The "Whistling wheelbarrow"
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The Argosy
Life on 105, Khormaksar, remembering the "strengthened floor", at the front of the freight bay underneath the floor were the inverters & sundry other electrical gizmo's, caused some difficulties when the inverters failed with a loaded freight bay, simply it wasn't possible to open the rear clamshell doors to move the freight out to enable the floorboards (some "millions" of screws all with buggered heads from loading freight before we used Rollamat) to be lifted, don't remember the details (mod number) but a fix was introduced to enable this to be accomplished, but do remember it was introduced on XP409 first, an aircraft that had had an electrical fire in the battery box & had "non standard" wiring, so when it was to be introduced to the fleet caused some head scratching as it was found not all aircraft had a "standard" electrical fit IAW the AP wiring diagrams, we all had our "own" aircraft as travelling groundcrew, an airframe,electrical & engine tradesman, went with the aircraft up & down the route (jollies they were, usually ended up as tea boy) mine was XP439, lovely machine. With reference the low fuel bowser, it did fit , reversed in, with the cab fitting in the rear area below the rear escape hatch, we took them down to Matsapa for the Swaziland troubles then they were shipped to Salisbury (Southern Rhodesia for the youngsters, when we had an Empire) where they may still be ?.
So many happy memories PH.
So many happy memories PH.
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26er,
Just to help get the record straight I have found my reference to the BEA Whistling Wheelbarrow that flew into a large hill in Italy on April 7th, 1965..
It was G-ASXL flying BE2120F from LHR to Milan, Linate. They were attempting an ADF approach in a thunderstorm. They thought they were at the Linate NDB and were cleared down to 2000ft, and next called established on the ILS??
They arrived on the hillside, 2000ft high, at just after 19-10 and were 33 miles from the field and on the centerline.
And the training accident at Stansted was on 15th December, 1967.
As I say I flew with the F/O when he got to the Tristar. I think I would have given up after two lucky escapes!!
Speedbird 48.
Just to help get the record straight I have found my reference to the BEA Whistling Wheelbarrow that flew into a large hill in Italy on April 7th, 1965..
It was G-ASXL flying BE2120F from LHR to Milan, Linate. They were attempting an ADF approach in a thunderstorm. They thought they were at the Linate NDB and were cleared down to 2000ft, and next called established on the ILS??
They arrived on the hillside, 2000ft high, at just after 19-10 and were 33 miles from the field and on the centerline.
And the training accident at Stansted was on 15th December, 1967.
As I say I flew with the F/O when he got to the Tristar. I think I would have given up after two lucky escapes!!
Speedbird 48.
zetec2:
By the way, the MTOW was normally 97,000 lbs (not 85,000 lbs). When MOS (Military Operating Standards) was authorised then this went up to 105,000 lbs. At that weight, the aircraft was well outside Perf A limits so an engine failure on take-off was not considered.
I was on the Argosy from 1962 until the end of 1971 and served on 105, 114, 267 (twice) and also managed 5 ARDETs in Bahrain.
Generally speaking, it would have been a much better aircraft (performance wise) with Dart 12s and reversing props but it was very reliable piece of kit and we took it into places (such as Bait al Falaj) that it was never designed for. Coming out of Bait at 105,000 lbs was guaranteed to get your attention.
I did a fair amount of bundu-bashing with it to such places as Fahud, Ibri, Firq, Buraimi, Tawi Hamad, Tarif, Heima, Jebel Dhana, Das and Azaiba. It never let me down once.
The 90hp Rover APU was also a wonderful bit of kit. It gave us huge independence and the only thing that ever used to need changing was the glo-plug. On the odd occasion that it needed changing, the flight engineer usually had a spare in his toolkit.
By the way, the MTOW was normally 97,000 lbs (not 85,000 lbs). When MOS (Military Operating Standards) was authorised then this went up to 105,000 lbs. At that weight, the aircraft was well outside Perf A limits so an engine failure on take-off was not considered.
I was on the Argosy from 1962 until the end of 1971 and served on 105, 114, 267 (twice) and also managed 5 ARDETs in Bahrain.
Generally speaking, it would have been a much better aircraft (performance wise) with Dart 12s and reversing props but it was very reliable piece of kit and we took it into places (such as Bait al Falaj) that it was never designed for. Coming out of Bait at 105,000 lbs was guaranteed to get your attention.
I did a fair amount of bundu-bashing with it to such places as Fahud, Ibri, Firq, Buraimi, Tawi Hamad, Tarif, Heima, Jebel Dhana, Das and Azaiba. It never let me down once.
