Blue on Blue.
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Cpl Hulls Widow
Just heard Mrs Hull on PM. Fantastically dignified lady asking to be left alone to rebuild her life in spite of some very leading questions from the journalist. Made me remember that real people are still living with the effects of ... poor investment, tactics, decision making, briefing, training etc. Lots of armchair pontificators here (inc me) but for some reason her words and manner really struck me today.
Zoom,
The cockpit recording is of everything that was going through the audio box on the jet it was taken from. This includes what the guy in the cockpit is saying to himself. As he says "I'm going to be sick" or words to that effect you can hear him unmask, and all the way through you can hear him breathing.
The cockpit recording is of everything that was going through the audio box on the jet it was taken from. This includes what the guy in the cockpit is saying to himself. As he says "I'm going to be sick" or words to that effect you can hear him unmask, and all the way through you can hear him breathing.
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Famous Pierre
"Aall the right efforts were made to educate the US pilots on vehicle recognition by sending our wagons down to the A-10 base so they could see them before the war."
Yes, but did they drive them out into the desert to have the A-10 pilots spot them from above? I'm told they just sat on the pan.
The A-10 training base at Davis-Monthan AFB, Ariz, where all the US-based ANG A-10 units did their work-ups before deploying, did not have ANY British ground combat equipment to train with out at the Barry Goldwater range.
The first time the Davis-Monthan trainers had cockpit views of Scimitars, according to a US trainer I spoke to three years ago (Scimitars apparently look a bit like BMP2s from a distance and from above (though the two Popovs seemed to think they were Zils or flatbed trucks)) - was when a Tornado GR4 semi-squadron came in for CAS training in January 03. By which time the 190th (the Popovs) had already left for Kuwait.
And anyway, weren't they trained to recognise orange ID panels? Anyone ever heard of orange rockets?
Yes, but did they drive them out into the desert to have the A-10 pilots spot them from above? I'm told they just sat on the pan.
The A-10 training base at Davis-Monthan AFB, Ariz, where all the US-based ANG A-10 units did their work-ups before deploying, did not have ANY British ground combat equipment to train with out at the Barry Goldwater range.
The first time the Davis-Monthan trainers had cockpit views of Scimitars, according to a US trainer I spoke to three years ago (Scimitars apparently look a bit like BMP2s from a distance and from above (though the two Popovs seemed to think they were Zils or flatbed trucks)) - was when a Tornado GR4 semi-squadron came in for CAS training in January 03. By which time the 190th (the Popovs) had already left for Kuwait.
And anyway, weren't they trained to recognise orange ID panels? Anyone ever heard of orange rockets?
What happened during this blue on blue incident where Two soldiers were killed by tank fire?
What did the investigation determine the cause to be and could have IFF gear or the like have prevented this tragedy?
A second Blue on Blue from Afghanistan
If one views the documentary of the killing of the American football star, Pat Tillman" in Afghanistan, it shows how despite the very best of intentions, these things happen. Please to remember the brother of the fellow killed was in the very same unit and involved in that combat action during which Tillman died after being hit by .50 caliber fire from a Humvee trying to escape an ambush.
The chain of events in Tillman's death paint a situation where there was either mis-communication or no communication during a running gun battle between two Friendly units and two enemy units.
The documentary included interviews of many of the people in the unit who were involved in the action. It is heart breaking to listen to their accounts all the while knowing what the outcome was.
It should be a case study on how confusing things can be in combat despite thinking you know what the heck is going on when you really do not.
For those of you who are not familar withe what happened....
Convoy made up of two groups of Humvees and civilian vehicles are having to traverse a canyon with steep hills on either side. The road snakes back and forth along the narrow bottom of the canyon. The trailing half is stopped by a broken down civvie truck and the lead half drives on out of the canyon and is out of sight of the other part of the column. Bad guys on each side of the canyon kick off an ambush using RPG's and small arms fire to include light machine guns....the column under attack is blocked by the Civvie truck. After a bit....the civvie truck is moved to the side of the road and the column moves out towards the lead part of the column.
