Service Air B747F

[vrefplus5]

Other than what's posted on their website www.serviceair.ca does anyone have some information about this company. They were advertising for B747F crew on www.climbto350.com a few days ago. Thanks.

[Panama Jack]

Only this:

http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/rulings-decisions/decisions/1998/A/29-A-1998_e.html

http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/rulings-decisions/decisions/2002/A/305-A-2002_e.html

[canadair]

I too am mildly curious about this company. They show a YVR base on their "none too elaborate" website.
Does anyone know if they are operating? or even have the aircraft.
They placed the ad on 350, but now it is gone, that was fast.
Out of interest, what would the current state of typed current 747 classic pilots be in Canada? Other than pilots working abroad and willing to return, I cannot imagine they have much of a local pool to draw on.

[Panama Jack]

"what would the current state of typed current 747 classic pilots be in Canada? Other than pilots working abroad and willing to return, I cannot imagine they have much of a local pool to draw on."

I hear you on that one!

[canadair]

well, regardless of the local availability or not, word is they filled the slots.
so, wonder how many they needed? and what seat.
For that matter does anyone know if they are operating? I have not seen, or heard of anyone who has seen an aircraft flying.
Has anyone in YVR seen one?
Is this a just a proposal?

[russellackland]

I just got the email from them saying they had filled all the slots. I had a friend that lives in the area check them out......they have an office and he saw a 727 with their emblem. I would like to get get more info on their operation. I saw the post climbto350. I sent them an email talking about my background..........and actually got a call from them requesting my resume (which they already had.) On the phone I was told that this was just the initial class and that there would be more......if i didn't get offered anything at this time. They plan to have the first 747-200F operating around the beginning of June. BTW my background......3500TT, 3000 mutli/turbine (600 jet), 1100 PIC turbine. Canadian Military (DHC-5), American Eagle (ATR42/72, EMJ145/135), Northwest - furloughed ( S/O B27/ B747-200F - ANC base) and currently Pinnacle Airlines-NWA Regional (CRJ200 or CL-65). I have both FAA/MOT ATP's and had the B747F on my canadian lic. I hope to get back to the West Coast and maybe they will call for a later class.:D Anybody else have any more info?

russell

[Snot Box]

Well, what can I say. Back in 1999, he wanted to start with some B1900C freighter/medevac operation to go head to head with Westex on their freight and Kingair medevac operations. Then, talks went to wanting to get Citation IIs/B1900C to compete against Pacific Costal and the other charter companies on charter operations.

Lots of talks and talks but never came true. Then again, talks started with airplanes as big as the B727-200Fs to compete against ACE, Purolator...etc...and then talks bloom to L-188s Electras. There was even a time to get a B747-300 for pax operation.

What's next? Within this whole time frame, a few good people left to other better adventures. Most of us could not be and were not paid for our services to try to help this company start out.

Last year, the company operated just 1 Beaver along the coast.
So I'm quite suprised to see they are getting B747F this time.
All the best to him and his company. There sure were lots of broken promises and hidden agendas, however.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see those B747s with our eyes to believe they are there this time!

[TellTheTruth]

A few guys I know have applied, myself included - although I was told all the slots are filled, while other guys were still being asked for interviews. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting to see their airplanes. Word has it CargoJet will be in the air with a heavy one of these days, but sounds like a DC10-30. Rumour is that service airs business plans have walked too, lots of empty promises and pockets.
From what I've managed to find out, they have never even owned an aircraft, and have never operated anything bigger than Beaver, and according to Transport, aren't even allowed to operate a Beaver anymore!
Sound like a pipe dream, no cash, big plans...watch your wallets boys!

[skyhawk1]

Well what can I say, but some of you should show more professionalizm. 1) So what if it's a pipe dream - the guy's that got in are getting a 747 endorsment. If it doesn't pan out - oh well, they aren't paying for the training. 2) If you guys knew anything about business you would know that under most cases it is cheaper to lease an airplane - just because they haven't owned an airplane doesn't mean anything! 3) You can't operate a Beaver under CARS 705! So if you amend your operating certificate and your AMO (maintenance cert) you have to have them SUSPENDED.......... Doesn't mean they did anything wrong. We should watch them cautiously as we would any other new company - but I wish them all the best. It's a gutsy move to try and start this kind of operation in these days - but I really don't think someone would spend the money to train crews and get the proper certificates if they weren't serious (and a 747 is some serious airplane). BTW - I know some of these things because a very good friend of mine has worked with these guys for a while now.

[canadair]

Skyhawk 1
jolly nice of you to come to their defense, but a few questions for you.
You say, "if you guys knew anything about business"
well have you worked in the contract envinronment?
have you been typed by a company or seen it done on a new fleet type?
Are you aware of just how much is involved in adding an aircraft type to an AOC? not to mention adding initial crew training to this.
Why do you think it is more economical for a new start up integrating a new type, to also incur the expense of training up crew, when there is obviously qualified typed current crew available to fill these slots.
Now you have implied that you do know business, by saying we do not, so:
How many start ups integrating a new widebody type have you observed over the years?
I have seen a few, as I have been flying contract widebody for some time, 747 freighters, and others.
I have seen these companies come and go, and the vast majority do go, if they even manage to start.
Are you aware of the current availablility of 747 Freighters these days? They are a pretty lean commodity, 100`s of which there are a few, are range limited for the routes they suggest, 200 Freighters are basically not available, as those that are have already been spoken for, which accounts for new conversions being done, ( at great cost)
300 freighters, not certified in Canada, or the US, so nope.
400 freighters, no way does cost to return work here with a startup, onea/c operation.
So I suggest that you perhaps read between the lines of some posting, as they are current, and typed, and have been turned down, this in itself suggests that this is at this point no more than a feeler excersise at best
Oh one last point, ya sure it`s a "gutsy move" to try these days, but as you may be well aware there has also been a ton of guys screwed by just such gutsy moves, and in the contract envinronment it is best for everyone concerned to go in eyes wide open, which is exactly why there is a healthy dose of scepticism exibited here.
Skyhawk 1, it is certainly does not show a lack of professionalism to do as much research as possible on any prospective company.

[TellTheTruth]

They never owned, or leased a BEaver. Operated 1, for a year. They're going nowhere, and you can't get a straight answer out of them. Glad I'm not wasting my money travelling there for an interview, and I will be extremely suprosed if they even manage to get 1 guy trained. It looks more and more like a pump and dump investment scam. woudln't waste my time based on their reputation.

[skidcanuck]

Beware this type of startup - same thing was "attemped" in Toronto a couple of years ago under the name "Titan Air". The man behind it turned out to be a con artist who was arrested and taken to court.

[Phil Lister]

For all you naysayers, why??? Give the operation a chance to try it out.. I think you should all be happy that someone is trying to get something going in this country at a time when the prospects are gloomy at best..

Last year, the company operated just 1 Beaver along the coast.
snotbox, nice name.... I think if you had any knowledge you would find that it was not last year that they started operating a beaver....

Are you aware of the current availablility of 747 Freighters these days? They are a pretty lean commodity, 100`s of which there are a few, are range limited for the routes they suggest, 200 Freighters are basically not available, as those that are have already been spoken for, which accounts for new conversions being done, ( at great cost)
300 freighters, not certified in Canada, or the US, so nope.
400 freighters, no way does cost to return work here with a startup, onea/c operation.
canadair, while some of what you say is true.. Can you tell me which types of 747 freighters do in fact have a Canadian type certificate?? BTW they are all available for the right price...

They never owned, or leased a BEaver. Operated 1, for a year.
to tell the truth...If they never owned or leased one, how did they ever operate it????

Glad I'm not wasting my money travelling there for an interview, and I will be extremely suprosed if they even manage to get 1 guy trained.
Just so you know, I hear that they do have 2 full crews trained now...

You people crack me up.... You crap all over anyone who has an idea and tries to put it into action... Then you want all the benefits once it is a done deal.. Why don't you let the company do their best to get going and create some employment which is badly needed in this country and wish them the best.. If you think it is too risky for you, don't apply.... If not, shut up and let them do their thing..

Phil

[m&v]

Last I heard was that they were to hold a 'course'last month ,but experienced delay re' the manuals approval by TC.
Servieair,Capt Bill Best 604 2337727.
Understood that there were no 200 guys qualified-all require coursrs.
:D

[Willie Everlearn]

:cool:

Phil,
relax. It's aviation.

BTW
Atlas Air have 200s ready to go. I see several (others) parked in Arizona. So, like you say "for a price".

Certification in Canada????
No sweat.
100s, 200s, 300s, or 400s. It certainly can be done.

I'm with you...people should stop slagging the possibilities and PRAY that one of these startups actually gets going.
It's long overdue.


:ok: Willie :cool:

[Phil Lister]

Willie,

No need for me to relax... I'm merely trying to get the fools to cut these people some slack.. I don't work for them so I really have nothing to gain by it but do believe that every new start up should get a chance to prove themselves..

For certification, well, a quick visit to the TC site will show you that the 200 series has been type certified... Now depending on which series of the 200 it is might make a difference... But then again, who knows with TC...

I agree with you though, that people should be encouraging new start-ups rather than slagging them.. Computers have a nasty habit of leaving a trail and I wouldn't want to be the guy/gal who didn't get a job cause they trashed a company on the internet...

Phil

[canadair]

I think you guys are missing the point. This was not so much "slagging off" a prospective employer / start up, as a statement of how they plan their operation. You say they are running a course as no typed classic guys out there, wrong, I know of at least 4 typed under 40 experienced current 200 people, canadian citizens, with the 74200 on their CDN lic who applied, none even got an answer! so how interested were they in typed pilots? not very.
Regards certified 74`s in Canada, you just have to look at what has been operated in the past, the 200 by CDN, AC, Ward Air, Nationair, and 400 by CDN and AC, so these are fine, no 300`s, but they have never been cert in North America.
So, while I think everyone with a vested interest, ie Canadians who may someday want to return to Canada, and are already typed on the aircraft they plan to operate, would be happy to see such a venture prosper, we are also realists, and this one just has all the indications of not working.
As mentioned before, the formula is wrong, 1 airplane means no redundancy, a 400 would just be too costly on a 1 aircraft operation, they are up against massive competition with the establised asian carriers already serving, and choosing to type crews over getting experienced typed pilots is not the way to go for a start up.
Classic, AFX, TBG, TJ, lots have tried, few survive.
So, if it does get off the ground, well good for them, it is a major uphill battle.
THis is all fact, if you choose to call it "slagging off" well fine, but I suspect that some of these opinions are from those not currently in the industry, and wishing they had a chance with someone, who see any new venture as a potential future employer, great, but if you have been with a few, lost the last few paychecks and watched them slide into obscurity, you may view these new start ups and their plans from a different side.

[Willie Everlearn]

canadair

I agree with your posting. However, the reality for pilots in Canada pre-empts the return for many of those who went overseas.
For several reasons.
Once you've gotten a taste of the overseas realities, your return to this country will be anything but the happy experience you'd expect it to be.
Right now there are so many pilots from failed companies walking the streets and standing in line for what 'table scrap' jobs are out there, it's difficult to reason and/or understand why anyone would even want to fly aeroplanes in this country in the first place.
We still have to wait for AC pilots to 'stop kicking their toys out of their crib' to see IF they're going to even survive. If that all comes crashing down there will be even more long faces standing in even longer lines for what little 'table scrap' jobs might be available. (IMHO)
Anyone looking to start up any kind of carrier right now may well be advised to stay away from 'the bitter ones' circulating throughout the country and go with whomever remains unspoilt.

Just a thought.


Willie :oh:

[canadair]

"stop kicking their toys out of their crib"

I like it :O
very descriptive statement on the current situation.

Willie:
points taken re the Canadian job market, but as it was all the guys I know who enquired about the possibility of these guys running a 74, work out of Canada, have for many years, and were just looking at it as a potential to move back, although none really thought it was a valid opportunity anyway.
I, like many have worked away from Canada for years, and while I completely agree that there is no chance of matching the dollars we make abroad, money is not everything. Canada is still my home, or at least where I am from, and in an ideal world where I would choose to work and live,... reality dictates otherwise.
So, while one would definately take a large pay cut to go to say Westjet, at least you are living in Canadian dollars as well, which is much cheaper than Europe, so all is semi relative.
I watch the CDN job market from over here, so no direct contact, but from what I can see, it is pretty screwed up these days, Westjet seems the only possible consideration, but as the AC situation plays out, all else looks to get worse.
I can say though, that there are many many Canadians who would gladly take that pay cut, and come back if they had something to go to.
So to get back to the original point, I would say that the "bitter ones" are not those of us currently flying abroad, ( which, agreed you did not imply) a group which includes, Ward Air, Canadian, NationAir, C3, lots are 74 current and keen to get back, so honestly if they say they could not get typed guys, they either don`t read their email, ignore their email, or just like spending money.

[Willie Everlearn]

canadair

Again, I quite agree with your remarks. :ok:

Having done the 'overseas' thing myself, I may have compromised some excellent opportunities by an earlier than planned return to the motherland, for various reasons. (Selfishness wasn't one of them.) So, from experience, be careful when you make decisions over there. Homesickness can cause serious judgemental errors when it comes to that.

Unfortunately for me, it's been one regret after another since my return, but that's just the way it's worked for me. :sad:
(I'll try not to bore you with the 'crap' I've gone through.)

I've grown indifferent to the Canadian Aviation scene (which is officially, a complete joke) and have started to look for something else that makes sense.
You may find that if you do likewise, the people you're likely to end up flying with back here, simply cannot relate to your overseas experience and will look at you like you're from Mars.

