ANZ Erebus crash 28 November 1979 - 34 years later.
Interesting Tartare.
I have never been in management ranks so my thoughts/ opinions/ knowledge come straight from the line. I would love to know if the folk you were working with ( in your opinion) realised that their attitude towards flight safety directly impacted the attitude towards flight safety on the flight decks of their airline?
Do you think they knew that their airlines safety culture was never static and was influenced by the messages, both direct and indirect, that came down from on high?
I'd love to know.
Framer
I have never been in management ranks so my thoughts/ opinions/ knowledge come straight from the line. I would love to know if the folk you were working with ( in your opinion) realised that their attitude towards flight safety directly impacted the attitude towards flight safety on the flight decks of their airline?
Do you think they knew that their airlines safety culture was never static and was influenced by the messages, both direct and indirect, that came down from on high?
I'd love to know.
Framer
Guest
Posts: n/a
The previous flight that diverted went to the South Magnetic Pole area.
Apologise for the memory lapse.
Hello Framer, thanks for your reply.
I must admit that it concerns me deeply to hear you say that executive level messaging affects flight safety on the line.
When I went out to the base at Auckland airport in my management white shirt and tie, I used to breath a sigh of relief (inhale some Jet A1 fumes!) and think to myself "these guys are too sensible to let any white collar management bollocks affect flight safety."
That was certainly the experience I had - corporate stuff was met with a wry smile from the grey heads up on the flight deck.
My sense was that airline pilots were a little like doctors in that respect.
Management can say all they like, but when you're up in the air with a couple of hundred souls down the back, you are in charge, and your `oath to safety' so to speak overides anything else.
Does that answer your question?
I must admit that it concerns me deeply to hear you say that executive level messaging affects flight safety on the line.
When I went out to the base at Auckland airport in my management white shirt and tie, I used to breath a sigh of relief (inhale some Jet A1 fumes!) and think to myself "these guys are too sensible to let any white collar management bollocks affect flight safety."
That was certainly the experience I had - corporate stuff was met with a wry smile from the grey heads up on the flight deck.
My sense was that airline pilots were a little like doctors in that respect.
Management can say all they like, but when you're up in the air with a couple of hundred souls down the back, you are in charge, and your `oath to safety' so to speak overides anything else.
Does that answer your question?
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: South of equator
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting this one.
One of the basics of airmanship is situational awareness and the PIC is ultimately responsible for this in a given airspace.
However to recognise this and make an informed decision the PIC needs to have the necessary training in the first place.
So where does "whiteout" fit into this tragic accident?.
As an aside Ansett destroyed itself with it's strong unionism. It didn't need Air NZ's help!!.
One of the basics of airmanship is situational awareness and the PIC is ultimately responsible for this in a given airspace.
However to recognise this and make an informed decision the PIC needs to have the necessary training in the first place.
So where does "whiteout" fit into this tragic accident?.
As an aside Ansett destroyed itself with it's strong unionism. It didn't need Air NZ's help!!.
Tartare,
A poster called SafetyPee posted a link to a study that was completed in 2001 in another thread. I was reading the Executive Summary of the report and one sentence reminded me of what you posted here so I'll copy it in.
Basically, even though flight crew have high standards etc, what management does and says can over ride that in a negative way. The professional culture can be ( and normally is ) affected by the attitudes and beliefs of the current management. That makes sense because otherwise we wouldn't need any talk of leadership....management would be relegated to managing.
Have a good day,
Framer
A poster called SafetyPee posted a link to a study that was completed in 2001 in another thread. I was reading the Executive Summary of the report and one sentence reminded me of what you posted here so I'll copy it in.
A link between a negative organisational culture and negative attitudes and behaviour was established which would not necessarily be mitigated by the high level of professionalism of flight crews.
Have a good day,
Framer
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Auckland
Age: 81
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not Nightowl
Had this PIC been tasked to land that would have been an entirely different matter, the balance of blame might have shifted to AirNZ - "necessary training". But he had received (1) sufficient training for overflight and (2) explicit instructions about descent below MSA, which he disobeyed without sufficient knowledge, cause or care.
Had the AINS not been reprogrammed he might have got away with it. That wouldn't have made him right, it would have made him lucky.
... basics of airmanship is situational awareness ... to make an informed decision the PIC needs to have the necessary training ... where does "whiteout" fit ...
Had the AINS not been reprogrammed he might have got away with it. That wouldn't have made him right, it would have made him lucky.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 926
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tartare wrote
Very true. It is easy to have learned opinions about how things should be done if you don't also have the responsibilty for the outcome.
I always listened to their views, but got a bit irritated when a paramedical told me how to do something in an insistent way, when they did not carry the can for it when or if it went wrong for the patient.
That is where the responsibility of command in flying is very similar.
I have followed the Mt Erebus accident closely over the years, and read the Mahon and Vette books, and the Royal Commision and original accident reports. Gordon Vette and Justice Mahon were courageous and decent men.
All I can say is "there but by the grace of God go I" to anyone who chucks armchair opinions about the crew.
My sense was that airline pilots were a little like doctors in that respect.
