RAF Sidearms
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RAF Sidearms
Living out in the Sonoran Desert requires a slightly different mindset, and I'm sure it sounds very strange for me to say that I sit surrounded by an array of Heckler & Koch's finest and about 50,000 rounds of assorted ammunition as I type this, but America does afford ex-pats some wonderful firearm related opportunities including the ability to ensure that at least a few Enfields and Webleys remain under British civilian ownership, not to mention the fun of plinking away at targets in the open desert. All of which got me to thinking - what does the RAF issue to pilots by way of sidearms these days ?
I recall the Tornado shootdown during GW1 when Nicholls and his driver were shot down, they were issued with Walther PPKs as I recall. There was a brief conversation about "going for it" as the Iraqis approached, but discretion proved to be the better part of valour and they surrendered. One Iraqi soldier wielded one of the PPKs and attempted to fire it into the air by way of celebration - and it jammed. Not entirely uncommon for PPKs, as Princess Anne's bodyguard also discovered.
So what do the lads go into combat with these days, anyone know ?
I recall the Tornado shootdown during GW1 when Nicholls and his driver were shot down, they were issued with Walther PPKs as I recall. There was a brief conversation about "going for it" as the Iraqis approached, but discretion proved to be the better part of valour and they surrendered. One Iraqi soldier wielded one of the PPKs and attempted to fire it into the air by way of celebration - and it jammed. Not entirely uncommon for PPKs, as Princess Anne's bodyguard also discovered.
So what do the lads go into combat with these days, anyone know ?
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Stand by for someone to come along and tell you it was in fact, the PP and not the PPK. They're like that here you know.. 
When the cause of the stoppage was identified as a maintenance fault, I think the rozzers wanted them back. T'was not to be. It had a lot going for it, the half cock mechanism in particular, following an ejection injury.
When the cause of the stoppage was identified as a maintenance fault, I think the rozzers wanted them back. T'was not to be. It had a lot going for it, the half cock mechanism in particular, following an ejection injury.
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The General is only used for 'Beating'. A Gentleman should use something more 'refined' and imperial - perhaps in .455"
The Glock is a very good pistolé however.
The Glock is a very good pistolé however.
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The Glock is a very good pistolé however.
I'd be surprised if they were being issued with Glocks though, ADs are a big problem with the Safe Action especially carrying it on the body while wriggling in and out of cockpits, although saying that in certain quarters would likely get me perforated.
Interestingly the RAF Regiment seems to think that the Glock 17 is a pintle mounted machine gun (judging by the accompanying photo) with an effective range of 25m and a "maximum range" of 50m.
The RAF Regiment - Glock 17 Pistol
Well, Al R was right. Here I am. PPK = James Bond. PP = RAF aircrew. K meant compact as in very little to fit under a DJ. 
Lucky the two Johns' PPs jammed or they would have killed.
Lucky the two Johns' PPs jammed or they would have killed.
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I owned a (.380/9K) PPK a few years ago and had a friend who owned a (.32/7.65mm) PP. I shot them both quite a bit on the range and while I loved both it was hard to get through 30 rounds without a stoppage of some sort or another. A beautiful little pistol and fun to play with, but I certainly wouldn't want to put my life on the line with it.
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Courtney, I am disappointed in you!
Interesting to think that 15 or so years ago, the sidearm was almost extinct (for infantry and other supporting arms). Engaged in TACP, the old Browning was very useful but they were generally deemed old hat.
Interesting to think that 15 or so years ago, the sidearm was almost extinct (for infantry and other supporting arms). Engaged in TACP, the old Browning was very useful but they were generally deemed old hat.
Well, I had to, Al.
Our previous weapon was the 9mm Browning. Much more robust. You could even shoot pencils out of them on exercises. Best thing was, it was heavier so it hurt more when you threw it at the enemy.
Our previous weapon was the 9mm Browning. Much more robust. You could even shoot pencils out of them on exercises. Best thing was, it was heavier so it hurt more when you threw it at the enemy.
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Our previous weapon was the 9mm Browning. Much more robust. You could even shoot pencils out of them on exercises
Never misfired though.
Army can be irritating.
* Suspect I hadn't fully cocked it
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My finger never seemed long enough to release the working parts with the mag removed on the Browning. Never misfired though.
You really need to try a Ruger Mk.III - truly perverse in nature.
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My finger never seemed long enough to release the working parts with the mag removed on the Browning. Never misfired though.
I was lucky [and popular] as my middle finger is long enough to disengage the magazine safety.
At one stage I owned 3 Brownings, typically fired 5,000 p/a in competition with the No 1 pistol, and had just one stoppage [a misfeed] in about 15 years of top-level UK competition.
However ... I have gone "Guns and Ammo" ... please excuse me.
* To avoid uninhibited impact on firing pin retaining plate, which will otherwise split in time.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
OK, so I'm ancient. We had a .38 revolver, with six rounds. The safe thing to do was to only load five, keeping the chamber under the hammer empty. Jumping about aeroplanes with six loaded could cause one to shoot oneself in the foot: literally.
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WW2 Aircrew Sidearms
At risk of going slightly off piste...
What was the RAF policy regarding aircrew sidearms during WW2? The movies would certainly indicate that German aircrew flying over England carried a Luger. I have not seen any sign that our crews carried a personal weapon.
Anybody know different?
BB
What was the RAF policy regarding aircrew sidearms during WW2? The movies would certainly indicate that German aircrew flying over England carried a Luger. I have not seen any sign that our crews carried a personal weapon.
Anybody know different?
BB
What was it that Murphy's Laws of Combat said? Something along the lines of:
Bring a gun, better still bring 2 guns. And make sure your gun never has a calibre that starts with a number less than 4. Seems reasonable to me!
I never had any problems with the Browning - it worked fine as a paperweight. I always said if I had to use a sidearm then something had gone spectacularly wrong. I'd always rather use an L85 which although a bit heavy are accurate, reliable (now at least) and relatively compact and therefore good in confined spaces.
Bring a gun, better still bring 2 guns. And make sure your gun never has a calibre that starts with a number less than 4. Seems reasonable to me!
I never had any problems with the Browning - it worked fine as a paperweight. I always said if I had to use a sidearm then something had gone spectacularly wrong. I'd always rather use an L85 which although a bit heavy are accurate, reliable (now at least) and relatively compact and therefore good in confined spaces.
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Comissioned aircrew shouldn't be allowed anywhere near sidearms. It was one of Cranwell's finest who put a couple of rounds (when one ND isn't enough!) into the ceiling of the armoury at Gornji Vakuf whilst stopping over with his broken twin-rotor death banana, leading to anyone RAF (including TSW's finest) getting stick by proxy.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
At risk of going slightly off piste...
What was the RAF policy regarding aircrew sidearms during WW2? The movies would certainly indicate that German aircrew flying over England carried a Luger. I have not seen any sign that our crews carried a personal weapon.
Anybody know different?
BB
What was the RAF policy regarding aircrew sidearms during WW2? The movies would certainly indicate that German aircrew flying over England carried a Luger. I have not seen any sign that our crews carried a personal weapon.
Anybody know different?
BB
Best advice was as a signalling device or to deter nasties in the jungle - 5 rounds didn't go far. In the 70s, in Cyprus we were armed for self-protection on base.
Later, on Nimrods, I was told they were to guard the aircraft if we diverted. I suggested 4xSMG would have been better, but it was never taken up.