Should I Quit the HKAOA?
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Should I Quit the HKAOA?
I've been a member of the HKAOA for more than 10 years now but I'm seriously considering quitting.
I watched guys leave because they disagreed with the direction the AOA was taking or they didn't want to pay the fees to support the 49ers and a hundred other reasons. My stance was always you don't quit because you just weaken the union.
Watching the last couple of presidents give away so many bargaining chips while promising to talk about pay and then having 3% imposed in a new COS was just too much for me.
People will say you need to be a member for the protection offered if you bend an aeroplane but I've watched this company sack and demote pilots and the AOA has been powerless to do a thing to help them.
Then there's the loss of licence protection. But I can still get that without being a member.
Others will say without the union there will be no one to negotiate on our behalf. But this union has negotiated so badly in my opinion I'd rather they didn't. Giving away 5-4-3, direct entry FOs and Captains, the 49ers deal etc, etc. And all this to get 3% after 7 years and 0% for the A scales.
So as far as I can see the AOA is useless. And I just can't see the point of paying for something that is useless.
Can someone please remind me why I shouldn't quit because I've lost my faith.
I watched guys leave because they disagreed with the direction the AOA was taking or they didn't want to pay the fees to support the 49ers and a hundred other reasons. My stance was always you don't quit because you just weaken the union.
Watching the last couple of presidents give away so many bargaining chips while promising to talk about pay and then having 3% imposed in a new COS was just too much for me.
People will say you need to be a member for the protection offered if you bend an aeroplane but I've watched this company sack and demote pilots and the AOA has been powerless to do a thing to help them.
Then there's the loss of licence protection. But I can still get that without being a member.
Others will say without the union there will be no one to negotiate on our behalf. But this union has negotiated so badly in my opinion I'd rather they didn't. Giving away 5-4-3, direct entry FOs and Captains, the 49ers deal etc, etc. And all this to get 3% after 7 years and 0% for the A scales.
So as far as I can see the AOA is useless. And I just can't see the point of paying for something that is useless.
Can someone please remind me why I shouldn't quit because I've lost my faith.
While I disagreed with most of the last committees direction, one must remember the AOA isn't the committee, it is the members and the members either voted in some of the things you mentioned or the company forced it upon us and there was absolutely nothing we could do. I would rather the small cost it is to be a member and have my say than not being a member and not having a say.
rhoshamboe
Yes I recall hearing that comment as well, about third hand mind you. Just as well he didn't stand for another term because the bulk of the membership had had a gut full of the direction he and a few others were taking us. While I don't think the new president or committee can pull a rabbit out their collective hats, simply because of membership numbers, they definately appear to be wanting to listen to the membership this time. A good start in my opinion.
Yes I recall hearing that comment as well, about third hand mind you. Just as well he didn't stand for another term because the bulk of the membership had had a gut full of the direction he and a few others were taking us. While I don't think the new president or committee can pull a rabbit out their collective hats, simply because of membership numbers, they definately appear to be wanting to listen to the membership this time. A good start in my opinion.
Cool as a moosp
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Stick with it. You do not have to agree with the direction of the committee and their politics. You join the AOA because when you slide gracefully off a runway in a foreign land there will be a legal representative in that country to try to get you out of jail, and to bring you food if they cannot. IFALPA works at times like that.
Your company will be embroiled in a political dance and as you are expendable in the big scheme of things will most likely leave you twisting in the wind.
It is not expensive insurance to be part of a bigger organisation.
Your company will be embroiled in a political dance and as you are expendable in the big scheme of things will most likely leave you twisting in the wind.
It is not expensive insurance to be part of a bigger organisation.
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Stick with it!
I get your sentiment. I understand where you're coming from. I felt exactly the same way.
I never quit though, because, at the core of my being I know that: good or bad leadership, collectively we will always do better as a unified body than as individuals fighting against the management alone.
Stick it out, see how this new committee takes on the job. Let them know what you want, let them know how you want to see things go. The sqeaky oil gets the grease, and if the committee knows what it is that the membership body is willing to fight for, then it will make their job so much easier going forward.
