Luton SID
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Luton SID
Hello,
I am a not based in LUT and was today flying with an F/O who has been there for two years. Generally then his local knowledge should be better than mine.
We had a difference of opinion re the OLNEY 1B departure clearance in that I briefed be 346 radial 9 BNN at 5,000' and 15 BNN at 6,000. His view was that we had to maintain 5,000' because
(a) The initial ground clearance did not mention the words "stepped climb".
(b) Note 5 of the departure plate says do not climb above SID level (not levels) until instructed by ATC.
Is there ever a circumstance where you require 5,000' to be maintained and what is the correct terminology you would use to cancel the 6,000' requirement?
Thanks in advance.
I am a not based in LUT and was today flying with an F/O who has been there for two years. Generally then his local knowledge should be better than mine.
We had a difference of opinion re the OLNEY 1B departure clearance in that I briefed be 346 radial 9 BNN at 5,000' and 15 BNN at 6,000. His view was that we had to maintain 5,000' because
(a) The initial ground clearance did not mention the words "stepped climb".
(b) Note 5 of the departure plate says do not climb above SID level (not levels) until instructed by ATC.
Is there ever a circumstance where you require 5,000' to be maintained and what is the correct terminology you would use to cancel the 6,000' requirement?
Thanks in advance.
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My Jepp plate clearly states exactly what you said in the text box 5000 by 9 and 6000 by 15 the only part that gives you either or is at db6 4000 max 5000 .
I dont see anything about stepping and the warning states that you must adhere to the stepped climb .
I dont see anything about stepping and the warning states that you must adhere to the stepped climb .
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I do not work this bit, so cannot say what atc there expect, but out of curiosity, what level were you cleared to before take-off? Was it 5000ft or 6000ft? If the latter then as per the SID. If the former, I'd stop at 5000, but then check with atc anyway!
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I work this bit of airspace.
Due to the interaction of LL traffic on WOB SID's I nearly always give a heading after 4A and an altitude/FL to climb to.
Within the LTMA, I would think that aircraft rarely fly to the end of the SID.
I have to rely on the fact that aircraft will fly the stepped climb's.
As a matter of interest, what level did you put in your FMS for this SID, 4A, 5A, or 6A ?
We have mode 'S', so we can see your selected level
Due to the interaction of LL traffic on WOB SID's I nearly always give a heading after 4A and an altitude/FL to climb to.
Within the LTMA, I would think that aircraft rarely fly to the end of the SID.
I have to rely on the fact that aircraft will fly the stepped climb's.
As a matter of interest, what level did you put in your FMS for this SID, 4A, 5A, or 6A ?
We have mode 'S', so we can see your selected level
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I also would like the ATC answer
very interested in the answer, as my Yank friends, and I always differ...
I always put the first limit in the alt select box.
I can not remember the FMS preset alts, but certain they are as per the SID step climb.
If you can see the Alt selected (which I know LON TMA can), please remember also that we have the option of VClimb, and the FMS climbs as per the sid, and the alt select shows the last level of the SID. Until recleared to another alt/FL.
Also who do LTN ATC, say caution stepped climb, and not a specific 1st cleared / expected alt / lvl. This actually caused some of the errors.
The sid plate several years ago, stated in BOLD the alt, but now it does not.
I know LTN STN are the worlds best alt busts on departure, so perhaps a little front end assist might be in order.
Landoutagain: Defeats the object of a SID, and the sarcastic comments from one or two ATC's.
GlF
I always put the first limit in the alt select box.
I can not remember the FMS preset alts, but certain they are as per the SID step climb.
If you can see the Alt selected (which I know LON TMA can), please remember also that we have the option of VClimb, and the FMS climbs as per the sid, and the alt select shows the last level of the SID. Until recleared to another alt/FL.
Also who do LTN ATC, say caution stepped climb, and not a specific 1st cleared / expected alt / lvl. This actually caused some of the errors.
