YMML queue rwy 16 yesterday
Made it to the paper:
Airservices under fire over long ground delays at Melbourne Airport
Airservices under fire over long ground delays at Melbourne Airport
Airlines are struggling to understand why dozens of flights were placed into a 90-minute queue for takeoff at Melbourne Airport on Wednesday, when bad weather reduced operations to a single runway.
Rather than keep flights at the gate, aircraft continued to be added to the queue with up to 25 planes lined up at one point.
As a result two United Airlines’ flights were cancelled when it became apparent the crew would run out of hours, and other flights had to return to the gate to top up fuel supplies. Pilots were fuming about the debacle, which came as Airservices Australia sought to increase its charges to airlines for air traffic control and fire and rescue.
“It was a joke,” said one pilot caught up in the mayhem.
“Co-ordinator for pushback clearance, OK, we call, he gives approval. He did this despite knowing we had a 90-minute taxi delay ahead of us.”
READ MORE: Airservices cans plan for ‘inclusive’ changerooms
An Airservices spokeswoman said the ground delays were “purely weather and safety-related to safeguard the travelling public”.
It’s understood strong winds made the use of the east-west runway unsafe, and low cloud limited air traffic controllers’ ability to put aircraft through on the north-south runway.
Melbourne Airport chief of aviation Jim Parashos confirmed strong wind gusts resulted in “significant delays to arrivals and departures as well as the cancellation of some flights”.
“Melbourne Airport has submitted plans to the Commonwealth government for a parallel north-south runway that will help reduce delays for airlines and passengers in circumstances such as yesterday,” Mr Parashos said.
Single runway operations were again in place at Melbourne Airport on Thursday but delays were being kept to a minimum.
The issues capped off a day of chaos for airlines and passengers, with afternoon thunderstorms in Sydney adding to the disruption.
Qantas was forced to cancel 23 flights due to weather across Qantas domestic, international and QantasLink.
Another three services and two Jetstar flights had to divert to Canberra to refuel after being placed in lengthy holding patterns over Sydney.
All made it to Sydney within 90 minutes of their scheduled arrival time.
Virgin Australia cancelled 29 flights in total but was able to recover the majority of guests on Thursday services.
A Sydney Airport spokeswoman said storm activity was the issue although both runways remained open.
The upheaval came as the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission seek the views of the aviation industry on a proposed price increase by Airservices for its air traffic control and aviation fire and rescue operations.
Four price increases were proposed between April 2024 and January 2026 which would collectively increase the price for airline services by 19 per cent.
The planned hike was the first since 2015, and followed a 2 per cent decrease in 2019.
ACCC commissioner Liza Carver said Airservices was the only declared provider of air traffic control and aviation firefighting services, so any price increases must be assessed carefully.
Figures provided by Airservices Australia showed an airline flying a Boeing 737-800 from Melbourne to Brisbane currently incurred a cost per passenger of about $13.
From next April that would climb to $14 a passenger.
International flights currently incurred a cost of about $35 a passenger, which would jump to $37 after the first increase in 2024.
“We want to hear the aviation industry’s views on Airservices Australia’s proposal, in particular the domestic and international airlines that operate in Australian airspace,” said Ms Carver.
Airservices has been in the process of recruiting more air traffic controllers after repeated shortages caused major disruption for airlines earlier this year.
The recruitment drive aimed to add another 80 controllers by mid-2024.
Rather than keep flights at the gate, aircraft continued to be added to the queue with up to 25 planes lined up at one point.
As a result two United Airlines’ flights were cancelled when it became apparent the crew would run out of hours, and other flights had to return to the gate to top up fuel supplies. Pilots were fuming about the debacle, which came as Airservices Australia sought to increase its charges to airlines for air traffic control and fire and rescue.
“It was a joke,” said one pilot caught up in the mayhem.
“Co-ordinator for pushback clearance, OK, we call, he gives approval. He did this despite knowing we had a 90-minute taxi delay ahead of us.”
READ MORE: Airservices cans plan for ‘inclusive’ changerooms
An Airservices spokeswoman said the ground delays were “purely weather and safety-related to safeguard the travelling public”.
It’s understood strong winds made the use of the east-west runway unsafe, and low cloud limited air traffic controllers’ ability to put aircraft through on the north-south runway.
Melbourne Airport chief of aviation Jim Parashos confirmed strong wind gusts resulted in “significant delays to arrivals and departures as well as the cancellation of some flights”.