The 90hp Rover APU was also a wonderful bit of kit. It gave us huge independence and the only thing that ever used to need changing was the glo-plug. On the odd occasion that it needed changing, the flight engineer usually had a spare in his toolkit.
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JW411
Actually, all of the Dart series engine/propellor combinations were equipped with Reverse Thrust. It was only the civil variants which were "reverse disabled". It was considered that the pitch change from Flight Fine Pitch (FFP) to Ground Fine Pitch (GFP) was entirely sufficient for the braking purposes of civil aircraft. Hence, the military version was, indeed, equipped for Reverse Thrust capability (short field operations).
My source of information is directly from the RAF Pilots Notes and a copy of the Dowty Rotol Handbook; also, my basic Air Eng training also described the propellor operating system in great detail (Reverse Thrust included).
The same engine (actually a Dart 201) is fitted to the Andover C1 and, to this day, the "Boscombe" Andover demonstrates its "reverse capability" to those who wish to use it.
TCF
A particularly clever trick indeed since the Argosy wasn't equipped with reversing propellers!
My source of information is directly from the RAF Pilots Notes and a copy of the Dowty Rotol Handbook; also, my basic Air Eng training also described the propellor operating system in great detail (Reverse Thrust included).
The same engine (actually a Dart 201) is fitted to the Andover C1 and, to this day, the "Boscombe" Andover demonstrates its "reverse capability" to those who wish to use it.
TCF
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Weight, APU & props
Well JW411 guess our paths obviously crossed, I went out to K'Sar & Nairobi early March with the 2 trial aircraft XN847 & XN849 carrying out the hot & high before then going out with 105 for my holiday, sorry tour, agreed the APU was a brilliant bit of kit but you obviously never had to change one in the Aden heat, I did & being stuck up the boom in the afternoon heat was not a pleasant place to be, what's this bit about the Flight Eng being able to fix problems, usually found them issuing instructions from the cool of the mess whilst us real engineers fixed the faults.
Also re the props & reversing, as I remember from prop changes we set the prop angle before putting the dome back on (don't remember the actual angle) to Ground Fine Pitch (always known as Discing !) our (105's) Argosies definitely didn't have a reverse facility, maybe the ability to was available but not used ????.
Regards, PH.
Also re the props & reversing, as I remember from prop changes we set the prop angle before putting the dome back on (don't remember the actual angle) to Ground Fine Pitch (always known as Discing !) our (105's) Argosies definitely didn't have a reverse facility, maybe the ability to was available but not used ????.
Regards, PH.
Reverse pitch was not available when I flew RAF Argosies. Had it been we would have been able to reverse out of nose in stands as we used to do in the Britannia. I am sorry you have got it wrong TCF, military Argosies like their civil counterparts only had Ground Fine Pitch to assist the braking.
Heard that flying the Beverley was like flying a council house from the upstairs bathroom window!
Re. the Whistling Tit, there was once some brilliant idea in the RAF to turn them into T Mk 2 multi-crew trainers - with QFIs, U/T pilots, U/T air engineers, air engineer instructors on the flight deck - and a misplot of astrologers in the back learning to be navigators. Fortunately this daft idea was soon canned, thanks to defence cuts reducing the requirement for non-fast jet aircrew!
When we were handled by Duncan Aviation at Lincoln Nebraska once during an RAF VC10K trip, they told us that they still operated the Whistling Tit somewhere north - and if we knew where there were any spare windscreens, they'd pay a lot for them!
As a by-product of working at Boscombe Down I get access to and spend some time reading the old reports and one that has always intrigued me was the one on the Argosy armament trials.
Built and operated at a time when there was still a little colonial policing to carry out I suppose the sight of an Argosy carrying 6 1000 lb bombs shouldn't be surprising, but to me it is.
I thought that this installation was a one off until I noticed the 3 hard points and electrical connectors along each lower fuselage chine of the Argosy at the RAF Cosford museum.
Built and operated at a time when there was still a little colonial policing to carry out I suppose the sight of an Argosy carrying 6 1000 lb bombs shouldn't be surprising, but to me it is.
I thought that this installation was a one off until I noticed the 3 hard points and electrical connectors along each lower fuselage chine of the Argosy at the RAF Cosford museum.
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There was a small cargo concern at Heathrow called Sagittair, operating 3 (IIRC) Beech 18s....they used to operate mostly at night, often to Geneva. This would have been circa 1970. They then equipped with Argosies (I don`t remember how many) and promptly went bust. I`ve often wondered if this was some ruse, and some sleight of an accountants hand was involved, as it seemed like a radical shift in business model.