Don't give up. Never give up!
I never quit though, because, at the core of my being I know that: good or bad leadership, collectively we will always do better as a unified body than as individuals fighting against the management alone.
Stick it out, see how this new committee takes on the job. Let them know what you want, let them know how you want to see things go. The sqeaky oil gets the grease, and if the committee knows what it is that the membership body is willing to fight for, then it will make their job so much easier going forward.
Don't give up. Never give up!
49-ers
i quit after the previous president 'imposed' a double vote on supporting the 49-ers.Obviously the first result didn't satisfy him or the company.if you're expecting protection from anything as a member...think again!
just what..in the the last 8 years.. has anyone been protected from exactly?
5-4-3? back to back long hauls patterns(we used to get LH trip-5 days off, LH trip 5days off and now it's back to back trips and 8 days off...a real bargain...not!)
Free reserve? .. a real deal
O days after Long Hauls...wonderful
Proferring at 1,000/hr but being paid for 'G' days at 2.5% regardless of trip length....awesome.
A load of hogwash in the ops manual about fatigue protection actual rostering totally disregarding it.
Direct entry crew and DE f/o's being upgraded to captain in the blink of an eye....very nice.
Inundated with calls on days off or immediately after returning from trips to 'ask for those favours'...kidding right?
Tell me please what EXACTLY has the AoA DONE for anyone recently.....except appease the company and throw away all our hard won conditions?
just what..in the the last 8 years.. has anyone been protected from exactly?
5-4-3? back to back long hauls patterns(we used to get LH trip-5 days off, LH trip 5days off and now it's back to back trips and 8 days off...a real bargain...not!)
Free reserve? .. a real deal
O days after Long Hauls...wonderful
Proferring at 1,000/hr but being paid for 'G' days at 2.5% regardless of trip length....awesome.
A load of hogwash in the ops manual about fatigue protection actual rostering totally disregarding it.
Direct entry crew and DE f/o's being upgraded to captain in the blink of an eye....very nice.
Inundated with calls on days off or immediately after returning from trips to 'ask for those favours'...kidding right?
Tell me please what EXACTLY has the AoA DONE for anyone recently.....except appease the company and throw away all our hard won conditions?
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Remedy !
Dear Blunderbus !
I feel sad and less hope when I think about all the stuff we negociated away, wasting at least 3 years of great negociating time and not doing anything to stand up against i.e direct entry commanders and RA 65..
Whats the remedy is the question to blunderbus and the other who quit AOA?
Thanks to everyboby for not hijacking this tread and the brave unselfish people who joined the new GC.
I feel sad and less hope when I think about all the stuff we negociated away, wasting at least 3 years of great negociating time and not doing anything to stand up against i.e direct entry commanders and RA 65..
Whats the remedy is the question to blunderbus and the other who quit AOA?
Thanks to everyboby for not hijacking this tread and the brave unselfish people who joined the new GC.
HKAOA quitters: now it's just each one of you, individually, of some 2,000 Cathay Pacific pilots, against the Swire Group.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Thank you AOA
People should also understand it's what the AOA have managed to stop the company doing.
Your housing allowance would have been frozen at 32,000 if it was not for the AOA
You would be flying 1000 hours a year if it was not for the AOA.
You would not be able to rquest a trip if it was not for the AOA,
and there are numerous other things the AOA and their lawyers have done to stop management greed.
Sure the AOA is not the greatest thing since sliced bread BUT they have slowed the rot to your COS.
Its the only voice we have and the AOA quitters over the past 10 years have done the most damage to our COS and not the AOA.
A big thank you to the guys who put their time in on the committee trying to help stem the managements greed. You will have my support, and those of my friends here at CX.
I have the Lead
Your housing allowance would have been frozen at 32,000 if it was not for the AOA
You would be flying 1000 hours a year if it was not for the AOA.
You would not be able to rquest a trip if it was not for the AOA,
and there are numerous other things the AOA and their lawyers have done to stop management greed.