“Melbourne Airport has submitted plans to the Commonwealth government for a parallel north-south runway that will help reduce delays for airlines and passengers in circumstances such as yesterday,” Mr Parashos said.
Single runway operations were again in place at Melbourne Airport on Thursday but delays were being kept to a minimum.
The issues capped off a day of chaos for airlines and passengers, with afternoon thunderstorms in Sydney adding to the disruption.
Qantas was forced to cancel 23 flights due to weather across Qantas domestic, international and QantasLink.
Another three services and two Jetstar flights had to divert to Canberra to refuel after being placed in lengthy holding patterns over Sydney.
All made it to Sydney within 90 minutes of their scheduled arrival time.
Virgin Australia cancelled 29 flights in total but was able to recover the majority of guests on Thursday services.
A Sydney Airport spokeswoman said storm activity was the issue although both runways remained open.
The upheaval came as the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission seek the views of the aviation industry on a proposed price increase by Airservices for its air traffic control and aviation fire and rescue operations.
Four price increases were proposed between April 2024 and January 2026 which would collectively increase the price for airline services by 19 per cent.
The planned hike was the first since 2015, and followed a 2 per cent decrease in 2019.
ACCC commissioner Liza Carver said Airservices was the only declared provider of air traffic control and aviation firefighting services, so any price increases must be assessed carefully.
Figures provided by Airservices Australia showed an airline flying a Boeing 737-800 from Melbourne to Brisbane currently incurred a cost per passenger of about $13.
From next April that would climb to $14 a passenger.
International flights currently incurred a cost of about $35 a passenger, which would jump to $37 after the first increase in 2024.
“We want to hear the aviation industry’s views on Airservices Australia’s proposal, in particular the domestic and international airlines that operate in Australian airspace,” said Ms Carver.
Airservices has been in the process of recruiting more air traffic controllers after repeated shortages caused major disruption for airlines earlier this year.
The recruitment drive aimed to add another 80 controllers by mid-2024.
We need to send some ATC folk for work on exchange in the USA - LAX, ORD, NYC, DFW TWR, TRACON, RAPCON - to experience, learn and bring back better ways to deal with high density traffic and bad weather.
Where do you put the arriving aircraft if you're all still parked at the gate?
Rest assured that Jase pockets over a million a year regardless of the service level.
The US had it's busiest day EVER a couple of days ago. Australia pulls it's dick over being at 80% over 3 years after covid, woo-hoo! Yay Australia
Until the airlines hold ASA to account things will NEVER change.
Last edited by Mr Mossberg; 30th Nov 2023 at 10:04.
Ah Mr Mossberg, once again ‘bewdiful”
but we are second best, I mean a UNITED Pilot once assured us!
and ML SY BN triangle one of the densist air traffic areas in the world….
Really? MUAC in Europe ( roughly size of VIC ) moved about 5000 jets above F245 in a day
When I looked at WRA / ASP / BKE combined as an example in 2015 umm 250 ? 300 mpvements a day
Just not worth getting in a pissing contest!
but we are second best, I mean a UNITED Pilot once assured us!
and ML SY BN triangle one of the densist air traffic areas in the world….
Really? MUAC in Europe ( roughly size of VIC ) moved about 5000 jets above F245 in a day
When I looked at WRA / ASP / BKE combined as an example in 2015 umm 250 ? 300 mpvements a day
Just not worth getting in a pissing contest!
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NCC re-branded as NOMC
Salvation (2024).
Establishment of the National Operations Management Centre (NOMC).
As part of efforts to realise airspace and network efficiencies in preparation for the arrival of the Civil-Military Air Traffic Management System (CMATS), Airservices Australia has created the National Operations Management Centre (NOMC). The NOMC will be responsible for the provision of nationally focussed network, aeronautical information and operations management.
NOMC
Establishment of the National Operations Management Centre (NOMC).
As part of efforts to realise airspace and network efficiencies in preparation for the arrival of the Civil-Military Air Traffic Management System (CMATS), Airservices Australia has created the National Operations Management Centre (NOMC). The NOMC will be responsible for the provision of nationally focussed network, aeronautical information and operations management.
NOMC
Try London to experience how it should be done. Seriously backward archaic practices here in Oz. Why the hell are we still reading back a PDC when DCL is available. The poms call you when to start. How simple is that? Even the Kiwis are way ahead with the use of DCL in AKL. The time and workload stuffing around with a PDC read back is the stuff for the third world. Oh how silly of me, that’s us.
