USAF to Atheist: Say 'God' in oath or don't re-enlist.

[Typhoon93]

Thoughts?

http://rt.com/usa/186176-air-force-a...listment-oath/

[The Old Fat One]

Swinderby 1975 flashback...at the swearing in thingy.

Young recruit, cockney like me (but not me)..."I wish to affirm". Much alarm and indignation, but after some checking, even back them, it was discovered he had the right to do so...and he did.

I'm gobsmacked, and frankly a little alarmed, if the spams don't allow an affirmation from atheists????

[Lonewolf_50]

Old Fat One: in my experience, we normally do/did make that accomodation.

What's at hand here is the matter of public law.
Not just the USAF is so bound, as far as I can tell, but it seems that the USAF has chosen to go after the letter of the law for their own reasons.

Point First:

The Enlistment oath and officer's Oath of Office both contain this phrase. {So Help Me God}
Normally, it is not required to be said if the speaker has a personal or moral objection, as is true of all oaths administered by the United States government.
However, a change in October 2013 to Air Force Instruction 36-2606 made it mandatory to include the phrase during Air Force enlistments / reenlistments. This change has made the instruction "consistent with the language mandated in 10 USC 502".

Point Second:

§ 502. Enlistment oath: who may administer

(a) Enlistment Oath.— Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:
"I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

(b) Who May Administer.— The oath may be taken before the President, the Vice-President, the Secretary of Defense, any commissioned officer, or any other person designated under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense.

I suspect that if this ends up in the Supreme Court, the "normally" mentioned above, which was a custom with long standing, will probably be codified into a regulation of some sort to accomodate those who have no religious belief.

Freedom of religion and freedom from an official state religion are both addressed in the First Amendment to our Constitution.

PS: your reference to Americans as "spams" appears deliberately offensive, and I'd ask you to be more polite in the future. Sort of like the casual habit of referring to folks of African descent as "coons," ya see ... I realize it's a long British habit, and common among certain Yank bashers on this forum, but I invite you to get into the year 2014, no matter how old or fat you are. (I am becoming more of both as each year passes, it seems! )

EDIT: For those interested, the standard Department of Defense Enlistment papers, which include the oath, is on line here: DD Form 4.

EDIT 2:

Sun Who, there is a small and very vocal evangelical minority in uniform who are quite outspoken in such matters. There were when I first entered the service in the 70's, and still are. That is what comes of having citizen soldiers: the new troops/sailors bring their beliefs with them. I wish some of those evangelical folks would appreciate that our non-believing comrades in arms do likewise.

[Sun Who]

When I joined in '83, I swore an affirmation, on my honour (not honor). No-one made me swear on a Bible, or to God and it wasn't a big deal, even then.
I'm a big fan of the US, it has many qualities that I admire, but a small percentage of my American colleagues and friends can be quite fundamentalist when it comes to the 'God thing'. Just makes it harder to criticise the fundamentalists on the other side if you ask me.

Sun.

[Herod]

I always liked Dave Allan's (Irish comedian and satirist) sign-off. "Goodnight, and may your god go with you". I guess that covers all gods, and none.

[Red Line Entry]

Lonewolf,

For clarity: Yank is OK, Spam is not? How about Septic? Or GI?

Where does Limey fit in? Or Pom, or Rosbif, or Brit or Tommy?

Or can we just accept friendly banter between cousins?

[Typhoon93]

I did find it strange, as in the UK there are different oaths for various religious beliefs, and there is one for Atheist/Agnostic folks. Different they may be, they all have the same meaning and the consequences are the same for breaking them.

[Boudreaux Bob]

'm gobsmacked, and frankly a little alarmed, if the spams don't allow an affirmation from atheists????

Care to explain why a Teabag would feel that way?

[The Helpful Stacker]

I too affirmed at my attestation, no gasps of shock or mutterings of "heathen" were heard.

As an aside, being a 'Benedict Arnold' I've never had an issue with the term 'spam' and I've been called it a fair bit during my service to Liz. Lets be honest, the use of food-based nicknames to refer to foreigners is hardly unheard of in the US yet I've never heard Brits getting precious about being called 'Limeys'.

[Roadster280]

Yank is a term used by those who don't know what it means. Otherwise, they'd know not to say stuff like "I spoke to a Yank the other day with a long southern drawl". It just makes them look stupid.

Septic is equally as asinine, as it is a shortening of "Septic Tank", being rhyming slang. It's not offensive, it's just rhyming slang. It is however stupid, because only a percentage of Americans are Yanks (Yank being what Septic Tank rhymes with). So again, used by the hard of thinking.

