DXB - Vectors or Hold
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DXB - Vectors or Hold
There are, I think, 3 ATC watches in DXB ATC and they all do things slightly differently (legally
) to move us around when we are inbound.
One of the differences is the style of delaying you. Some have started to use the hold and some vector you all over the UAE.
Personally, I would rather go into the hold with an EAT. With that, I can plan ahead knowing track miles and time/fuel etc.
However, that's just my opinion
, what's yours?
) to move us around when we are inbound.One of the differences is the style of delaying you. Some have started to use the hold and some vector you all over the UAE.
Personally, I would rather go into the hold with an EAT. With that, I can plan ahead knowing track miles and time/fuel etc.
However, that's just my opinion
, what's yours?
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Hold, thats what it's there for and it keeps you in the loop as to where you are in the queue. Works well in LHR and then the pilot can plan, ATC knows where they all are and everyone is happy. Its getting bad on the way in, "turn R 90 Deg, decel to min clean.....turn left 180 Deg speed 280". Whats wrong with a nice organised hold, especially when you are tired its nice to let the AP fly you round, rather than manipulate the LRLRLR turns, wondering where you are in the pattern/plan. Finally and most importantly, not RAVEC everyone around means a lot less RT chatter and less room for mistakes from everyone.
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Holds rather than vectoring please - but not half way to Karachi or Theran as we currenty do (Bubin and Desdi).
Coming in from Europe last week during the midnight rush, I was sent to Bubin - 60 miles the other side of Dubai - to hold. Granted, we didn't quite get there before being turned back for the approach.
It never ceases to amaze me how EK goes to such great lengths to have us save fuel... except at the home port. The early descents, (I heard one aircraft being given FL230 30 miles before ORSAR last night with RW30 in use at Dubai), the remote holding, but most importantly, the drag it in vectoring results in all those savings in fuel elsewhere - and more - being squandered every night of the week by standard arrivals into Dubai. On average, in my experience, you need nearly twice as much fuel from top of descent into Dubai than at any other port in the EK network - that's almost two tonnes as opposed to around one tonne, which is not inconsiderable.
The guys on Dubai Approach do a damned fine job handling the amount of traffic they're presented with every night given the p***poor hand of cards they're dealt by the Viking gentleman in Abu Dhabi. I just can't understand why TCAS or someone high up in EK doesn't demand Abu Dhabi gets the hell out of the equation and lets Dubai handle the incoming traffic efficiently. The current procedures are costing EK (and every other user of Dubai) a veritable fortune in unnecessary fuel burn.
End of rant.
Coming in from Europe last week during the midnight rush, I was sent to Bubin - 60 miles the other side of Dubai - to hold. Granted, we didn't quite get there before being turned back for the approach.
It never ceases to amaze me how EK goes to such great lengths to have us save fuel... except at the home port. The early descents, (I heard one aircraft being given FL230 30 miles before ORSAR last night with RW30 in use at Dubai), the remote holding, but most importantly, the drag it in vectoring results in all those savings in fuel elsewhere - and more - being squandered every night of the week by standard arrivals into Dubai. On average, in my experience, you need nearly twice as much fuel from top of descent into Dubai than at any other port in the EK network - that's almost two tonnes as opposed to around one tonne, which is not inconsiderable.
The guys on Dubai Approach do a damned fine job handling the amount of traffic they're presented with every night given the p***poor hand of cards they're dealt by the Viking gentleman in Abu Dhabi. I just can't understand why TCAS or someone high up in EK doesn't demand Abu Dhabi gets the hell out of the equation and lets Dubai handle the incoming traffic efficiently. The current procedures are costing EK (and every other user of Dubai) a veritable fortune in unnecessary fuel burn.
End of rant.
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Dubai's problem is that they only have limited control of the stack. They have constantly been refused control of the arrival holds by Mr ATC at Abu Dhabi. Holds work for me and speaking to the ATCers it would work for them as well.
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Back to this thread again..........and I left 2 years ago!! You're right the ATCO's would love control of a closer hold, as it is in the rest of the world but it's that bloody danish git in Abu Dhabi. It's all politics and whose built the biggest empire, won't change until EK create a big enough stink in the corriders of power.