Ah the old MEL SYD BNE is busy thing. Maybe from point to point on a nice orderly flow along pretty standard airways.
Europe with multiple airports with more movements than SYD or MEL scattered randomly anll over the place and aircraft departing all over the place. There is no comparison. SYD at it worst is tumbleweed town compared to a lot of Europe on a normal day.
And yes top marks for London controlling.
Europe with multiple airports with more movements than SYD or MEL scattered randomly anll over the place and aircraft departing all over the place. There is no comparison. SYD at it worst is tumbleweed town compared to a lot of Europe on a normal day.
And yes top marks for London controlling.
It is not hard, do what every other busy airport in the world does, have slot times, Expected Approach times and a start delay programme. At LHR they use to push us back from the gate, taxi us to a remote part of the airfield where we would shut down and await our start time..... Better than burning the gas.
Compressor Stall exactly!
A city pair statistic conveniently becomes the world's busiest air route.
But hey why let truth get in the way of an alternative fact when you are out to impress some dumb senators?
I fondly remember in the late 2000s standing in the foothills above Geneva at dusk with a wonderful Australian controller. Marvelling at the sheer number of contrails reflected in the light.
We both burst out laughing, nothing said, as we knew we were thinking the same thing.
Done and Done.
Perhaps you miss the point of the thread .
it wasn't ML RWY 16 IMC....it was the FAR QUEUE!
A city pair statistic conveniently becomes the world's busiest air route.
But hey why let truth get in the way of an alternative fact when you are out to impress some dumb senators?
I fondly remember in the late 2000s standing in the foothills above Geneva at dusk with a wonderful Australian controller. Marvelling at the sheer number of contrails reflected in the light.
We both burst out laughing, nothing said, as we knew we were thinking the same thing.
Done and Done.
Perhaps you miss the point of the thread .
it wasn't ML RWY 16 IMC....it was the FAR QUEUE!
Try London to experience how it should be done. Seriously backward archaic practices here in Oz. Why the hell are we still reading back a PDC when DCL is available. The poms call you when to start. How simple is that? Even the Kiwis are way ahead with the use of DCL in AKL. The time and workload stuffing around with a PDC read back is the stuff for the third world. Oh how silly of me, that’s us.
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Compressor Stall exactly!
A city pair statistic conveniently becomes the world's busiest air route.
But hey why let truth get in the way of an alternative fact when you are out to impress some dumb senators?
I fondly remember in the late 2000s standing in the foothills above Geneva at dusk with a wonderful Australian controller. Marvelling at the sheer number of contrails reflected in the light.
We both burst out laughing, nothing said, as we knew we were thinking the same thing.
Done and Done.
Perhaps you miss the point of the thread .
it wasn't ML RWY 16 IMC....it was the FAR QUEUE!
A city pair statistic conveniently becomes the world's busiest air route.
But hey why let truth get in the way of an alternative fact when you are out to impress some dumb senators?
I fondly remember in the late 2000s standing in the foothills above Geneva at dusk with a wonderful Australian controller. Marvelling at the sheer number of contrails reflected in the light.
We both burst out laughing, nothing said, as we knew we were thinking the same thing.
Done and Done.
Perhaps you miss the point of the thread .
it wasn't ML RWY 16 IMC....it was the FAR QUEUE!
Having to sit there and watch it is excruciating, not being able to do anything about it as an operator is infuriating.
There is a better way.
If you're waiting for line controllers to provide a solution I believe we are all just done and done to be honest.
You might suggest that Airline management is crap, you lot should try Airservices....
We're at the point we'd take on Joyce...I know, I can't believe I just wrote that!! But we are a basket case at Airservices.
Last edited by Done and done; 30th Nov 2023 at 22:03.
As a country we’re not exactly cutting edge in any other industry.
And you only need to look at the recent performance of Qantas, OPTUS, and the Banks to see a clear demonstration of the **** performance of big business here in the (un)Lucky Country.
It’s an Australia problem - we are a lazy country
It’s not as simple as “blame ASA”.
Why doesn’t Melbourne have 4 runways?
(why are they debating which way a 3rd runway goes?? All that’s going to make is another Sydney - crosswind/one runway creates chaos)
Why doesn’t Perth have 2 parallel runways?
(The worst airport in Australia by far, also makes a 42% profit margin during the end of COVID!!)
Why did it take 50 years to start building Western Sydney?
Why were the Wagners (Wellcamp) laughed at when they showed a bit of vision?