I completely understand the emotional aspect of the Canadian ex-pat wishing to return to Canada, one day. I understand completely!!

As you'd expect, there are many "issues" to deal with in Canadian Aviation and very quickly one has to shake ones head and ask how much more regressive can it get???
Hold onto your hat!

As for the 7-4 Typed CDN Ex-Pat, I know there are dozens out there and an opportunity like this for someone wishing to come home, is more than understandable. :O

Anyone jumping into the Canadian Airline scene would be well advised to 'go for it'. There aren't the capitalization bucks out there these days, but somebody's got to succeed at it at some point one of these days and as usual, there are those Canadians who feel we aren't good enough to do it as well as the Yanks, Brits, Aussies, you-name-it.

I say.....bah, humbug!!! ;)


P.S. Whatever you do, keep yourself current!!!

[skyhawk1]

Check out the latest 'AVIATOR' magazine

Quote:
" From Beavers to Boeings"

"This summer, Service air group inc. of Vancouver B.C., intends to lease three Boeing 747-200 cargo aircraft for worldwide freight operations. Targeting the freight market between North America and Asia, Service air group has lined up half a dozen confirmed destinations in the orient. The company also say's it eventually plans to extend service into South America. Crew hiring for Captains, First officers and flight engineers is currently underway as SAG seeks to train 10 crews to cover the first two aircraft, with the third aircraft on line as an operational backup by years end.

Owned by Jaeh Dillon, Service Air Group grew from his personal experience as a charter and commuter airline pilot over 23 years. In 1997 Dillon started a charter operation with two Beavers on floats, servicing the west coast. The company's fleet grew to include Fairchild Metro's, Beech king airs and beech 1900s. In August of 2002, all aircraft were either sold or returned to make way for the all jet cargo operation."

Doesn't sound like a startup to me. Sounds more like an expansion! Hope they go the distance.

[canadair]

well that certainly sounds like a more valid plan anyway!
I wish them luck, any good news re aviation in Canada these days is nice to see, I still wonder however, why train new crews, when there is an abundance of typed classic people, some still current, and most flying away from Canada ( Middle east, Europe).
I guess I could understand if they had actually interviewed any and found them unsuitable, or asking too much, etc, but I have to assume they have not, as none of the typed people who enquired have even received a call !
Anyway, Willie, I think your comments are probably stop on, the expectations will always eclipse the reality, and those of us who have been out of Canada for some time and miss it, may well be dissapointed if we return.
But it is easy to think otherwise when you are down route in the Middle east, Asia, etc!

[TellTheTruth]

Just ask them who their financing is coming from...I think they have all the money they need - Elvis has it, Ogopogo is guarding it, the Smurfs are counting it and Peter Pan will be delivering it to them from the land of make believe.

Guys are going to get screwed paying for their own training when this guy falls through...again. That's a shame. Don't be pessimistic, just get all of the facts, and when you get to the bottom of the pile, you'll realize it stinks.

They do not have a 727 with their logo on it, they operated a Beaver on behalf of an American guy for a year - he owned it, not ServiceAir.

It is a great concept, and a sexy plan - unfortunately they don't have the money to do it, or the contracts. Believe me, Jag won't be the one who's 'out of pocket' when this thing tanks.

[Willie Everlearn]

TellTheTruth

:mad: Ouch!!!

So, as someone "in-the-know", tell us how this so-called scheme works with Serviceair :confused:
I'd honestly like to know. Are they charging guys for their training like Jets-almost-Go-bust???

First of all, no one in Canada with or without the 'pockets' to operate an air cargo operation, has done much. Right?

ICC, ACS, Kewlona Flightcrap, Asses, Royal, Can't Air, who's-your-father??? ;)

But....eventually....odds are, someone is going to crack the Golden Egg. With or without YOUR approval. Right? Someone will find the 'key' that unlocks the secret to success. Right? Who's to say Serviceair will or won't be the one??? Who's to say KFC won't? First Air? Take yer pick, dude. :ok: AND, how the heck do you know where their financing is coming from??? B747-200 are cheap, cheap!! PLUS they are the perfect aeroplane for that kind of work. What are you thinking???

Have you checked out the market forecasts put out by both Boeing and Airbus??? Especially their Air Cargo market forecasts???
If not? Then you really haven't got much to say as far as who's going to do what in ADANAC until you read them.

Wait. Maybe you do have much to say, and we're listening, but I think you may be missing some additional information in your rush to judgement on the success of this OR any other start-up. :ooh:

Ambitious projects are just that. What WAS won't necessarily be the rule but rather the exception. Forgive me if I'm wrong but your post sounds an awful lot like 'sour grapes'. But you know what? Given the present state of the so-called 'industry' in the Great White North...you're entitled to it.

I'd suggest you let those who want to play the game....play the game. Wherever they get their bucks. Do we really care as drivers? No, not really. As long as we get a free type and some time on type to be marketable, who gives a f..k???

Pull your neck in. One of these outfits is long overdue for some success. Let's hope it's these guys. EH? :ok:

Be as blunt as you like my friend, but it looks to me from what I read and what I hear, they are a reality and will actually operate.

...and that's a good thing, whether we agree or disagree.

Willie

[skyhawk1]

Hey Tellthetruth,
You sound like someone who got turned down - Little sore are we? Nobody said anything about a 727, And what do you know? Their crews are not paying for their training, It's covered by the company. They have to sign a contract saying that if they leave within two years they have to pay back whatever is left over. Don't know about you but that seems on par with most other companies out there, and if they have the right plan than noone has to worry about being out of work in 6 months as Willie is correct. The air cargo market is huge and growing every day!

Lets base things on facts shall we! If you don't have any then don't slam people for doing a good thing!

[canadair]

Willie:
I too would like to see it go, but this is a HUGE wait n see.
But regards 200F aircraft available, I am not so sure, the last ones that came up, were the ex Southern air GE powered 200`s, they got snapped up right away, even with the " low cargo capacity" Malaysian may be getting rid of the 200`s for 400`s, but that is not immediate, the Atlas ones in the desert are not available, as Atlas is on yet another rebound, the pratt powered 300`s are no longer available, the Lufthansa nose loaders, no longer on offer, and while you are apsolutely correct, 200`s are relatively cheap, the conversion is not, both in time and money.
The only ones that may be available are the ex AFX 200`s, but they may be starting again, under another name, or addition, and MK is also looking for more, so while the plan sounds semi OK, I guess time will tell.
as you say it`s been tried, no one has made it work on that end, it is a big step from operating a Beaver! I wonder just how much they know about the market / aircraft / crewing/ operation, and Transport would be all over this one from day one, just getting the manuals approved is a big job.
fun to watch though, if it turns a wheel.

[Phil Lister]

Right now there are a number of 200F's available...

Kalitta is being liquidated as I understand and they are trying to get rid of theirs.. Atlas, I believe has surplus, and there are others...

Airplanes are not hard to find right now and the "PRICE IS RIGHT!!"

For to tell the truth... Come on, at least live up to your name... You obviously know nothing about the operation (727) and are just trying to slag this operation.. Maybe a little jealousy??? Let's be happy for someone who is trying to make things better in this country.. I've now met a couple guys who are there to start up the operation and they all seem happy.. One even quit a perfectly good job (flying for another airline)for this one so it must have some potential...

I hope it works out for everyone who's supported them, and those that have tried to slag the operation stay unemployed..

Phil

[Willie Everlearn]

Gents

...another comment on this kind of operation...if I may:cool:

1) No shortage of pilots in CANADA.
2) No shortage of pilots with enough experience to fly the B747.
3) No difficulty getting an AOC these days.
4) No difficulty getting the B747 on your present AOC.
5) Investment Capital may be scarce, but 'cheap' where available for the right Business Plan. Not to mention interest rates.
6) Numerous pilots out here capable of putting SOPs, other documents, etc., together to recruit, train for and operate this equipment.
7) The Air Cargo industry in CANADA can use the heavy lift capacity (e.g., Cathay Pacific YYZ/YVR)
8) Many South American, Asian, and Southeast Asian carriers are in very deep do-do right now. What better time to make available the uplift capability to these outfits?
9) The reality IS...B747-200Fs are available. Not huge numbers of them, but certainly 3 or 4.
10) Cargolux, Atlas, Polar, Gemini and others are starting to rise out of the doldrums (according to Air Transport World) and the lead indicator of economic recovery is the airlines. The lead economic indicator for the airline industry is Air Freight.

Let's wait and see. :ok:

[fesmokie]

Kalitta Air's 200's Liquidated ??? Where are You from??? I Know Kalitta and have NO Idea what your talking about or where you get your info from but, Connie is NOT getting rid of the 200's. As far as working back in Canada , I would love the opportunity to be based on the West Coast on the 74 but I think thats just a big dream. I sure hope that this Service Air thing goes but ,I'm very pessimistic about it at this time.

[skyhawk1]

Kallita is not being 'liquidated', but I do know that at least some of their machines (747's) - or ones that were operated by them have been returned to leaser or sold. Maybe a 'trimming down' but I think IMO they are reorganizing to cut some costs and make a comeback.

[fesmokie]

Well, Thats news to me cause they just had a class of 38 and two more classes are in the works before the years out. Thats because Connie keeps buying more 74's. Nasty Rumor goin' round folks.;)

[TellTheTruth]

OK, OK...

I see from reading people's responses that the dream is alive...that's great, and to 'tell the truth' I would love to see SAG actually pull a rabbit out of the hat. Unfortunately, I know too much and no longer share your illusions of grandeur.

I'll take the wait and see approach from here on in, and I'll refrain from saying 'I told you so'. Time for a long vacation...

And Bill...er, I mean Skyhawk1, I recommend doing your homework carefully, dig deep, and have fun while it lasts.

[fesmokie]

Latest Rumor, Atlas Air may be filing Bankruptcy.

[TellTheTruth]

A quote supplied by Skyhawk1:

"Owned by Jaeh Dillon, Service Air Group grew from his personal experience as a charter and commuter airline pilot over 23 years. In 1997 Dillon started a charter operation with two Beavers on floats, servicing the west coast. The company's fleet grew to include Fairchild Metro's, Beech king airs and beech 1900s. In August of 2002, all aircraft were either sold or returned to make way for the all jet cargo operation."

From what I hear, Dillon flew a 727 for Royal for about a week if at all, then was laid off, and started a cab / limo service. ServiceAir got a 703 so a couple U.S. guys could operate their airplanes in Canada to their cabins and back and write it off back home. They never had anything but a Beaver, no metro, no 1900's, no 200's, nada. In August, the U.S. guys decided not to renew, and Service Air was dead in the water, at which point he was riding the coat-tails of a couple other people looking for an OC to upgrade to a 705. Again - no joy.

Word is they don't want typed guys because they're using training bonds as operating capital. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisky......I also heard that the 1 soft contract they had walked.

No sour grapes here - just don't want to see any more of us get pooched in this industry, I'm happy in the Middle East for now. It's a small small world...

But, we're all entitled to our opinions aren't we? I personally woudn't drive a cab for Service Air...oh wait, that went out of business already.

All I'm saying to those involved - dig deep, really deep, and ask a lot of questions - you may find that there are no real answers! :8

[skyhawk1]

Tellthetruth,
Your post doesn't even deserve a response, but here it is. You are a complete moron. Even my buddy - who has worked for them for a while now and has a good idea of who you are says you have no clue about what your talking about. You get half facts and twist them into some sort of fabricated fantisy. All I can say is I can't wait for the day that I'm in the right seat laughing at you crying by the fence!

As for the people that are truly interested, I will let you all Know the "latest rumors" as my friend lets me know.

Fesmokie - I don't know exactly what is going on with connie - but my friend said that 2 74's that they were interested in were Kallita machines. 707ck and 708ck. And these machines were listed as sold not long ago. Maybe they were returned to the leaser and sold again? If it's true that Connie is adding to the fleet, This is a good upswing for the industry. Hope Kallita makes it!:D

[PaperTiger]

I think you're confusing Kalitta and Kitty Hawk (easily done ;) ). The Kitty Hawk liquidator holds title to 3 -200Fs, N707/8/10CK.

Speednews listings offer 7 for sale (including 2 of the above) and 4 lease-only.

[TellTheTruth]

I guess we're all entitled to our opinions, as long as they're the same as Bill's...I mean Skyhawk's.

I truly, genuinely hope that you end up in the right seat of a ServiceAir machine, I just have my doubts that it will be in the right seat of an aircraft, more likely the right seat of a cab.

Shouldn't Service Air be taking delivery of these aircraft pretty soon if they plan to be operating in July? I mean seeing as it's July 07...

If you think I only have half facts - then I invite you to enlighten us with the full facts, not the fantasies or rumours.

In the meantime, I'll be at FL350 in my Airbus. Good luck!

[Phil Lister]

To tell the truth,

Well, we can't all be flight attendants (like you) so I guess the rest of us will just have to look up to you with awe...

Your arrogance is totally unwanted here... If you don't like what you see don't look.. If not put a valid point on the board.. Your heresay and conjecture doesn't hold a lot of water with the rest of us.. If you can prove something, well, do it..... Other than that just be happy for the people who are doing there thing where they want to (Canada), and enjoy the desert...

Phil

[TellTheTruth]

OK, point taken Phil, and fair enough - the lemmings are not to be deterred. Perhaps I'm wrong about ServiceAir - Perhaps I'll win the PowerBall this weekend...the chances of both are in the same realm as far as I'm concerned.