The lead column sees and hears tracers and gunfire but cannot see the other half of the unit in contact. They move to either side of the road on the hillsides leading up to the top of the two ridges and move to engage the ambushers. Tillman with an Afghani soldier go on the left side of the ridge as they face the direction of the ambush. These troops then engage the ambush just as the stopped column is making its way out. The vehicles are returning fire against the ambushers.
As the column passes Tillman's position (with the setting sun behind him and blinding the the vehicle gunners....the Afghani firing an AK engages the ambushers on the hillside near Tillman and himself. A Humvee gunner sees muzzle flashes and hears the sound of the AK being fired....directs his .50 Cal M2 fire towards that and kills both the Afghani and Tillman.
The column moving out of the valley while shooting their way out....did not know the other half of the unit was returning to their location to help break the ambush.
What did the investigation determine the cause to be and could have IFF gear or the like have prevented this tragedy?
The British Defense Ministry announced Tuesday that two Britishtank crew were killed late Monday in "a friendly fire" incident near the Iraqi second largest city of Basra.
The soldiers were killed Monday night in a friendly fire incident from another British Challenger during a night battle with Iraqi forces on the outskirts of Basra, said a spokesman for the Ministry of Defense.
The two soldiers were from the Queen's Royal Lancers operating a Challenger II main battle tank, the spokesman said.
"It is with deep regret that the Ministry of Defense has to confirm the death of Corporal Stephen John Allbutt, 35, and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke, 19," he added.
Army chiefs investigating the incident have not disclosed whether the tank which fired the fatal shot was from the same regiment.
The Challenger II is the British Army's main battle tank and entered service in June 1998. Its advanced thermal imaging system, used to function at night, is regarded as the best in the world.
The soldiers were killed Monday night in a friendly fire incident from another British Challenger during a night battle with Iraqi forces on the outskirts of Basra, said a spokesman for the Ministry of Defense.
The two soldiers were from the Queen's Royal Lancers operating a Challenger II main battle tank, the spokesman said.
"It is with deep regret that the Ministry of Defense has to confirm the death of Corporal Stephen John Allbutt, 35, and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke, 19," he added.
Army chiefs investigating the incident have not disclosed whether the tank which fired the fatal shot was from the same regiment.
The Challenger II is the British Army's main battle tank and entered service in June 1998. Its advanced thermal imaging system, used to function at night, is regarded as the best in the world.
A second Blue on Blue from Afghanistan
If one views the documentary of the killing of the American football star, Pat Tillman" in Afghanistan, it shows how despite the very best of intentions, these things happen. Please to remember the brother of the fellow killed was in the very same unit and involved in that combat action during which Tillman died after being hit by .50 caliber fire from a Humvee trying to escape an ambush.
The chain of events in Tillman's death paint a situation where there was either mis-communication or no communication during a running gun battle between two Friendly units and two enemy units.
The documentary included interviews of many of the people in the unit who were involved in the action. It is heart breaking to listen to their accounts all the while knowing what the outcome was.
It should be a case study on how confusing things can be in combat despite thinking you know what the heck is going on when you really do not.
For those of you who are not familar withe what happened....
Convoy made up of two groups of Humvees and civilian vehicles are having to traverse a canyon with steep hills on either side. The road snakes back and forth along the narrow bottom of the canyon. The trailing half is stopped by a broken down civvie truck and the lead half drives on out of the canyon and is out of sight of the other part of the column. Bad guys on each side of the canyon kick off an ambush using RPG's and small arms fire to include light machine guns....the column under attack is blocked by the Civvie truck. After a bit....the civvie truck is moved to the side of the road and the column moves out towards the lead part of the column.
The lead column sees and hears tracers and gunfire but cannot see the other half of the unit in contact. They move to either side of the road on the hillsides leading up to the top of the two ridges and move to engage the ambushers. Tillman with an Afghani soldier go on the left side of the ridge as they face the direction of the ambush. These troops then engage the ambush just as the stopped column is making its way out. The vehicles are returning fire against the ambushers.