Why does Melbourne still NOT have an airport train?
Why did it the initial plan for Western Sydney NOT have a train connection?
DO YOU SEE A TREND?!
We are lazy. On top of this policy does not encourage innovation or improvement. OH&S is a case in point, when was a bad “safety improvement” ever removed or reviewed as to its effectiveness?!
Change the landing fee structure so the airports have some “skin in the game”:
- first 5-10 minutes of airborne delay “free”
- from 10 minutes the landing fees are pro-rata down to $0 by 30 minutes.
Watch how fast they build runways!!
Or even high speed exits, which you’d think had never been invented….
As for ASA, build proper STARS that didn’t need the f$&@ing stupid “descend via” calls. We are all saying this but has anyone asked why?! Anyone been to the USA?
“cleared the XYZ arrival” - no other calls required because the STAR has all the height and speed requirements built in. No wasted radio calls!!
Why doesn’t Melbourne have 4 runways?
(why are they debating which way a 3rd runway goes?? All that’s going to make is another Sydney - crosswind/one runway creates chaos)
Why doesn’t Perth have 2 parallel runways?
(The worst airport in Australia by far, also makes a 42% profit margin during the end of COVID!!)
Why did it take 50 years to start building Western Sydney?
Why were the Wagners (Wellcamp) laughed at when they showed a bit of vision?
Why does Melbourne still NOT have an airport train?
Why did it the initial plan for Western Sydney NOT have a train connection?
DO YOU SEE A TREND?!
We are lazy. On top of this policy does not encourage innovation or improvement. OH&S is a case in point, when was a bad “safety improvement” ever removed or reviewed as to its effectiveness?!
Change the landing fee structure so the airports have some “skin in the game”:
- first 5-10 minutes of airborne delay “free”
- from 10 minutes the landing fees are pro-rata down to $0 by 30 minutes.
Watch how fast they build runways!!
Or even high speed exits, which you’d think had never been invented….
As for ASA, build proper STARS that didn’t need the f$&@ing stupid “descend via” calls. We are all saying this but has anyone asked why?! Anyone been to the USA?
“cleared the XYZ arrival” - no other calls required because the STAR has all the height and speed requirements built in. No wasted radio calls!!
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As for ASA, build proper STARS that didn’t need the f$&@ing stupid “descend via” calls. We are all saying this but has anyone asked why?! Anyone been to the USA?
“cleared the XYZ arrival” - no other calls required because the STAR has all the height and speed requirements built in. No wasted radio calls!!
“cleared the XYZ arrival” - no other calls required because the STAR has all the height and speed requirements built in. No wasted radio calls!!
Last edited by MickG0105; 1st Dec 2023 at 00:14.
Why do we say “descend 9000 via the STAR” when there’s no height requirements on the chart?
We’ve already been cleared the STAR as part of the airways clearance, it’d be like requesting a level change in the cruise and ATC saying “cleared to climb FL300 via flight plan route”
Anyway, like I said, not particularly smart or efficient.
They did this effectively at Pudong , Beijing, Chen Lap Kok and even Kai Tak over 20 years ago.
I hope this thread is drifting along the lines of "lets not blame the controllers'. I seriously think they do the best job they can do with what is available to them. They are great - its a system issue, and Australia's BS corporate culture of get less people doing more work, cut costs, up profits and reward execs. And this corporate greed culture leaves a trail of underperforming processes and practices and totally burned out workers.
Hang in there controllers.
From grateful and understanding pilot.
Hang in there controllers.
From grateful and understanding pilot.
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I hope this thread is drifting along the lines of "lets not blame the controllers'. I seriously think they do the best job they can do with what is available to them. They are great - its a system issue, and Australia's BS corporate culture of get less people doing more work, cut costs, up profits and reward execs. And this corporate greed culture leaves a trail of underperforming processes and practices and totally burned out workers.
Hang in there controllers.
From grateful and understanding pilot.
Hang in there controllers.
From grateful and understanding pilot.
I hope this thread is drifting along the lines of "lets not blame the controllers'. I seriously think they do the best job they can do with what is available to them.
) and all the other rubbish over the years, nobody blames the controllers. ASA management will tell you repeatedly how good they are. RS and JH are masters of this garbage. You might want to have a look at those two fellows super balances.Australia is the master of mediocrity.
I'd recommend a table outside at the Proud Bird close to LAX airport at peak arrival times. That'll tell you everything you need to know about any major Australian airport.
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