Ascent UK MFTS
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hampshire
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No, Valley isn't awful at all. The location has a lot going for it in terms of mountains, coastline and scenery. It's more a matter of proximity to other places: if you are used to being elsewhere, then just about everywhere 'else' will take some time to reach.
There is no metropolis, but for the right sort of person, that's exactly the point.
There is no metropolis, but for the right sort of person, that's exactly the point.
Valley is just like every other station you could find yourself at. Some people will love it, others will hate it.
The myth about the Welsh hating the English is as out of date as it is ridiculous. People like to trot out the same old rubbish that they have heard from others. The bottom line is that Anglesey has changed a lot in the last few years (there are still crap bits just like you'll find anywhere but overall it's a lovely place), it's a great place if you want to give it a chance and the Welsh are not as bad as people would have you believe.
https://whywelsh.wordpress.com/2013/...e-unwelcoming/
BV
The myth about the Welsh hating the English is as out of date as it is ridiculous. People like to trot out the same old rubbish that they have heard from others. The bottom line is that Anglesey has changed a lot in the last few years (there are still crap bits just like you'll find anywhere but overall it's a lovely place), it's a great place if you want to give it a chance and the Welsh are not as bad as people would have you believe.
https://whywelsh.wordpress.com/2013/...e-unwelcoming/
BV
BV, I recall the words of one Mandy Rice-Davies "Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?" (actually she didn't quite say it that way, but that's the normally accepted version, along with "Cor, Lord Astor, 'aven't you got a little willy!").
But commuting to Valley from Chester? Even on the vastly-improved roads of today, that's a 90 mile one-way trip.
Whether Ascent can attract enough people of the right quality to sustain their operation at Valley remains to be seen.....
As a student I did a year there; first the Gnat course, then holding, then a Hunter refresher. Apart from the often vile weather, I quite liked the place - but as it took nearly an hour to reach Bangor on the old A5 and Menai Bridge route, escape from Anglesey wasn't a particularly common event, so we made the most of it. Whereas now it's only about a 25 min journey and there's even a decent dual carriageway back to Engerland.
But commuting to Valley from Chester? Even on the vastly-improved roads of today, that's a 90 mile one-way trip.
Whether Ascent can attract enough people of the right quality to sustain their operation at Valley remains to be seen.....
As a student I did a year there; first the Gnat course, then holding, then a Hunter refresher. Apart from the often vile weather, I quite liked the place - but as it took nearly an hour to reach Bangor on the old A5 and Menai Bridge route, escape from Anglesey wasn't a particularly common event, so we made the most of it. Whereas now it's only about a 25 min journey and there's even a decent dual carriageway back to Engerland.
Of course there are lovers and haters but most of the feelings expressed here are from those who have done time at Valley within the Service with the commensurate removals, disturbance allowance, subsidised accommodation, HTD etc - and in the knowledge that it was just for 3 years. I can't see many of those who 'didn't actually mind' Valley wanting to go there for a permanent civilian job.
Beags - Chester to Valley is only about 80 miles, so I can see somewhere in the Chester area being about 70, and pretty much dual carriageway door-to-door. Again, for a last tour with HTD, that isn't so bad - but for a permanent commute, potentially at one's own expense, not so attractive.
As for,
Not sure what the citizenship requirements are but it looks like he's got the language hacked!
Beags - Chester to Valley is only
about 80 miles, so I can see somewhere in the Chester area being about 70, and pretty much dual carriageway door-to-door. Again, for a last tour with HTD, that isn't so bad - but for a permanent commute, potentially at one's own expense, not so attractive.As for,
Not sure what the citizenship requirements are but it looks like he's got the language hacked!
70 miles is still way too far for a daily commute, surely? But now that there's a decent road, possibly do-able.
After my Hawk refresher, it took me around 8 hours to drive to Chivenor on the old A5 to M5 route to Taunton and then the Black Cat café route. And I certainly do recall how glad I was to see the 'Croesoe I Gymru' sign in my rear view mirror!
