Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Danny:
I cannot speak as to what training the Army types may have gotten for evasion or possible capture, I am sure they must have received some.
In Bomber Command, Dad did receive many lectures on evasion. Their superiors did not hide the horrific casualty rate ( one third of all crews would be captured) although they did 'massage' the aircraft losses a bit, as has been covered earlier.
Subsequently, they were given detailed instructions on how to blend in with the locals, modify their battledress to some degree to not be as conspicuous ( at least at night), and were issued a rudimentary evasion kit. This often consisted of a basic map of Europe printed on rice paper ( so could be eaten to hide it) and crude compass, and a few emergency rations. Some squadrons ran drills where crews were dropped off in civvies, no ID or money, 20 or so miles from base and told to find anyway they could back without being caught. I am not aware that Dad ever did that.
Lectures were given on a frequent basis, as were, naturally well attended and well received-they all knew the risks they were facing.
Jeff
I cannot speak as to what training the Army types may have gotten for evasion or possible capture, I am sure they must have received some.
In Bomber Command, Dad did receive many lectures on evasion. Their superiors did not hide the horrific casualty rate ( one third of all crews would be captured) although they did 'massage' the aircraft losses a bit, as has been covered earlier.
Subsequently, they were given detailed instructions on how to blend in with the locals, modify their battledress to some degree to not be as conspicuous ( at least at night), and were issued a rudimentary evasion kit. This often consisted of a basic map of Europe printed on rice paper ( so could be eaten to hide it) and crude compass, and a few emergency rations. Some squadrons ran drills where crews were dropped off in civvies, no ID or money, 20 or so miles from base and told to find anyway they could back without being caught. I am not aware that Dad ever did that.
Lectures were given on a frequent basis, as were, naturally well attended and well received-they all knew the risks they were facing.
Jeff
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This noble Thread can be likened to a volcano, which interrupts periods of relative quiet (when the stove in our cybercrewroom is "banked-down" and "exeunt omnes"), with periods of furious activity (rather like a war, in fact), in which your patient scribe is fair swept away in a flood of Posts, all of which are worthy of remark (and is this "craic" not what a Forum is for ?)
This is complicated by the fact that it has a stablemate Thread now, running very close, which has very strong connections to your Scribe, who has to share his time with this and others. I refer, of course, to "Wing Commander Gill OBE DFC". He (RIP) gained his RAF Pilot's Brevet even before WWII, and his gripping story is being told admirably to us by his son (NigG), as many of us know already.
I do not suggest that the Threads be merged - it is not for me to suggest it in any case - but I have to be careful to reply in strict chrononlgical order and Not Get Mixed Up (which has happened at times), and have devised a Wizard Scheme to that end.
Cut the cackle, Scribe, and get on with it !
.................................
Stanwell (#8949),
Thanks for introducing the subject of the GAVA site (and setting the Thread off on another of its wandering byways). But (as Chugalug reminds us): " We know nothing about Painting - but we know what we like !"
Drool on, friend, it happens increasingly as the years mount up !
..................
Chugalug (#8950 and #8951),
As for the VV is concerned, I've given my opinion already !
Now the others:
1. "Thermal Hunters" - Gliders: I'm sure Stanwell would agree with me that this is a case where a soaring Eagle (or even a Vulture) would not be out of place in the picture !
2. "D-Day - Pegasus Bridge" reflects the extra hazards of glider ops - multiple pile-ups in the landing area ! Note the "bent" tree in the background - no guesses needed about what happened here. There was a TV of an anniversary celebration there some years ago, still remember the affecting picture of an old Paratroop Major (the leader ?) being pushed across the bridge in a wheelchair by his old driver on the day !
3. "High in the sunlit silence" - smooth gliders. At first glance, thought I was seeing the fabled "sky hooks" on the far glider - but they were just angled wingtips !
4. "Looking for Lift": Hard to tell altitude without scale - but if I were in the lower glider, I would be seriously worried - unless I was sure of "orographic lift" (wasn't it) pretty soon !
5. "Spot Landings par excellence". Again, the first glider couldn't have got closer - but the others were piling in behind. And there's no: "Give it the gun and go around !" now, Agree with Stanwell (#8958) - this is going to be a bit "hairy" soon (hope Hoskins gets the "round-up" right this time).
Rather liked it - till I saw the price !
Danny.
