All Hawk T1s will be gone by 31 March 2022
hey were granted their wish and as soon as they did they were in trouble as they couldn’t justify or generate funding as the platform wasn’t in the politicians eye or in an operational Th. GR4 was and the rest is history.
The Harrier had its coffin sealed when it argued to come out of Afghan. If it hadn’t then it would have stood a far greater chance of survival against the GR4 fleet.
https://www.itv.com/news/update/2012...ced-mod-books/
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The former, every. Single. Time. Spade is kind of old hat now and I’d take a much more capable aggressor force.
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I am sorry that is rubbish. It had more to do with the need for force generation . Against a backdrop of a massive black hole in MOD finances, It was either/or and there just weren't the seats or squadrons in Harrier to deliver what the RAF needed to maintain a credible pilot cadre and to build capability for Typhoon. We are also talking about back seat as well as pilots here. It was 5 squadrons versus 2 and the Harrier force just did not have the critical mass. An absolute shame as the GR9 was a great platform as was the FA2 before it. Many things were culled in that era and even the cancellation of every single Defence Contract would not have resolved the issue. I have no idea how Philip Hammond managed to come out a few years later and say he had balanced the books.
https://www.itv.com/news/update/2012...ced-mod-books/
https://www.itv.com/news/update/2012...ced-mod-books/
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Very sad, but inevitable I guess. I well remember my first solo in a Hawk T1 at Valley in 1983. A 500 knot lap of the Isle Of Anglesey, followed by a few circuits.
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negates all the US ITAR constraints surrounding US origin defence articles classed as SME on the USML. Hopefully 2025 onwards will see something a little more threat rep.
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Last edited by DuckDodgers; 20th Feb 2022 at 20:55.
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Is it August for the service delivery to start?
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The PIN said Summer 22 so I went for mid Q3, it could easily be 30 September 🤷🏻♂️ Would make more sense starting 1 Jan 23.
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Ah okay, I didn’t realise it was Summer 22. To be fair, I think it would make more sense to try and bring it in as early as possible as the CAF will be crying out for Red Alr when 100 Sqn close it’s doors.
...
The decision has already been made - but it will not be published during the real Red Air distractions - nor while they are having difficulty finding anyone willing to sign it off.
Answer on a postage stamp - "Extend Hawk 'til Christmas." ... Simples
What could possibly go wrong ?
LFH
...
Out of interest, what’s the latest with the Red Air replacement for the Hawk? Has it been signed off?
Answer on a postage stamp - "Extend Hawk 'til Christmas." ... Simples
What could possibly go wrong ?
LFH
...
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I’m not sure MSASS required a notice? The ASDOT competition was run, it was cancelled and so the MoD effectively extended the previous Draken contract but called it something else? Also, is it that they were able to go to single source contract?
Ah okay, I didn’t realise it was Summer 22. To be fair, I think it would make more sense to try and bring it in as early as possible as the CAF will be crying out for Red Alr when 100 Sqn close it’s doors.
Ah okay, I didn’t realise it was Summer 22. To be fair, I think it would make more sense to try and bring it in as early as possible as the CAF will be crying out for Red Alr when 100 Sqn close it’s doors.
Suspicion breeds confidence
"It was 5 squadrons versus 2 and the Harrier force just did not have the critical mass."
But didn't they chop the number of Tornado Sqns down to two shortly thereafter?
But didn't they chop the number of Tornado Sqns down to two shortly thereafter?
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7 FLS to 5 FLS in 2011,
5 FLS to 4 FLS in 2014,
4 FLS to 3 FLS in 2015,
OCU went in 2017,
3 FLS to 2 FLS in 2018,
2 final FLS disbanded in 2019.
Now lay down Typhoon and F-35 standup alongside that drawdown.
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...
The decision has already been made - but it will not be published during the real Red Air distractions - nor while they are having difficulty finding anyone willing to sign it off.
Answer on a postage stamp - "Extend Hawk 'til Christmas." ... Simples
What could possibly go wrong ?
LFH
...
The decision has already been made - but it will not be published during the real Red Air distractions - nor while they are having difficulty finding anyone willing to sign it off.