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The holds again!!! We all agree holding is best for everybody, that is except for Mr. Dane at abu dhabi. Dubai needs holds in the TMA, especially in single runway ops. Classic example last night, no outbounds so 5 mile gaps order of the day, however by the time ACC vectored the stuff out of the holds and gave it to us in approach, we had outbounds at the hold!!!
ATC isn't rocket science, holding by approach controllers works everwhere else, why can't Mr. Dane see that I wonder!!!!
Amazes me how both ACC and Dubai provide the service level we do with these procedures, however compared to other ATC units our service provision is crap.
To sum ATC in the UAE;
Safe, Orderly expeditious, SAFE-just (But we have our moments), orderly (hardly), expeditious (never).
ATC isn't rocket science, holding by approach controllers works everwhere else, why can't Mr. Dane see that I wonder!!!!
Amazes me how both ACC and Dubai provide the service level we do with these procedures, however compared to other ATC units our service provision is crap.
To sum ATC in the UAE;
Safe, Orderly expeditious, SAFE-just (But we have our moments), orderly (hardly), expeditious (never).
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After being vectored 30NM left then 20 right the other night and told to keep my speed up, I finally lost my patience and asked why I couldn't slow up. The answer from UAE control was that If I slowed up it would have a knock on effect for following traffic! I just couldn't grasp his logic I am on descent and any other traffic behind would also be on descent and we are all heading to the same or neighbouring airports and presumably end up on final approach with the correct spacing, so why, why, why do I have to tour the UAE airspace at high speed??? Please some one explain this preference for fuel wasting. I try really hard to remaine objective and calm with these guys but after spending your whole day trying to save fuel and time they just don't seem to be interested in playing the same game. 
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Until the powers that be institute proper flow management, we at the UAE ACC will vector, speed control, hold for 10,15 or 20 mile trails as DXB require then you go over to 124.9 no speed control direct yada yada. Keep telling your bosses at Emirates/Arabia etc how much money it is costing them by having this bazaar (bizarre) mentality to DXB flow and maybe they will wake up and fix it.
As for DXB having holds, more power to them
As for DXB having holds, more power to them
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Seems to me that rather than sending us messages about Tupolovs landing on the wrong runway, TCAS' credibility would soar with his troops if he sorted this one out without delay.
Emirates is the major 'end user' of the 'product' - ATC - into Dubai, and frankly, from an end user's perspective, the product is badly in need of recall and replacement.
Surely if EK senior management went to the Sheikh (pick a Sheikh, any Sheikh), and told him the current system is costing his airline a fortune in unnecessary fuel bills, and that even the poor sods providing the 'service' agree it's a disaster on very rickety wheels, said Sheikh would simply tell the Dane down in Abu Dhabi to sort it out poste haste.
'They' say that EK management read these posts. If that's the case, please prove it to be so by sorting this current disaster out. It's a win-win situation for everybody but the Empire Builders. Happy chappies at bothe ends of the microphone and bigger bonuses for senior management.
Emirates is the major 'end user' of the 'product' - ATC - into Dubai, and frankly, from an end user's perspective, the product is badly in need of recall and replacement.
Surely if EK senior management went to the Sheikh (pick a Sheikh, any Sheikh), and told him the current system is costing his airline a fortune in unnecessary fuel bills, and that even the poor sods providing the 'service' agree it's a disaster on very rickety wheels, said Sheikh would simply tell the Dane down in Abu Dhabi to sort it out poste haste.
'They' say that EK management read these posts. If that's the case, please prove it to be so by sorting this current disaster out. It's a win-win situation for everybody but the Empire Builders. Happy chappies at bothe ends of the microphone and bigger bonuses for senior management.
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Slots!
Airport movement should be restricted by its capacity and accordingly allocate slots instead of holds or long vectors!
I guess that's a more political, then technical subject, isn't?
LNB
I guess that's a more political, then technical subject, isn't?
LNB
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Flow control..
I can feel several Capt's special reports comming up about this, hope it helps!
The one and only time I got to visit the shiny new ATC unit in DXB was quite surprizing. Buried away in the bowls of the tower were a bunch of hard working guys and gals staring at antquated out of focus screens that made me want to puke up after just a few minutes. I guess once your eyesight goes it prabably looks OK. The powers that be apparently didn't want to update something that nobody else could see!!!
