CB IR

[thing]

I haven't flogged through all of the requirements, mainly because I go glassy eyed after half a page of 'Sub para 24.68 refers to the clause' blah di blah but is it worth making every flight I do from now IFR? I have an IR(R). The way I read it I need 55 hours IFR in the logbook before I can start doing the CBIR. Can anyone explain it to a simpleton?

Unfortunately I've never bothered to log any of my IFR time before, never saw the neccessity (and there ain't a column in my logbook...).

[Level Attitude]

The 'standard' CB-IR course requires a minimum 40 hours of IF Flight Instruction and needs no prior IF or IFR experience.

If a student has received prior IF Instruction (by an appropriately qualified Instructor) then up to 15 of these IF instructional hours can be counted towards the CB-IR course.
(NB: As you hold an IR(R) you must already have received at least 10 hours of IF Instruction.)

Additionally, if a student has flown IFR PIC in the past, then up to 15 hours of this can also be counted towards the CB-IR requirements.

To 'accept' these credits towards the CB-IR any ATO is required to conduct a 'course pre-entry' assessment flight and, in any case, they may not accept any, or all, of them at all.

So, theoretically, the minimum flight time required for a CB-IR course could be as low as 10 hours IF Instruction plus assessment flight time.

In reality, probably, significantly more - need to reach Test standard, etc

[thing]

Thanks for that, now why can't they write it like that in the official stuff?

[3 Point]

Hey thing, impressive attitude in your original post! Can't be bothered with the detail in the requirements or recording your progress towards meeting them. That'll work well for you when you're faced with an unexpected ILS outage at 300' in solid IFR.

I'd suggest a period of introspection and careful consideration; do you really feel that you are ready to step up to the standards required to operate in real-world IFR conditions??

Good luck with the training!!

Happy landings

3 Point

[thing]

Hey thing, impressive attitude in your original post! Can't be bothered with the detail in the requirements or recording your progress towards meeting them.

An almost guarenteed response to my OP, surprised it didn't come quicker.

Lets take it a point at at time shall we for the less than able. I'm just a common or garden PPL, I don't read regulations apertaining to various licencing options that instructors must be au fait with. Rather than plod through a minefield of frankly mind numbing regulation I thought I would ask here, on the instructors forum, in the hope of a concise answer which Level Attitude very kindly provided. Apologies for not having the fortitude to find out for myself. I don't know how my freezer works either, when it goes wrong I ask an expert. Maybe I should get a book out of the library next time.

How many PPL's who fly for pleasure and are not building hours to be an instructor or go for a CPL log actual IFR time? I'm not talking about instrument time which of course we all log but the IFR time during a flight when you are not actually on instruments? I don't know of any. Maybe they ought to add an 'IFR' column to logbooks? This of course may change now that there is a requirement for it if you wish to do the CB IR.

I would leave you with this, assuming you are an instructor which I don't know whether you are or not; I spend my hard earned money with instructors in my not frequent spare time to try and be a good and safe pilot, the CB IR would seem to be the next logical step to me. Most of the time I'm not flying, not involved with flying, or even thinking about flying, I have a totally divorced from flying job and family. It would bode well to remember that when replying to guys who spend their money at training establishments trying to be the best and safest they can but without the knowledge of arcane regs that experienced instructors possess and without the flying abilities that come with poling around with students all day long.

[3 Point]

Well, you can spend all the money you like but if you can't be bothered to do the work and with an attitude like that you'll never be the safe pilot you say you are striving to become. Either VFR or IFR.

Take care

3 Point

[dobbin1]

I certainly don't log IFR time and there is no legal requirement to do so. CAP 804 outlines the logging requirement clearly, and the nearest we get is an ANO requirement to record "Information about any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying". Nothing there about flight rules.

It is particularly perverse to then require evidence of IFR time as a prerequisite to further qualification.

The regulation is daft, as IFR can be flown (in the UK at least) in uncontrolled airspace without a single glance at an instrument. I quite often fly IFR especially when "cloud hooning" above 3,000 ft, which would be illegal VFR.

In my opinion, the regulations should be changed to either require the logging of flight rules, or use actual instrument flight time (at a 1 to 4 ratio, like the old days) instead of IFR time as the prerequisite.