Sure the AOA is not the greatest thing since sliced bread BUT they have slowed the rot to your COS.
Its the only voice we have and the AOA quitters over the past 10 years have done the most damage to our COS and not the AOA.
A big thank you to the guys who put their time in on the committee trying to help stem the managements greed. You will have my support, and those of my friends here at CX.
I have the Lead
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We had our chance
We had our chance a year ago. Now with the world situation, fuel, economics etc... we have lost our last chance. When all the guys and gals were leaving for Oasis/UPS etc.. we could have done something. When we signed RP04 and then RP07 we gave it all up. We will never have another chance like that. Direct Entry Captains, let me say it again DIRECT ENTRY CAPTAIN'S. While guys get Cat U'd, B C and D'd and others fail, we are hiring DIRECT ENTRY CAPTAINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Oh and just for your info, there were guys who DID apply for the HKG base on cargo and were blown off for the DEC's. The info on those Oasis guys who took the positions no-one else applied for IS FALSE! When the AOA did nothing about that I knew t was over. I have given up on the AOA. I did my part for years and now know it has all been in vain. The violations of just the current agreements have been unprecedented. You can disagree or agree but we had our chance and the AOA will NEVER be able to really do anything for us again. Just wait till the cuts come, housing, pay etc... Shame really and you can thank S.T. He has been very instrumental in the rapid decay of things.
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BlunderBus, just looking at the track record of the AOA, makes for an easy decision to leave. There are a few dreamers out there that think the Association is actually protecting them from accidents in foreign countries and the company.
I dont know for a fact, im sure there will be many who would correct me, but has a CX crew ever been involved in an accident overseas where they were incarcerated and needed the AOA to come bail them out??? What would the AOA do even if that happened?
I've been very critical of the AOA, due to it being broken and useless. Im not however, anti-union. I just want one that I believe is looking out for the best interest of the pilot body they represent. We currently dont have that.
So by continuing to support the AOA you are basically saying that you are happy with all they have done for you in the past, and will do the same in the future. Voting with your feet, not unlike those who left the company, is the only way to show the AOA that you are feed up with their dismal performance.
PX
I dont know for a fact, im sure there will be many who would correct me, but has a CX crew ever been involved in an accident overseas where they were incarcerated and needed the AOA to come bail them out??? What would the AOA do even if that happened?
I've been very critical of the AOA, due to it being broken and useless. Im not however, anti-union. I just want one that I believe is looking out for the best interest of the pilot body they represent. We currently dont have that.
So by continuing to support the AOA you are basically saying that you are happy with all they have done for you in the past, and will do the same in the future. Voting with your feet, not unlike those who left the company, is the only way to show the AOA that you are feed up with their dismal performance.
PX
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Mass recruiting on the way!!! The "Surge" worked in Iraq, hope it helps us!!!
Give the AoA another year and if you are not in it, join!!! New GC, new direction!!! Give em a year and see what happens, the company will be after cuts this year and we dont stand a chance if too many of you stand by on the fences, oh and yeah, good luck negotiating by yourself!!
I have been frustrated in the past but am willing to keep trying because i dont like the alternative, the best way to test the AoA is to give them no excuses, 80-90% membership gives us strength, i hope the GC will know what to do with it!!!
By not joining you are playing into the company's hands, maintaining a weak union and easy meat at the negotiating table!!!!!
Non-members= helping company= lost opportunities
Give the AoA another year and if you are not in it, join!!! New GC, new direction!!! Give em a year and see what happens, the company will be after cuts this year and we dont stand a chance if too many of you stand by on the fences, oh and yeah, good luck negotiating by yourself!!
I have been frustrated in the past but am willing to keep trying because i dont like the alternative, the best way to test the AoA is to give them no excuses, 80-90% membership gives us strength, i hope the GC will know what to do with it!!!
By not joining you are playing into the company's hands, maintaining a weak union and easy meat at the negotiating table!!!!!
Non-members= helping company= lost opportunities
zulapels
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Fac6, please let us all know how you intend to negotiate with the company on your CoS???