As the column passes Tillman's position (with the setting sun behind him and blinding the the vehicle gunners....the Afghani firing an AK engages the ambushers on the hillside near Tillman and himself. A Humvee gunner sees muzzle flashes and hears the sound of the AK being fired....directs his .50 Cal M2 fire towards that and kills both the Afghani and Tillman.
The column moving out of the valley while shooting their way out....did not know the other half of the unit was returning to their location to help break the ambush.
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Very unfortunate example.
"They blew up their poster boy," Tillman's father, Patrick, a San Jose lawyer, told the Washington Post last week. He joined his former wife to demand accountability for the latest military cover-up to happen on Commander in Chief Bush's watch. High-ranking Army officials, he said, told "outright lies."
"After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this," Tillman said. "They purposely interfered with the investigation .... I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out."
"They blew up their poster boy," Tillman's father, Patrick, a San Jose lawyer, told the Washington Post last week. He joined his former wife to demand accountability for the latest military cover-up to happen on Commander in Chief Bush's watch. High-ranking Army officials, he said, told "outright lies."
"After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this," Tillman said. "They purposely interfered with the investigation .... I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out."
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SASless, I think a major difference here is that in the engagements you discuss there was an active firefight in progress with people making truly split second decisions. That is the fog of war and even a civilian could understand it.
The A10 case doesn't really fit in with that type of scenario as far as most contributors to this thread seem to be concerned, and from the transcript the pilots seem to take a little over five minutes to make the decision to engage.
Doubts must exist over the suitability of the two pilots involved in terms of their decision making capabilities. BBC R4 is rumouring that one of those involved was subsequently promoted to full colonel. Hopefully he will be able to lead his men with the full benefit of his experiences.
The A10 case doesn't really fit in with that type of scenario as far as most contributors to this thread seem to be concerned, and from the transcript the pilots seem to take a little over five minutes to make the decision to engage.
Doubts must exist over the suitability of the two pilots involved in terms of their decision making capabilities. BBC R4 is rumouring that one of those involved was subsequently promoted to full colonel. Hopefully he will be able to lead his men with the full benefit of his experiences.
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SASless
In answer to your questions re. the Challengers, as with the main topic of this post, may I refer you to Appendix 2 of the document which I quoted previously:
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/n...06/0506936.pdf
In answer to your questions re. the Challengers, as with the main topic of this post, may I refer you to Appendix 2 of the document which I quoted previously:
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/n...06/0506936.pdf
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I can't be the only one here who finds the low brow commentary from 'The Sun' to the comments made on the tape highly distateful, seems designed to inflame the reader without any objective thought, taking the 'how could they do this to 'our boys' approach it always adopts. I find it pathetic. It was a tragic mistake, and hindsight is a wonderful thing. Does The Sun ever report anything objectively at a higher level than the playground? 
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NAO report
Interesting read, lots of jam tomorrow, in the meantime we (the UK) will rely on training, tactics and not a little good luck. If as the report acknowledges UK forces will be operating in concert with Allies, primarily US what training and tactics is jointly carried out to provide all offensive air assets in theatre with the requisite skills to minimise such events?
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and from the transcript the pilots seem to take a little over five minutes to make the decision to engage.
The pilot(s) must live with their decision and they were immediately aware of how poor it was. I can't get away from the feeling they knew it was poor...
Gentleman Aviator
Don't think IFF would necessarily help. If it were to come into use, and be relied upon, the downside is that a non-squawker would be assumed to be hostile - even if the kit was u/s ......
....... Tonka ........ Patriot ........ Ali ...........
....... Tonka ........ Patriot ........ Ali ...........
