Were you ever on Victors (Merged - various)
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Victor at Weston Super Mare Airfield
I remember when I was an RAF Apprentice at Locking doing an air radio course a Victor landing at Weston Super Mare Airfield. It was in 1959/60 and I believe it staged from Filton with just sufficient fuel for one attempt to land and return to Filton. I watched it doing a few practice runs in the days before and on the actual day it streamed its chute over the road before landing and managed to stop having used less than a half of the very short runway. It was then towed to the large hangar by the railway line and used for our apprentice training.
Obviously it could never take off again with that runway length, so was it scrapped or is it still lying forgotten and unloved some-ware, anyone know its fate?
Obviously it could never take off again with that runway length, so was it scrapped or is it still lying forgotten and unloved some-ware, anyone know its fate?
Pilot, 55 from 1987 to 1990.
The aileron uprigging occurred at about the time of the Falklands war. The ailerons were uprigged by about 5 degrees to move the centre of pressure forward which changed the stress path through the wings and the FI could be increased. To compensate, the elevators were downrigged by about 2 degrees. The net result of this was that the aircraft became less stable in pitch. I didn't fly them before the uprigging, but I understand that the change in flying characteristics was quite noticeable.
Another result was that at first, there was less down elevator authority. As the movement was only 8 degrees down in the first place, this was a significant loss which manifested itself when the US excahnge pilot (DP) was doing a post engineering delivery from St Athan. The lightened aircraft (no pods, U/W tanks or HDU) climbed spiritedly up to cruising altitude and then carried on climbing when DP found there wasn't enough elevator to lower the nose! The elevator movement range was increased to 10 degrees soon after that!
(Don't quote me on the figures, the memory is gradually being drunk away!)
The aileron uprigging occurred at about the time of the Falklands war. The ailerons were uprigged by about 5 degrees to move the centre of pressure forward which changed the stress path through the wings and the FI could be increased. To compensate, the elevators were downrigged by about 2 degrees. The net result of this was that the aircraft became less stable in pitch. I didn't fly them before the uprigging, but I understand that the change in flying characteristics was quite noticeable.
Another result was that at first, there was less down elevator authority. As the movement was only 8 degrees down in the first place, this was a significant loss which manifested itself when the US excahnge pilot (DP) was doing a post engineering delivery from St Athan. The lightened aircraft (no pods, U/W tanks or HDU) climbed spiritedly up to cruising altitude and then carried on climbing when DP found there wasn't enough elevator to lower the nose! The elevator movement range was increased to 10 degrees soon after that!
(Don't quote me on the figures, the memory is gradually being drunk away!)
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Victor at Weston Super Mare Airfield
exgroundcrew
"Obviously it could never take off again with that runway length, so was it scrapped or is it still lying forgotten and unloved some-ware, anyone know its fate?"
Info from RRB's vol.1 book.
Third development a/c XA919.
To No.1 Radio School, RAF Locking 15/16th May 1961 as 7724M.
By road to HP Radlett, -9-66 for fatigue tests.
Scrapped in 1970 following the demise of HP.
Ciarain.
"Obviously it could never take off again with that runway length, so was it scrapped or is it still lying forgotten and unloved some-ware, anyone know its fate?"
Info from RRB's vol.1 book.
Third development a/c XA919.
To No.1 Radio School, RAF Locking 15/16th May 1961 as 7724M.
By road to HP Radlett, -9-66 for fatigue tests.
Scrapped in 1970 following the demise of HP.
Ciarain.
Cool Mod
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Not quite in the vein of the thread but I was moved to re-read the original test reports of the Victor (the "Greater Crested Dragmaster" to some TP's) which was so named until the wing form was changed. Just to sit and enjoy the stories and the pleasure the aircraft gave to many of its pilots. Sdn Ldr Hazelden was its first pilot and was smitten. Going on with its many trials and tribulations. Of a surprise on one flight Hazelden discovered the Victor's ability "to virtually land itself" - on finals it would flare on its own ground cushion with no further input from the pilot!
Sadly the prototype crashed inn July 1954 the tailplane having seperated from the fin at Cranfield. All on board were killed. The fixing bolts had simply worn out although Handley Page had gone to great lengths to test the structural integrity all through its testing.
The second prototype was handed over to Boscombe Down in 1954 and into the hands of Geoffrey Fletcher OC 'B' Wing and a candidate of No 12 course at ETPS at Boscombe. He completed the trials of the Victor with some hairy moments but as he said at the time that the Victor "was a fine aircraft."
The Victor ended its days with the RAF in its main role as a bomber until 1974 when they were converted to tankers.