This is complicated by the fact that it has a stablemate Thread now, running very close, which has very strong connections to your Scribe, who has to share his time with this and others. I refer, of course, to "Wing Commander Gill OBE DFC". He (RIP) gained his RAF Pilot's Brevet even before WWII, and his gripping story is being told admirably to us by his son (NigG), as many of us know already.
I do not suggest that the Threads be merged - it is not for me to suggest it in any case - but I have to be careful to reply in strict chrononlgical order and Not Get Mixed Up (which has happened at times), and have devised a Wizard Scheme to that end.
Cut the cackle, Scribe, and get on with it !
.................................
Stanwell (#8949),
Thanks for introducing the subject of the GAVA site (and setting the Thread off on another of its wandering byways). But (as Chugalug reminds us): " We know nothing about Painting - but we know what we like !"
...I did spend a while on there without realising that I was drooling over my keypad...
..................
Chugalug (#8950 and #8951),
As for the VV is concerned, I've given my opinion already !
Now the others:
1. "Thermal Hunters" - Gliders: I'm sure Stanwell would agree with me that this is a case where a soaring Eagle (or even a Vulture) would not be out of place in the picture !
2. "D-Day - Pegasus Bridge" reflects the extra hazards of glider ops - multiple pile-ups in the landing area ! Note the "bent" tree in the background - no guesses needed about what happened here. There was a TV of an anniversary celebration there some years ago, still remember the affecting picture of an old Paratroop Major (the leader ?) being pushed across the bridge in a wheelchair by his old driver on the day !
3. "High in the sunlit silence" - smooth gliders. At first glance, thought I was seeing the fabled "sky hooks" on the far glider - but they were just angled wingtips !
4. "Looking for Lift": Hard to tell altitude without scale - but if I were in the lower glider, I would be seriously worried - unless I was sure of "orographic lift" (wasn't it) pretty soon !
5. "Spot Landings par excellence". Again, the first glider couldn't have got closer - but the others were piling in behind. And there's no: "Give it the gun and go around !" now, Agree with Stanwell (#8958) - this is going to be a bit "hairy" soon (hope Hoskins gets the "round-up" right this time).
Rather liked it - till I saw the price !
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 26th Jul 2016 at 17:55. Reason: Wizard System u/s TFN. Will sort out !
jeffb
Re escape and evasion bits. Imperial War Museum shop sells cuff-links with a compass in them. Doubt whether they are the type used in WW2, as they are too obvious, but interesting nevertheless . See here: Compass cufflinks : Welcome to the Imperial War Museum Online Shop
Meanwhile over on eBay there are a quantity of scarves etc on sale including a "Escape Map Silk Scarf WW2 World War 2 Official IWM military memorabilia". See here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/silk-map
Re escape and evasion bits. Imperial War Museum shop sells cuff-links with a compass in them. Doubt whether they are the type used in WW2, as they are too obvious, but interesting nevertheless . See here: Compass cufflinks : Welcome to the Imperial War Museum Online Shop
Meanwhile over on eBay there are a quantity of scarves etc on sale including a "Escape Map Silk Scarf WW2 World War 2 Official IWM military memorabilia". See here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/silk-map
Danny, the September issue of Flypast arrived in the post today. It contains a 7 page article on Vengeances in India with a dozen or so photographs.
No idea if it directly covers your squadron or service of course, without going back and scouring vast chunks of this thread.
As you were at least there-ish it may be worth despatching a minion, or more likely, asking your daughter nicely, to acquire a copy.
No idea if it directly covers your squadron or service of course, without going back and scouring vast chunks of this thread.
As you were at least there-ish it may be worth despatching a minion, or more likely, asking your daughter nicely, to acquire a copy.
From the start of the war one organisation was responsible for instruction and supplying equipment for all UK Service Units likely to come into close contact with the enemy and hence face the possibility of capture, MI9. It was later also responsible for the interrogation of captured enemy personnel and for the dissemination of intelligence derived from both those and our own POWs.
The most prolific customer was the RAF, for reasons already discussed, to the extent that the basic MI9 training course for Instructors (Intelligence Officers in the RAF case) was known as the RAF Intelligence Course B. Early RN and Army resistance (mainly based on the supposed adverse effects on morale of stressing the possibility of capture) dissipated as the war went on, though RN D-Day personnel were excluded as it was assumed that the beaches to which they operated would be in Allied hands permanently!!