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Comment in The Times on this....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle1350515.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle1350515.ece
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IFF certainly would not be of any use directly to the A10 pilots. No data link capability. An unusual oversight on behalf of US DoD. Maybe they will revisit this capability gap. The international outcry must be causing a major headache. It was all over CNN in the States when I left on Tuesday. Can't see the coroner holding back on his criticism now. This is already a diplomatic incident and we have not heard his conclusion yet.
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Unfair
Nige,
Knowing your experience as a CAS pilot, I think its unfair to use the word "RECKLESS".
The boys made an honest mistake, like I have, like you must have during your FJ trg, and like every pilot does. They were not trying to commit a blue on blue. Their mental model was skewed and they may have made the scenario fit their own mental model, but this is in the realms of human psychology. If you were to ask Jon Chappelow, I'm betting he would say that the human mind has a propensity for making these kind of mistakes.
Its very, very sad that this has happened, but I relly don't think its right to use the word "RECKLESS"; rather we should use the word "HUMAN FACTORS", exacerbated by incomplete information. I don't like the word "RECKLESS" in a similar way that we don't like the accusation that the two Mull of Kintyre Chinook pilots were "NEGLIGENT".
I've done thousands of hours of CAS and I think that, until we have a 100% solution of perhaps the Blue Force Tracker type, then it'll happen again.
Cheers, and good luck to all our people out there.
Knowing your experience as a CAS pilot, I think its unfair to use the word "RECKLESS".
The boys made an honest mistake, like I have, like you must have during your FJ trg, and like every pilot does. They were not trying to commit a blue on blue. Their mental model was skewed and they may have made the scenario fit their own mental model, but this is in the realms of human psychology. If you were to ask Jon Chappelow, I'm betting he would say that the human mind has a propensity for making these kind of mistakes.
Its very, very sad that this has happened, but I relly don't think its right to use the word "RECKLESS"; rather we should use the word "HUMAN FACTORS", exacerbated by incomplete information. I don't like the word "RECKLESS" in a similar way that we don't like the accusation that the two Mull of Kintyre Chinook pilots were "NEGLIGENT".
I've done thousands of hours of CAS and I think that, until we have a 100% solution of perhaps the Blue Force Tracker type, then it'll happen again.
Cheers, and good luck to all our people out there.
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I wonder what would the US medias response been if it had been a troops of LAV25's being engaged by RAF Harriers with a similar result and similar mistakes being made. I'm sure the outcry and demands for action would have been as loud and probably 2 RAF pilots facing extradition.
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One of the US pilots has allegedly been identified:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...8/npilot08.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...8/npilot08.xml
<Nigeglb said: ....Can't see the coroner holding back on his criticism now. This is already a diplomatic incident and we have not heard his conclusion yet.>
Well he's holding back for 6 weeks AFAIK, as that is how long the inquest is adjourned for. I also understand that his contract as Assistant Coroner is not to be renewed. A pity, we need good men like him to stand up to the disreputable rogues that roam the corridors of power. Let us hope he does not decide that he needs to spend more time with his family before this case is through. If it was not for him and the "criminals" (from the DoD, talk about pots and kettles!) at the Sun, Mrs Hull and the rest of us would be none the wiser. So much for open government. If this incident, and the blatant whitewash by the USAF, DoD, MOD, Bliar et al does not make us think twice before going out on another special relationship spree, we deserve all that befalls us. All in this coalition are equal, some a good deal more than others!
Well he's holding back for 6 weeks AFAIK, as that is how long the inquest is adjourned for. I also understand that his contract as Assistant Coroner is not to be renewed. A pity, we need good men like him to stand up to the disreputable rogues that roam the corridors of power. Let us hope he does not decide that he needs to spend more time with his family before this case is through. If it was not for him and the "criminals" (from the DoD, talk about pots and kettles!) at the Sun, Mrs Hull and the rest of us would be none the wiser. So much for open government. If this incident, and the blatant whitewash by the USAF, DoD, MOD, Bliar et al does not make us think twice before going out on another special relationship spree, we deserve all that befalls us. All in this coalition are equal, some a good deal more than others!