ansette på kontrakt og snart finnes det ingen veier til "bedre selskap".

"Proven cocept" sier du - ikke nå lenger, sier jeg... hvorfor?
Se på FR vs DY. Tidligere betalte man seg inn i FR for å stikke til DY etter noen år. Fra å faktisk "få en jobb" i DY måtte man der også begynne å betale seg inn. Nå er ikke det nok og DY må ansette på kontakter med elendige vilkår. Flere fra FR har sagt nei til DYs dårlige betingelser i det siste, og må være i FR enn så lenge.
Denne tankegangen har altså klart å ødelegge vilkårene i DY. Og flere selskaper kommer etter...

PS, at "lønnen i FR er nokså god på sommeren"; var det et forsøk på å være morsom, eller er holdningene virkelig på et slikt lavmål?

Hilsen meg
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Old 6th Oct 2012, 22:08   #113 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
This will sort itself out. The lowcosts are killing the majors, or bringing them down to their level. So the irony is - you are killing the very companies you hope to progress to.
I take my hat off for the best comment on PPRuNe for a long time.
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Old 7th Oct 2012, 14:06   #114 (permalink)
 
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Angry

Man, what a shit load of crock

Either You, "Truckdriver" are very young (hope for your sake that is the reason) or very ignorant!
I'm not gonna start writing a long post here, cause it's all been said better by others already. You should take notes from several of them. Here is just one example:
Quote:
På tide å få bort skylappene! Det er jo nettopp dette som ødelegger de "bedre"!
For å klare å konkurrere må også "major's" sette ned lønninger og ansette på kontrakt og snart finnes det ingen veier til "bedre selskap".

Last edited by Hotel Charlie; 7th Oct 2012 at 14:07.
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Old 7th Oct 2012, 14:57   #115 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Why did not the current Pilots look after the conditions for new recruits?
Was it, yes we ok, screw the newcomers mentality

I would like to think it was not like that! You can hardly blame the newcomers for what current pilots accepted!
So what's your personal plan in a few years when I offer to take your job for half the pay? Will you do the right thing and vote with your feet or will you blame me for lowering T&C's?
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Old 7th Oct 2012, 17:35   #116 (permalink)
 
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Thanks guys This has been the most entertaining thread for a long long time... Usually you find that kind of fanaticism only among the worshippers of middle-eastern religions.
I wish you could make the difference in todays aviation industry, but I' am afraid that it is not possible. Not even if you all walk out of your jobs together and hand in hand demanding what you want. It is not likely to happen nor it would change anything.
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Old 7th Oct 2012, 18:14   #117 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
I wish you could make the difference in todays aviation industry, but I' am afraid that it is not possible. Not even if you all walk out of your jobs together and hand in hand demanding what you want. It is not likely to happen nor it would change anything.
.... you really sure about that?
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Old 7th Oct 2012, 19:34   #118 (permalink)
 
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Hotel Charlie, Yes I am sure about my opinion. I see it impossible to unions or individual members to make any change using old fashioned way, "with us or against".
In my opinion, the only chance is if the audience and governing authorities demand for change. The change might be achieved by affecting those people, customers and officials. When they feel loosing something, money for example, they could help steering the ship.
Unfortunately customers value low prices over pilots lifestyle and authorities are greatly affected by industry.
One should never give up, but one should also look for alternative paths instead. Good luck.
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Old 7th Oct 2012, 22:34   #119 (permalink)
 
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Devil

What's your stand on this (brilliant) statement?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PropsAreForBoats
This will sort itself out. The lowcosts are killing the majors, or bringing them down to their level. So the irony is - you are killing the very companies you hope to progress to.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
If you are working for a major, why would you be worried? Unless of cause it is SAS, than I would be very worried, as they prospects are not the best!
How many times do we have to tell you; EVERY airline, will(sooner or later), be forced to lower their T&C in order to be competitive with the LCC.

You talk a lot about being united. How are we supposed to manage that when there's always someone "on the outside" willing to take my job for 1/5 of my pay?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Truckflyer
One comment said NAS, would be crippled by a long strike, so if this is correct, where are they going to get the extra money to improve TCs from?
Raise the prices. Sure, some passengers will stop flying and there might be cutbacks also in DY. That's perfectly fine.
I will not work for peanuts so every kid with a "rich daddy syndrome" can pay their way into the cockpit. You're not entitled to get a job just because you have a pilots license. If 43 is your correct age, I'm sure you remember the 90's, when every other taxi driver in Oslo had a pilots license.

Its been done before. According to the media, Coast Air konkurs - Innenriks - Dagbladet.no this airline went belly-up in 2008 because their pilots didn't want to fly for "nothing". Brilliant decision! Sure, some 50-60 pilots where out of jobs for a while, but it helps keeping the T&C up to an acceptable standard. I'm sure if they've had hundreds of newbies willing to pay2fly, the outcome would have been very different.


So... all the best to the Cabin Crew at Norwegian for the upcoming "dispute" on Wednesday... Hopefully they'll have bigger balls than the spineless pilots

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Old 7th Oct 2012, 23:14   #120 (permalink)
 
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First short for PicMas, you got to love the hypocrites of this world, or has your world changed so much since 2007? Aviation has changed a lot since 2007 for sure.

Air Atlanta Icelandic

Referring to your own interest in Air Atlanta Icelandic, seriously and you come to make judgment on Lo Co Pilots?

Kast ikke stein, dersom du selv sitter i glasshus!

The problem with some of you guys, is that you left the grassroots long time ago, it's a different market there now, and I agree it's not all good!

The fact is that today companies do offer bonds and SSTR, but now they deduct pay for the TR from your pay, vs SSTR the cost works out the same, but when SSTR you are not bonded by the company ! And they pay you full salary!

So what is the best way forward than?

It's not black or white, every company is different! People are not free to choose, I know so many with 2000 - 4000 hours SEP/MEP with no chance of job unless they pay own TR!

The way I see it the Captains have the power to take a stand, Captains can't be easily replaced!
Wil they take a stand to protect their professions TC's?
Risk their career to save the future of aviation?

I don't think so, that's the problem, everybody thinks of themselves!
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