It did amuse me when Ascent was advertising some post based in Bristol, which required 'regular' visits to Valley - I could imagine people beating a path to their door. Not!
After my Hawk refresher, it took me around 8 hours to drive to Chivenor on the old A5 to M5 route to Taunton and then the Black Cat café route. And I certainly do recall how glad I was to see the 'Croesoe I Gymru' sign in my rear view mirror!
It did amuse me when Ascent was advertising some post based in Bristol, which required 'regular' visits to Valley - I could imagine people beating a path to their door. Not!
Deliverance
All I'm saying is stop and think about it. Was the hatred you felt any different from that which could be experienced anywhere else? You know what us pilot types are like. Turning up in an area with our flash cars and bottomless wallets (I wish) and stealing all the local girls. I know of more people getting beaten up in the Sleaford/Lincoln area for this kind of behaviour than I have ever heard of at Valley.
There are usually two sides to every story. I'm English through and through but have probably gone native more than most. My wife is from N Wales. Two of our kids were born here. My wife's family and friends have always been very welcoming and I have never felt any angst from anyone. I believed all the crap when I arrived at Valley in 2002 but once I opened my eyes a little I found it was all untrue.
Too many people believe the lies and also base their views on what it was like before the dual carriageway was built. If you haven't been here for a while then trust me. It's changed. I for one wouldn't choose anywhere else to be based in the UK. Each to their own.
BEagle. The matter of getting civilians to work here though is clearly another matter. Thankfully it's not my problem.
BV
There are usually two sides to every story. I'm English through and through but have probably gone native more than most. My wife is from N Wales. Two of our kids were born here. My wife's family and friends have always been very welcoming and I have never felt any angst from anyone. I believed all the crap when I arrived at Valley in 2002 but once I opened my eyes a little I found it was all untrue.
Too many people believe the lies and also base their views on what it was like before the dual carriageway was built. If you haven't been here for a while then trust me. It's changed. I for one wouldn't choose anywhere else to be based in the UK. Each to their own.
BEagle. The matter of getting civilians to work here though is clearly another matter. Thankfully it's not my problem.
BV
Well quite, BV. I didn't really understand why so many FJ pilots hated the idea of a tour at 4FTS after the dual carriageway had been built! Cars and roads have improved enormously since the days of my Gnat course some 40 years ago 
; even minor embuggerances such as all the Welsh on TV are now a thing of the past. So Valley isn't really as isolated as it used to be.
Just over an hour to Chester! There's lovely - the North Wales Expressway must have made such a difference to life.
; even minor embuggerances such as all the Welsh on TV are now a thing of the past. So Valley isn't really as isolated as it used to be.Just over an hour to Chester! There's lovely - the North Wales Expressway must have made such a difference to life.
70 miles is still way too far for a daily commute, surely? But now that there's a decent road, possibly do-able.
It did amuse me when Ascent was advertising some post based in Bristol, which required 'regular' visits to Valley - I could imagine people beating a path to their door. Not!
It did amuse me when Ascent was advertising some post based in Bristol, which required 'regular' visits to Valley - I could imagine people beating a path to their door. Not!
Not saying I'd love it, but as a LTD, from the future retirement pad in Chester I could see it working. Probably less time on the road than a 20 mile commute into London (but not for me either).
I enjoyed my student time there. There was loads of flying, great continuity, my dick wasn't leading me to N Yorkshire every weekend - and I did relatively well on the course. For those who couldn't wait for the Friday afternoon getaway, or who had a hard time on the course I can see it not being in their bag of favourite paces.
I enjoyed my (first) instructional time there too. The area is spectacular, the flying was great, the kids were young enough not to worry about a 3-year hiccup in their secondary education.
I just can't see them attracting the right calibre of folk - unless they pay LARGE amounts of cash, much like they do in other well known 'less desirable' flying training locations.