I'll leave everyone to their own opinions, but if you have taken nothing else from my posts, take this - walk in with your eyes wide open, and don't quit your day job and move to YVR until there's a cheque in the bank for you.

I would just hate to see a bunch of guys who are understandably excited about the prospect get screwed. We've all seen it too many times over the past few years.

I'm not prepared to 'lay it all on the table' at this point, but I will graciously accept any 'you were right' emails when the chips fall.

Now, please fasten your seat belt and put your tray tables in the upright position - it's going to be a bumpy ride.

[TellTheTruth]

How's the right seat feel Bill? I assume as it's almost August that you've already hit V1...

Or are there more 'little problems'?

[Phil Lister]

To Tell The Truth..

You just don't give up do you?? For someone who claims to really know the situation, I feel that you are like so many other clowns out there who heard a story from a friend of the brother-in-law of someone who claims to know the real truth..

What about Service Air bothers you so much? Is it that they just might make a go of it and you are being left behind?? :{

Or is it that you paid for your training somewhere and got screwed so now you think every start-up has to be a crook?? :rolleyes:

What part of these guys are not paying for their own training confuses you?? I'm sure most people who are getting offered a job are coming in with their eyes wide open.. From what I can understand from a few of them that have been accepted is that there is an awful lot of experience coming to that company so I'd think guys or gals with that kind of experience would know what to look out for..

Maybe before you run off at the mouth once again you should check you facts.. Then maybe check the attitude at the door.. :ok: When you have something constructive to add to the conversation please feel free to add to it, until then we are all just getting sick of the endless drivel :yuk: that continues to come from you..

Phil

[extreme P]

CTA Home : Rulings : Orders : 2002

Order No. 2002-A-327
August 14, 2002
IN THE MATTER OF the operation of a domestic service and a non-scheduled international service by Service Air Group Inc. carrying on business as Service Air - Licence Nos. 980010 and 980011.
File Nos. M4210/S411-1
M4210/S411-2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Under Licence No. 980010, Service Air Group Inc. carrying on business as Service Air (hereinafter the Licensee) is authorized to operate a domestic service, small aircraft.

Under Licence No. 980011, the Licensee is authorized to operate a non-scheduled international service, small aircraft, to transport traffic on a charter basis between Canada and any other country.

By Order No. 2002-A-246 dated July 5, 2002, Licence Nos. 980010 and 980011 were suspended pursuant to subsection 63(1) and paragraph 75(1)(a) of the Canada Transportation Act, S.C., 1996, c. 10 (hereinafter the CTA), for failure by the Licensee to hold a valid Canadian aviation document. The Licensee was provided with a period of thirty (30) days from the date of the Order to show cause why Licence Nos. 980010 and 980011 should not be cancelled pursuant to subsection 63(1) and paragraph 75(1)(a) of the CTA.

In response to the Order, the Licensee has requested a suspension of its licences.

Pursuant to paragraphs 63(2)(b) and 75(2)(b) of the CTA, the Canadian Transportation Agency (hereinafter the Agency) may suspend or cancel a domestic licence and a non-scheduled international licence in accordance with a request from the Licensee for the suspension or cancellation.

The Agency has considered the request and, pursuant to paragraphs 63(2)(b) and 75(2)(b) of the CTA, hereby suspends Licence Nos. 980010 and 980011.

To reinstate the suspended licences, the Licensee is provided with a period of one year from the date of this Order to file an application to that effect. If, at that time, upon consideration of the application, the Agency determines that the Licensee meets the requirements of subparagraphs 61(a)(i) to (iii) and 73(1)(a)(i) to (iii) of the CTA, which provide that the Licensee must be Canadian, must hold a Canadian aviation document and must have prescribed liability insurance coverage, the licences shall be reinstated.

Alternatively, one year from the date of this Order, if the application for reinstatement is not filed or the Licensee does not meet any of the requirements of subparagraphs 61(a)(i), (ii) or (iii) and 73(1)(a)(i), (ii) or (iii) of the CTA, the Licensee is provided with an additional thirty (30) days to show cause why Licence Nos. 980010 and 980011 should not be cancelled pursuant to subsection 63(1) and paragraph 75(1)(a) of the CTA.

This Order shall be affixed to Licence Nos. 980010 and 980011 and the suspension of the licences shall remain in effect until further order of the Agency.

Nothing mentioned about the suspension being lifted. Best of luck to all parties involved however very strong rumours say this one is going nowhere.

[TellTheTruth]

Phil,

Perhaps it's you that is ignorant of the facts, or not in a position to know any better - which would be understandable and explain your attitude. Do you realise there are 7 other groups attempting a similar start-up across Canada? Do you know that 5 of the other groups involve management teams that have owned and operated large carriers in the past? 2 of the groups have their financing and contracts in place? Ask yourself one simple question - where are Service Air's aircraft? Where are their contracts? It's nice that you have bet your money on the little guy, but I assure you it's the 'deaf dumb and blind' leading the blissfully ignorant. Enjoy...

Did you hear that the 'naked girl hunting with paintball guns' in Las Vegas was also a hoax - I'm sure you'll be able to get a refund.

COLOR=red]As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.[/COLOR]

[Phil Lister]

Well T4

I guess a person like yourself couldn't be wrong by the sounds of things. Yes, I know people in the operation (no I'm not in it) and from what I see (I've seen a lot of companies come and go over the last almost 30 years in this business) they have as good a shot at making it as anyone. As I say, I'm seeing it from very close knowing a couple of the guys who are involved in it so I think I get a pretty good picture of what's going on.

I'd sure like to know what you base your opinions on. It sure isn't the truth. You really sound like you have a hate on for them for some reason.

I do wish them all the best and hope they do well. I, unlike you, am all for a new start up operator who will provide employment for the many unemployed people in our business. I only wish there were more who would think outside the box and take a chance.. :ok:

Phil

[TellTheTruth]

OK Phil, you're right.

If you read some of my posts - I'm all for new carriers in Canada - bring 'em on! I'm just not for scam artists and liars.

Assuming I am the Anti-Christ of Canadian aviation, and considering your extensive inside knowledge of Service Air, give me one answer Phil: WHERE ARE THE AIRCRAFT?

Do your thing, believe what you will, but I'm a little sad to see even you get scammed by this guy.

[canadair]

the aircraft are the same place they were, as they never left, Kalitta.
although a certain YVR doctor was kind enough to contribute towards their C checks.
not that they would have been suitable anyway, had anyone bothered to check the particular load abilities.
nice one!

[STC]

Here are the 747 models that have a Canadian Type Certificate:

747-1D1 747-121 747-123 747-128
747-129 747-133 747-211B 747-212B
747-217B 747-230B 747-233B 747-238B
747-257B 747-4F6 747-433 747-475

If anyone cares.....

[TellTheTruth]

So I guess an August start up is out of the question...strange, so was April, February, May, June, July...I think we get the idea.

Has anyone heard anything about Canada Cargo Corp.? Based in YYC - apparently Dillon's old partner, and the black sheep of the Advance Air Charter deal, Brian Roseburgh...they are 2 peas in a pod, and they'll stay in the garden together I'm sure. Peas just weren't meant to fly 747's.

Sorry to hear about the Doc who got fleeced - Maybe Connie will buy him lunch or something.

[Snot Box]

Been watching this thread ever since it got started. I'm not suprised any bit suprised to hear the operation is still put on hold. The couple of years spent "working" for him, can never seem to get any straight answer out od JD. I wonder how many people he has screwed over to get where he is today. A very sad thing to see as many people's lives have been affected by JD. And some of the people that used to be with him are truly nice and genuine people.

Hopefully JD would give it a rest soon.

[skyhawk1]

You guys don't think that there could be a liggit reason that things are delayed? O.K maybe the guy is a scam artist and fooled some people (me included), but maybe this is liggit. You guys keep going on about the aircraft - What would you do? Buy the a/c, and have them sit around for 6 months making payments on them while waiting for the government red tape to clear?????????
There are a million reasons why they could be delayed. Do you have any idea how many things are required? Ground handling contracts, A/C contracts, fuel contracts. You have an agreement and then at the last minute something changes and you have to start over again. Not to mention what hoops Transport Canada makes you go through for a startup - nevermind an international carrier.
"Not suprized to see them delayed". Neither am I!

[TellTheTruth]

He's been wrapped in 'red tape' for the past 2 years...and although it is something that everyone has to deal with, it still doesn't account for the lack of financing, lack of contracts, lies etc. that seem to flow freely from JD.

I've even heard that someone else developed and wrote his www.serviceair.ca website, business plans, presentations and introduced him to the only possible contracts he had, and he screwed them all up - just look at the new www.serviceair.net website!! Anyone have any crackers for that cheese?

I thought you were the 'guy in the know', the solid SAG supporter Skyhawk? I'd be interested to hear of your experiences with him.

[skyhawk1]

Well, Like I said before. A good friend of mine works there, and I believe what he tells me, but I'm not going to ask him for state secrets and I wouldn't expect him to tell either. I said I would pass on stuff as I hear it and I will. But based on what he has told me, and what I've seen, It seems like it is a bunch of guys - making some mistakes along the way (but learning) - and trying to put together a decent company. Now maybe it's a "boys club" and those that don't fit get tossed, I don't know, but the people I've met have seemed pretty nice to me.

I do know some guys in the past walked in there thinking they are the best thing that could happen to them (SAG), then they want all kinds of stuff, and then they want written garentees. Well those people didn't last long.

Tellthetruth - you keep saying you know so much about these guys. Why don't you fill me in, and tell us what you know except saying these guys are liers and then ASKING questions. I mean if you know he has no financing tell us how you know. If you know he can't possibly get airplanes, tell us how you know. Stop asking "Where are they" and assuming he can't get anything. Most of the guys there - if they are getting screwed, are being screwed out of there time and not much else. Remember we are trying to deal with facts here.

Yea, I'm a supporter, and as you all say - we need that in this country. I'm going to give them the benifit of the doubt - due to my friend, but I'm still open to possibilities and by doing so maybe I could get a job with them in the future. I think that (judging by the industry) these guys could be huge!

If you have facts to the contraray then maybe it might change my mind, but it almost seems like you have a significant grudge - like you had some sort of falling out with them, and no one can say anything remotely positive about them before you lash out. So come on - give us more details about what you know, and what happened between you and them. I would like to know why I shouldn't hold any intrest in them.

[TellTheTruth]

Hold as much interest as you would like Skyhawk...best of luck.

[canadair]

I think that (judging by the industry) these guys could be huge!


skyhawk, you really need a reality check!
exactly what part of operating 1 beaver some time ago, and completely failing to get this paper exercise off the ground makes you think "these guys could be huge"?????????
perhaps you should take the time to actually learn about the "industry" before you make ridiculous statements.
beating a dead horse comes to mind.

[skyhawk1]

I simply meant that the air cargo indutry is huge and growing, and that the potential for any air carrier is there. Wether it's these guys or not remains to be seen!

As for knowing the industry, I do know about it and i've seen what these guys are doing. They certainly have people that have worked out there on these aircraft a lot longer than you or I, so with the experiance these guys have I think that it's entirely possible. If you think that they only have the same guys there (pilots, ops people, etc) that operated the 3 beavers that they had before than maybe you need a reality check!

[canadair]

" They certainly have people that have worked out there on these aircraft a lot longer than you or I"

oh have they?

well, while I have no desire to get into a pissing contest with you Skyhawk, I do take offense to that statement, and I resent you being so presumptious,
I am currently flying a 747-200 freighter, as Captain, and have flown 747`s for many years, both freight and pax, as well as other widebodies, again in both capacities, I have worked in the industry for a long time, in Canada, Europe, and the Far East, and between friends and collegues, know at least somebody in pretty much every freight operation, large and small, as well I have seen first hand why some of the now defunct ones failed. I have also seen more than a couple try, and never get beyond a business plan, and in this case a minimal website. So please do not group yourself and me together in such a sweeping statement!
I note from your previous posts that you have become a singular cheerleader, spouting ra ra text, with no substance behind it, yet when anyone injects reality into this, ie there are NO aircraft, you continue with the same mantra, oblivious to this rather glaring fact! The points you have made, suggest a complete lack of knowledge about just what is required to make such an operation work.
Perhaps you feel that with your constant defense, you will be given a RHS reward if they ever do turn a wheel, I cannot imagine why you would continue to blindly support this endevour, if you have no personal aspirations.
I would suggest that rather than responding to each note with your bubbly but vague replies, you actually try to discuss facts, should you have any, and while your at it, please enlighten us on just what qualifies you to comment on the industry as a whole.

[TellTheTruth]

Please correct me if I'm wrong - but I think most educated people in this industry would agree. Normally, people make an announcement that they will be launching an airline, and Voila!, an airline appears.

Michel LeBlanc, Clive Beddoe, Ed Peagram, David Ho, Arie Tull, Dan Goliger, John Mackenzie, A.J. Virmani, Robert Obadia...the list goes on...have all done it in the past. They announce, and Voila!...aircraft, crew, maintenance, operations, the smell of burning fuel...you get the picture.

In the meantime, thousands of people tell all kinds of stories about launching the latest and greatest airline...but in my experience, if you heard about it 6 months ago through the grapevine, and it's still on the vine....well it has a better chance of turning into vinegar than into a fine Merlot - or even into a cheap bottle of Baby Duck for that matter.

