Standard Noise

No, brain fade, don't shut up, we do so enjoy your ramblings.
Anyhoo, twixt 12 and 13z, it was up to 20kts.

But you might want to ask some pilot torturers at other units why not. That might elicit a sensible answer that even a pilot could understand (as long as they use small words, naturally ).

Fool's Hole

As I read all the above, I gather that I am not the only one that feels helpless in having to endure these warnings.
When I say endure I mean only at BRS.

The next thing nowadays is the "Threshold Elevation" just before you touch down for the millionth time somewhere! WHY?
There again WHY NOT in CDG, or AGP, or ALC, or PRG or BUD or....

There are other mind boggling things in Volmets all over, like cloud cover; broken at 23 thousand feet! Now that's gonna make the approach rather difficult!

Why don't you ATC people come together one rainy day all over Europe and sit down to agree one common way of presenting what's RELEVANT to us. Ditch the crap and just give us what we need. Short and sharp and to the point.
HOW??? By asking a few (hundred) of us what we need to hear perhaps?

Regards - Fool's Hole, NOT an a**e hole!

Standard Noise

Fool's Hole - we've tried to get 'threshold elevation' put on the ATIS, but the nice inspectors at the
C AMPAIGN A gainst A viation won't let us do it, so we have to give it to you on each approach. Send your thoughts to them and see what reply you get, we've had a go, but to no avail!

brain fade

Standard
Is it a requirement to pass the threshold elevation to a/c at all?
Again, most (all?) airports don't.

Re your 'pilot torturer' suggestion. Are you really suggesting that I ask controllers at airports where they dont do your silly warnings why you insist on them at Brizzol?

I think most folk would accept that as BRS is the ONLY airport which puts them out it would be quicker to ask you lot why you do it, rather than every other fecker why they don't!

Really tho, your 'yokel' warnings are a constant source of amusement rather than anything else, especially when they are plainly total bollocks, which is quite often. Any source of amusement is welcome.

Fool's Hole

What the CAA and anyone (ATC?) out there in the "peripheries" need to do badly, is to go on day trips with us for at least 4 sectors.
That is in order for all to see just what is relevant in today's cockpit regarding any "outside" information that reaches us at any time.
See how we deal with the information and make your own judgement whether it's just silly and unnecessary, or indeed is it a good bit of info that helps the operation.
The CAA in particular have no real understanding of airline operations, they are just a bunch that are trying to make a living by what they do and g_d knows they can be awful at that.
But the real "doing" is being done by us, all the time.
Even without the CAA we would be able to carry on for ever, even without a Crewing department we would be able to share out the rosters more evenly between ourselves, fairly and squarely.

Enough said for today though.

055166k

You have to understand that the CAA recognise two distinct classes of pilot:
The really big aeroplane important pilot who flies half-way round the world in a mega-jet and lands at Heathrow, and the "others".
The Heathrow jet-tropolis pilot can read and so will know the elevations from his/her charts.....the "others" are assumed not to be able to read, and despite flying into and out of the same airport day after day, week after week, need to be verbally informed of the elevation.
Funny thing though, I would have thought it should be the other way round.....but when there is a need to reduce R/T chat to the bare minimum, and to talk to foreign pilots from the other side of the planet, it is amazing what can be dispensed with.
Methinks time for a common-sense update to the "manual".

Standard Noise

brain fade - We have to pass the threshold elevation for QNH app's. I do know that one of the big two airport units north of the border were allowed to put this on their ATIS. Since we have a similar Metcom system, I asked if we would be allowed to do the same. The ATSM forwarded my question and backed it up with the evidence of our Scottish brethren. We were informed that, no, we cannot include this on the ATIS message. The Inspector for this region doesn't like it on the ATIS, presumably because, as 055166k has already stated, we have to provide info not just for you fantasically skilled and professional airline pilots , but also for the weekend 'once a year' merchants. Oh, and if you don't ask my fellow pilot torturers at other airports, why they don't put warnings on their ATIS thingies, how will you know how they get round doing it?
Still, it's nice to know we keep you amused with our silly little ATIS. But tell me, when we're giving you tfc info or avoiding action in respect of those flying at 500kts through the Bath gap OHMSS, do you consider that to be a case "plainly total bollocks"?
I'd rather get you out of the way of a Tornado sightseeing over Bath, than be spending time giving a once a year merchant in his homebuilt 'Sellotape special' the ins and outs of a gale warning that we can't put on the ATIS for fear of offending your ears!!

Fool's hole - as I've said before, you need to put that suggestion to the CAA Inspectors (based at Manch) for our region, probably best doing it through your Chief Neddy. Pprune isn't really the place to try to influence CAA policy.

055166k - who is in charge of updating these days, last I heard, it was someone who's name rhymes with 'mutton', and as I remember, common sense wasn't exactly at the top of his list of priorities.

