Fragrant HarbourA forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.
I've been a member of the HKAOA for more than 10 years now but I'm seriously considering quitting.
I watched guys leave because they disagreed with the direction the AOA was taking or they didn't want to pay the fees to support the 49ers and a hundred other reasons. My stance was always you don't quit because you just weaken the union.
Watching the last couple of presidents give away so many bargaining chips while promising to talk about pay and then having 3% imposed in a new COS was just too much for me.
People will say you need to be a member for the protection offered if you bend an aeroplane but I've watched this company sack and demote pilots and the AOA has been powerless to do a thing to help them.
Then there's the loss of licence protection. But I can still get that without being a member.
Others will say without the union there will be no one to negotiate on our behalf. But this union has negotiated so badly in my opinion I'd rather they didn't. Giving away 5-4-3, direct entry FOs and Captains, the 49ers deal etc, etc. And all this to get 3% after 7 years and 0% for the A scales.
So as far as I can see the AOA is useless. And I just can't see the point of paying for something that is useless.
Can someone please remind me why I shouldn't quit because I've lost my faith.
While I disagreed with most of the last committees direction, one must remember the AOA isn't the committee, it is the members and the members either voted in some of the things you mentioned or the company forced it upon us and there was absolutely nothing we could do. I would rather the small cost it is to be a member and have my say than not being a member and not having a say.
Yes I recall hearing that comment as well, about third hand mind you. Just as well he didn't stand for another term because the bulk of the membership had had a gut full of the direction he and a few others were taking us. While I don't think the new president or committee can pull a rabbit out their collective hats, simply because of membership numbers, they definately appear to be wanting to listen to the membership this time. A good start in my opinion.
Stick with it. You do not have to agree with the direction of the committee and their politics. You join the AOA because when you slide gracefully off a runway in a foreign land there will be a legal representative in that country to try to get you out of jail, and to bring you food if they cannot. IFALPA works at times like that.
Your company will be embroiled in a political dance and as you are expendable in the big scheme of things will most likely leave you twisting in the wind.
It is not expensive insurance to be part of a bigger organisation.
I get your sentiment. I understand where you're coming from. I felt exactly the same way.
I never quit though, because, at the core of my being I know that: good or bad leadership, collectively we will always do better as a unified body than as individuals fighting against the management alone.
Stick it out, see how this new committee takes on the job. Let them know what you want, let them know how you want to see things go. The sqeaky oil gets the grease, and if the committee knows what it is that the membership body is willing to fight for, then it will make their job so much easier going forward.
I too am sick of it all but I quickly realised that whilst the AOA are not exactly on track it is us who are the yellow bellies and who ultimately have control.
i quit after the previous president 'imposed' a double vote on supporting the 49-ers.Obviously the first result didn't satisfy him or the company.if you're expecting protection from anything as a member...think again! just what..in the the last 8 years.. has anyone been protected from exactly? 5-4-3? back to back long hauls patterns(we used to get LH trip-5 days off, LH trip 5days off and now it's back to back trips and 8 days off...a real bargain...not!) Free reserve? .. a real deal O days after Long Hauls...wonderful Proferring at 1,000/hr but being paid for 'G' days at 2.5% regardless of trip length....awesome. A load of hogwash in the ops manual about fatigue protection actual rostering totally disregarding it. Direct entry crew and DE f/o's being upgraded to captain in the blink of an eye....very nice. Inundated with calls on days off or immediately after returning from trips to 'ask for those favours'...kidding right? Tell me please what EXACTLY has the AoA DONE for anyone recently.....except appease the company and throw away all our hard won conditions?
I feel sad and less hope when I think about all the stuff we negociated away, wasting at least 3 years of great negociating time and not doing anything to stand up against i.e direct entry commanders and RA 65..
Whats the remedy is the question to blunderbus and the other who quit AOA?
Thanks to everyboby for not hijacking this tread and the brave unselfish people who joined the new GC.
People should also understand it's what the AOA have managed to stop the company doing.
Your housing allowance would have been frozen at 32,000 if it was not for the AOA
You would be flying 1000 hours a year if it was not for the AOA.
You would not be able to rquest a trip if it was not for the AOA,
and there are numerous other things the AOA and their lawyers have done to stop management greed.
Sure the AOA is not the greatest thing since sliced bread BUT they have slowed the rot to your COS.
Its the only voice we have and the AOA quitters over the past 10 years have done the most damage to our COS and not the AOA.
A big thank you to the guys who put their time in on the committee trying to help stem the managements greed. You will have my support, and those of my friends here at CX.
We had our chance a year ago. Now with the world situation, fuel, economics etc... we have lost our last chance. When all the guys and gals were leaving for Oasis/UPS etc.. we could have done something. When we signed RP04 and then RP07 we gave it all up. We will never have another chance like that. Direct Entry Captains, let me say it again DIRECT ENTRY CAPTAIN'S. While guys get Cat U'd, B C and D'd and others fail, we are hiring DIRECT ENTRY CAPTAINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Oh and just for your info, there were guys who DID apply for the HKG base on cargo and were blown off for the DEC's. The info on those Oasis guys who took the positions no-one else applied for IS FALSE! When the AOA did nothing about that I knew t was over. I have given up on the AOA. I did my part for years and now know it has all been in vain. The violations of just the current agreements have been unprecedented. You can disagree or agree but we had our chance and the AOA will NEVER be able to really do anything for us again. Just wait till the cuts come, housing, pay etc... Shame really and you can thank S.T. He has been very instrumental in the rapid decay of things.
I'd say now ist the worst time for quitting, because I hope that with the new GC things will eventually start to head in the right direction. And the "we missed our chance last year" is only valid if you politely ask for more money. When will the company be more willing to give us something, whilst they're swimming in profits or when they're really depending on our good will?
BlunderBus, just looking at the track record of the AOA, makes for an easy decision to leave. There are a few dreamers out there that think the Association is actually protecting them from accidents in foreign countries and the company.
I dont know for a fact, im sure there will be many who would correct me, but has a CX crew ever been involved in an accident overseas where they were incarcerated and needed the AOA to come bail them out??? What would the AOA do even if that happened?
I've been very critical of the AOA, due to it being broken and useless. Im not however, anti-union. I just want one that I believe is looking out for the best interest of the pilot body they represent. We currently dont have that.
So by continuing to support the AOA you are basically saying that you are happy with all they have done for you in the past, and will do the same in the future. Voting with your feet, not unlike those who left the company, is the only way to show the AOA that you are feed up with their dismal performance.
Mass recruiting on the way!!! The "Surge" worked in Iraq, hope it helps us!!! Give the AoA another year and if you are not in it, join!!! New GC, new direction!!! Give em a year and see what happens, the company will be after cuts this year and we dont stand a chance if too many of you stand by on the fences, oh and yeah, good luck negotiating by yourself!! I have been frustrated in the past but am willing to keep trying because i dont like the alternative, the best way to test the AoA is to give them no excuses, 80-90% membership gives us strength, i hope the GC will know what to do with it!!! By not joining you are playing into the company's hands, maintaining a weak union and easy meat at the negotiating table!!!!! Non-members= helping company= lost opportunities
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