People with the cash and brains to launch airlines don't jump from 1 passenger Beaver to 3 747 freighters. They don't announce a start date without having financing in the bank, contracts on the table, and an experienced international management team - experienced in the international air cargo industry that is, not just in the cockpit of a local piston popper with some tourists in the back. They don't expect everyone else to provide them with free advice, work, knowledge etc. etc. etc. and not have a piece of the action. They don't talk about it for very long...they're too busy doing it. There's a lot of talk here......

Yes, I'm all for the little guy, go go small business and dreamers...but be realistic. There are thousands of bull**** artists for every airline executive....now based on the probabilities - where do you think JD fits?

Can't wait for the Cheerleader's response.

[IMC99]

I have been keeping up with this thread for a few months now and only 2 minutes ago did I bother to access ServiceAir's website.

My personal fav is the fact that SERVICE is spelled SEVICE along the top menu bar - Very professional. This whole thing stinks, my money is on Cargojet for overseas expansion anyways.

[Phil Lister]

Well I can see that in my absence the last couple weeks that the experts have all voiced their opinions.. Nice to see that a highly educated well placed bunch like yourselves have decided that you are now the experts in commercial aviation.

All you need now is the red noses and the big floppy shoes.. Then the truth would be out..

For all of you "EXPERTS" I'd just like to see how many years management experience you have.. Just because you drive the airplane does not mean you are suddenly an expert in the industry.. It just means that you can program your FMS.. If you have one..

Personally, I'll still put my money on JD... Having talked to some of the people he has involved in the operation, and having a fair bit of management experience myself, I think once all the hoops are jumped through, he's got a great chance of making it..

Phil

[TellTheTruth]

You must have LOTS of disposable cash Phil - Perhaps you should start an airline too!!

I can't seem to find my red nose and floppy shoes - too hot over here for them anyway. But I hear there's a few people wearing them around the YVR Jet Center...

Too much talk about a seed that will never sprout. I'm off to more pressing issues...beer or highball?

[Jumba]

Well this page certainly lives up to it's name about being a rumors page. However, it dosen't live up to being profesional, with coments that are being made by folks like TELLTHETRUTH.
The negative ones that are doing all the complaining , are just jealous that others may have been chosen ,and they have recieved a "FOND" letter. If people are going to slam induvidauls withinSAG, then maybe you should base what your saying on FACTS, not romors and hear say. Maybe if TELLTHETRUTH feels so confident in what he or she is saying, then maybe step out from behind the handle, and tell us who you really are. Or are you just afraid that if SAG gets going soon, and your name is found out, that all hopes of employment with them will be done? Lets face it. You and every other pilot in Canada, would love to be sitting in a seat of a 47 based out of YVR.
I hope that the gear are in the wells soon!
I'm sure the ones that are hired will let us know how good it really is!:ok:

[TellTheTruth]

Very Insightful Jumba.

I'll tell you what - you hold your breath until an aircraft shows up, and if Service Air ever flies a 747, I'll eat my hat, and will gladly stand in front of their office wearing a clown suit.

In the meantime, I think most people know who the clown is, and those who don't will find out soon enough, or maybe the lies are thick enough to keep this BS dream alive for another year or so!

What's the new 'start date', or has it been pushed ahead 6 months for the 11th time?

As for my identity, that's none of your business. You are not forced to agree with me, and I am under no obligation to lay my cards on the table - don't confuse that with a desire to work for SAG. Sure, a 747 seat ex YVR would be great, but so would the left seat in the next Shuttle mission, and there is a greater chance of the latter becoming reality.

Now, be sure to plug your nose when you hold your breath...and good luck!!

[TellTheTruth]

In Big Red Letters... :

"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions."

Apparently, SAG has 'roped' in more 'dopes'!

How long will the game go on? When will it end? Who will be voted off the Island...stay tuned for more entertainment!!

[Phil Lister]

Well TTT, I see you've made some more friends..

Nice to know that you have the personality that attracts people.

I guess if you really had a job in this business you wouldn't be so negative. Maybe you would be able to understand that sometimes people do things right without your input.

When I read these forums and see the morons (like you and STC)that use it as an outlet for their negativity, all I see is people who are lacking the skills to be regular members of society.

If you have any real evidence that this operation is not going to go, then please bring it to the table. I would love to see your evidence.

If not, maybe you should learn that all you are doing is making people come to the conclusion that it is you that is wrong, not Service Air and the people trying to create employment.

If you still have to whine, and hack, :yuk: and puke like a little girl, then you should just get a life.. If not let us know who you are and why you know these things cause, I, for one am saying that you are full of crap little boy...

Phil

[TellTheTruth]

I have only ever wanted people to ask questions, lots of them, and dig deep to avoid being screwed...you guys get pretty personal! Talk about anti-social behaviour.

For evidence, one need only rotate gently into YVR on 26L and have a look out the left window to see that a Shorts-360 is the largest aircraft parked on the ramp at the Jet Center...

If you guys have all of the answers, pray-tell when will the 3 747 freighters be delivered?

[Phil Lister]

So TTT I guess the Dash 7's and 8's along with the Convairs and F-27's are smaller than the Shorts... I would guess that means you have never had the oppourtunity to look out the left window and see such things..

I guess that shows what you really know about what's happening at YVR.. Nice to hear an expert like yourself beak off..

Phil

Hey snotbox..

Are you the same guy with the padded logbook problem??

Phil

[TellTheTruth]

Phil, don't be an idiot...you sound like a Star Trek nerd grasping at technicalities and straws.

F-27's, Dash 7's or 8's, Convair 580's...add up all the numbers and you still don't get to 3 x 747!

There are so many sheep running blindly around YVR, I'm afraid to land!

[TellTheTruth]

Well there's bad news for the SAG flag wavers...

Here's the CTA's take on them:

http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/rulings-decisions/orders/2003/A/2003-A-489_e.html

Probably 'not a problem' right JD??

[skyhawk1]

Maybe you should READ the ruling before you run around slagging people. You probably go out of your way to find negative things about this company so you can post them. I know, I should read the big red sentance at the bottom of the page.

Since when is a 747 a small airplane?

[TellTheTruth]

How big is Service Air's 747? Oh right...they don't have one - or an AOC!

[Phil Lister]

Star trek nerd... :mad: Now that's hitting below the belt.

TTT I was merely commenting on your lack of knowledge regarding the aircraft at YVR. You were the one saying that there was nothing bigger than a Shorts 360, so before you get all high and mighty, as usual, you should think before you open your cake hole.. You like to trash people for any reason you can,however, you don't seem to do your own homework.

No, there is not a 747 sitting on the ramp today. Do you have any idea of the enormity of beaurocratic problems that can be involved in a startup like this.. Maybe JD was a little optimistic in his proposed start dates, but he is still going forward with his plans. I'm quite confident you will see a 74 on the ramp in their colours one day soon.

When people like yourself, snotbox, and STC get off your soapboxes, and realise that you are only making fools of yourselves, maybe then you will be able to learn some real facts about this industry.

Phil

[fesmokie]

CK 707 and CK710 are being operated by Kalitta. I flew 710 all last month. There are more classes in the works and we are all working as much overtime as we wish. My commute from the Kootenays is a bit of a bear but I,m happy to be back with Connie as I too applied with Service Air but got no replies back from them. Too bad, I would have liked to work out of YVR. Oh well, at least I have a job. :ok:

[TellTheTruth]

Blah blah blah...blah blah blah, blah! blah blah - blah...blah? Blah blah blah, blah blah, blah blah!!!

That's all I've heard from guys like you for well over a year!!!

Honestly, genuinely, and sincerely, I would rather hear the roar of Pratt's or Royce's on the wings of a 747 departing YVR. Perhaps you can understand my, and other's frustration considering the track record of this company, and the disposable workforce JD has 'employed' over the past few years.

Perhaps some posts appear abrasive over this medium, but seriously - there comes a point where all you can do is shake your head and laugh at the circus full of attempted start-ups, empty promises and grandiose dreams.

Shake shake shake...

[TellTheTruth]

I'm a little disappointed, no witty replies from the 'reality' protesters...

[Phil Lister]

And what reply would you like??

You admitted that you would like to see them make a go of it. I'm glad that you finally agree. Maybe instead of shooting them down you should encourage them to keep trying, it's good for everyone. At least they are trying.

I'm sure, that given the oppourtunity, you would not reject a seat in a 74 out of YVR. So, with that given, then why do you want to sewer yourself with all the trash talk.

Maybe it's taking a while, but we all know the hoops that need to be jumped through to make an operation like this work. Some days it seems like it might go tommorrow, the next you have another 6 months dealing with the beaurocrats to deal with.

Give these guys a chance. Like I said, at least they are trying. If they do make it, it's great for everyone. If they don't, well, who's losing other than them..

Phil

[TellTheTruth]

Phil, you should read back through my posts. I have always said that a Canadian start-up would be great, and I'm all for it. However, JD is a waste of skin, and I would hate to see anyone get screwed by him. That's the problem - he won't be the only one to lose.

Either way, good luck. Keep the rubber side down.

[Phil Lister]

Well ttt, you'll have to enlighten me on how he can screw anyone..

[TellTheTruth]

Phil et al...

I just realised...this forum is a complete waste of my time! We might as well be arguing the second coming - only Jesus knows when.

Have fun and good luck...

[Phil Lister]

Well, good on ya ttt for finally giving up on your silly tirade against a company that at least is trying..

If they make it or not it not for us to decide.. However when I see a person at least trying, I feel hope for our crappy industry in this country..

I really hope more will try..

Phil

[Phil Lister]

What, nobody else with a silly tirade against a company who is trying??? Come on you folks.. somebody else should start up where ttt gave up...

TTT wouldn't even let us know who he/she was to prove that they had any proof in what they were saying... They stirred up a lot of sh*t and left it at that... No proof of what they were spouting.. Kinda sad isn't it....

Anyhow good luck to JD and the rest of the people at Service Air.. I am looking forward to seeing and airplane with your logo on it soon..

Phil

[Up_And_Down]

Phil - TTT did get people to ask some tough questions which needed answers - and regardless of whether he told you who / where / how...the fact remains that SAG has advertised an operation that has yet to materialize for the past 2 years! Good on them for trying - but the only proven 'fact' out there right now is that there are no airplanes with the SAG logo on them. That's pretty hard evidence to argue against for the time being isn't it?

Personally, I'll believe it when I see it.

[Up_And_Down]

What, no witty retort Phil? After reading through some of the previous posts, you seem to be the key SAG cheerleader.

I hope that this operation comes to fruition - so give me some evidence that they are making progress.

[Up_And_Down]

Well then...I guess there is none!

[Phil Lister]

Sorry to let you down, I just haven't bothered checking on this forum for a while. I've found that it is usually more frustrating than it is worth.

As for SAG, from what I have heard, they are still struggling through the enless red tape involved in a start up operation. Even though it has taken longer than anyone expected, the people I know there are still quite positive that it will happen. I would hope that we would all be patient and hopefull that they do get going as it will provide much needed jobs in our industry when we all really need it..

Phil

[PIA747]

I wonder why the Red tape for SAG is longer than for others.

[FestusSlowPok]

PIA747, what others are you referring to?

[PIA747]

Airlines that very recently entered into the Canadian Aviation scene, such as HMY.

[skyhawk1]

Maybe because Dr. Hoe has untold millions of dollars to throw around. It took them a wack of cash to get started. Even with that they needed about two years or more. From what I know SA doesn't have untold millions at their disposal. Even if they did they still have to get through Transport Canada, which again from what I hear they are fairly close.

But then again.....????

[FestusSlowPok]

Skyhawk,
Since you claim to know that SA does not have "untold millions" at their disposal you must have some good inside knowledge about this startup. I mean, the finances of a company should be and usually are quite secretive. I'd be curious to know more.......or are you just trying to make it look like you know more.

[skyhawk1]

You are right. Companies finances are super secret. I simply ment that they probably don't have 800 million dollars lying around, spending it like it's going out of style. What do they have? 100 million? 200 million? 20 dollars? I don't know and I seriously doubt anyone else knows. If you ask TTT, they have no money. I find that very difficult to believe.

How much do I know about them? I'll tell you right now. Not much in the grand scheme of things, but more than most outsiders. Phil's info seems to be on par with what I hear. As I've said before - A good friend of mine has worked there for a while and he tells me things from time to time. He hasn't said how much money they have and I won't ask. As you say - it's a secret, but they have to have some money or they never would have got as far as they have. I could speculate from what I've seen from their setup and from what I see on this thread, but spreading rumors instead of facts is not very positive.

As for TC. A lot of people on the west coast know that most of the people at TC couldn't lead ants to a picnic. There are a million things that could hold them up. I know that some of their manuals are being held up, but are slowly being fixed. However with a startup you are last on the priority list with TC. They (TC) get to you when they have a few spare minutes. As for aircraft, HMY took 6 months longer to get their 757 certified in Canada because it has 2 overwing exits. They only ones before that had 4 entry doors and no overwings. Well no 747 has ever been certified in Canada in a pure freighter configuration. How long would that add to certification? God only knows.

It's been said before. They were probably a little optimistic as to how long it would take. But they are still forging ahead and are pretty positive about the whole thing. I still think they will go the distance eventually.

[PIA747]

Holland Canada line was hireing B747F Crews early this year.. i believe it was for service air. The positions have now been cancelled.

http://www.hollandcanadaline.com/main.asp?industry_num=3&menu_num=1

[FestusSlowPok]

PIA747, Holland Canada was not hiring for SA.

TTT, I think it's time for you to get your clown suit ready. Would you like some ketchup with your hat ??? When the time comes kindly let us know when you're going to be at SA's office in your clown suit. I'd like to see you, once again, making an idiot out of yourself. My guess is that you're not half the man you think you are and won't live up to your word.