MI9 Historical Report - Arcre
The most prolific customer was the RAF, for reasons already discussed, to the extent that the basic MI9 training course for Instructors (Intelligence Officers in the RAF case) was known as the RAF Intelligence Course B. Early RN and Army resistance (mainly based on the supposed adverse effects on morale of stressing the possibility of capture) dissipated as the war went on, though RN D-Day personnel were excluded as it was assumed that the beaches to which they operated would be in Allied hands permanently!!
Allied Naval Commander Expeditionary Force in February 1944 directed that pre-capture training should NOT be given in general to Naval personnel training for operation "Overlord". His reason was that the time was limited and that, as R.N. and R.M. personnel would be operating off beaches already in our hands or to be occupied by our forces as a result of the operation, the possibility of their capture was a remote one. In actual fact, through the cooperation of G.O.C. Royal Marines, a large number of R.M. crews of minor landing craft were covered by M.I.9(d) before joining their vessels.
Hornet's Nest
Hornet's Nest
(2016)
John Dimond GAvA
46 x 36 cm - Oil
£300.00
sorry I cannot seem to any longer be able to copy and paste the actual image,
like beforehand. I liked this one of a DH Hornet Moth in flight because the artist has depicted his subject so simply, so unadorned by superfluous effects.
when the dear old(?) Stanwell (well he did offer me a beer and a durry recently !)
says -
As that famous (trite ) saying goes .. "I don't know much about art - but I know what I like" I get ever so mildly riled . Because it is no great feat of imagination or application regarding this subject to work towards a greater understanding of artistic merit (as is the case with the serious study of poetry too) A book that opened my eyes I like to think to art appreciation was by the Hungarian emigre to Australia in 1939 Desiderius Orban . Dad years ago opened and ran a little art gallery in Canberra. Orban put on an exhibition and stayed with us for two weeks. He was a true character , quite unforgettable. He used to have a study and small art school in Sydney . Orban wrote a few books on art appreciation including 'What is art all about?'
Early on in the Second World War the highly esteemed official wartime artist Frank Wootton , painted a picture looking down on a Spitfire in flight over the Firth of Forth Bridge . That painting was used to make a colour plate in the early war publication for youngsters called OUR AIR FORCE. As with so many of Wooten's works it was a beautifully composed work of art. ( I treasued that book for many years.)
Hornet's Nest
(2016)
John Dimond GAvA
46 x 36 cm - Oil
£300.00
sorry I cannot seem to any longer be able to copy and paste the actual image,
like beforehand. I liked this one of a DH Hornet Moth in flight because the artist has depicted his subject so simply, so unadorned by superfluous effects.
when the dear old(?) Stanwell (well he did offer me a beer and a durry recently !)
says -
As that famous (trite ) saying goes .. "I don't know much about art - but I know what I like" I get ever so mildly riled . Because it is no great feat of imagination or application regarding this subject to work towards a greater understanding of artistic merit (as is the case with the serious study of poetry too) A book that opened my eyes I like to think to art appreciation was by the Hungarian emigre to Australia in 1939 Desiderius Orban . Dad years ago opened and ran a little art gallery in Canberra. Orban put on an exhibition and stayed with us for two weeks. He was a true character , quite unforgettable. He used to have a study and small art school in Sydney . Orban wrote a few books on art appreciation including 'What is art all about?'
Early on in the Second World War the highly esteemed official wartime artist Frank Wootton , painted a picture looking down on a Spitfire in flight over the Firth of Forth Bridge . That painting was used to make a colour plate in the early war publication for youngsters called OUR AIR FORCE. As with so many of Wooten's works it was a beautifully composed work of art. ( I treasued that book for many years.)
Last edited by Fantome; 26th Jul 2016 at 20:21.
mmitch, neither your link nor any UK media explained why and how the Brig. General in question attained such an august rank. It certainly wasn't in HM Forces where all such personnel scarcely made it to SO (the highest rank I recall was of a Polish Wing Commander). It transpires that he returned to Czechoslovakia in August 1945, in a Spitfire! Thus his last flight in one that he mentions, in December 1945, could have been there.