I have many fond memories of the Argosy, which was very reliable and pleasant to fly. It only let me down once when a series of inverter failures enroute from Matsapa to Cheleka (Blantyre, Malawi) brought us to a grinding halt. The only passenger on board was the airport manager, who had been on an ATC liason visit to Swaziland. He insisted the crew was shared out amongst the five expat families employed at the airport.
Khormaksar despatched four new inverters to Lusaka via Nairobi on East African Airways. They were transferred to a Zambian Air Force Beaver, which had an engine failure and forced landed in the bush. A second set of inverters eventually turned up ten days later, bringing to an end a most enjoyable stay.
Another memory is best forgotten. We were tasked to drop two (14000lb) Boscombe Platforms on Tangmere airfield. The first run went to plan with the platform landing in the middle of the target area. We ran in for the
second and final run at 1200 feet and released the remaining platform at the same position as the first. The extractor chute deployed and the platform started off down the cabin like an express train until it reached the rear sill, where it suddenly jammed in it's runners, the main parachutes were pulled out and wrapped themselves round the tailplane. With 14000lbs stuck on the sill the C of G was outside limits. The nose reared up and the speed decayed alarmingly. It took both of us with full nose down trim to keep the speed above 80 knots. Fortunately the severe buffeting and high pitch angle eventually dislodged the platform, which fell off the sill and landed in a ploughed field beyond the western boundary of the airfield. We managed to regain full control around 400 feet and flew back to Thorney Island in silence!
Khormaksar despatched four new inverters to Lusaka via Nairobi on East African Airways. They were transferred to a Zambian Air Force Beaver, which had an engine failure and forced landed in the bush. A second set of inverters eventually turned up ten days later, bringing to an end a most enjoyable stay.
Another memory is best forgotten. We were tasked to drop two (14000lb) Boscombe Platforms on Tangmere airfield. The first run went to plan with the platform landing in the middle of the target area. We ran in for the
second and final run at 1200 feet and released the remaining platform at the same position as the first. The extractor chute deployed and the platform started off down the cabin like an express train until it reached the rear sill, where it suddenly jammed in it's runners, the main parachutes were pulled out and wrapped themselves round the tailplane. With 14000lbs stuck on the sill the C of G was outside limits. The nose reared up and the speed decayed alarmingly. It took both of us with full nose down trim to keep the speed above 80 knots. Fortunately the severe buffeting and high pitch angle eventually dislodged the platform, which fell off the sill and landed in a ploughed field beyond the western boundary of the airfield. We managed to regain full control around 400 feet and flew back to Thorney Island in silence!
Last edited by brakedwell; 9th Feb 2011 at 07:49. Reason: repetition
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The Whistling Wheelbarrow
When I was in the RAF serving in the MEAF Command area I flew mostly in Valettas and a Hastings but never in an Argosy. However I was told that for a Whistling Wheelbarrow to take off it needed to get to flying speed while still on the runway and then simply retract the undercarriage! Anyone know how true this is?
Handley
Handley
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The Argosy, bless it.
brakedwell,
Re the Matsapa trips, I was on one of the first in, my list shows in XP408, pilot was a Flt Lt by name of Mori or Murray ?, he who later landed with the brakes on & blocked the runway, anyway you will remember that us engine chaps had to check engine & gearbox oils soonest after shutdown & we normally went out of the cockpit escape hatch onto the roof & down onto the wings, it was a surprise to find very neatly going through the vortex generators & down the side of the fuselage about half a dozen very neat holes, we had been shot at on the approach in, never found any bullets inside or who did it, I had the unpleasant job of going through the rear cockpit door in the heat & humidity down among the air condition pack to try & find any damage, none found ???, aircraft had the holes patched with aluminium tape & returned to Nairobi low level with no pressurisation, Fl Off John Church the JENGO signed it off & went back with it by request of the crew, Bill Aspinall in charge if I remeber correctly, we did have fun those days !. This could go on for weeks as there are many & varied tales to tell, PH.