Skyhawk, I'm with you. I sincerely hope SA makes it work and I think they will. I believe I've been talking to the same person on the inside as you have been. Fairly soon all the people that have been talking this company down will look like the:mad: that they are.
Just noticed SA's new website www.serviceair.net:ok:

[PIA747]

so they switched from a 742F to a 744F. Is this because the -400 would be easier to certify by TC

[FestusSlowPok]

I'm not sure about it being easier to certify but to my knowledge there are no 742's operating in Canada so maybe the 400 is easier to certify. Could it be that 744's are a better fit for their ops?..range, lift, availability etc ?

[skyhawk1]

Well I can see they have finally updated the site. I've actually known this for a while, but was sworn to secrecy. This is one reason they are taking so long. They had manuals written for the -200. Then due to numerous factors, switched to the -400. Thus having to re-write the books. The -400 will not be any easier to certify, but your right fetusSlowPok with a 200 a feul stop was needed. With the 400 non-stop is now possible. A secondary factor is ease of maintenance on some items.

[russellackland]

I heard a rumour from an Air Canada pilot that 747-400 cargo is already in their future. Will there be enough for all?

russell

[skyhawk1]

Yes there will be lots for all.

I've heard that rumor too. Word is - IF they get it off the ground it's only a few planes and it's only for their own cargo, as they currently run out of belly space too quickly. They are not working with everyday GSA's.

[Skpr74]

Having spent most of my career with AC (recently retired), I am thoroughly familiar with Mr. Dilon and his operation. Over the years some of my colleagues have flow Service Air aircraft. I know for a fact that Service Air's commercial plan will have no effect on AC's cargo market. In fact I can see AC utilizing this company's services!

[Phil Lister]

Well, it's nice to see that the slagging has slowed down.

As has been stated, the rewriting of manuals and the approval by TC can be a long painfull process. Hopefully once all the hoops have been jumped through, the operation can start and be successfull.

Best of the New Year to all.

Phil

[Up_And_Down]

Yes, perhaps they have something coming together, that would be great for us old dogs looking for something to drive based back in Canada, and for the Industry in general.

I have heard that through the early months of this operation Service Air lost the interest of some good people however, due to 'secrecy' and half truths about their financial situation - hopefully that has been cleared up with the people that are now involved.

I heard something about one of the guys orioginally involved running a weekly charter / ACMI with a Polar aircraft off the East Coast, and planning to put up their own aircraft eventually. Anyone have any info on that? Maybe they'll end up doing it with SAG?

[Festusslowpoke]

As positive as I'd like to be re SA making it work I'm now hearing they are having problems on many fronts none the least of which is acquiring metal. Skyhawk, I suppose you're hearing the same?
Given the fact that this plan has been worked on for so long one can't help but wonder if they will ever get off the ground.

[skyhawk1]

No. I haven't heard of any problems per say. (Other than what problems they already have - manuals, etc...)As for metal there are a few machines around that they are looking at but I havn't heard anything recently.

[Skpr74]

U n D

Through the early months there were some pilot types with big plans and bigger dreams hanging around SA. Sort of business men wanna-be's, excellant story tellers though. Proved themselves worthless and slowly fizzled away. I doubt very much that they would have ever been considered "good people".
Made a few inquires as to the east coast opperation, no one knows of it's exsistance.

Slow Poke

Don't know what you have heard or the kind of problems they're having, it's certainly news to me! Considering the fact that you can't go to your local hardware store, purchase these machines and just start flying. A logical assumption would be they're being imported, and that usually takes a considerable amount of time. SA has their claws in some aluminum tubes, and I don't mean beer cans.
Based on what some of us know it's not a matter of "if " it's simply when!!!

[Up_And_Down]

But the question remains - why so long?? Even HMY, who brought in aircraft with uncertified overwong exits, started their OC from scratch and went through the entire process, only took 6 months from the time of their announcement.

Maybe the difference is that HMY has $$$. Something doesn't smell right...

It also says on their website that they have 'commercial commitments' in place with GSA's - So?!?! GSA's only broker charter contracts and sell excess capacity on scheduled and charter carriers, they aren't express consolidators or network operators, so that's a joke.

If Polar / Atlas, Kalitta, Evergreen and others have aircraft parked at the moment, wouldn't that indicate an excess of capacity in the market? Unless these guys have firm contracts for certian forwarders or carriers, they better have a lot of money in their pockets to go out and develop a market for themselves.

Too many carrier execs are blowing these guys off as a joke when their name is mentioned, and that's never a good sign - including LeBlanc, Morin, Milton, Beddoe...if SAG gets in more than 2 or 3 rotations, I think it will suprise a lot of people.

[Skpr74]

U n D

You certainly sound like one of those "good people" could it be possible?!!! As stated in your profile, occupation bus driver. I sure hope it doesn't have wings! As you have serious discrepancies in the math department, considering it took HMY a bit over thirteen month's to get operational, So where does this so called six month's come from???
Also, as stated in your post of October 27 2003, you indicate SA has advertised their operation for over two years, I recall ever just seeing advertisement in March of 2003 on climbto350.
I personally am not interested in the operator's down south, being Canadian I'm only interested in what goes on in my back yard. My true support goes to any Canadian company trying to improve our industry.
I like the part about the airline exec's..... Do you really believe that?!?!

[Up_And_Down]

Nope, not one of the 'Good People', but I know a few of them. Enough people have gone through the doors there to start a football team.

You're not interested in the guys Down South - don't you think they have a direct impact on our markets??

And yes, the bus has wings. In fact - 2 more wings than anything Service Air has!! How's that for math.

[Phil Lister]

Let's not get nasty here boys..

[Festusslowpoke]

Hey, I wonder what ever happened to TTT. Maybe he got beat up too much in here and chickened out of coming back?

OK all you people-in-the-know, tell us whats happening with SA these days.

[Skpr74]

U n D

Not sure you have a handle on this math thing...now you've taken a few good people and turned them into a football team! Maybe 2+2 equals 40 in your part of the world.
Yes, south does have an impact on the market, let's let the operators worry about that. You and I sitting on the fence can't do a thing about it.
I'm relived to know your bus has wings, was getting a little concerned for awhile!

Phil, you are right. It was never intended to get nasty.

Slow Poke, I'll just sit on what I know.

[Up_And_Down]

Skpr74 - football team or 2 + 2, they're all still walking to the game, as there's no metal in SAG's near future...

[skyhawk1]

Alright. Let's stay calm here...

U & D,
How do you know there is no metal in their future? Do you know people at SA that told you? Do you work for a leasing company? Do you have a crystal ball? What would make you say such things?

[Skpr74]

Skyhawk...tu che!

U n D
"football team or 2 + 2, they're all still walking to the game"...HUH!???
SAG's metal; seen it, touched it...:ok:

[skyhawk1]

Skpr,
The only reason I was responding to U & D is because he is posting "fact" without a source. "as there's no metal in SAG's near future..." Where did that come from?

When I quote something - I name my friend as it's the only creditable source I have.

So I have to ask you the same. Where is their metal if you have touched it and seen it? It's certainly not at YVR.

As negative as some people are, one thing is true - They don't have any aicrcraft yet. Even my friend says they don't have planes yet, and that's fine with me. However I think they will get them sometime soon. When exactly - I don't know. I certainly don't say they can't or won't.

[Skpr74]

Skyhawk

Your right, it's not in YVR. Your friend is definatly holding back, like everyone else.
I wish I could post the pictures!

[Festusslowpoke]

Skpr74,
When did this so called touching incident take place and where?

[Up_And_Down]

I couldn't resist...

Pray tell Skipper, who touched whom, and where?

[Up_And_Down]

A good friend of mine, who is 'in the know' at SAG, has finally sent me a picture of the 1st aircraft to be delivered.
He tells me there's 3 more just like it on the way, and he's even in the picture with one of the other Senior people there...

All things being equal, this is the most credible, solid proof to date that has been posted here on the aptly named PPRUNE. So many rumours, so few facts.

Copy and paste into your browser if it isn't 'clickable'

SAG Fleet (http://www.bornaviation.com/dataplace/photos/fm_bathairplane_lg.jpg)

or:

http://www.bornaviation.com/dataplace/photos/fm_bathairplane_lg.jpg

NOW I'm convinced.....

[Left Coaster]

Several posts up and right on top of this one was a mention that HMY was in the works for 6 months from start to AOC. Never close guys, the actual number is quite higher...Almost 14 months, and it wasn't due to the overwing exit issue as some would try to put here. Try the fact that Transport Canada Inspectors were "working to Rule" during that period and it was a huge job to get anything approved by them, ask one who was there, he'll tell you the same. I hope that SA gets better treatment from the YOW crowd than HMY. BTW, the YVR TC guys were very co-operative and sensitive with the hurdles put in place by the Canadian Treasury Dept, (purse string holders for the govt of Canada) and went out of the way to try to get the approvals done in time to go flying. Best of luck to all..LC

[Phil Lister]

If you ever wonder why it takes so long for an airline to start in Canada, check this out... Especially check out the time to approve an MEL....

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/policy/PL143_att.htm

We should all be outraged with this kind of service...

No wonder aviation has gone down the toilet in this country...

[Left Coaster]

It's tragic guys, what the Govt has done is unforgiveable! One airline to survive at all costs, one "darling" for the press to love and the govt to hold up as an example of what competition is and service levels reminiscent of soviet efficiency;) ...Not a healthy environment for start-ups! Hope the pockets are deeeeep, and the patience level strong.

[Festusslowpoke]

Skpr74
Cut the crap and post the pic will ya. Put all the rumours to rest.
Or maybe you don't really have a pic? Maybe you're as full of it as these other naysayers?
Festus

[skyhawk1]

He can't, because they have no agreements in place for any a/c yet. They aren't ready for it. They want to get 2 or 3 more things cleared up with Transport Canada first

[Up_And_Down]

"He can't, because they have no agreements in place for any a/c yet. They aren't ready for it. They want to get 2 or 3 more things cleared up with Transport Canada first"


Maybe, just maybe - he can't because SAG has no contracts to fly, $0.00 in financing, no AOC and no aircraft!?

Sounds like the same old song and dance to me...

I'll believe it if I see it, but my gut (and a lot of people) tell me that this will fizzle out before it fires up.

C'mon Skpr74, Festus is right - put your money where your mouth is. The burden of proof lies with the people claiming to have aircraft...invisible ones or not.

[Phil Lister]

But who ever claimed that they had an aircraft??? Did you see a press release from SAG??? Or are you just foolish enough to believe the rumour mill??

The process is a long and tedious one, especially when you have to change types half way through..

There are a lot of fools out there who will trash anyone with any ambition, however, later on they are the same fools who are looking for a job if that person happens to get the operation up and running.

I have never figured out why anyone would trash someone for trying.. At least they are.. What have all you idiots who are trashing Service Air done to help out aviation in Canada?? Or are you just the mouthy minority who likes to hear themselves talk??

I've been around the block a time or two and will always support the person who is at least trying. Why someone wouldn't is beyond me because as we all know, aviation is a small world and you might need a job some day. Maybe if we all support those who would like to start a company that just might provide jobs, this industry wouldn't be in the crapper like it is now..

All of you who are crapping on SAG are only crapping on your own shoes because you, and I mean you, might be looking for a job some day and will then be glad to find someone who was willing to put the effort into starting an airline.

[Up_And_Down]

Actually Phil, on page 8, Skpr74 claims:

"SAG's metal; seen it, touched it..."

So someone's lying...who could it be!? Better take another walk around that block of yours and keep your eyes peeled for any stray 747's!

Actually Phil, on page 8, Skpr74 claims:

"SAG's metal; seen it, touched it..."

So someone's lying...who could it be!? Better take another walk around that block of yours and keep your eyes peeled for any stray 747's!

I suspect Skpr74's also 'seen and touched' the millions of dollars that SAG / JD needs to get this project rolling...I'm sorry gentlemen, but the Defense seems to have very little credibility.

[skyhawk1]

U&D,
Yea and I already told you they didn't have metal, and that comes from the inside. Skpr74 doesn't say what his sources are - He definatly doesn't speak for SAG officially. So, as Phil says, you just grabbed on to the rumor mill and went with it . I don't know who SKpr74 is - but he's just stirring the pot. Why do you say it's SAG thats lying? They haven't made any statements yet.

[Up_And_Down]

Skyhawk - I've read, and re-read my post, and I can't find the part where I said SAG's lying...only that 'someone' is...

How do we know that Skpr74 isn't on the inside!? How do we know you are!?

I just want proof...and the only solid evidence we have right now, is that the ramp is empty.

Do you speak for SAG officially? Who does?

However, according to their website (under Service), they say "Service Air has commercial commitments in place with established Canadian and foreign general sales agents (GSA's). "

Whoopie Doo...There isn't a GSA on the planet that will pay them or any carrier to fly a sched or charter service - they'll definitely try to sell their services, but would never sign a contract guaranteeing revenues, only guaranteeing that they'll sell their additional space to generate incremental revenues...If anyone tries to tell you differently, they don't know the business - at all.

[Skpr74]

Well...isn't this peachy! Go on a vacation and people get stupid/stupider.

UnD...buddy your condition has just gotten worse, it seems that your math problem has gone over to the English language. "only guaranteeing that they'll sell their additional space to generate incremental revenues..." READ THIS TEN TIMES AND SEE IF IT MAKES SENSE TO YOU! WHEN THE LIGHT GOES ON, TAKE YOUR FOOT OUT OF YOUR MOUTH AND MAYBE, MAYBE...MAYBE IT'LL MAKES SENSE TO YOU. KEY WORD BEING "ADDITIONAL SPACE." These people sell space, in order for them to sell additional space they must have sold the space that they were trying to sell! GET THE PICTURE! There's literally hundreds of GSA's scattered all over the world that are prepared to sign contracts.