This piece speaks of shameful persecution after 1948. One can only imagine what that entailed, and was the very reason that most BoB pilots from Eastern Europe preferred to end their Service careers as JOs in the RAF. This is an amazing and brave man, though presumably he spent most of his career as a VSO within the Warsaw Pact. A pity that it wasn't thought appropriate to pad out the spiel in these sound bite pieces and tell us rather more!
Prague pays tribute to Czechoslovak RAF airmen | Ministry of Defence
This piece speaks of shameful persecution after 1948. One can only imagine what that entailed, and was the very reason that most BoB pilots from Eastern Europe preferred to end their Service careers as JOs in the RAF. This is an amazing and brave man, though presumably he spent most of his career as a VSO within the Warsaw Pact. A pity that it wasn't thought appropriate to pad out the spiel in these sound bite pieces and tell us rather more!
Prague pays tribute to Czechoslovak RAF airmen | Ministry of Defence
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Danny, - your #8963..
Eagles and Vultures .. We don't have Vultures down this way but, in their place, we do have plenty of Pelicans.
Eagles are generally fairly aware of what's going on around them, but, Pelicans ...
Seems that those silly birds get so 'high' on the rarified atmosphere on a good day that they don't feel the need to periodically 'check their six'.
I mean, what do they think they're doing? .. Hoping to catch a flying-fish or something?
Sharing the upper air with those clowns can be expensive - or worse.
But, once again, we digress ..
.
Eagles and Vultures .. We don't have Vultures down this way but, in their place, we do have plenty of Pelicans.
Eagles are generally fairly aware of what's going on around them, but, Pelicans ...
Seems that those silly birds get so 'high' on the rarified atmosphere on a good day that they don't feel the need to periodically 'check their six'.
I mean, what do they think they're doing? .. Hoping to catch a flying-fish or something?
Sharing the upper air with those clowns can be expensive - or worse.
But, once again, we digress ..
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 26th Jul 2016 at 23:03.
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Stanwell,
Never realised that pelicans can fly for any distance ! (but then there'a lot I still don't know and it's a bit too late to start now !). They seem to be able to shuffle around slowly (like me), but they're wizard underwater (where the grub is). Makes no sense to fly high, where I would suppose them to be at risk from big raptors.
Such as a jumbo jet ! One of those into an intake, and it would do the engine no good at all ! What you chaps have to contend with - now it's a drone with my fortnight's groceries from Tesco as well !
Danny.
Never realised that pelicans can fly for any distance ! (but then there'a lot I still don't know and it's a bit too late to start now !). They seem to be able to shuffle around slowly (like me), but they're wizard underwater (where the grub is). Makes no sense to fly high, where I would suppose them to be at risk from big raptors.
Such as a jumbo jet ! One of those into an intake, and it would do the engine no good at all ! What you chaps have to contend with - now it's a drone with my fortnight's groceries from Tesco as well !
Danny.
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Anyone in earshot ?
Request help with two probs: can't get anything on Google Chrome, but Internet Explorer fine (I'm on it now). Is it Google Chrome - or me ?
How do I open a New Thread ? (done it once before, got onto FAQs, clicked "Open New Thread" button - damn' all happens. ???
Would be grateful, Danny.
1157 hrs. EDIT: Got Google Chrome back - 'twas me after all ! Second question still open. D.
1253 hrs. EDIT: All solved ! Stand down. D.
Request help with two probs: can't get anything on Google Chrome, but Internet Explorer fine (I'm on it now). Is it Google Chrome - or me ?
How do I open a New Thread ? (done it once before, got onto FAQs, clicked "Open New Thread" button - damn' all happens. ???
Would be grateful, Danny.
1157 hrs. EDIT: Got Google Chrome back - 'twas me after all ! Second question still open. D.
1253 hrs. EDIT: All solved ! Stand down. D.
Last edited by Danny42C; 27th Jul 2016 at 11:52. Reason: Change.
Danny if you:-
Were you still checked in? PPRuNe automatically logs you out if you haven't been active on site for some time, or indeed have restarted your browser. Just check in again and then press the button...
clicked "Open New Thread" button - damn' all happens. ???
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Warmtoast, your photos of approaching Hong Kong are really impressing. We are a couple of enthusiasts who collect memories of old Hong Kong, mainly photos on the website Gwulo: Old Hong Kong |. I would like to upload some of yours to the website. If you agree files with higher resolution would be helpful. Also other photos in conncetion with Hong Kong would be welcome.