The sid plate several years ago, stated in BOLD the alt, but now it does not.
I know LTN STN are the worlds best alt busts on departure, so perhaps a little front end assist might be in order.
Landoutagain: Defeats the object of a SID, and the sarcastic comments from one or two ATC's.
GlF
When you are given the OLY1B SID you are always given a 'maintain 5000'. as Over & Out said, it is due to the interaction with Heathrow departures.
Not long after the SID came in, a RYR B737-200 flew the SID and climbed to 6000 as per the instructions. Unfortunately a slow climbing Virgin B747-200 (shows how long ago this was!) was still struggling through 6000'.
The stepped climb warnings are on all the BPK SIDs off runway 26, and normally the CPT SID of runway 08. At the moment this has a 4000' restriction on it because the new SID conflicted with the London City northbounds. This will return to a stepped climb warning in September when another new CPT SID comes in.
The warnings are due to the number of level busts over the years.
Hope this helps.
Not long after the SID came in, a RYR B737-200 flew the SID and climbed to 6000 as per the instructions. Unfortunately a slow climbing Virgin B747-200 (shows how long ago this was!) was still struggling through 6000'.
The stepped climb warnings are on all the BPK SIDs off runway 26, and normally the CPT SID of runway 08. At the moment this has a 4000' restriction on it because the new SID conflicted with the London City northbounds. This will return to a stepped climb warning in September when another new CPT SID comes in.
The warnings are due to the number of level busts over the years.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by Level bust; 13th Jul 2010 at 08:34. Reason: Add further reply
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Thanks for the replies people...answers to the questions asked.
Landed - We put in 5,000' and were going to check with ATC.
O+Out (1) As you say in the event we did get heading and alt so didn't need to ask the question.
(2) The FMS reproduces precisely what is in the SID vertical profile and it will complain if the aircraft is not at 6,000' by 15 BNN (ATC cannot see this - but you can see the hard overide selection on the glareshield Mode Control Panel)
GS Av - It is also our SOP to enter on the MCP the first 5.000' stop alt BUT after 9 BNN to reselect 6,000' to facilitate the second stop alt before 15BNN.
So my new understanding is that if I (as a new transient pilot in LUT with no local knowledge) follow the published SID and FMC vertical profiles I will have an alt bust!!!!!!!
The words I should hear during my ground clearance (and I didn't in this case) are "maintain 5,000'. Also if I don't hear a reference to stepped climb this is an indirect reference to the cancellation of the 15BNN 6,000' requirement.
Fully expecting to be shot down on this one but I am interested to know if this is spelt out precisely in any official publication. My own CAP 413 is ancient ..but it does not use this terminology. Presumably there is some NATs documentation which does.
At the risk of sounding pessimistic I predict a few more alt busts from non locals. Some people (even if they are given "maintain 5,000") will consider that this is refering only to the initial stop alt. I understand the heading / alt protection from ATC but when one more hole in the swiss cheese incident model is lined up (say a busy controller due wx avoidance) then someone will follow what the SID and FMC are telling them to do!
Landed - We put in 5,000' and were going to check with ATC.
O+Out (1) As you say in the event we did get heading and alt so didn't need to ask the question.
(2) The FMS reproduces precisely what is in the SID vertical profile and it will complain if the aircraft is not at 6,000' by 15 BNN (ATC cannot see this - but you can see the hard overide selection on the glareshield Mode Control Panel)
GS Av - It is also our SOP to enter on the MCP the first 5.000' stop alt BUT after 9 BNN to reselect 6,000' to facilitate the second stop alt before 15BNN.
So my new understanding is that if I (as a new transient pilot in LUT with no local knowledge) follow the published SID and FMC vertical profiles I will have an alt bust!!!!!!!
The words I should hear during my ground clearance (and I didn't in this case) are "maintain 5,000'. Also if I don't hear a reference to stepped climb this is an indirect reference to the cancellation of the 15BNN 6,000' requirement.