Like the Vulcan, an altogether superb history in a superb air force.
Sad it didn't continue - but that is history as they say.
Sadly the prototype crashed inn July 1954 the tailplane having seperated from the fin at Cranfield. All on board were killed. The fixing bolts had simply worn out although Handley Page had gone to great lengths to test the structural integrity all through its testing.
The second prototype was handed over to Boscombe Down in 1954 and into the hands of Geoffrey Fletcher OC 'B' Wing and a candidate of No 12 course at ETPS at Boscombe. He completed the trials of the Victor with some hairy moments but as he said at the time that the Victor "was a fine aircraft."
The Victor ended its days with the RAF in its main role as a bomber until 1974 when they were converted to tankers.
Like the Vulcan, an altogether superb history in a superb air force.
Sad it didn't continue - but that is history as they say.
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VP & Dan,
Excuse my ignorance for chipping in here - I am neither aircrew nor an engineer.
However, I do have a memory of discussing the Falklands War with personnel at Marham in the '80s: I was told that the ops did not adversely impact on the fatigue life - indeed, as there was no circuit-bashing around Ascension they actually benefited. Also, I was told that the volcanic soil polished-up the turbine blades nicely.
Was I being told a load of eyewash?
Excuse my ignorance for chipping in here - I am neither aircrew nor an engineer.
However, I do have a memory of discussing the Falklands War with personnel at Marham in the '80s: I was told that the ops did not adversely impact on the fatigue life - indeed, as there was no circuit-bashing around Ascension they actually benefited. Also, I was told that the volcanic soil polished-up the turbine blades nicely.
Was I being told a load of eyewash?
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Victor Fatigue
I had left Marham before the rush down South started; however, I was still concerned with the Victor from HQSTC and then HQ 1 Gp. My recollection is that the Victors were really severely caned during operations from the Island. True, there was little if any circuit bashing, but nearly all take-offs were at max TO weight, the aircraft were refuelled in the air to a higher weight - the max airborne AUW - and the aircraft spent long periods "in contact" receiving fuel.
The Victor had a very flexible wing and the life of the airframe was determined by the progressive weakening of the wing root structure through continual positive and negative bending load cycles. To measure these cycles, the aircraft were all fitted with fatigue meters. These recorded the number of times in a flight when certain "G" parameters were exceeded. I cannot remember the figures, but they would be something like: -.5, -.4, -.3 -.2, -.1 then +.1, +.2 ..... +.9, +1 (eg 2g on the cockpit meter) The counts for each g excursion were shown in windows on the meter in the bomb bay - each window having a letter to identify it. The readings at the start of a sortie were recorded, and then again after landing. After subtracting the starting figures, you could get a g loading profile for the sortie eg A 0, B 2, C 9, D 87, E 236, F 198, G 107 and so on. On calm days doing a navigation exercise, the figures would be low; on a bumpy day doing receiver training or long periods in contact refuelling, the figures could be very high. Regardless, the figures could be entered into a formula, and the proportion of "Fatigue Index (FI)" units consumed on a sortie calculated. This might be as low as 0.1 units for example, or much higher. The K 2s entered service with a life of 100 FI, and I believe after some further modifications, it was raised to 125 FI, or even higher. Perhaps someone out there knows the actual figures.
However, meter reading figures were factored in the formula taking into account the take off weight, landing weight, maximum airborne AUW (from fuel received), time spent receiving fuel, and sortie pattern. As you can imagine, the pattern of South Atlantic operations would have resulted in the fatigue units consumed being heavily factored to a level very much higher than in routine operations. Thus, the Victors lost a large chunk of their fleet fatigue life, and measures such as the aileron upset increase were introduced to allow the fleet to continue operations until 1993 when all AAR responsibilities were passed to the VC 10s and Tristars.
Hope that covers the subject!!
By the way, the "Victor Cockpit Visibility" thread makes interesting reading if you have not seen it.
Bob
The Victor had a very flexible wing and the life of the airframe was determined by the progressive weakening of the wing root structure through continual positive and negative bending load cycles. To measure these cycles, the aircraft were all fitted with fatigue meters. These recorded the number of times in a flight when certain "G" parameters were exceeded. I cannot remember the figures, but they would be something like: -.5, -.4, -.3 -.2, -.1 then +.1, +.2 ..... +.9, +1 (eg 2g on the cockpit meter) The counts for each g excursion were shown in windows on the meter in the bomb bay - each window having a letter to identify it. The readings at the start of a sortie were recorded, and then again after landing. After subtracting the starting figures, you could get a g loading profile for the sortie eg A 0, B 2, C 9, D 87, E 236, F 198, G 107 and so on. On calm days doing a navigation exercise, the figures would be low; on a bumpy day doing receiver training or long periods in contact refuelling, the figures could be very high. Regardless, the figures could be entered into a formula, and the proportion of "Fatigue Index (FI)" units consumed on a sortie calculated. This might be as low as 0.1 units for example, or much higher. The K 2s entered service with a life of 100 FI, and I believe after some further modifications, it was raised to 125 FI, or even higher. Perhaps someone out there knows the actual figures.