SPAM is an acronym, and is indeed offensive, once one understands what the letters stand for. Who in their right mind is OK with being called a Motherf*cker?

GI is a term used by the US government, so I don't see any issue with that, but then nobody (less the US Government...) uses it anymore than they say "swell".

Pom, Rosbif, Limey, Brit or Tommy don't offend me at all. Neither do the American ones above, but I do see why some people see the idiots using those terms for what they are.

[Tankertrashnav]

The reason why the words "so help me God" are now required are laid out in the articles quoted by Lonewolf. What is not clear, however, is the thinking behind the recent move to make these words compulsory, when it would appear, if I have read it right, that hitherto they could be omitted.

Could it be that the evangelical faction referred to by Lonewolf have had their say and are seeking to exclude atheists? It certainly seems so.

Living in a very secular society (UK) I am often somewhat surprised at the extent to which religion still plays a major part in the day to day life of many citizens of the USA, but I hadn't realised things had gone this far.

I'm not keen on "spams" either, Lonewolf

btw


I much prefer septics

No offence - really!

btw roadster - I think most of us realise the original meaning of "yankee", just as most Americans realise that the United Kingdom is made up of four different nations, but that doesnt stop many of them referring to the country as "England". I dont think it does to get too precious about these things.

[99 Change Hands]

I remember an American getting very upset on our behalf when we were given the callsign 'Limey' at Flag; we loved it.

Personally, I object to USAF personnel in Suffolk referring to Great Britain as 'the island'.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Yank is a term used by those who don't know what it means.

Not necessarily. I get called 'yank' by my ice hockey teammates all the time and , technically, they're not 'wrong' as such and many of them even know why! The state of my birth was a union state, hence those with "a long southern drawl" might describe it as a 'Yankee State' (some down there really can't let it go).

SPAM is an acronym, and is indeed offensive, once one understands what the letters stand for. Who in their right mind is OK with being called a Motherf*cker?

SPAM is a portmanteau of 'SPiced hAM', and is a term used to describe us that came about from food sent to the UK during WW2 from the US which included the ubiquitous tins of SPAM. Any crude acronym that later came about is an aside and moot. I'm quite proud of the term 'SPAM', its a little reminder everytime a Brit says it that the US helped save them from starvation.

[MPN11]

As I'm currently a Brit on vacation/holiday in Virginia (as is often the case), and spending time with various friends (ex-Mil predominantly), I'm deeply conscious of the linguistic and cultural differences between the two Nations.

Curiously, despite the group including a US Navy pilot, a submariner, a Ranger/SF, a couple of Marines and a USAF guy (and myself and OH both ex-RAF) none of us use potentially perjorative terms for each other's Service or nationality. Perhaps over the last 10 years or so we have just accepted our differences? Or perhaps we are just older and more polite? Or perhaps my many years controlling USAF aircraft over East Anglia, and visiting their bases helped?

I even earned credibility in the early days by referring to The War Between the States ... VA being a Southern State, the distinction matters to some here. I do not, however, refer to The War of Northern Aggression as that leads into some very complex debate which makes "The Irish Question" seem simple

[Bob Viking]

Lonewolf Roadster et al

Come on guys, you know the number one rule of banter. The more you whinge the more it's going to happen!
Day one, week one.
BV

[Roadster280]

I don't give a monkey's to be honest.

Anyway Bob V, weren't you on Jags? Glass houses and all that

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Complicated business, Oaths, especially when they seem to conflict with Constitutions.

Appeal court upholds oath to Queen in citizenship case - The Globe and Mail

I wished to affirm when I graduated RAF IOT in 1985, but there was no form of words for this. The senior Chaplain advised me simply to omit the phrase mentioning God, so that's what I did.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Is Ameritard ok? Joke ��

I believe in a God, but I don't believe in people that tell me there is one, bit of a difference, knobheads.

God save the Queen is another one. Save her from her taxpayer funded luxury lifestyle???

[Just a spotter]

Hmm .. given that in the shared Judeo-Christian faiths their scriptures describe their deity as revealing itslef to Abraham, and that the Islamic sacred texts tells of a similar story to the same guy (known as Ibrahim in Arabic), so thus the three traditions are collectively known as the Abrahamic Religions and are therefore all worshipping the same god (or derivatives there of), I wonder would the US military allow re-enlistment to "so help me Allah"?



JAS

[Bob Viking]

Jag Banter

It's alright Roadster I'm a big boy. I can take it.
I will not add a 'so to speak'. It was meant to come across as a crude double entendre.
BV