The one and only time I got to visit the shiny new ATC unit in DXB was quite surprizing. Buried away in the bowls of the tower were a bunch of hard working guys and gals staring at antquated out of focus screens that made me want to puke up after just a few minutes. I guess once your eyesight goes it prabably looks OK. The powers that be apparently didn't want to update something that nobody else could see!!!
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LDG NO BLUE
A bit difficult in a company that, because of its geographical position, has two major peak flows with (at a guess), 70% or more of its a/c coming in or out of DXB.
Single runway ops does'nt help
Time for all those CSRs
A bit difficult in a company that, because of its geographical position, has two major peak flows with (at a guess), 70% or more of its a/c coming in or out of DXB.
Single runway ops does'nt help
Time for all those CSRs
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this old chestnut...???
CSRs do jack schidt.
I prefer vectors if delay must be given. Who wants to go around in circles? Just take a little "extra" for mum and the kids and enjoy the tour.
If they are going to sort out efficiencies, let's start with a freakin' ACD frequency, so when you roll off the high-speed and stop just short of "K", you can actually get a word in instead of listening to tw.ats saying:
"Dubai ground Air India ***???"
"Air India *** go ahead/pass msg"
"Air india *** for mumbai mumbai, request clearance?"
(no more callsigns......)
"What's your bay?"
"Bay F4"
"What type?"
"Boing 747"
"What is requested level?"
"FL 350?"
"Dubai ground, assman *** request taxi???"
"Standby..."
"Go ahead??"
"Dubai ground, air india ***???"
I prefer vectors if delay must be given. Who wants to go around in circles? Just take a little "extra" for mum and the kids and enjoy the tour.
If they are going to sort out efficiencies, let's start with a freakin' ACD frequency, so when you roll off the high-speed and stop just short of "K", you can actually get a word in instead of listening to tw.ats saying:
"Dubai ground Air India ***???"
"Air India *** go ahead/pass msg"
"Air india *** for mumbai mumbai, request clearance?"
(no more callsigns......)
"What's your bay?"
"Bay F4"
"What type?"
"Boing 747"
"What is requested level?"
"FL 350?"
"Dubai ground, assman *** request taxi???"
"Standby..."
"Go ahead??"
"Dubai ground, air india ***???"
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2nd top item on my wish list - data link for pre departure clearances at DXB, for the reason given above. The (lack of) self discipline displayed by far too many users on DXB GND freq is on a par with the self discipline you see among the majority of drivers on Shk Zayed Rd.
I never cease to be amazed at the number of overtransmissions you hear in any given fifteen minute period as people come on freq and start talking without listening out, and then don't give the required information in one hit - exactly as described above.
It must drive the poor bloody ATCOs spare.
I never cease to be amazed at the number of overtransmissions you hear in any given fifteen minute period as people come on freq and start talking without listening out, and then don't give the required information in one hit - exactly as described above.
It must drive the poor bloody ATCOs spare.
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same old same old.........
pilots- some prefer vectors, others prefer to hold, some prefer to fly their own speed, others prefer their speed isued as they take off from whogivesa@#$% and every single one of you think you should be number one even though there are 10 a/c in front of you......
easy solution is enroute slot times. you make the time you get your slot to land at a set speed/decent profile. you cant make the slot time or cant comply with the speed/decent profile you go into an enroute hold away from the arrivial and wait there till a slot opens up. simple.
on another note
every night we are supposed to give dubai 10nm in trail (rwy 30) through desdi and 15nm through bubin no closing between all a/c be they props or jets. these are the rules that we have to operate under as issued by both dubai and uae acc.
without fail dubai app call us up with "we need anywhere between 15nm to 30nm from 1830(ish) both gates" with the occasional "everything 230-250 ias by desdi/bubin" when asked why we are told reasons rangeing from "it might get busy" to "there are a couple of depatures to go". so we go to the effort of vectoring/holding/speedcontrol to give the required spacing. then after much work the a/c are transfered to dubai app. dub on first contact issue "cancel speed track direct to......."
result dub are called a fantastic bunch of guys/girls and why dont they do all the sequencing cause we always get this from them, when in reality they are the ones asking for double or triple the required spacing.