The Valley UKMFTS setup is not without its teething problems (the worst of which are firmly a thing of the past) but it is steadily improving and is already leaps ahead of the previous AFT/TW system.
As mentioned by BV, many nations are looking with envy at the 4 Sqn setup with its fantastic aircraft, infrastructure, synthetics and staff and I for one feel that what we as a nation have in 4 Sqn UKMFTS is World beating.
Pure conjecture, of course
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Chaps, there's lots of posts here about Devil's Island but what about the Rotary MFTS bit. Does anyone know whats happening with Shawbury? I thought the contract was supposed to be announced early this year!
Torque of the devil,
Are you sure about 208? They've just publicly unveiled a Hawk in a centenary scheme to celebrate their anniversary.
Are you sure about 208? They've just publicly unveiled a Hawk in a centenary scheme to celebrate their anniversary.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Ascent UK MFTS
One has to remember that 4 Sqn is a success despite Ascent, not because of them. In the TW role, Ascent were (and still are) completely out of their depth. Not wanting to pay a wage that will induce SQEP aircrew to join their ranks, Ascent cannot deliver a 'world class training system', at least at this highly tactical level. All the syllabus and courseware was designed by the RAF as Ascent did not know the front end of a missile from its back end, let alone how to employ it. It is still managed and updated by the RAF! At 4 Sqn, Ascent like to think they run the show but the success of the training is wholly dependant on the calibre and expertise of the (military) instructors, as it always has been. It does beg the question 'what exactly are we paying Ascent for?'. It is in this context you can understand why so many are frustrated with working on 4 as you are beholden to 2 different masters.
However, despite Ascent, 4 Sqn are turning out front line aircrew who are much better prepared for the front line. They are the product of an aircraft (T2) and (RAF designed) syllabus that has brought TW training bang up to date.
However, despite Ascent, 4 Sqn are turning out front line aircrew who are much better prepared for the front line. They are the product of an aircraft (T2) and (RAF designed) syllabus that has brought TW training bang up to date.
Double Hush.
I don't know who you are and I don't know if you have actually worked on IV but trust me when I say your comments are not welcome (and not entirely accurate). There are people in black flying suits who are working every bit as hard as their green suited brethren to make a success of the programme. Comments like yours will not help anyone, least of all those on IV Sqn.
So congratulations are in order for successfully managing to p1ss off a whole bunch of people. If that was your aim then bravo and I hope you're happy.
BV
I don't know who you are and I don't know if you have actually worked on IV but trust me when I say your comments are not welcome (and not entirely accurate). There are people in black flying suits who are working every bit as hard as their green suited brethren to make a success of the programme. Comments like yours will not help anyone, least of all those on IV Sqn.
So congratulations are in order for successfully managing to p1ss off a whole bunch of people. If that was your aim then bravo and I hope you're happy.
BV
Join Date: Apr 2008
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This is garbage, DoubleHush. I'm sorry, I don't normally post here, and I'm not keen on changing a system that has worked well for years, but you've pointed your finger at the wrong people, and it's simply not right.
"Not wanting to pay a wage that will induce SQEP aircrew to join their ranks, Ascent cannot deliver a 'world class training system', at least at this highly tactical level."
Whatever they pay, it must be enough because they QWIs that work there are certainly SQEP, with more instructional hours and flying experience in their small group than all of the RAF instructors combined.
"All the syllabus and courseware was designed by the RAF as Ascent did not know the front end of a missile from its back end, let alone how to employ it."
Many of those QIs have fired those very same missiles and dropped those bombs they talk about in their Phase Briefs. The courseware taught was generated collaboratively between the RAF and Ascent-employed SMEs.
"It is still managed and updated by the RAF!"
Both the RAF and the QIs contribute to the courseware. New QFIs come back from the front line. They have the gouge, the older instructors have the teaching experience. Working together works well. The management could be better - Ascent's courseware update process is unwieldy compared to when it was managed by the RAF. That's not the fault of anyone working on IV Sqn though.