Management can say all they like, but when you're up in the air with a couple of hundred souls down the back, you are in charge, and your `oath to safety' so to speak overides anything else.
Management can say all they like, but when you're up in the air with a couple of hundred souls down the back, you are in charge, and your `oath to safety' so to speak overides anything else.
I always listened to their views, but got a bit irritated when a paramedical told me how to do something in an insistent way, when they did not carry the can for it when or if it went wrong for the patient.
That is where the responsibility of command in flying is very similar.
I have followed the Mt Erebus accident closely over the years, and read the Mahon and Vette books, and the Royal Commision and original accident reports. Gordon Vette and Justice Mahon were courageous and decent men.
All I can say is "there but by the grace of God go I" to anyone who chucks armchair opinions about the crew.
Last edited by rjtjrt; 2nd May 2014 at 11:17. Reason: Correction of a name
Interestingly found a signed copy of 'Impact Erebus' in an oppie y'day.
GV had signed it to one 'Mervyn' who seems to have been a pro aviator in some capacity, as there were quite a few related books in a batch, including the L'Estrange highly slanted one. GV's book is full of insights that no other person involved in the enquiry could have come up with. The sad thing about GV today is the terrible things that a stroke can do to your senses. Remember your aspirin prooners one and all.
GV had signed it to one 'Mervyn' who seems to have been a pro aviator in some capacity, as there were quite a few related books in a batch, including the L'Estrange highly slanted one. GV's book is full of insights that no other person involved in the enquiry could have come up with. The sad thing about GV today is the terrible things that a stroke can do to your senses. Remember your aspirin prooners one and all.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not only did he break the rules written to safeguard his passengers, he showed poor airmanship
But he had received (1) sufficient training for overflight and (2) explicit instructions about descent below MSA, which he disobeyed without sufficient knowledge, cause or care.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: New Zealand
Age: 71
Posts: 1,475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fantome, that was a great score, well done. A fine piece of history you have collected, and to think it was dumped in a second hand store.
Gordon Vette was a brilliant mind, intelligent man who could certainly define sh#t from clay. He has been ill for some years now, and it is an absolute crying shame that his mind be cut short by one of the ravages of this world we live in.
Gordon Vette was a brilliant mind, intelligent man who could certainly define sh#t from clay. He has been ill for some years now, and it is an absolute crying shame that his mind be cut short by one of the ravages of this world we live in.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Auckland
Age: 81
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Give it a rest, ornis
Erebus Disaster|Mt Erebus Plane Crash OFFICAL Facts Website|1979 Air NZ|NZALPA
Erebus disaster - the story and the facts. About the Mt Erebus plane crash
Jim Collins Memorial Award
The Flight Path Controversy
Give it a rest, NZALPA.
This website is hosted and maintained by the New Zealand Air Line Pilots' Association © 2009 NZALPA.
It is the multi-faceted nature of the causes of the disaster that make the Erebus story eternally relevant and compelling. NZALPA trusts that the resources gathered on this website will both inform and evoke reflection and discussion, thus keeping the story alive.
NZALPA President ... announced the memorial trophy [which became] THE JIM COLLINS MEMORIAL AWARD FOR EXCEPTIONAL CONTRIBUTION TO AVIATION SAFETY
Through little fault of their own, this crew lost situational awareness before the aircraft had left the ground,
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: New Zealand
Age: 71
Posts: 1,475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NZALPA did what it should and stuck behind the deceased crew. Dead men can't talk, they can't defend themselves, they can't speak about the facts so somebody had to keep the dead crews dignity alive.
Judging from some of the posts on here it would seem that some of the old CAA, Muldoon supporters and ANZ hierarchy are still blinded by arrogance, egos and pride.
I now await Ornis to reignite his Perpignan obsession, to try and tie that accident in with Erebus and then demand answers from me as to why I 'didn't resign over Perpignan'?
Judging from some of the posts on here it would seem that some of the old CAA, Muldoon supporters and ANZ hierarchy are still blinded by arrogance, egos and pride.
I now await Ornis to reignite his Perpignan obsession, to try and tie that accident in with Erebus and then demand answers from me as to why I 'didn't resign over Perpignan'?
oim tinkin' the only man missing from the fool circularity
of dis here blather is de Rev'rend Ian Paisley.
what Para said . . . .. accord the deceased some respect
some modicum of dignity
of dis here blather is de Rev'rend Ian Paisley.
what Para said . . . .. accord the deceased some respect
some modicum of dignity
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Auckland
Age: 81
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was an old PPRuNer called Paragraph
Who blamed Air New Zealand office staff
As much as he bleated
His propaganda was greeted
With two fingers, harsh words and a laugh.
Who blamed Air New Zealand office staff
As much as he bleated
His propaganda was greeted
With two fingers, harsh words and a laugh.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A typical infantile, and not completely unexpected reply, from one who wishes to denigrate Captain Collins, and those who have the temerity to stand in his corner.
Mods, I think it's time to get the key out, no good can come from the likes of the previous post.
Mods, I think it's time to get the key out, no good can come from the likes of the previous post.