Answer on a postage stamp - "Extend Hawk 'til Christmas." ... Simples
What could possibly go wrong ?
LFH
...
Thanks.
Hawk extension
...
Hi Foggy
The extension rationale is the simple answer to the question - "If it was good enough on March 31st - why is it suddenly not good enough on April 1st ?
Arbitrarily shutting down Hawk before a satisfactory replacement (in this case seemingly an outside contractor) has been chosen or possibly even identified (except in these hallowed halls) seems to create an immediate, unnecessary, wholly avoidable and self-inflicted capability gap for several important training requirements - (Red Air, 736, CAS/FAC, CAM etc. )
In other words, an acute attack of "Cart before the 'Orse."
OTOH - it has been suggested via several PPRuNe threads, a couple of SIs and some learned books, that there is an ongoing difficulty with proving Hawk Mk.1 'airworthiness' - which might have accounted for the unseemly haste to junk several dozen (allegedly) perfectly good aeroplanes, before the management got rumbled (again).
A VSO would be required to sign off such an extension, in the same way as for Release to Service and other legal certificates ... and historically, folks can be ordered to sign this sort of thing under threat of sanction.
That legal responsibility has increasingly become a poisoned chalice which goes right to the top, not least because the relevant VSO often isn't in post long enough and has to take some-one else's word for it.
All IMHO, .... LFH
...
Hi Foggy
Morning LFH, what’s the info regarding the decision, has it been signed off? How come they’re having issues finding someone to sign it off - from a DE&S perspective or RAF?
Arbitrarily shutting down Hawk before a satisfactory replacement (in this case seemingly an outside contractor) has been chosen or possibly even identified (except in these hallowed halls) seems to create an immediate, unnecessary, wholly avoidable and self-inflicted capability gap for several important training requirements - (Red Air, 736, CAS/FAC, CAM etc. )
In other words, an acute attack of "Cart before the 'Orse."
OTOH - it has been suggested via several PPRuNe threads, a couple of SIs and some learned books, that there is an ongoing difficulty with proving Hawk Mk.1 'airworthiness' - which might have accounted for the unseemly haste to junk several dozen (allegedly) perfectly good aeroplanes, before the management got rumbled (again).
A VSO would be required to sign off such an extension, in the same way as for Release to Service and other legal certificates ... and historically, folks can be ordered to sign this sort of thing under threat of sanction.
That legal responsibility has increasingly become a poisoned chalice which goes right to the top, not least because the relevant VSO often isn't in post long enough and has to take some-one else's word for it.
All IMHO, .... LFH
...
Tongue in cheek, But...
As the Arrows are continuing to fly the Hawk, and have the Creme de la Creme of the RAF Aircrew & Groundcrew, and the airshow season is looking a bit blank at the moment, could they not step up to the mark and assume the duties from April 1st?
As the Arrows are continuing to fly the Hawk, and have the Creme de la Creme of the RAF Aircrew & Groundcrew, and the airshow season is looking a bit blank at the moment, could they not step up to the mark and assume the duties from April 1st?
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Hi Foggy
A VSO would be required to sign off such an extension, in the same way as for Release to Service and other legal certificates ... and historically, folks can be ordered to sign this sort of thing under threat of sanction.
That legal responsibility has increasingly become a poisoned chalice which goes right to the top, not least because the relevant VSO often isn't in post long enough and has to take some-one else's word for it.
All IMHO, .... LFH
...
Hi Foggy
A VSO would be required to sign off such an extension, in the same way as for Release to Service and other legal certificates ... and historically, folks can be ordered to sign this sort of thing under threat of sanction.
That legal responsibility has increasingly become a poisoned chalice which goes right to the top, not least because the relevant VSO often isn't in post long enough and has to take some-one else's word for it.
All IMHO, .... LFH
...
Interesting views, nonetheless. Thanks.
You’re wrong. It’s what happened and you’ve conflated a couple of arguments. Your point about Force generation comes after the fact that Harrier argued to come out of Afghan using the force generation argument. Once it was established that there was a black hole, the Harrier was in a risky position, as I’ve already explained.
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