"At 4 Sqn, Ascent like to think they run the show but the success of the training is wholly dependant on the calibre and expertise of the (military) instructors, as it always has been."
Again, it's collaborative. The success is dependent on the expertise of both parties. If the students technical knowledge and emergency handling is good, it is not down the the RAF instructors, as over 90% of that is delivered solely by Ascent. Thanks to Ascent QIs, the students arrive at the aircraft better prepared for each sortie than I have seen in any other training system.
"It does beg the question 'what exactly are we paying Ascent for?'. It is in this context you can understand why so many are frustrated with working on 4 as you are beholden to 2 different masters."
This is true. I would agree that we do not need Ascent. Simply bolster the numbers of the RAF from 34k back up to 60k+ and we wouldn't need Ascent.
Of course, those very same QIs would stil be doing the teaching, just wearing green suits and getting paid PAS. Would that be OK? So what's your point?
You're waving your finger at the wrong people.
We have partnered with Ascent due to the 2011 NAO report and the SDSR shrinking of the service. How we shrunk the regular service to the size where we needed to employ ex-military rather than keeping them as existing military is worthy of debate.
Now we are here though, we have partnered to bolster the ranks. Thankfully, the individuals selected to work alongside the RAF instructors are an extremely experienced group of individuals.
"However, despite Ascent, 4 Sqn are turning out front line aircrew who are much better prepared for the front line. They are the product of an aircraft (T2) and (RAF designed) syllabus that has brought TW training bang up to date."
What is your evidence for this statement?
"Not wanting to pay a wage that will induce SQEP aircrew to join their ranks, Ascent cannot deliver a 'world class training system', at least at this highly tactical level."
Whatever they pay, it must be enough because they QWIs that work there are certainly SQEP, with more instructional hours and flying experience in their small group than all of the RAF instructors combined.
"All the syllabus and courseware was designed by the RAF as Ascent did not know the front end of a missile from its back end, let alone how to employ it."
Many of those QIs have fired those very same missiles and dropped those bombs they talk about in their Phase Briefs. The courseware taught was generated collaboratively between the RAF and Ascent-employed SMEs.
"It is still managed and updated by the RAF!"
Both the RAF and the QIs contribute to the courseware. New QFIs come back from the front line. They have the gouge, the older instructors have the teaching experience. Working together works well. The management could be better - Ascent's courseware update process is unwieldy compared to when it was managed by the RAF. That's not the fault of anyone working on IV Sqn though.
"At 4 Sqn, Ascent like to think they run the show but the success of the training is wholly dependant on the calibre and expertise of the (military) instructors, as it always has been."
Again, it's collaborative. The success is dependent on the expertise of both parties. If the students technical knowledge and emergency handling is good, it is not down the the RAF instructors, as over 90% of that is delivered solely by Ascent. Thanks to Ascent QIs, the students arrive at the aircraft better prepared for each sortie than I have seen in any other training system.
"It does beg the question 'what exactly are we paying Ascent for?'. It is in this context you can understand why so many are frustrated with working on 4 as you are beholden to 2 different masters."
This is true. I would agree that we do not need Ascent. Simply bolster the numbers of the RAF from 34k back up to 60k+ and we wouldn't need Ascent.
Of course, those very same QIs would stil be doing the teaching, just wearing green suits and getting paid PAS. Would that be OK? So what's your point?
You're waving your finger at the wrong people.
We have partnered with Ascent due to the 2011 NAO report and the SDSR shrinking of the service. How we shrunk the regular service to the size where we needed to employ ex-military rather than keeping them as existing military is worthy of debate.
Now we are here though, we have partnered to bolster the ranks. Thankfully, the individuals selected to work alongside the RAF instructors are an extremely experienced group of individuals.
"However, despite Ascent, 4 Sqn are turning out front line aircrew who are much better prepared for the front line. They are the product of an aircraft (T2) and (RAF designed) syllabus that has brought TW training bang up to date."
What is your evidence for this statement?