USAF to Atheist: Say 'God' in oath or don't re-enlist.
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I'm not getting it.
So help me George.
I don't know who George is, I don't believe he will help me, I have no problem saying it. I don't see how it has anything to do with what I do or don't believe in. So help me Tim. So help me Bob.
It's not a lie to say so help me David. Or does it mean that I believe in David.
If they truly are atheist, then the word that they have such difficulty with has absolutely no meaning to them whatsoever. Its not a lie. The statement isn't "I believe Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Saviour, Son of the Almighty God in Heaven", it's "So help me God".
This is not about their religious beliefs being impinged upon (and based on every definition of religion I've ever read, being and atheist is a form of religion), but it's about attempting to have their beliefs rule the beliefs of others.
So help me George.
I don't know who George is, I don't believe he will help me, I have no problem saying it. I don't see how it has anything to do with what I do or don't believe in. So help me Tim. So help me Bob.
It's not a lie to say so help me David. Or does it mean that I believe in David.
If they truly are atheist, then the word that they have such difficulty with has absolutely no meaning to them whatsoever. Its not a lie. The statement isn't "I believe Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Saviour, Son of the Almighty God in Heaven", it's "So help me God".
This is not about their religious beliefs being impinged upon (and based on every definition of religion I've ever read, being and atheist is a form of religion), but it's about attempting to have their beliefs rule the beliefs of others.
Old Fat One: very gracious of you sir. 
Fox3:
As I pointed out earlier...
This oath of office is standard across all of our branches of service, as cited in the DD Form 4. It isn't "the Air Force Oath."
What the US Air Force did was reword its regulations so that its oath of enlisement regs more closely followed the Congressional Law that governs this matter.
The question asked on the behalf of atheists, agnostics, Wiccan, Druid, etc, who take the oath is very well asked, and IMO needs to be answered. My basis for that position is enshrined in the First Amendment to our Constitution.
Fox3:
The Air Force Oath
This oath of office is standard across all of our branches of service, as cited in the DD Form 4. It isn't "the Air Force Oath."
What the US Air Force did was reword its regulations so that its oath of enlisement regs more closely followed the Congressional Law that governs this matter.
The question asked on the behalf of atheists, agnostics, Wiccan, Druid, etc, who take the oath is very well asked, and IMO needs to be answered. My basis for that position is enshrined in the First Amendment to our Constitution.
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Swinderby 1975 flashback...at the swearing in thingy.
Young recruit, cockney like me (but not me)..."I wish to affirm". Much alarm and indignation, but after some checking, even back them, it was discovered he had the right to do so...and he did.
Young recruit, cockney like me (but not me)..."I wish to affirm". Much alarm and indignation, but after some checking, even back them, it was discovered he had the right to do so...and he did.
I still have all my joining instructions for Swinditz with the map of the camp etc
Lonewolf - so, it's Congress that is illogical?
DRS - You've forgotten agnostics, of which I am one. The purpose of the Oath adding SHMG is to bind me to something which I believe in. Requiring me to add SHMG to an Affirmation is therefore requiring me to lie, since I am not a believer. Furthermore, it is asking me to start my Service with a lie, when honesty is a required primary quality for Service.
And I repeat my point - Why isn't SHMG in the Commander-in-Chief's Oath?
DRS - You've forgotten agnostics, of which I am one. The purpose of the Oath adding SHMG is to bind me to something which I believe in. Requiring me to add SHMG to an Affirmation is therefore requiring me to lie, since I am not a believer. Furthermore, it is asking me to start my Service with a lie, when honesty is a required primary quality for Service.
And I repeat my point - Why isn't SHMG in the Commander-in-Chief's Oath?
DRS - You've forgotten agnostics, of which I am one. The purpose of the Oath adding SHMG is to bind me to something which I believe in. Requiring me to add SHMG to an Affirmation is therefore requiring me to lie, since I am not a believer. Furthermore, it is asking me to start my Service with a lie, when honesty is a required primary quality for Service.
In this country, republicanism is not a crime, and yet anyone wishing to join to armed forces has to swear an oath of allegiance to the Crown. I dare say that over the years a fair few republicans have had to lie at the start of their service lives, when all they want to do is to serve their country in a job they love.
Is it not time in this country then to drop the oath to the Crown in favour of an oath to the country?
If you don't 'believe' in either, the difference isn't so big. Swearing allegiance to one or the other (or both) still requires you to begin your service career with a lie, and I think that was the point that Fox was making with regard to an oath of allegiance to god.
One can be a republican and still honestly swear allegiance to the Crown, if one wants a democratic transition from Constitutional Monarchy to a Republic. The same is not true of SHMG
Can't say I agree it's possible in good conscience to swear an oath of allegiance to an institution you want to see abolished, but I digest also...
Last edited by melmothtw; 11th Sep 2014 at 17:10.
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Oddly I was having a conversation with a civvy colleague about the Oath of Allegiance/Attestation last night and she asked me a question I couldn't reliably answer.
"When does your need to comply with the oath end?"
At the moment it is not an issue but is the oath linked to service contract (when no longer under full time or reserve commitment oath 'expires') or does it effectively never end?
"When does your need to comply with the oath end?"
At the moment it is not an issue but is the oath linked to service contract (when no longer under full time or reserve commitment oath 'expires') or does it effectively never end?
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It would appear from this that our American cousins have Christian as well as Islamic fundamentalists to worry about. From what I have gathered Atheists are regarded as the spawn of the devil in the US. My little country in the past was extremely sectarian but now my sons and daughters generation really do not give a bugger about religion or race - few attend churches,few profess any formal faith and as a result we have one less factor in our society to cause social unrest. I myself have been an Atheist from an early age but I also believe that we each have a right to seek our own path through life - as long as that path does not impinge upon the freedom of others.
As a young boy I lived in predominantly Islamic societies and regarded Muslims as just Christians who prayed in a different direction, but Islam has morphed into a faith with a significant number of intolerant barbaric savages - with the passive acquiescence of the moderate majority. There are large numbers of adherents to Islam that would kill me and anyone of a different faith given the chance. There is only one solution to religious fanaticism,if we do not act now it may result in the modern equivalent of the fall of Rome.
As a young boy I lived in predominantly Islamic societies and regarded Muslims as just Christians who prayed in a different direction, but Islam has morphed into a faith with a significant number of intolerant barbaric savages - with the passive acquiescence of the moderate majority. There are large numbers of adherents to Islam that would kill me and anyone of a different faith given the chance. There is only one solution to religious fanaticism,if we do not act now it may result in the modern equivalent of the fall of Rome.
"When does your need to comply with the oath end?"
Legally, the Oath ends when the requirement for Service ends. Personally, I don't think it ever ends. There is no time limit mentioned within it. Should the Crown choose, in extremis, to appoint Officers over me and issue orders once more, I'm happy to comply. Would probably have to be pretty extremis now though for me to be of any use
Legally, the Oath ends when the requirement for Service ends. Personally, I don't think it ever ends. There is no time limit mentioned within it. Should the Crown choose, in extremis, to appoint Officers over me and issue orders once more, I'm happy to comply. Would probably have to be pretty extremis now though for me to be of any use