[Level Attitude]

The regulation is daft, as IFR can be flown (in the UK at least) in uncontrolled airspace without a single glance at an instrument. I quite often fly IFR especially when "cloud hooning" above 3,000 ft, which would be illegal VFR.

dobbin1, That statement is so generic and wide ranging that it is very misleading: For a pilot who does not hold an instrument qualification of some sort, IFR flight in the UK is only possible in non-EASA aircraft.

I certainly don't log IFR time and there is no legal requirement to do so

AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
GENERAL
(a) The record of the flights flown should contain at least the following information:
(5) Operational conditions, namely if the operation takes place at night, or is conducted under instrument flight rules.

If you want an EASA qualification then you follow the EASA rules.

To fly IFR EASA requires someone to hold an instrument qualification. To gain an instrument qualification EASA require a certain amount of IF (Instrument Time) training and for the Test to also require demonstration of IF competence.

Once an instrument qualification is held EASA don't care about whether the pilot can see out, or not, as they now 'assume' competence in IF flight.

[thing]

But Level, ask any club bog standard PPL about AMC1 FCL.050 and they will go 'Errr... eh?'Which is exactly the point I'm making.

Looking at 3 points resume, assuming it to be correct then he is a professional pilot, how in hell he expects weekend pilots who are putting in 30- 60 hours a year to be of the same standard as himself or indeed yourself beggars belief.

People come on here asking for advice. People for whom flying is a vital but small part of their life, because unlike you or 3 points we have to go and earn the money to pay for our flying. I have a particular field of expertise. If I had the same condescending attitude to my customers as seems to be the case here I would be out of business pronto.

[BillieBob]

I certainly don't log IFR time and there is no legal requirement to do so

That statement is absolutely correct. The legal requirement is at FCL.050:

The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.

The form and manner that is established by the UK competent authority is detailed in Article 79 of the ANO 2009 and does not require the recording of flight time under IFR. AMC1 FCL.050 is, therefore, in the case of UK licensed pilots at least, irrelevant in the context of this thread.

The fact that the OP, having presumably spent a considerable amount of money and effort gaining a pilot licence, cannot be ar$ed to understand the privileges, restrictions or potential of what he has paid and worked for, whilst mildly disappointing, is hardly relevant.

[thing]

The fact that the OP, having presumably spent a considerable amount of money and effort gaining a pilot licence, cannot be ar$ed to understand the privileges, restrictions or potential of what he has paid and worked for

Jeeeesus. I DO understand the privileges, restrictions and potential of what my license says I cannot and can do very well. I'm asking about things that AREN'T on my licence, things that I may consider doing. I wish I hadn't bothered asking TBH.

[Level Attitude]

The form and manner that is established by the UK competent authority is detailed in Article 79 of the ANO 2009 and does not require the recording of flight time under IFR. AMC1 FCL.050 is, therefore, in the case of UK licensed pilots at least, irrelevant in the context of this thread.

The ANO is UK law, which must be complied with. Part-FCL derives from European law, which must be complied with. The CAA have recognised this and, as the Competent Authority, have specified the "form and manner" in CAP804:

Part E Personal Flying Logs and recording of Flight Time
This Part sets out the requirements and guidance for Log annotation. The Part-FCL and Air Navigation Order requirements are listed below so that pilots have the information needed to maintain records that meet both European and national requirements.
1 General information
Flight crew logs must be kept in accordance with the provisions of Article 79 of the UK ANO as amended and must also conform to Part-FCL (AMC FCL.050 refers). Part-FCL states that flight time shall be recorded in a manner specified by the Authority.
2 Required information
2.1 Part-FCL.050 and the ANO require a flight crew member to keep a personal flying log in which at least the following particulars are recorded:
2.1.2 Operational conditions, namely if the operation takes place at night, or is conducted under instrument flight rules.
2.2 Pilots applying for a licence or rating are strongly advised to use a log complying with Part-FCL.050 AMC No.1 to facilitate its issue.

I am not really interested in the legal argument. Section 2.2 says it all: If you want a Part-FCL qualification then comply with the Part-FCL logging requirements.

thing, Don't despair !
You asked a perfectly sensible question on what was required to gain an additional qualification. Then some people assumed you already had it, or should know where to look for the information without asking. A technical discussion ensued and, in the slight drift, some forgot your initial query and missed that it wasn't you who had started it.