055166k

You've high-lighted a common problem; because here in the UK the "Authority" rides rough-shod over acceptable ICAO practices. They seem to think that this tiny island is so unique that practices and procedures that work perfectly well throughout the rest of the world are somehow inappropriate here.
Likewise the treatment of regional ATC units and their regular traffic. I reckon that low-fare multi-sector-day pilots exhibit a far higher standard of airmanship and ATC awareness than some of their main-line cousins who may do one landing per 10 hours as opposed to five landings or so.....what's more the lo-co is flying in the cauldron of the busiest, densest, and most demanding confusion of airspace anywhere.
One airport I was at required each and every vehicle movement to be positively controlled.....even though the drivers knew every inch of the airfield. Another airport was so busy and with a congested ground freq [and it was three times the size] that vehicles were regularly allowed to operate on own look-out.
My submission is that if a practice [such as no need to pass elevation] is safe at one airport and there has been no attributable accident or adverse evidence, then why can't that practice be adopted at all airports?
...Heathrow has so many exemptions and special procedures that one could be forgiven for thinking it was in a foreign country for all the commonality its practices have with other UK airfields.....and that smells wrong, wrong, wrong.

Whipping Boy's SATCO

Of course, if everyone flew their approaches on QFE, there wouldn't be any need to put the threshold elevation on the ATIS..................

spekesoftly

True, but instead of transmitting the Threshold Elevation, the Controller is then required to Tx the QFE !

Whipping Boy's SATCO

I'd much prefer to hear sweet nothings from a controller than some mumblings from a clone of Marvin the Paranoid Android!

brain fade

Standard
Please continue to help us miss fast jets etc. I'm not saying that you are incompetent at Bristol, just a bit wordy No need to get your standard ATC knickers in a twist!

But you still have not explained about the 'threshold elevation' bit. for info at most airports it's neither passed by voice OR found on the ATIS. It is on the charts however. So why don't you save your breath?

And re the 'yokel' warnings. They aren't found on the ATIS of every airport I know because, guess what? They don't need to be! Doh!

Re 'total bollocks' I thought I made it clear I was referring to the frequently erroneous content of the yokel warnings. ie 'Fog warning current' going on all bleeding day, last trace of fog left 6 hours ago.

Don't mind me tho' , really I don't mind, and it gives Brizzol a sort of twee, rustic charm. A certain individuality that is so often lacking these days. And it's funny too. So stick in!

On a more constructive note tho, why don't you put in for some ATC fam flights and see how it's done elsewhere. That's if you can bear to be parted from Brizzol!

Standard Noise

brain fade - I thought I had explained 'threshold elevation'. We put it into that last tx before we put you to twr because the powers that be at the Campaign Against Aviation say we have to. End of. Unless they have a change of heart, we will keep doing it. Why or how others get away with not doing it, I have no idea.

I'm not sure you got my point about the 'fast jet' bit. By putting the warnings on the ATIS, it also saves us having to give them out over the r/t to the weekend homebuilt merchants which would take up valuable r/t time. Time which is better served stopping you and the Queen's top guns meeting somewhere over Bath or Chippenham.

Maybe I'll let you know next time I'm on leave, and I'll arrange a fam flight when you're on duty. Should be interesting.

brain fade

Standard
If you come on a fam flight with yours truly, at least we'll have something to talk about!

Yes, I think I had missed your point about the jets. As you'll have realised by now I approve of minimising use of the RT.

You seem to be in denial about BRS ATC being the home of the repeated clearance or the unneccessary tx. Well I've tried (and failed) to convince you but it's true anyway, It might be more clear after a fam or two.

Tell me, std, is it just me or have BRS app recently started a policy of only passing one bit of instruction per tx? You know, saying 'abc123 turn left heading 090' then 'abc123 descend 2500'', then 'abc123 reduce speed 180 kt', rather than dishing out all 3 in the one tx. Seems to happening more and more and I simply wondered if it was a policy or just an idiosyncrasy?

Ta BF

Legs11

wel MATS2 states that "messages should not contain more than 3 specific phrases comprising a clearance, instruction or pertinant information". Maybe if it's happening recently it may be due to a controller under training allowing him/herself a little bit of thinking time.

slotbuster

Might be due to experience showing that pilots can't handle that many instructions thrown together at once under certain circumstances. It can be a source of confusion at times at well, that's why the CAA got us to append the word 'degrees' to headings to avoid confusion with levels.

"abc123 turn right heading 090 degrees, climb flight level 80"

moist

That's a bloody joke and all.
The same pilot may find himself on the same day flying out of sensible-safe Britain, into Maniana Country where Manuel may say things like: Monar 205, Cleared to fly-level 080 heading 005.
Couple of minutes later descend to fi-tousand fi-undred and so on.
No use the CAA working single handedly in a "unified" Europe. It means nothing to us. What about countries with 3 hours flight time from here who are still using altitude in meters, winds at m/s.
The whole lot is just a bloody joke, I can't take any of this job too seriously.

Standard Noise

Sometimes pilots just can't handle three instructions in one tx, although as you know bf we constantly have radar training ongoing, what unit doesn't? Incidentally, if it was in a NI accent, I can only apologise, I must have been having a off day.

brain fade

Thanks Std.
I take it from your reply that it's not becoming SOP. Phew!
Since some pilots can't handle three instructions at once I suppose you had better make it an SOP quickly before something terrible happens.

Also us cretins had better stop going anywhere busy as plainly it will all be too much for us!

Lets put it down to controller pedantry! (for training purposes ).

Standard Noise

HURRAH! HURRAH!
We've decided on a new policy, no more met warnings to be put out via the ATIS. Seems the poor BRT and Sleazy pilots can't cope with them (summat to do with the limited amount of brain cells available on their flight decks! ) Oh, all that typing we won't have to do anymore, mar-vell-ous.