However, meter reading figures were factored in the formula taking into account the take off weight, landing weight, maximum airborne AUW (from fuel received), time spent receiving fuel, and sortie pattern. As you can imagine, the pattern of South Atlantic operations would have resulted in the fatigue units consumed being heavily factored to a level very much higher than in routine operations. Thus, the Victors lost a large chunk of their fleet fatigue life, and measures such as the aileron upset increase were introduced to allow the fleet to continue operations until 1993 when all AAR responsibilities were passed to the VC 10s and Tristars.
Hope that covers the subject!!
By the way, the "Victor Cockpit Visibility" thread makes interesting reading if you have not seen it.
Bob
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"By the way, the "Victor Cockpit Visibility" thread makes interesting reading if you have not seen it"
At another Victor place, and being an ectomorph (apparently) I was "privileged" to be chosen to crawl inside the fuel tanks on occasions to look for cladosporium resinae. A suitable penance I can assure you.
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Victor Memories!
Hi Bob,
I've been following the comments on your recent escapade with interest... At least we know the full story now. I'm looking forward to your book - it should be interesting. Iwas an AEO on 55 at Honington and Marham, followed by 230 OCU and back to Marham on 232 OCU - some 11 years of that lovely aircraft....
I may have some photos of various 'events' with the Victor. I'll look them out when I get back to the UK on retirement (at last).
regards,
John Pethard ([email protected])
I've been following the comments on your recent escapade with interest... At least we know the full story now. I'm looking forward to your book - it should be interesting. Iwas an AEO on 55 at Honington and Marham, followed by 230 OCU and back to Marham on 232 OCU - some 11 years of that lovely aircraft....
I may have some photos of various 'events' with the Victor. I'll look them out when I get back to the UK on retirement (at last).
regards,
John Pethard ([email protected])
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Newark Meet
Hi, As an ex 543 squadron leccy I would like some info on the 2010 meet at Newark when it is available. We had both Valiants and Victors (The Queen of the Sky) before the Tanker Wallahs got their hands on either ! Happily we did not have to lower our standards and accept Flying Flat Irons !
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Hi all
My Dad served with XV at Cottesmore from 58-61 and the past two years it has been my privilege to attend the Squadron Association Dinner with him, last year at Brampton, this year at Cottesmore.
I actually prepared a feature for the website I write for on the subject and hope no one will mind me including a link as it contains some of the photos from Dad's collection. I can post some more of them here if people are interested - they have been on PPRUNE before but lord know's where!
Global Aviation Resource
He's on holiday this week but I'll make sure he signs up and check's in on his return!
Thanks
Gareth
My Dad served with XV at Cottesmore from 58-61 and the past two years it has been my privilege to attend the Squadron Association Dinner with him, last year at Brampton, this year at Cottesmore.
I actually prepared a feature for the website I write for on the subject and hope no one will mind me including a link as it contains some of the photos from Dad's collection. I can post some more of them here if people are interested - they have been on PPRUNE before but lord know's where!
Global Aviation Resource
He's on holiday this week but I'll make sure he signs up and check's in on his return!
Thanks
Gareth
Gareth
I don't see your dad's name on my address list for the V-Force Reunion at Newark next April. Make sure he has a look at the website and if he likes he can also post some of his Victor pictures on the website gallery. Nice to see B1's looking all shiny and white
Can anyone enlighten me about the subsequent career of XA935 (seen in the picture). Global Resources have it as struck off charge on 30 April 1974, and it falls in the series of B1s which were converted to K1s which were all allocated to 214 squadron. I joined 214 in 1971 and was under the impression that I had flown in all the squadron's aircraft, but this one doesnt appear in my logbook and I dont remember it at all. Was it permanently in the hangar before being flown off to St Athan? Silly really, but this is one of those things that annoy you when you have nothing more important to think about!