I conceded that in days gone the AoA havent met our expectations, but there does seem to be some new blood in the GC and i for one will always hold onto hope. I for one wouldnt even know where to start negotiating my own pay rise, so please advise your much better ideas or options.
I cannot see how quitting the union and sitting on our arses will help!!!
YES i do think we should keep trying!!
I conceded that in days gone the AoA havent met our expectations, but there does seem to be some new blood in the GC and i for one will always hold onto hope. I for one wouldnt even know where to start negotiating my own pay rise, so please advise your much better ideas or options.
I cannot see how quitting the union and sitting on our arses will help!!!
YES i do think we should keep trying!!
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Whats the GC's new direction?
Would be interested to hear what the new 'war cry' of the GC is. Where does the new pres stand on all the issues, I dont really know?. Perhaps someone can give us some idea?
Are we placing issues which affect the majority of the crew on the back burner whilst we dive headlong into pushing through RA65 to protect the minority of extendees and A scalers who havent quite saved enough money to the detriment of COS, upgrade time, basings etc etc of the majority/juniors?
Are we going to wait to fend off the incoming salvo of cuts, roster practises, housing allowance cuts etc etc, or are we going to be proactive and actually start throwing things first?
I also wonder what the mangement would think if all of a sudden there was a massive increase in AOA membership numbers, a gathering of troops so to speak. they may take notice, who knows
Are we placing issues which affect the majority of the crew on the back burner whilst we dive headlong into pushing through RA65 to protect the minority of extendees and A scalers who havent quite saved enough money to the detriment of COS, upgrade time, basings etc etc of the majority/juniors?
Are we going to wait to fend off the incoming salvo of cuts, roster practises, housing allowance cuts etc etc, or are we going to be proactive and actually start throwing things first?
I also wonder what the mangement would think if all of a sudden there was a massive increase in AOA membership numbers, a gathering of troops so to speak. they may take notice, who knows
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I am new to Cx and I plan to join the HKAOA.
I have been reading this forum for several years and I have a pretty good idea of peoples opinions regarding the current CoS and AOA. I don't however, understand what good could come of not joining or quitting the AOA. Would I be (or should I say, will I be) frustrated by losses in CoS and pay? Definitely. I fully understand that. Yet I still can't see the point. If you quit you are on you own. Sort of. The CoS and pay you will work with are still going to be negotiated by something you decided not to support. Is that incorrect? The way I see it, you just weaken the group who are trying to negotiate for the all the pilots, including yourself. If the AOA had 100% involvement and still couldn't achieve any desirable results then perhaps another plan is needed. Perhaps ALPA Intl.?
I have worked for both union and non-union companies. I can easily say that I prefer the first. Do I like unions? Nope. Do I like the idea of paying dues? Not particularly. All in though, I do think they are a necessary evil for a pilot group with any kind of numbers. To be on your own sucks and the results will be far worse. To summarize, I see two options:
- ALL pilots join the AOA
- ALL pilots join another union
I don't think either will cure all but anything else will be worse.
I have been reading this forum for several years and I have a pretty good idea of peoples opinions regarding the current CoS and AOA. I don't however, understand what good could come of not joining or quitting the AOA. Would I be (or should I say, will I be) frustrated by losses in CoS and pay? Definitely. I fully understand that. Yet I still can't see the point. If you quit you are on you own. Sort of. The CoS and pay you will work with are still going to be negotiated by something you decided not to support. Is that incorrect? The way I see it, you just weaken the group who are trying to negotiate for the all the pilots, including yourself. If the AOA had 100% involvement and still couldn't achieve any desirable results then perhaps another plan is needed. Perhaps ALPA Intl.?
I have worked for both union and non-union companies. I can easily say that I prefer the first. Do I like unions? Nope. Do I like the idea of paying dues? Not particularly. All in though, I do think they are a necessary evil for a pilot group with any kind of numbers. To be on your own sucks and the results will be far worse. To summarize, I see two options:
- ALL pilots join the AOA
- ALL pilots join another union
I don't think either will cure all but anything else will be worse.