Fully expecting to be shot down on this one but I am interested to know if this is spelt out precisely in any official publication. My own CAP 413 is ancient ..but it does not use this terminology. Presumably there is some NATs documentation which does.
At the risk of sounding pessimistic I predict a few more alt busts from non locals. Some people (even if they are given "maintain 5,000") will consider that this is refering only to the initial stop alt. I understand the heading / alt protection from ATC but when one more hole in the swiss cheese incident model is lined up (say a busy controller due wx avoidance) then someone will follow what the SID and FMC are telling them to do!
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If any unit gives you a climb to 5A, this will cancel any previous clearance.
Therfore if the tower say ''not above 5A'' that should cancel the SID climb to 6A, on the stepped climb profile.
See UP AIP AD2-EGGW-6-3. Here is clearly states ''stepped climb''
Therfore if the tower say ''not above 5A'' that should cancel the SID climb to 6A, on the stepped climb profile.
See UP AIP AD2-EGGW-6-3. Here is clearly states ''stepped climb''
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Over + Out -As far as stepped climb is concerned it seems we are saying the same thing - the SID requirements are clear?
If someone says not above altitude 5,000' I would agree that is unambiguous.
In my view if someone says maintain 5,000' on a SID where you have to maintain 5,000' for part of it anyway (before continuing a climb) then that could be open to misinterpretation.
What I am hoping for is someone to quote me the part of an authoratative document that says maintain 5,000' is the official way a stepped climb should be cancelled (as part of the initial clearance on the ground) ?
If someone says not above altitude 5,000' I would agree that is unambiguous.
In my view if someone says maintain 5,000' on a SID where you have to maintain 5,000' for part of it anyway (before continuing a climb) then that could be open to misinterpretation.
What I am hoping for is someone to quote me the part of an authoratative document that says maintain 5,000' is the official way a stepped climb should be cancelled (as part of the initial clearance on the ground) ?
Last edited by alosaurus; 13th Jul 2010 at 18:33. Reason: clarification
Also if I don't hear a reference to stepped climb this is an indirect reference to the cancellation of the 15BNN 6,000' requirement.
Fully expecting to be shot down on this one but I am interested to know if this is spelt out precisely in any official publication. My own CAP 413 is ancient ..but it does not use this terminology. Presumably there is some NATs documentation which does.
However, MATS Pt 1 S3 C1 is relevant:
20.7 Pilots of all aircraft flying instrument departures are required, on first contact, to
inform the approach/approach radar controller of their callsign, SID designator (if
appropriate), current or passing level and their cleared level. If the SID involves a
stepped climb profile then the initial altitude/flight level to which the aircraft is
climbing will be given. If the pilot does not provide the cleared level then controllers
shall, without delay, either confirm that the crew are climbing to the correct initial
level or clear the aircraft to climb to a higher altitude or flight level.
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I agree with Yahoo, and I've had many an argument about this. "Climb to altitude 5000 feet" means precisely that (and to maintain that level), "climb not above altitude 5000 feet" means the pilot may stop the climb at any level he chooses below 5000 feet, and may never actually reach 5000 feet. Therefore the clearance is neither terrain safe nor separated, which is fine only for VFR and Special VFR clearances.
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Sorry reportyourlevel, I have to disagree with you.
climb to 5A, means climb directly to 5A
climb not above 5A, means follow the SID, but do not go above 5A
The LTMA use this type of clearance all the time.
climb to 5A, means climb directly to 5A
climb not above 5A, means follow the SID, but do not go above 5A
The LTMA use this type of clearance all the time.
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I have understood "climb now to altitude 5000ft" to mean climb directly to altitude 5000ft, but "climb to altitude 5000ft" to mean climb as per the SID's restrictions. I am sure I have read a recent publication highlighting this as well. "Climb not above" is daft.