I do have pictures, and I have been in the aircraft. Out of respect I will let the company post aircraft information and/or pictures. Oh by the way I have no interest in stirring the pot...

As for Service Air/JD's millions, no interest in seeing it. Know the sources intimately. For a number of years been associated with a group of individuals who purchase/sell/lease/finance Airliners. KNOW THE MARKET. :ok:

[Up_And_Down]

Skpr - yes, 'these people sell space'...but they only sell the space remaining after the carrier pays for the flight with a base load - i.e. the additional space...you have obviously never worked with the forwarders or GSA's to any significant degree - in which case I understand your ignorance.

Name 1 GSA that will charter aircraft on a scheduled, dedicated basis! I beg you! Consolidators and Forwarders, even commecial accounts will charter regular flights for ongoing business, but the GSA's will simply provide the carrier with additional, incremental and ad-hoc revenue on those flights that already have a base load. GSA's don't provide the base load, it's economies of scale - once a commercial account has enough traffic for a base load they go direct to the carriers.

I've read it an re-read it, and it makes perect sense to me, and most likely anyone who has anything to do with cargo - I think you should do some research outside the cockpit and "get the picture".

There isn't a GSA on the planet that will sign a contract for a scheduled charter in hopes that they can fill every flight and make some money - it's aways the carrier that takes the risk on the base load, and the GSA fills in the holes where they can. Sure, they'll sign contracts, why not!? They'll provide the carrier with forecasts - but they always make a % as commission, and they will never take the risk on the base load!

You're making some pretty lofty claims, nd you seem to think you're the guy who knows everything, so enlighten us and put your money where your mouth is: please prove these aircraft exist, because the ramp's still empty.........

[Festusslowpoke]

Skpr74
You have no pics, you have not been in the aircraft and it is quite obvious your mouth is bigger then your brain. You have proven yourself to be a "someone of importance" wannabe. I think you should have stayed on vacation....I'm sure your doctor would recommend it.

Anyone else have any solid news on whats happening lately?
Festus:D

[SAW]

Any updates on Service? Heard a rumour the Chief pilot has gone to Jets Go and the DFO was relieved of his duties. Who is minding the store? Are they dead in the water?

[TellTheTruth]

No need to apologize - personally I would have liked to see them in the air, and I didn't want to see people putting in time and not getting paid - unfortunately a few more people got burned by empty promises.

One of these days, someone with some money and brains will put something together and provide a few more seats in the air for us to play with, but as Ive said before - not that clown!

Good luck to everyone, I'll miss the playful banter of the 'Service Air 747' pipe dream...

Or Skpr74 - are the airplanes still coming!?!? wink wink

[skyhawk1]

Once again - people get half the truth and turn it into something else. They are not dead in the water.

To set the record straight. The DFO was FIRED! One reason - among many - he apparently couldn't organise ants to a picnic. The chief pilot did quit - but it was for personal reasons, and he will come back as a line pilot in the future. Yes - he went to Jetsgo.

Both were getting paid from the time they started to they time they left, not a lot mind you but they were paid. The amount was revealed to them before they came aboard and they agreed to it. I don't know where this thing about people not getting paid keeps coming from.

The DFO and Chief pilot have already been replaced.

TC has not removed SA's inspector. They are taking a less active role because 98% is done and they are now awaiting A/C delivery. (TC I mean)

As for airplanes - there are on going talks with a couple of parties - but no firm comitments yet. As soon as I know I will let you know when they will be delivered.

This company will fly - I hope it's not to much longer, but in business one never knows. At least they are trying. Poke fun at them as you will (it doesn't bother them), but at least they are trying.

[Festusslowpoke]

Hmmm, wonder why the Mod deleted the last post from Ropeadope? Some facts get out that shouldn't have been?

Skyhawk,
Here's what may buddy, who has been involved in this thing for years, told me. The DFO was getting a very small amount of money which SA decided they no longer could pay him. He quit!!

Also, the CP and DFO have not yet been replaced. If you maintain they have been replaced then give us names. It should be no secret...why would it be?

TC removed their Inspector because nothing is happening with SA and they didn\'t want to spend any more time on something that may never happen. That\'s not to say that they won\'t reactivate the file if and when something concrete starts to happen.

You are correct in that they are in talks with parties re ac but they have been in "talks" for a very long time. What\'s the delay??

Oh, and by the way, CP quit for other reasons none of which were personal.

Now, go back to your source, get your facts straight and come back and post acturate info.

I\'m not trying to trash thier efforts as I hope they get this thing going soon. If they don\'t someone else will and steal the idea. If you think my post contains incorrect info then I feel sad for my buddy because he has not been told the truth by JD.

[skyhawk1]

Festusslowpoke,
Ouch, I'm not here to get into a p*ssing match with anyone. Just passing on the news as I get it. My buddy has been involved with SA, almost since day one.

TC: I think were're both right. I don't know about ops but the maint inspector has not been removed. Their file is on the back burner at TC but what are they supposed to do when the manuals are mostly completed and SA needs a airplane next?

AC: When I ask my friend why it takes so long for an airplane to show up he just says "that's big business - but we'll get there". Maybe your friend can shed some light?

Personel: As far as he knows the CP quit due due to personnal reasons - and they weren't starving. Sounds like they were valid reasons too. Why doesn't someone track him down at Jetsgo and ask him? DFO - buddy says he was fired?? As for their replacments, some guys talked to SA said they would come aboard and went back to their home to give notice to their current employers. I will not post any names untill they sit at a desk at Service Air. Your buddy should be able to give you at least one name.

I'm not calling anyone a liar but there are three sides to every story: yours, mine, and the truth. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between the fist two. If SA is such a bad place to work why hasn't any of the so-called ex employees come fwd and said so?

[Up_And_Down]

"If SA is such a bad place to work why hasn't any of the so-called ex employees come fwd and said so?"

Maybe they've so much time and energy with Service Air, that they just don't have any left, even to post a thread here on the Rumour Mill....

The truth is, if JD had been upfront and honest from the beginning with everyone involved, he could very well have been airborne as we speak. Unfortunately I'm told that wasn't the case.

Maybe a rabbit will pop out of the hat, and they will get going - who knows! And if so, that would be great...but don't quit your jobs, or bet the farm until there's rubber on cement.

[Festusslowpoke]

Peter...errr ummm I mean Skpr74.
Maybe you could use your so called expertise in the "purchase/sell/lease/financing" of airliners and your knowledge of the market to help SA get their hands on an aircraft.
And about those pics you claim to have.........ummm, ya know what? Forget it, no time for this Sh&t today.

Oh, by the way,
U & D\'s third paragraph in his last post re "truth" is 100% bang on!!!!

[Up_And_Down]

Well well...it's been a while and I haven't had a chance to check in on the gossip - and I see there isn't any!

Maybe next year?! ;)

[74tweaker]

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha.........:D

Everyone is going to s@&t bricks when you see what they're up to!

[Up_And_Down]

S@itting anything at this point would be a start...All we've heard so far is a lot of grunting, but there's nothing in the bowl/ bowel!

Soon we'll all need a courtesy flush.

[74tweaker]

Ahhh.........U & D,
I was wondering how long it was going to take you before you came back with another witty remark!;)

[Up_And_Down]

While you were wondering how long it would take me to come up with a witty remark, the rest of us were wondering just how long it takes to get an aircraft delivered!

People with money and business waiting for them definitely don't take this long...although I'll grant you that sometimes the Turtle does indeed win the race, however not usually where airfreight is concerned.

In the menatime, I'll continue to prepare my colon for these impending bricks you speak of.

[skyhawk1]

Hey 74,
Nice to see you here!:cool:

[74tweaker]

U&D, I have to give you the benefit of the doubt and would think you are somewhat intelligent. We could get an airplane and put it on the ramp - but that wouldn't mean anything. Just because it's here doesn't mean that it's not a flying rattrap that breaks down on every flight. If things are not ready for the aircraft (manuals,crews,ops,certification,etc...) - why have it sit on the ramp chewing a hole in your budget? It will be here when SA is ready for it.

This is not a fly-by-night outfit that’s being set up here. Fred Smith has a saying "well matured" He used that for everything, and it served him well. There is no need for SA to rush, the work isn't going anywhere. There are also other problems when it comes to heavy freighters being certified in this country. However you can be assured that progress is being made.

I can understand your skepticism - I know I would under normal circumstances. Tell me - if someone came along who was a high school dropout and said they were going to create the largest airborne courier company in the world, we would all say "BS" but that’s what Fred Smith did - and now just about any of us would kill for a job there (FEDEX in case you didn't know).

I'm not in any way comparing SA to FedEx but Fred had a dream, believed in it, and made it happen despite anything negative. That's the same passion SA has. Everyone here is 100% dedicated.

I do enjoy and understand your point of view and think it's healthy for discussion. Until next time......Keep the blue side up!:ok:


Hey Sky,
Hows the right seat treating you?
:cool:

[lead zeppelin]

Has anyone heard any news recently re this operator?

From vieving this thread, it is hard to tell whether the company will get their airplanes or not due to the varying opinions expressed.

[74tweaker]

Yes - we will get planes.

As I said in the earlier post, once everything is set up properly and we are ready for them - no time will be wasted in bringing them on line.

I would like to know what you expected in an online forum? Many people naturally have different opinions, but we are still here and we are not going anywhere (except up!;) ). We have only been at the heavy freighter thing since Jan 2003 and part way through, for various reasons, switched A/C models which required us to start pretty much from scratch. So we are a little behind - but certainly not taking an extream amount of time.

[Up_And_Down]

Real planes??

Is this company capitalized enough to survice past delivery?

[fesmokie]

Without me having to go back through this entire forum, can someone tell me just what type aircraft this company decided to use after all ? Is it the Classic or the 400 ? Thanx

[74tweaker]

We will be using the 747-400.

[fesmokie]

Bummer.... I was hoping to see some classic's operate out of Vancouver . I would like to live in that area some day.:ok:

[Skpr74]

CONGRADULATIONS...JD and Company, it was just a matter of time...:ok:

[fesmokie]

So... OK now spill the beans...What happened ??

[lead zeppelin]

Yes, Skpr74......I'm curious as well.....

[Up_And_Down]

Congratulations indeed...for keeping so many people entertained for so long in this forum!!

[Up_And_Down]

So, Skpr74...

You 'congraDulated' Service Air...undoubtedly you meant to 'congraTulate'them...but pray tell, FOR WHAT!?

Sorry, but the suspense is just killing me with all of those brand new (invisible) 747-400F's parked on the ramp in Vancouver. Maybe WonderWoman will be the chief pilot!

In all honesty, I'd love to see them make it - but this is too much fun.

[Festusslowpoke]

Skpr74,
As usual you know nothing......it's only your imagination at work.
I know the inside scoop and I can tell you that very little is happening re aircraft aquisition. Some other stuff going on but these guys are a long way from gear up.
Your "congratulations" is extremely premature but I salute you for your optomistic attitude.
Come back with more info when you grow up a little, have the facts straightened out and you can share concrete info with us.
Otherwise you're just another supposed insider trying to pump things up with false info. Your credibility on Pprune and Avcanada for that matter keeps deminishing with every post you have made so far.

With posts from idiots like you it's easy for the rest of us to figure out who the wannabe's are....and you're one of them it seems.

Now go drink your milk and eat your cookies.

PS. You haven't even had the nuts to respond to Fosmokie, Zepplin and U and D. Tells me alot about you...dummy!

Peter...errrr...Skpr74,
All talk...no action. You\'ve been discredited on the forums. Bye bye dummy!

[lead zeppelin]

I assume no aircraft are on line as yet?

:confused:

[74tweaker]

I assume no aircraft are on line as yet?

No. Not yet - but major strides have been made.

As Festusslowpoke has pointed out. We don't know who Skpr74 is and he doesn't speak for us. He may get tidbits here and there, but doesn't have any hard facts and is just trying to stir the pot. Real news will be forthcomming as soon as there is something worth reporting (or that can be reported).

:ok:

[Festusslowpoke]

74tweaker,
It's obvious you don't know what you're talking about either because if you did you would know who Skpr74 is...as some of us do. And what gives you the right to act as spokesman for SA.
I think you're just another wannabe...just like your buddy Skpr74.
Both shooting your mouth off from behind your computer where you hide.

[74tweaker]

It's obvious you don't know what you're talking about either because if you did you would know who Skpr74 is...as some of us do.
We have some ideas - but no real proof. Why don't you tell us who he is?

And what gives you the right to act as spokesman for SA.
Umm........maybe because i work there and have for a while now. Just a thought.

I think you're just another wannabe...just like your buddy Skpr74.
Think I just answered that one. However, it's a free world - your allowed to think whatever you want.

Both shooting your mouth off from behind your computer where you hide.
Who's shooting their mouth off?? You yourself said Skpr74 wasn't credable - I simply agreed with you.

I wonder where all this hostility towards me comes from?

[Up_And_Down]

Can't we all just get along!?!? haha

74 - are you actually getting paid?

If you're 'working' there, you must be getting paid...
If you're not getting paid, it's called 'playing'.

Oh, look at what's written at the bottom of the page....

"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions."