uae acc are called a bunch of idiots who shouldn't be allowed to talk to a/c when in reality the vectors/speed/holds are due to the extra spacing requirements given to us by the dubai app controllers.
this will of course go in one ear and out the other along with all the basic r/t and airmanship that everyone is supposed to have but there you go. its only the middle east so what does it matter..........
pilots- some prefer vectors, others prefer to hold, some prefer to fly their own speed, others prefer their speed isued as they take off from whogivesa@#$% and every single one of you think you should be number one even though there are 10 a/c in front of you......
easy solution is enroute slot times. you make the time you get your slot to land at a set speed/decent profile. you cant make the slot time or cant comply with the speed/decent profile you go into an enroute hold away from the arrivial and wait there till a slot opens up. simple.
on another note
every night we are supposed to give dubai 10nm in trail (rwy 30) through desdi and 15nm through bubin no closing between all a/c be they props or jets. these are the rules that we have to operate under as issued by both dubai and uae acc.
without fail dubai app call us up with "we need anywhere between 15nm to 30nm from 1830(ish) both gates" with the occasional "everything 230-250 ias by desdi/bubin" when asked why we are told reasons rangeing from "it might get busy" to "there are a couple of depatures to go". so we go to the effort of vectoring/holding/speedcontrol to give the required spacing. then after much work the a/c are transfered to dubai app. dub on first contact issue "cancel speed track direct to......."
result dub are called a fantastic bunch of guys/girls and why dont they do all the sequencing cause we always get this from them, when in reality they are the ones asking for double or triple the required spacing.
uae acc are called a bunch of idiots who shouldn't be allowed to talk to a/c when in reality the vectors/speed/holds are due to the extra spacing requirements given to us by the dubai app controllers.
this will of course go in one ear and out the other along with all the basic r/t and airmanship that everyone is supposed to have but there you go. its only the middle east so what does it matter..........
Last edited by Ali Bin Somewhere; 1st Jul 2006 at 03:57.
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Ali Bin Somewhere, the best argument Ive heard for Dubai having holds in the TMA, the conditions you describe are a great indication of how these antiquated procedures are failing!!!
Find it amazing how night after night you vector A/C all over the sky, working far too hard, costing the airlines money, when a "route to .... Hold maintain .... Feet and contact Dubai approach" would solve all the problems.
Mr Dane, either pay a visit to the London TMA or just leave!!!!
Find it amazing how night after night you vector A/C all over the sky, working far too hard, costing the airlines money, when a "route to .... Hold maintain .... Feet and contact Dubai approach" would solve all the problems.
Mr Dane, either pay a visit to the London TMA or just leave!!!!
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what would solve some of the probs nimmer me old son is dubai accepting 10nm as they are supposed to instead of this 15,20,25,30nm spacing we have to give "in case it gets busy/there might be some depatures" . 
perfect example my first night shift 7 inbound all approx 8-12nm in trail. would have worked a treat with some speeds till dubai asked for 30nm in trail as they had some depatures pending. in one easy step we have gone from a 70nm trail to a 210nm trail. so vectors holds and speeds given with the correct spacing handed off to dubai. on first contact dubai did the usual "dct no speed". well i suppose if there are ALOT of depatures going and being single rwy ops i can sort of understand some increased spacing. but 30nm?????
total count for depatures within the hour period from the start of the sequence??? 4.........
as has been said earlier you want the holds do a saftey/economy case, prove your point and go to the bosses. i hope you enjoy them.
I AM NOT A DEFENDER OF THE GREAT DANE AND HIS POLICIES but he didn't just take the airspace/holds etc from dubai. the bosses in dubai had to agree and sign them over. they are as much to blame as he is.
perfect example my first night shift 7 inbound all approx 8-12nm in trail. would have worked a treat with some speeds till dubai asked for 30nm in trail as they had some depatures pending. in one easy step we have gone from a 70nm trail to a 210nm trail. so vectors holds and speeds given with the correct spacing handed off to dubai. on first contact dubai did the usual "dct no speed". well i suppose if there are ALOT of depatures going and being single rwy ops i can sort of understand some increased spacing. but 30nm?????
total count for depatures within the hour period from the start of the sequence??? 4.........
as has been said earlier you want the holds do a saftey/economy case, prove your point and go to the bosses. i hope you enjoy them.