Regards, motohakone
Regards, motohakone
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ScouseFlyer,
Adopted your first suggestion, worked. Ta, wack !
Ex-Scouse.
.................
Chugalug,
Thank you for (as ever) guiding my faltering footsteps, but Scouse was easier, and I always was a lazy devil !
Cheers, both, Danny.
Adopted your first suggestion, worked. Ta, wack !
Ex-Scouse.
.................
Chugalug,
Thank you for (as ever) guiding my faltering footsteps, but Scouse was easier, and I always was a lazy devil !
Cheers, both, Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 27th Jul 2016 at 11:47. Reason: Typo.
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'Scouse me, but am not an ex-spouse (yet) - ♫......We've been together now for 61 years, an' it don't seem a day too long......♫
Left Ullet Road (Seffie Park, L23) to come back to the Mob in '49, retired '72, Mrs D. Yorkshire lass, we live in what the Post Office says is Cleveland, but Mrs D. will have none of it: says we are in North Yorkshire, better not to argue !
Last saw Liverpool in about '73, couldn't find way about, will never see it again now.
Danny.
Left Ullet Road (Seffie Park, L23) to come back to the Mob in '49, retired '72, Mrs D. Yorkshire lass, we live in what the Post Office says is Cleveland, but Mrs D. will have none of it: says we are in North Yorkshire, better not to argue !
Last saw Liverpool in about '73, couldn't find way about, will never see it again now.
Danny.
motohakone
Please send me your email address (by private message if necessary - box on top right of page), and I'll see what I can do.
WT
Warmtoast, your photos of approaching Hong Kong are really impressing. We are a couple of enthusiasts who collect memories of old Hong Kong, mainly photos on the website Gwulo: Old Hong Kong |. I would like to upload some of yours to the website. If you agree files with higher resolution would be helpful. Also other photos in connection with Hong Kong would be welcome.
Please send me your email address (by private message if necessary - box on top right of page), and I'll see what I can do.
WT
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Mrs D. Yorkshire lass, we live in what the Post Office says is Cleveland, but Mrs D. will have none of it: says we are in North Yorkshire, better not to argue !
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Danny,
Re the earlier mention of Eagles and Pelicans...
The pelican we nearly hit was at a tad over 10,000ft - gave us a bit of a fright, it did..
Being about the same size as our largest raptor, the Wedge-Tailed Eagle, which, incidentally, features on our RAAF badge (in place of the RAF '****e-hawk'),
they're not an item of prey.
Our Sea Eagles, a bit smaller but quite territorial, do give them a hard time, though.
I've watched some amazing dog-fights between them off our coast, here.
Having a wingspan of about 10 feet, they're excellent soarers and gliders but aren't really capable of sustained flapping flight - even though they can travel
1000 miles between feeding areas.
Being a bit like lazy old men, (as our women-folk would have it) they're into 'energy conservation' and travel by using one thermal after another.
As 'Dive Bombers', they're superb and I'd noticed that they'll use the same technique as you'd so well described earlier in this thread with the Vultee Vengeance.
That is, in a vertical dive, rotating about their longitudinal axis to achieve the required accuracy.
They don't often miss.
Next time, I'll tell you a couple of things about our RAAF icon, the Wedge-Tailed Eagle.
Re the earlier mention of Eagles and Pelicans...
The pelican we nearly hit was at a tad over 10,000ft - gave us a bit of a fright, it did..
Being about the same size as our largest raptor, the Wedge-Tailed Eagle, which, incidentally, features on our RAAF badge (in place of the RAF '****e-hawk'),
they're not an item of prey.
Our Sea Eagles, a bit smaller but quite territorial, do give them a hard time, though.
I've watched some amazing dog-fights between them off our coast, here.
Having a wingspan of about 10 feet, they're excellent soarers and gliders but aren't really capable of sustained flapping flight - even though they can travel
1000 miles between feeding areas.
Being a bit like lazy old men, (as our women-folk would have it) they're into 'energy conservation' and travel by using one thermal after another.
As 'Dive Bombers', they're superb and I'd noticed that they'll use the same technique as you'd so well described earlier in this thread with the Vultee Vengeance.
That is, in a vertical dive, rotating about their longitudinal axis to achieve the required accuracy.
They don't often miss.
Next time, I'll tell you a couple of things about our RAAF icon, the Wedge-Tailed Eagle.