Approach radar courses

[fddffgdfggg]

Hi guys I'm new here - nice to meet you all

I believe that there are some Approach Radar courses that you can take at either Cardiff or Bournemout. The one I'm after is the non-NATS one. Can anyone tell me what this is and where to find out more documentation about it - Bournemouth's web site seems non existent?

thanks

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Here's your starter for 10...
BAE Systems Cwmbran Training College

So far as I know - and that's not much - the NATS College at Hurn only takes it's own trainees or those sponsored by other organisations. I don't believe they take private students..

[bottom rung]

Try googling ASTAC at Gloucestershire airport as well.

[CLAMES]

Approach training

But Google VV Approach first .....

[separation]

VV approach - $1250

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Hmmmm... DIY eh? Using a PC eh? Not sure I'd spend that much on such a system.

[fddffgdfggg]

thanks guys - is it correct that there are NATS Approach radar courses and non-NATS approach radar courses? and if so which is better?

thanks

[fddffgdfggg]

also guys i got told that the course i should be taking is one that costs 14,000 pounds to take - is this correct or is it nonsense?

thanks!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

So far as i am aware, you will only get on to a NATS course if you are accepted for employment by NATS, or you are sponsored by an employer. Having been a NATS ATCO, my personal opinion is that NATS is the best.

[CLAMES]

HD,

Hmmmm... DIY eh? Using a PC eh? Not sure I'd spend that much on such a system.

How can you discard new technology so flippantly? Have you tried VV Approach? Times are changing, but unfortunately you are not keeping up with them. From this post and others you present yourself as a Yesterday Man desperately trying to retain past glories. You should not prejudice the future of young aspirants to ATC with uninformed comments like this.

CLAMES

[Barnaby the Bear]

So far as i am aware, you will only get on to a NATS course if you are accepted for employment by NATS, or you are sponsored by an employer. Having been a NATS ATCO, my personal opinion is that NATS is the best.

Understandably perhaps, but a slightly bias view.

The other courses available are at Cwmbran (BAE systems) or Gloucester (ASTAC).
NATS at Bournemouth, but I also understand its for NATS cadets only. Non-NATS airfields used to send ATCO's for training, but I don't know if that happens anymore with the other colleges available.
As an individual self sponsorship (expensive and financially risky if you don't have the aptitude) you would be looking at Cwmbran or ASTAC.

All courses and colleges (NATS and Non-NATS) are regulated by the CAA and have to provide an approved course and standard of instruction.
When I was at Bournemouth there were many instructors who had instructed at non-NATS colleges or worked for non-NATS establishments prior to joining NATS CATC.

IF you graduate and subsequently validate at/from a non NATS establishment, you are in no way inferior as an ATCO because it was non NATS. You would have demonstrated an ability to satisfy the requirements of an ATC licence at that unit following completion of an approved Unit Training Plan.

I am sure the simulator is wonderful, but it is (in my opinion) a complete waste of money if you want to use it as a tool to become a real ATCO. The colleges are there to give you that foundation, and to teach you the 'book' way to do it. They will relieve you of enough cash anyway. Simulators and instructors are included!

Around £15000 seems about right.

[Booville Monroe]

I am sure the simulator is wonderful, but it is (in my opinion) a complete waste of money if you want to use it as a tool to become a real ATCO. The colleges are there to give you that foundation, and to teach you the 'book' way to do it. They will relieve you of enough cash anyway. Simulators and instructors are included!

Trouble is, you can't learn practical ATC from a book, and instructors are (often) operating from different pages.

[RADARVECTORING]

fddffdgdfggg,

My course cost £16,000 and I learned far more from VV, that's what got me the validation. PM me if you want to discuss.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<How can you discard new technology so flippantly? Have you tried VV Approach? Times are changing, but unfortunately you are not keeping up with them. From this post and others you present yourself as a Yesterday Man desperately trying to retain past glories. You should not prejudice the future of young aspirants to ATC with uninformed comments like this.>>

Thanks for your rudeness. I have no "past glories" that I am aware of! There is nothing uninformed about my comments. They threw out the old simulators where I worked 20 years ago and went for a "PC style" approach. They now train controllers on proper simulators.