I AM NOT A DEFENDER OF THE GREAT DANE AND HIS POLICIES but he didn't just take the airspace/holds etc from dubai. the bosses in dubai had to agree and sign them over. they are as much to blame as he is.
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At the end of the day nothing will be solved at this level.
Whilst the odd manager may read it and have a giggle at the power they have to make life difficult for operatives and operators alike, it will take the company's to formally complain before anything will ever get done.
The reality is with
(1) An Open Skies Policy (note here please Emirates Operators that this means ANYBODY can come here and is afforded the same priority!!!!!!);
(2) Works In Progress that should have occurred 10 years ago when we decided to make this the hub of the world;
(3) Antiquated equipment;
(4) Understaffing;
(5) Outdated and Dangerous Procedures;
(6) No Slot Times
(7) Limited or No Dialog with adjacent units or sectors;
(8) Independant Agenda's within the UAE States
(9) Non Compatability of Radars and Associated Equipment in our own Emirates; and importantly....
(7) No Industry Goodwill
..........we are destined to bleat at each other on PPrune and cry into our keyboards for a long time to come (as the England soccer fans are probably doing in public as we speak )
Sorry team, but there is no answer to this in the short term.
Smile, wave and log onto your offshore accounts and think of your next holiday. Welcome to the Middle East.
Whilst the odd manager may read it and have a giggle at the power they have to make life difficult for operatives and operators alike, it will take the company's to formally complain before anything will ever get done.
The reality is with
(1) An Open Skies Policy (note here please Emirates Operators that this means ANYBODY can come here and is afforded the same priority!!!!!!);
(2) Works In Progress that should have occurred 10 years ago when we decided to make this the hub of the world;
(3) Antiquated equipment;
(4) Understaffing;
(5) Outdated and Dangerous Procedures;
(6) No Slot Times
(7) Limited or No Dialog with adjacent units or sectors;
(8) Independant Agenda's within the UAE States
(9) Non Compatability of Radars and Associated Equipment in our own Emirates; and importantly....
(7) No Industry Goodwill
..........we are destined to bleat at each other on PPrune and cry into our keyboards for a long time to come (as the England soccer fans are probably doing in public as we speak
)Sorry team, but there is no answer to this in the short term.
Smile, wave and log onto your offshore accounts and think of your next holiday. Welcome to the Middle East.
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Ali,
My old mate, you describe a fine example of the differing standards throughout the watches. Some want 8 mile gaps for departures, other controllers happy with 6, some watches put loads of flow rates on, sometimes without even looking at the prevailing traffic situation, others prefer to be flexible.
hey you know this your on the receiving end, but why you may ask? well one of the problems is that NOBODY fails to validate because we need staff. The procedures help to keep the standrards low, as they are based around the lowest standard, examples;
5 aircraft sector loading on arrivals, total crap, but helps those that can't cope. Gap sizes for departures, 6 works but you have to be skillfull, 8 is for the lazy controller.Needing a runway length between a departure and arrival, because some don't know what to do in the event of a late go around!!!
Plus combine the above with incident investigation that automatically suspends the controller for 6 days, and you have a unit that has a system that has contollers controlling on fear of doing anything wrong. and having no inclination in wanting to move traffic.
Will things change, not in my lifetime, back to the real world for me!!!!
My old mate, you describe a fine example of the differing standards throughout the watches. Some want 8 mile gaps for departures, other controllers happy with 6, some watches put loads of flow rates on, sometimes without even looking at the prevailing traffic situation, others prefer to be flexible.
hey you know this your on the receiving end, but why you may ask? well one of the problems is that NOBODY fails to validate because we need staff. The procedures help to keep the standrards low, as they are based around the lowest standard, examples;
5 aircraft sector loading on arrivals, total crap, but helps those that can't cope. Gap sizes for departures, 6 works but you have to be skillfull, 8 is for the lazy controller.Needing a runway length between a departure and arrival, because some don't know what to do in the event of a late go around!!!
Plus combine the above with incident investigation that automatically suspends the controller for 6 days, and you have a unit that has a system that has contollers controlling on fear of doing anything wrong. and having no inclination in wanting to move traffic.
Will things change, not in my lifetime, back to the real world for me!!!!