Re the Matsapa trips, I was on one of the first in, my list shows in XP408, pilot was a Flt Lt by name of Mori or Murray ?, he who later landed with the brakes on & blocked the runway, anyway you will remember that us engine chaps had to check engine & gearbox oils soonest after shutdown & we normally went out of the cockpit escape hatch onto the roof & down onto the wings, it was a surprise to find very neatly going through the vortex generators & down the side of the fuselage about half a dozen very neat holes, we had been shot at on the approach in, never found any bullets inside or who did it, I had the unpleasant job of going through the rear cockpit door in the heat & humidity down among the air condition pack to try & find any damage, none found ???, aircraft had the holes patched with aluminium tape & returned to Nairobi low level with no pressurisation, Fl Off John Church the JENGO signed it off & went back with it by request of the crew, Bill Aspinall in charge if I remeber correctly, we did have fun those days !. This could go on for weeks as there are many & varied tales to tell, PH.
In my early days as an assistant at West Drayton, BEA still operated Argosies on a night time freight run to Paris. The outbound clearance was usually something like 'Seaford One Departure climb to FL70 to be level by the FIR boundary'. Needless to say they rarely managed this, in fact you were lucky if they made 4000ft by the south coast! The only saving grace was the Air France freighter was a Breguet Deux Ponts, and that had a rate of climb even worse!
In Australia, Brain and Brown operated a 100 Series Argosy VH-BBA for a period in the early 1970's and then the aircraft was purchased by Ipec Aviation who operated three aircraft up ontil 1990.
Ipec operated them on the Bass Strait night freight run between Essendon and Launceston until replaced by the DC-9.
Safe-Air in NZ also operated them on freight work and also out the Chatnam Islands in a combi onfiguration.
The climb rate on an Argosy out of Melbourne on a hot night, was mainly due to the curvature of the earth.
Long live the whistlin' wheelbarrow.
Ipec operated them on the Bass Strait night freight run between Essendon and Launceston until replaced by the DC-9.
Safe-Air in NZ also operated them on freight work and also out the Chatnam Islands in a combi onfiguration.
The climb rate on an Argosy out of Melbourne on a hot night, was mainly due to the curvature of the earth.
Long live the whistlin' wheelbarrow.
TheChitterneFlyer:
I'm sorry old son but you are talking through a hole in your head. The Argosy was never ever equipped with reverse thrust. In flight, the propellers were allowed to fine off back to the Flight Fine Pitch Stop (FFPS). During the landing run with the throttles closed we had to manually move a lever on the centre pedestal which allowed the propellers to fine off even more to the Ground Fine Pitch Stop (GFPS).
If this was forgotten, then all four engines melted down very quickly when the throttles were opened to taxi in. It happened twice; once at Luqa and again (I think) at Thorney Island.
When the props went into Ground Fine, the discing effect of the propeller created a lot of drag but no reverse thrust. This drag was exactly the same whether you were doing a normal landing or a tactical landing and was purely a function of at which speed you were doing when ground fine was selected.
The Andover C.Mk.1 was equipped with Da12 engines and reversing propellers.
The Argosy did not. It was not possible to reverse an Argosy. Which reminds me of a funny story.
I arrived at Lyneham one morning and they tried to park me in one of the old wartime dumbell parking spaces. I stopped on the taxiway and got the ALM to go out through the nose hatch to explain that if I went in there, I would not be able to get out again. Fairly rapidly I had an irate wingless wonder Sqn Ldr on my flight deck telling me that all I had to do was reverse out. "Can't be done Sir", said I, "we don't have reverse thrust". "Yes you do, don't argue with me, I have read the books", said he.
"Fine", said I and taxiied into the dumbell and shut down. "Now you get it out, Sir", said I.
Needless to say they didn't have an Argosy towbar and one had to be flown over from Benson.
You simply cannot reverse an Argosy old son.
I'm sorry old son but you are talking through a hole in your head. The Argosy was never ever equipped with reverse thrust. In flight, the propellers were allowed to fine off back to the Flight Fine Pitch Stop (FFPS). During the landing run with the throttles closed we had to manually move a lever on the centre pedestal which allowed the propellers to fine off even more to the Ground Fine Pitch Stop (GFPS).
If this was forgotten, then all four engines melted down very quickly when the throttles were opened to taxi in. It happened twice; once at Luqa and again (I think) at Thorney Island.
When the props went into Ground Fine, the discing effect of the propeller created a lot of drag but no reverse thrust. This drag was exactly the same whether you were doing a normal landing or a tactical landing and was purely a function of at which speed you were doing when ground fine was selected.
The Andover C.Mk.1 was equipped with Da12 engines and reversing propellers.
The Argosy did not. It was not possible to reverse an Argosy. Which reminds me of a funny story.