I am prepared to listen to any arguments and discuss them sensibly. However, one questions whether a busy ATC ops room can be adequately simulated on the kitchen table? Please explain where I am wrong?

[Barnaby the Bear]

I validated following instruction at the college, a good Unit Training Plan back at my unit, hard work on my part and good OJTI's.
I'm £1250 better off too as I didn't buy a home sim.

I am sure a home sim has its place, but I didnt need one and I don't personally know of anybody else that has.
i also know of people that didnt get through validation. I'm not sure a home sim would have helped them either.
My point being that it is not the norm to have to shell out an extra £1250 to aid becoming a valid APS ATCO. If you feel it will help, then thats for you alone to decide.

[alfaman]

Two key points to note before spending any money:
1) there is a difference between a CBT package & a simulator - the first may help in some ways, or may not - it may be a learning tool or just a bit of fun: the second will be fully supported, tested & regulated by the authority which will be issueing your licence, via the licence the training provider operates under. Those supplying the first often use the term without understanding the differences.
2) under UK regs, you will need to undertake an appropriately regulated course at an approved training provider: you may not "self study" & just pitch up to take the exams.

[CLAMES]

Barnaby,

You are indeed fortunate if you went through ATC training easily, the majority find it a very stressful experience - all because of the way it is done. The major problems are the need to learn multiple work methods to satisfy different instructors' requirements and, most importantly, the fact that there is a time limit to training. In that, ATC is unique in the world. Training for any other profession, people know that, if the worst happens and they fail an exam, they can take extra lessons and re-sit. ATC trainees have their entire career hanging on every exam, and that is incredibly stressful for most. As I said, you are blessed if you didn't experience it.

What VV Approach does is teach people a structured operating model, one the student will have perfected over probably hundreds of hours of practice before they enter formal training, either abinitio or cross-stream to Approach Radar. Once solid subconscious processing of traffic has been mastered it is very easy to adapt to variations to the model. Look at what Flight Simulator and its associated training packages have done for pilot training and relate it to ATC. Never before has that been done and that is why ATC training is so outdated.

alfaman,

Could I just ask that you broaden your thinking. There is no suggestion that people train by CBT then lob for an examination. That will never occur, just like no pilot gets a licence without many hours of actual flying. But the skills required to do that flying can in part be learned from Flight Sim and the like, saving the student countless expensive lessons and allowing him/her to develop sound subconscious skills before ever taking a formal lesson. Also, it gives him/her that vital and elusive quality confidence - they can see they have mastered the most difficult job in ATC - complex sequencing of high-speed aircraft - and nothing that formal training asks of them will seem difficult. No trainee pilot ever has any difficulty adapting pre-learned skills to what a live instructor tells them to do, they have learned an operating model upon which they build.

Thank you both for this discussion, you raise the very issues that need to be addressed if ATC training is ever to be modernised.

CLAMES

[Roffa]

Look at what Flight Simulator and its associated training packages have done for pilot training and relate it to ATC.

Ingrained many bad habits that real instructors have had to get their students to unlearn, at extra time and cost. That's what the flying instructors that I know have said about games such as MSFS anyway.

Aren't you getting some naughty free advertising out of this thread?

[Barnaby the Bear]

You are indeed fortunate if you went through ATC training easily

I don't remember saying it was easy? I remember saying I worked hard and following the intial approved course had followed a good approved UTP backed up with good experienced OJTI's.

I am saying to fddffgdfggg, be very, very careful about spending an extra £1250 on a simulator that you give the impression is a necessary tool to enable success. My experience and that off many others I know is that they did not need one.
Some people will never validate even if they pass the initial course. A home simulator won't change that.
Has this simulator been approved by the authority as a legitimate aid?

[elandel]

Aren't you getting some naughty free advertising out of this thread?

Roffa,

Well spotted! Not sure about any of this PC stuff - whats a whirlpool? - never heard of that in 25 years in ATC. This might go down well in Oz but I'm not so sure about Blighty.
I for one prefer Brens approach.