[BEagle]

In simple terms, credit is available towards the CbM IR for pilots with previous instrument flight time. Simply logging 'IFR' time is pointless; the CbM IR requires 40 hrs of instrument flight time, at least 25 of which must be 'dual flight time' - and of which 15 may be under instruction for the IR(R).

So that leaves another 15 hrs of instrument flight time, which can be further dual training or as PIC of aeroplanes with an IR(R).

In summary, you could in theory claim 15 hrs of dual instrument flight time plus 15 hrs instrument flight time as PIC of aeroplanes towards the CbM IR, then just fly another 10 hrs of instrument flight training before the skill test.

The credit was poorly explained in the past - it said that credit was available for 'prior flight time under IFR as PIC on aeroplanes, under a rating providing the privileges to fly under IFR and in IMC', which was further qualified in AMC/GM to state that such credit must not exceed instrument flight time.... That has now been tidied up in Regulation (EU) 445/2015 to read 'prior experience of instrument flight time as PIC on aeroplanes, under a rating providing the privileges to fly under IFR and in IMC’.

Instrument flight time is defined as 'the time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments'. So 'IFR' time in gin clear VMC won't count, it has to be 'real' IF!

[thing]

Beagle, as usual you come to the rescue! Many thanks.

Level A:

thing, Don't despair !

Probably my fault for not being clear enough in the first place. Forums, don't you love them.

So, I just need the extra ten hours dual instruction legally being as I have all of the other criteria sewn up...




and just before I have my head ripped off again I've no doubt it will take more than that to get me up to standard...

[Mach Jump]

I was just about to contribute to this thread when the pissing contest started, and reminded me why I left PPRune for several years.

The Licensing system is in such chaos right now that only a very few qualified pilots, I would guess no more than 1%, really know what the privileges of their licences and ratings permit them to do.

Thing is absolutely right, and, as LA already stated, asked a perfectly reasonable question. The majority of instructors and Examiners struggle, mostly unsuccessfully, to keep up with the constantly changing rules, so how can a PPL holder, who just flies weekends be expected to understand the appalling shambles we are in at the moment.

It's only the likes of BEagle, who are constantly involved in the effort to sort out the mess, who can keep up with the latest details.


MJ

[Linda Mollison]

You also have to do some IR Theoretical Knowledge exams before you can do the CBMIR skill test.

Ground school is by distance learning and is much reduced from the previous PPL/IR studies - only 80 hours now required.

The brush-up course is also much reduced: GTS at Bournemouth, for instance, do one day for each module. I am sure that the other providers do something similar.

By the way, the minimum 10 hours training must be done in an aircraft - not a simulator.

I agree with Mach Jump. It is almost impossible to keep up with the changing rules. My job involves me referring to Part FCL, CAP804 on almost a daily basis and changes still catch me out sometimes.

Linda Mollison

[thing]

Thanks Linda.

[BEagle]

New CAP 804

By the way, did you know that there's an updated edition of CAP 804 now available at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP804%...searchable.pdf as well as an associated Information Notice http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Informa...ice2015036.pdf ?

I'm slowly weaning people off using 'RTF' when they mean 'RF' - the IN is correct (thanks for that), but there is still some incorrect use in CAP 804.

[lasseb]

The Licensing system is in such chaos right now that only a very few qualified pilots, I would guess no more than 1%, really know what the privileges of their licences and ratings permit them to do.

That must be because the UK CAA insists on republishing and changing a lot of rules (LASORS), and making there own ratings (IMC rating). Not sure if that has become any easier with EASA rules.

For the rest of us in other countries I don't really see any problem. Most here in scandinavia has no issues with the new rules and regulations, and we are perfectly capable of figuring out what ratings and license we have, and how to add stuff to the license.

As to the CBIR it is not that hard to figure out what is needed and what is not. As previously stated you need a pre-entry assessment at an ATO, and they decide how many hours you need to fly to get the IR rating and how many hours they will credit you, regardless of any previous IFR experience.
I have had the first couple of PPL's through the CBIR course without any problems, and with credit for prev IFR flying.

[Whopity]

That must be because the UK CAA insists on republishing and changing a lot of rules (LASORS), and making there own ratings (IMC rating). Not sure if that has become any easier with EASA rules.

LASORS ceased in 2012! It was replaced by CAP804 which has now been replaced 5 times. One of the major issues is too many sources of information, much of which is contradictory, poor indexing of information and a failure to check content before publishing.