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Hi Bookworm,
Thanks for taking the time to look this up.
This statement
"Also if I don't hear a reference to stepped climb this is an indirect reference to the cancellation of the 15BNN 6,000' requirement. "
Was only mentioned in my initial post ....came from my local F/O ...sounds like an urban myth.
The SID initial altitude report would catch someone about to climb directly to 6,000' feet but would not stop the potential 5,000' level off followed by a later alt bust as they climb to 6,000',
I think you hit the nail on the head though when you said
"An explicit clearance to a higher level cancels any intermediate levels in the UK "
What I am trying to suggest is that "not above altitude 5,000'" is an explicit cancellation of the SID vertical profile beyond 5,000'.....it leaves no room for interpretation
If ATC tell me to maintain altitude 5,000' in the air this would be an explicit cancellation.
But am I really not convincing anyone that saying "maintain altitude 5,000" as part of the departure clearance (on a SID which requires you to do this for six miles anyway) is not as explicit. In a similar way to when we report the initial SID climb level on first contact....we are only saying that is where we will first maintain level flight....not that this is where we intend to stay.
Don't get me wrong..if ever I fly into Luton again I have bought the intention...but unless someone can dig up the phraseology section which says this (maintain altitude 5,000')is the correct way to cancel a stepped climb at the departure clearance phase (and I am therefore the only one on the planet who does not know this) then "if it can go wrong it will go wrong" may rear its ugly head in the future.
Thanks for taking the time to look this up.
This statement
"Also if I don't hear a reference to stepped climb this is an indirect reference to the cancellation of the 15BNN 6,000' requirement. "
Was only mentioned in my initial post ....came from my local F/O ...sounds like an urban myth.
The SID initial altitude report would catch someone about to climb directly to 6,000' feet but would not stop the potential 5,000' level off followed by a later alt bust as they climb to 6,000',
I think you hit the nail on the head though when you said
"An explicit clearance to a higher level cancels any intermediate levels in the UK "
What I am trying to suggest is that "not above altitude 5,000'" is an explicit cancellation of the SID vertical profile beyond 5,000'.....it leaves no room for interpretation
If ATC tell me to maintain altitude 5,000' in the air this would be an explicit cancellation.
But am I really not convincing anyone that saying "maintain altitude 5,000" as part of the departure clearance (on a SID which requires you to do this for six miles anyway) is not as explicit. In a similar way to when we report the initial SID climb level on first contact....we are only saying that is where we will first maintain level flight....not that this is where we intend to stay.
Don't get me wrong..if ever I fly into Luton again I have bought the intention...but unless someone can dig up the phraseology section which says this (maintain altitude 5,000')is the correct way to cancel a stepped climb at the departure clearance phase (and I am therefore the only one on the planet who does not know this) then "if it can go wrong it will go wrong" may rear its ugly head in the future.
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LOL QTime...I have done it once.....and, as discussed, it will probably be a non native crew that will be one of the holes in the cheese next time there is an alt bust...like this guy.
http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...ped-climb.html
http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...ped-climb.html
Just to clarify, we always say climb to 4000'/5000' (depending on which SID), we never say 'climb not above' as already said you only give that instruction to VFR/SVFR. In all the time we have been amending the SID no one has bust their level that I am aware of.
The SIDs where there is a stepped climb is a different matter, hence the warning, to be honest the level busts in the past have usually been down to foreign operators and I'm afraid to say usually corporate jets.
To those of you that have received a late amendment to the initial level, this is usually due to a restriction by the London TMA controller due to conflicting traffic, usually a City northbound.
The SIDs where there is a stepped climb is a different matter, hence the warning, to be honest the level busts in the past have usually been down to foreign operators and I'm afraid to say usually corporate jets.
To those of you that have received a late amendment to the initial level, this is usually due to a restriction by the London TMA controller due to conflicting traffic, usually a City northbound.