TTN
I don't see your dad's name on my address list for the V-Force Reunion at Newark next April. Make sure he has a look at the website and if he likes he can also post some of his Victor pictures on the website gallery. Nice to see B1's looking all shiny and white
Can anyone enlighten me about the subsequent career of XA935 (seen in the picture). Global Resources have it as struck off charge on 30 April 1974, and it falls in the series of B1s which were converted to K1s which were all allocated to 214 squadron. I joined 214 in 1971 and was under the impression that I had flown in all the squadron's aircraft, but this one doesnt appear in my logbook and I dont remember it at all. Was it permanently in the hangar before being flown off to St Athan? Silly really, but this is one of those things that annoy you when you have nothing more important to think about!
TTN
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 14th Oct 2009 at 08:54.
Those who flew Fred's Bent Wing Thing as a tanker will be sad to learn that Dave Foulger passed away recently.
Described in the ARSAG Newsletter as a 'Giant of Air Refueling', which is true more of his capability than perhaps his dimensions, he was an inspiration to novices and old sages alike. He took his energy and enthusiasm to Flight Refuelling Limited after retiring from the RAF, where he worked until recent years.
Bye bye, Dave, RIP.
Described in the ARSAG Newsletter as a 'Giant of Air Refueling', which is true more of his capability than perhaps his dimensions, he was an inspiration to novices and old sages alike. He took his energy and enthusiasm to Flight Refuelling Limited after retiring from the RAF, where he worked until recent years.
Bye bye, Dave, RIP.
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Hi TTN
I'll make sure he knows about it when he gets back next week!
Here's some additional photos for your perusal, not all great quality but worth a look all the same!
Rgds
Gareth
Dad on the far left........
St Mawgan detachment
Visitors from Alconbury
Off to Canada (I must get round to levelling this scan!)
I'll make sure he knows about it when he gets back next week!
Here's some additional photos for your perusal, not all great quality but worth a look all the same!
Rgds
Gareth
Dad on the far left........
St Mawgan detachment
Visitors from Alconbury
Off to Canada (I must get round to levelling this scan!)
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Memories
Hi John, How good to see your name on my screen!! I am building up a contact list of Victor guys from our vintage, and have great memories of those days. Do you remember Paul Gausden? Meeting him next month... Where have you been all this time? LOL? Bob
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15 Sqn and Victors
Gareth, Was very interested to see your post, and its link. Any chance of meeting your Father, and any contact with Dave Bywater? Dave was ahead of me at Cranwell but we met quite a few times in later years. I would greatly appreciate the chance to talk to him about B Sqn Victor testing. Do you have a contact e mail for the 15 sqn assn sec? Thanks for your help, Bob Prothero Just ex 15 Sqn!!
PS I note that some of your great pics show 10 Sqn aircraft. Could the crew climbing up the ladder be a 10 Sqn crew? I think I recognise two of them.......
PS I note that some of your great pics show 10 Sqn aircraft. Could the crew climbing up the ladder be a 10 Sqn crew? I think I recognise two of them.......
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Those who flew Fred's Bent Wing Thing as a tanker will be sad to learn that Dave Foulger passed away recently.
Described in the ARSAG Newsletter as a 'Giant of Air Refueling', which is true more of his capability than perhaps his dimensions, he was an inspiration to novices and old sages alike. He took his energy and enthusiasm to Flight Refuelling Limited after retiring from the RAF, where he worked until recent years.
Bye bye, Dave, RIP.
Described in the ARSAG Newsletter as a 'Giant of Air Refueling', which is true more of his capability than perhaps his dimensions, he was an inspiration to novices and old sages alike. He took his energy and enthusiasm to Flight Refuelling Limited after retiring from the RAF, where he worked until recent years.
Bye bye, Dave, RIP.
'Manuelita' and I will be attending the V-force reunion next April (provided the snow has thawed enough to enable us to get out of here) and we hope to meet up with many of our Victor (and Vulcan) friends.
An ex-Vulcan AEO (more infamous as a Buccaneer driver) was staying with me a few weeks ago and he told me about the V-Force reunion. - We will be there.
Unfortunately, it's far too easy to loose contact with people once you leave the service - and I was always renowned for taking the easy way out.
Manuel - aka Rupert, aka 'that f*****ng useless nav radar', aka Bluespear (for a short while between 82 and 86)
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Gareth's photo of XA 941 reminded me of an incident when it had trouble lowering one main leg. A foam carpet was put down at Wittering and the pilot landed keeping the aircraft on the two remaining wheels until it just about stopped with very little damage at all. The story goes that civilian fire engines were lined up on the A1 outside the camp entrance because nobody told the "snoop" on the gate what was happening.