I arrived at Lyneham one morning and they tried to park me in one of the old wartime dumbell parking spaces. I stopped on the taxiway and got the ALM to go out through the nose hatch to explain that if I went in there, I would not be able to get out again. Fairly rapidly I had an irate wingless wonder Sqn Ldr on my flight deck telling me that all I had to do was reverse out. "Can't be done Sir", said I, "we don't have reverse thrust". "Yes you do, don't argue with me, I have read the books", said he.
"Fine", said I and taxiied into the dumbell and shut down. "Now you get it out, Sir", said I.
Needless to say they didn't have an Argosy towbar and one had to be flown over from Benson.
You simply cannot reverse an Argosy old son.
A sort of Biggles Adventure
I had an interesting experience in Masirah. 105 sqn Argosies operated a thrice weekly schedule to Ryan, Salalah and Masirah. Departing Aden at 0700 the RSM consisted of three 1.30 minute sectors with one hour turnrounds at Ryan and Salalah before arriving at Masirah for a nightstop. Scheduled arrival time was 13.30. The officers Mess bar always closed promptly at 1400. If we were on time it was possible to sink a quick cold beer before the shutters came down. I will always remember the disapproving looks from behind three week old newspapers as an Argosy crew rushed through the anti-room at 1355! On one RSM the bar closed early and the barman refused to serve us when we arrived at 1350, so on our next RSM we were determined to beat the system. Khormaksar Air Movements did a brilliant job and we departed with a full complement of passengers, freight and mail thirty minutes early. The turnround times at Ryan and Salalah were halved and we headed for Masirah with an ETA of 1200, thirty minutes before the Officers Mess bar was due to open!
We approached along the south east coast of Masirah at very low level, intending to catch out ATC. As we rounded a rocky outcrop at 100 feet we surprised a submarine sitting on the surface, about half a mile ahead and 100 yards from the beach. It crash dived in a mass of bubbles and sat on the sandy bottom, fully visible in the shallow blue water. We climbed to 1000 feet and reported our find to Masirah. Keep it in sight they said, we will inform HQMEAF. Five minutes later we were told a Shackleton was being scrambled from Aden and we were to remain airborne over the "target" until it arrived on task! With just over two hours fuel remaining this was impossible.
To cut a long story short, we landed at Masirah at two o'clock, just as the bar closed!
The airfield perimeter patrol landrover was fired on with automatic weapons several times during the next few weeks, fortunately by a hopeless shot. An intelligence officer told me later that Baghdad Radio had been heard boasting about supplying gallant freedom fighters to oust the British occupiers of Masirah Island.
So we found an Iraqi submarine, but failed Plan A. Big deal
We approached along the south east coast of Masirah at very low level, intending to catch out ATC. As we rounded a rocky outcrop at 100 feet we surprised a submarine sitting on the surface, about half a mile ahead and 100 yards from the beach. It crash dived in a mass of bubbles and sat on the sandy bottom, fully visible in the shallow blue water. We climbed to 1000 feet and reported our find to Masirah. Keep it in sight they said, we will inform HQMEAF. Five minutes later we were told a Shackleton was being scrambled from Aden and we were to remain airborne over the "target" until it arrived on task! With just over two hours fuel remaining this was impossible.
To cut a long story short, we landed at Masirah at two o'clock, just as the bar closed!
The airfield perimeter patrol landrover was fired on with automatic weapons several times during the next few weeks, fortunately by a hopeless shot. An intelligence officer told me later that Baghdad Radio had been heard boasting about supplying gallant freedom fighters to oust the British occupiers of Masirah Island.
So we found an Iraqi submarine, but failed Plan A. Big deal
Am I correct in thinking that 115 Sqn at Benson were the last RAF users of the Argosy - I was with them to the end (on the Andovers) - bl&$dy good squadron to be on, equally good crews & boss to work for 
Cunning Artificer
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for a Whistling Wheelbarrow to take off it needed to get to flying speed while still on the runway and then simply retract the undercarriage! Anyone know how true this is?
Talking to the Engineer, it seems that they started their T/O run at Seletar and rolled on and on and on. The aircraft simply refused to fly. They rolled off the end of the runway at well above the calculated take-off speed and just flew straight ahead, a few feet above the water, while they got the gear up. Once the aircraft was "clean" it built up speed with a slow turn to starboard to head down the Straits past Changi, climbing very slowly. Fortunately there were no large ships in the way.
Since the aircraft was clearly too heavy to land safely and was now flying more or less properly, they flew on the Brunei, where the load was found to be more than double the declared weight! The aircraft would have been above the Military Operations weight of 105,000+ pounds quoted earlier. Not bad for a flying wheelbarrow.