If you actually 'work' at Service Air, and you truly 'know' something....then spit it out. Otherwise, anything you say, or anything anyone else says is pure speculation.

The only undisputable facts are this:
1 - SAG has no aircraft
2 - They have no contracts to operate aircraft (otherwise there would be a pile of investors lined up, and aircraft on the ramp already)
3 - They have a history of making BIG BIG plans and SUPER DUPER claims...but none of them have happened yet.

This smells like that blabber mouth Rosebrugh in Calgary that scammed his way into Cancom.

[74tweaker]

U&D,
Well, all I can say is it's money in my pocket!:D

I don't know how many times I've said that when there is something that can be said, it will. As for the "undisputed facts" you are right, and I have said - more than once - there are no aircraft yet.

As for number two - you have no knowledge of what contracts we do or don't have. So in your own words it "is pure speculation" on your part. We do have contracts in place - however it is not appropreate to say with who, or release details of those contracts AT THIS TIME. Details will be made public after the first revenue flights.

As for Rosebrugh, he tried to weasle in here at the beinging - and was quickly shooed away.

It's too bad your so negative about this company. We are trying to do something positive for Canadian aviation.


"a man with a positive mental attitude can overcome any adverseity and acheive his goals, but nothing on earth can help a man with a negative mental attitude."

[Up_And_Down]

Au Contrair 74...

According to the SAG website:

"Service Air has commercial commitments in place with established Canadian and foreign general sales agents (GSA's). More information will be provided when operations commence."

What is a 'commercial commitment' with a GSA worth? Absolutely nothing. There isn't a GSA on the planet that will make a revenue commitment, and that's a fact. If you disagree, you truly don't understand the air cargo business and you should stick to driving the bus.

In fact, when you do have an aircraft, and you are flying, I'll buy some space. There... now you have another 'commercial commitment' in place. What's it worth? Nothing.

I agree, SAG is trying to do something positive for Canadian Aviation. Unfortunately a taxi driver, a couple of bean counters, a dentist, a retired rent-a-cop and a computer Geek don't have what it takes to do it.

From the looks of it, there's only one decent person on the Administration side of things, but he'll need money and aircraft to do anything worthwhile. Let's hope you can give it to him.

Here's a quote for you...

'Brutus, thou dost protest too much.'

If you were making any headway, you'd be busy launching an airline, not beating a dead horse on PPRuNe.

[74tweaker]

Unfortunately a taxi driver, a couple of bean counters, a dentist, a retired rent-a-cop and a computer Geek don't have what it takes to do it.

:rolleyes: .........and Fred Smith was a high school dropout. What's your point?

[Up_And_Down]

You're comparing this group of Dorks to Fred Smith?!!?

Your head's in the clouds, unfortunately not in the 'I'm at FL350 in a 744F' kind of way.

I don't think anyone wants to hear from you again until you're waving at us from the window of a Service Air 747. So basically, we shouldn't hear from you again. Ever.

Good luck in the EI line. I'll save you a spot. (The lines are shorter in Alberta)

[lead zeppelin]

This may be of interest, given that it relates to Cargo...

-------------------------

Air Canada Cargo Subcontracts Dedicated Freighters

Air Canada Cargo yesterday announced that it has increased cargo capacity significantly on the north Atlantic and in Canada with the launch of new dedicated freighter services through subcontracted carriers.

Through a lease agreement with Gemini Air Cargo, Air Canada Cargo has introduced five times weekly freighter service between Toronto and Frankfurt. With a total cargo capacity of 85 tonnes, the MD-11 service represents a 16 percent increase in available weight capacity.

In addition, Air Canada Cargo has boosted freight capacity within Canada through an agreement with Cargojet Airways. Using Boeing 727 cargo aircraft on the Toronto/Calgary/Vancouver route, Air Canada Cargo provides its customers with an additional 18 tonnes of upper deck capacity four days per week.

"With the launch of dedicated all-freight services on key routes in Canada and over the North Atlantic, Air Canada Cargo is strengthening its position in the highly competitive cargo business by introducing new services that complement our shared capacity with Air Canada's passenger operations," said Claude Morin, vice president, Air Canada Cargo. "Today, with Air Canada having successfully restructured its business and reduced costs to competitive levels, Air Canada Cargo is positioned to succeed as a stand alone business unit."

Air Canada Cargo is a limited partnership of ACE Aviation Holdings, Inc. It offers cargo services on domestic Canada, U.S. transborder and international flights operated by Air Canada.

[74tweaker]

Thanks for that Zepplin.
It's interesting, except that there is nothing new in that news release - except the additional space on the MD-11 vs the 747 combi. A/C has been running freight across Canada for a while using ACE (All Canada Express) now they gave they contract to Cargojet. A/C will simply use these 2 carriers for 2-3 years untill they get their own cargo fleet up and running.

There's lots of freight to go around.:O




U&D,
You're comparing this group of Dorks to Fred Smith?!!?
No - not directly. But if a highschool dropout can do it - why not a couple of guys with some aviation experiance, business experiance, and some post secondary eduction?
If Fred Smith was starting Fedex today - you'd be dumping all over him right now too.

I've tried to be nice to you but you keep throwing insults. It's cruel to keep feeding trolls. If you keep doing it they will never learn to survive on their own. So I'm going to let you stand in your EI line by yourself. I do wish you the best though.

If anyone else has any serious questions or comments - I'll be around from time to time.
:cool:

[vrefplus5]

74tweaker,

Please check your pm's. Thanks

[Up_And_Down]

People have asked serious questions, and have only heard BS answers.

Frankly, with the way the economy and market is today, a 'Fred Smith' is highly unlikely to succeed. Gone are the days of Barry LaPointe flying around in a little piston popper being a pioneer of air cargo...

Now Richard Branson, Michele LeBlanc, Virmani...guys with a dump truck full of cash to throw into an operation, they are more likely to succeed these days.

Is one of those guys on the team? Didn't think so.........

[vrefplus5]

74tweaker,

Check pm's. Thanks again.

[747fanatic]

HCL, Crewing agency based in Vancouver is recruiting B744 or/and B742 crews for a Canadian Freight and combi start up operation. Can this be serviceair?

https://www.hollandcanadaline.com/00_Jobs&Crewservices/vacancies/contract/03CAN.htm

[lead zeppelin]

Interesting..........second officers need 2000 hrs on type, and first officers need only 1000 hrs on type.

[Up_And_Down]

Even more interesting...no new B747's in YVR...

[eight iron special]

3.1415926 at FL350



:hmm: :p

[russellackland]

No word yet on this ? cargo airline? I have watched this thread from its first post...it has missed the "8" ball.....if it was ever in the game.
It is just sad to see it fall to the bottom of the "message board", so I figured it was time to say something about this ? cargo airline.

russ
NWA 747-200 Cargo - furloughed

[74tweaker]

:rolleyes: .........................................................

[Rosbif]

Pie in sky ... Very witty !

[lead zeppelin]

http://www.serviceair.net/index.html

[74tweaker]

Well...........

From all of us at Service Air to all of you - We wish you happy holidays and a very happy and safe new year.

:ok:

[Up_And_Down]

And a very Merry Christmas and happy Holidays to those 'working' at Service Air as well.

Hopefully everyone will get the gift of insight, and JD will put a little truth in the stockings this year.

[29chev]

Nice web site....exactly how many aircraft does Service Air operate ;)

[Up_And_Down]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......HA!!

Well, according to the website, they have been providing all kinds of domestic and Int'l services for years! They must have quite a fleet!! Oh, what's this... breaking news....they don't even own a pair of wheel chocks!? This can't be... JD assures everyone it's 'not a concern', just a minor 'delay', a hiccup if you will. The fleet will be arriving any moment. If you hold your breath long enough, I guess the little stars you see kiiiiiiiiiiiiinda look like a fleet of 74's arriving...now, work for nothing, and feel free to invest if youhave any spare cash - not to worry, we're right on track!!

Oh this is better than the 'Day's of our lives'. Perhaps, 'As The Windsock Turns...the Bull**** Flies'.

[74tweaker]

U&D,
You mean you just looked at the website now????

I thought a naysayer like you would have been all over that ages ago.:rolleyes:

FYI. We do own a set of wheel chocks. Where does it say we don't?

[Up_And_Down]

OK, maybe you have some chocks - I'll give you that much credit.

But please enlighten us - just when exactly did the last "Domestic and / or International passenger and cargo service throughout Western Canada and the Pacific North Western U.S.A." take place!?

I'm just not sure that one Beaver, 'operated' years ago, constitutes a fleet.

Obviously any small company will stuff socks down their pants to look bigger than they really are - but you have to admit, that website is way beyond Bollocks!!

[vrefplus5]

74tweaker,

Please check PM's. Thanks

[eight iron special]

Plumber's R.E.M. sleep

[Up_And_Down]

Pipe Dream! Very witty... Could also be 'full of Sh!t' I guess. I'm not a plumber, my paycheck proves that!

[eight iron special]

STOLEN

Nitrogen N2 78.084% 99.998%
Oxygen O2 20.947%
Argon Ar 0.934%
Carbon Dioxide CO2 0.033%
Neon Ne 18.2 parts per million
Helium He 5.2 parts per million
Krypton Kr 1.1 parts per million
Sulfur dioxide SO2 1.0 parts per million
Methane CH4 2.0 parts per million
Hydrogen H2 0.5 parts per million
Nitrous Oxide N2O 0.5 parts per million
Xenon Xe 0.09 parts per million
Ozone O3 0.07 parts per million
Nitrogen dioxide NO2 0.02 parts per million
Iodine I2 0.01 parts per million
Carbon monoxide CO trace
Ammonia NH3 trace

[Up_And_Down]

Their air has been stolen!?

[29chev]

Take my breath away?

[Up_And_Down]

Where's 74tweaker these days? Too busy fueling 747's to enjoy a little witty banter? What about all the rest of the SAG cheerleaders? Have they all been pumped and dumped by the QB already? When will the next 'execs' get suckered in the door...?

Tune in next week, for the most shocking rose ceremony ever!

[74tweaker]

Oh - don't worry little buddy. I'm still here as are all the rest of us. I'm actually having fun trying to decifer Eight Iron's cryptic little messages.......Very witty actually and more fun than crossing swords with you all the time.

[lead zeppelin]

HOT AIR!

[fesmokie]

74tweaker

If you folks end up with a Classic and need a sim instructor, PM me. I live close to Vancouver. :ok:

[74tweaker]

Aaahhh. Hot air - that was a good one eight iron...........even had U&D stumped, not that that would be a hard thing to do.:p

fesmokie,
Thanks - we'll keep ya in mind.:ok:

[eight iron special]

Kudo's to Page, Plant, Jones, and the late Bonham.

[lead zeppelin]

http://www.worldairways.com./news/20050308.html

WORLD AIRWAYS TO OPERATE CARGO SERVICE TO ASIA AND EUROPE FOR AIR CANADA

PEACHTREE CITY, Ga. (March 8, 2005) – World Airways, a wholly owned subsidiary of World Air Holdings, Inc. (NASDAQ: WLDA) has signed a two-year ACMI wet-lease contract with Air Canada for international cargo service between Toronto, Canada and several cities in Asia, and between Toronto and Europe. Under the agreement, World will operate an MD-11F freighter aircraft for Air Canada beginning in May 2005. The contract has an estimated value of $44 million.

“Air Canada is a leader in the airline industry, and we welcome the opportunity to partner with them as they expand their cargo operation,” said Rob Binns, World’s senior vice president, marketing and planning. “ This agreement extends World’s presence in the flourishing Asian cargo markets.”

World Airways, a wholly owned subsidiary of World Air Holdings, Inc., is a U.S.-certificated air carrier providing customized transportation services for major international cargo and passenger carriers, the United States military, and international leisure tour operators. Founded in 1948, World operates a fleet of 16 wide-body aircraft to meet the specialized needs of its customers. For information, visit www.worldairways.com.

[“Safe Harbor” statement under the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995: This release contains forward looking statements that are subject to risks and uncertainties including, but not limited to, the impact of competition in the market for air transportation services, the cyclical nature of the air carrier business, reliance on key marketing relationships, fluctuations in operating results and other risks detailed from time to time in the company’s periodic reports filed with the SEC (reports are available from the company upon request). These various risks and uncertainties may cause the company’s actual results to differ materially from those expressed in any of the forward looking statements made by, or on behalf of the company in this release.]

[74tweaker]

Well - that's all folks.

We had a deal pending with our half of the lease signed - but looks like we lost out to Air India.

Don't know what's next, money is almost gone and no other A/C available right now. We'll see if we can keep it open - but I'm not holding my breath. Thanks to all the cheerleaders. As for the Naysayers - we didn't fail for any of the reasons you've dreamed up.:ok:

[AAIGUY]

There are more B747 frieghters on the market than you can imagine. This failed for two reasons, JAG had no financing and no experience.

[Rosbif]

Why o why o why is Air Canada allowed to subcontract its work out to a US carrier ? I've said it before. Ever wonder why there are so few good flying jobs in Canada?. -- And where does the AC pilot's union stand on this. Your pax flying will be next if you allow this kind of thing. Freight is always used as the thin end of the wedge. Cargo first, then the subcontract for some pax flying on "unprofitable routes to build a market".
The Canadian government is asleep at the wheel on this.
Is there a connection between World and AC? Did some of the world execs work at AC before?

[AAIGUY]

Indeed there is a HUGE connection between World and AC. Well spotted Rosbif!

[cargodawg]

Rosbif,

And what Canadian operator should be supplying these services to Air Canada? A fantasy 747 operator (Service Air/Titan Air), a DC10 operator (ACE)?

The MD11 is a great aircraft for this run. 200K payload and a great fuel burn. The DC10 wont get you the payload required on a transpacific run, and the 747-200 fuel burn makes it less economical to operate versus the MD11.

Obviously it's not fair to make Air Canada use the wrong aircraft for the job just because it's Canadian... Wait a sec, the government already does that by blocking out American satellite TV providers (but that's another battle).

If there were a Canadian MD11 operator they would have the business as the CTA would not grant the rights to Gemini/World/etc.

Let's say this was trucking and I needed a 5 ton, but my only local options were a 53' tractor or a minivan. Should I have to settle on one of those because they're Canadian or do I have the rights to search out the correct tool for the job.

[29chev]

Rosbif,
The Cargo work comes back in house (AC) in 07 with delivery of the B777F aircraft that are part of the big boeing order AC just placed.:ok:
29

[Rosbif]

What a bunch of tosh.
When AC needs a DC 10 they call ACE and then ACE tries to get one going. Transport then drag their feet until AC have an excuse to go somewhere else for the lift. They then need an MD 11, and before anyone in Canada has the opportunity to lease one and then get it approved, in comes World with one ready to go.
It seems strange to me that AC always has a requirement for whichever aircraft is not available in Canada and then changes its requirement if the aircraft does become available.
It is also not a coincidence that World is run by someone very close to AC. (if memory serves me correctly)
Whether the cargo work really comes back to AC's 777"s remains to be seen. If AC can continue to get away with using cheaper US based subcontractors, they will apply for extensions and drag it out for as long as they possibly can. If a Canadian subcontractor puts out a bid with a suitable aircraft, AC will change the requirement at the last moment to something that no Canadian operator has.
That is how this game is played. It's all about getting the job done as cheaply as possible. That is why the Halifax 747 incident happened, and it is why our jobs are given away to whoever will do them cheapest.
The Canadian government is asleep at the wheel -as usual.

[Cyow]

Rosbif. You still haven't answered the question. Which operator in Canada has a widebody cargo machine to meet the requirements of AC? You yourself state that AC whent to ACE first. If ACE can't provide the equipment, now what? AC runs a business not unlike any other- time is money, money is time. Suffice it to say that all this contract sh*t runs out shortly and as per the deal signed with Milton, AC pilots WILL be flying cargo soon, your cheap shots are a reflection of your misery.

This forum provides a means to let the steam out but also shows how miserable people are. I suspect you're in the latter group (towards AC). No harsh feelings mate, just an observation, eh?

[cargodawg]

Rosbif,

Not sure what "that's a bunch of tosh" means.

You might want to spend a little more time looking at the economics of these aircraft and less time concerning what flag is on the aircraft.

The DC10 is a less than ideal tool for transpacific. Run the numbers and you'll lose your shirt with it trying to operate PVG-ANC-YYZ with enough yield to make a buck!

Don't see Transport Canada having anything to do with this. The DC10 cannot do the asia run as profitably as a MD11 - period!


I'd find it hard to believe that ACE would have gone out and secured a DC10 without a LOI or a contract from AC. If they did shame on them. If AC had a contract with them then they can expect a legal battle at some point.

Additionally, why would Air Canada or ACE be eager to do business with each other after AC cancelled the domestic contract in September?

From all I've seen and read it appears to be a "if you build it they will come" type approach but who knows. John's a smart guy at ACE and they'll likely have some work lined up for it (heard at one point an intra-Europe operation).

Either way, definitely best of luck to ACE and congrats on the new addition.

Don't know what your beef is with Air Canada or with World, but the fact is that foreign operators currently have the equipment to do the job. If a Canadian operator could get a decent wide body freighter in operation there would be plenty of opportunity.

Don't understand how you're bringing the YHZ incident into this discussion. I guess by your standards no foreign operators should operate on Canadian soil? The MK air flight wasn't being subbed out by any Canadian carrier and was stopping in YHZ to top the load. What's a Canadian operator to do, try and operate YHZ-LGG for fish? The only way these guys were trying to make it work was to split the load between JFK and YHZ and since no Canadian operator was servicing the run, TC granted the rights.

If ACE had secured an aircraft that was suitable for the task I would say that perhaps you have a slight arguement, but to say the DC10 should suffice wrong. But, the two are not the same. The MD11 has almost 25% more capacity and payload with a lower fuel burn... But I guess that's not really a consideration right? Just the fact that it's a foreign carrier.

Either way, sounds like you're all full of piss and vinegar, so enjoy your rant.

[Up_And_Down]

74Tweaker - you had a deal pending with your half of the lease signed!? I've never heard anything so stupid. Of course you had your half signed...only problem was that the other half needed to be signed, that's the important half.

The only reasons 'dreamed up' were that there was no money, no experience, no business. Pretty simple. It was a lame dog from the start, and JD has proven his track record once again. Hopefully no one else lost too much time / money.

Oh, by the way - A/C are a dime a dozen right now...if you had money, business and experience, you'd at least know that! But I'm sure it's 'not a problem'...

I hate to say I told you so.

[c150driver]

Talk about being miserable....CYOW, and Cargodawg...you guys certainly fit the description....just MY observation:}

[Cyow]

C150. You seem to have a habbit of piping-in with short stupid comments that don't contribute anything to the thread. You have been referred to as a lonely instigator in a previous thread. Why don't you show us how useful you are in a positive way for once.
It's not that hard. You just have to stay focussed on the topic, and try to resist any stupid comments that seem to be constantly distracting you. This will also help you at your AC interview if you're lucky to get one. Remember now, I'm just trying to help you out. Cheers mate.

[Rosbif]

C your whatever and Deputy Dawg.
I wasn't trying to answer your questions, and you have not tried to answer mine.

My point, in case you missed it, is that Air Canada seems to get whatever it wants from the Canadian government. It is very convenient to them that there are no Canadian operators with lift that meets their requirement. It gives them an excuse to subcontract to cheaper US (or other) based companies. (Do I have to remind you that Canadians cannot even apply to work for these companies, even when they are hauling freight within Canada's border ?)

I suspect that if there were a Canadian company that could get the job done for a reasonable price with exactly the right aircraft, AC would most likely tell everyone that their requirement had changed.
I think that some people confuse cause and effect.

It is a perfectly clear and coherent argument, and one that I am sure all of the AC supporters would understand if, for example, Sunwing were to start plying some of the favourite AC routes with aircraft from Iceland or the UK. Suddenly, you would all be against subcontracting to foreign carriers.

And for your information, both c150 and I have jobs and are not bitter in the slightest. I for one, however, find your "I'm alright Jack" attitude very uncaring and selfish.

I do not think that the hundreds of Canadian pilots waiting for jobs to materialise would agree that subcontracting to foreign carriers is something that other Canadian pilots should be condoning.

Some (not all) of you AC types seem to live in your own little world.

[c150driver]

CYOW....me too stupid to undastand watt you sayying:ugh:

[cargodawg]

c150, I read your lame dribble over on the "other" forum and see you've decided to bring your useless comments here. Learn to articulate your position or sit back in the cheap seats and remain a silent observer. See bottom.

Rosbif, wow, that's a witty comeback trying to come up with some lame derogatory "burn" on some user handles. Very nice - you must have done well on your debate team.

What you fail to see in the picture here is that this is business first. This is not a socialist "make-work" project for Canadians as you'd like to see.

If the job could be done by a Canadian company with Canadian pilots, great. If not (which is clearly the case) so be it. Should AC shut the program down because canucks aren't at the stick? I'm sure you'd love to see that.

This arrangement allows AC to test the cargo model with the desired aircraft type prior to bring it in house. I suppose you'd like to see AC go out purchase the aircraft, train the crews, invest in the infrastructure only to find that the model doesnt work. Or perhaps you'd like to see some other Canadian carrier go out, get the aircraft required, train the crews, only to have it disappear in a couple of years when AC takes it inhouse. And then what's to become of them with no contract or home for the aircraft?

You need to have a bit more vision and look further down the road son. Your myopic views are what cause short term gain and long term pain.

And Canadian pilots at a disadvantage? You need to stop feeling sorry for yourself. How many Canadians are flying abroad for carriers like Cathay, etc etc. Perhaps the Chinese should kick all of them out because they're foreigners.

So I hardly think that a few MD11 flight crews operating here on a relatively short term basis are creating the downfall of Canadian aviation as you'd like to lead people to believe.

As far as I'm concerned this thread is done to stir the pot.


C150,

This from the other forum you like to troll at:

Hey

Well like most of you guys know I\\\'m only 14 and trying to figure out what I should do for the future. What career path I should take. Tell me what you think?

Plan A

Try to get in Chicoutimi CEGEP in their \"Pilotage d\\\'aéronefs\" program(which I highly doubt Ill get in).

http://www.cegep-chicoutimi.qc.ca/

Plan B

Get in at John Abbott CEGEP in their Aircraft Maintenance program while getting all my ratings(Night-Multi-Commercial-CFI) at a local flight school.

http://www.johnabbott.qc.ca/cgi-bin/jacloader.pl?departments/admissions/programmes/air_Maint/Aircraft_MaintenanceE.htm

Should I go to university?



So son, best of luck. When you\\\'ve a least passed grade 9 feel free to jump in with an EDUCATED argument. Otherwise save your school yard antics for recess.

Rosbif, I see you\\\'re in good company with C150.

[Rosbif]

My point, in case you missed it again, is that AC always gets what it wants. The reason that they can get cheap subcontractors to do their work is that Transport Canada takes a ridiculously long time to approve aircraft and operations. (partly the gist of this original thread) The result is that the same aircraft end up operating here on foreign flags.
Whether AC actually operates the 777's it has ordered on these exact routes remains to be seen, but I would think that if they can make money using the subcontractors they will delay and possibly deploy the 777s to other routes.
While it takes a very long time and a lot of money to get an operation or new aircraft type going in Canada, (ask Cargojet or ACE) it seems that all AC has to do is pick up the phone and they can operate any aircraft they want on any route they want on the grounds that no viable Canadian alternative exists.
You have not even started to address these arguments and attack the personalities instead.
Remember that this type of thing might not always be restricted to pure cargo ops. With recent agreements with US airways in the picture, and AC struggling to train sufficient numbers of pilots, I think that you will be coming over to my side of the agument when US carriers start doing AC's pax work.
Only time will tell if I am right, but by then it will be too late.
- And I am not your "son". Did they teach you to talk down to people like that on your AC captain's course?

[Cyow]

Rosbif. Well, where do I start? Unfortunately I don't think there's much hope here, but let me give it a try. First of all, it's not AC that gets its way with the government, rather it's the other way around. But since you're not an AC employee, I can understand your ignorance. All you have to do is look back at the forced merger with Canadian, and how Transport Canada is able to keep many inspectors employed to keep an eye on Big Red and let's not forget the Air Canada Act which unfairly restricts AC the way no other company is subjected to anywhere else in the world.
On the question of sub-contracting, you should know that this is a very normal and standard practice in this business. Zoom airlines has subcontracted a UK company to do some of its flying. It was really nice to see a UK registered airplane on our soil doing our flying. But then again Skyservice goes over to the UK and "takes jobs away from them", doing some of their flying. Canadian operators have a long history of flying overseas contracts, ie Natioair, Clubair, Skyservice etc etc. Air Canada pilots were not very amused when the company and our union failed to keep the cargo flying in-house. Suffice it to say that contract will soon be over and AC pilots will be doing that flying in the very near future. But again, it is a very normal practice and I honestly don't think that one foreign MD-11 will have a great impact on your future. I don't know if I have succeeded in showing you a bit of reality, but let me say that I do understand your frustration.

[cargodawg]

Rosbif,



but I would think that if they can make money using the subcontractors they will delay and possibly deploy the 777s to other routes.

Unless AC's operating costs are completely out of line, AC will be able to do it inhouse far cheaper than by that provided by an ACMI operator.

As far as "cheap" goes, again, you need to understand the economics of it. The MD11 freighter is in extremely high demand right now (name me one operator that has one parked at the moment) so why would AC be getting some plum deal??? Supply/demand = Gemini/World/etc charging whatever the market will bear. They don't need to reduce the rate when they can deploy it anywhere.

Whether AC actually operates the 777's it has ordered on these exact routes remains to be seen, but I would think that if they can make money using the subcontractors they will delay and possibly deploy the 777s to other routes.

Deal reached between Management and pilot group that will allow subcontract to operate for two years before coming in house. You are basing your whole position on personal assumptions and bais against AC.

That is how this game is played. It's all about getting the job done as cheaply as possible. That is why the Halifax 747 incident happened, and it is why our jobs are given away to whoever will do them cheapest.

So, with ACE operating (until recently) ex Cuba to central America, from EWR-BDA, and formerly in south east asia how is that not an issue to you??!!! So I guess it's okay for Canadians to operate 5th freedoms but not anyone else right?


I have no desire to make "personal attacks" but find it incredibly frustrating when uneducated/unfounded statements are made with the shear intent to stir a pot. Put together a half decent argument based on fact and I would be more than happy to argue it. I've yet to see any of that in your threads.

Or, as you already stated:
And for your information, both c150 and I have jobs and are not bitter in the slightest.

Based on the previous thread and C150s previous statement on his position, what jobs would it be that you two have? Paper routes? You can figure out your response at recess or over lunch between Leave it to Beaver and the Flintstones.

[c150driver]

Boy, you guys is good...when I graduate, I hope to be as smart as you!:p

It\'s very easy to get you all "fired up"...maybe that\'s why I do it (I have nothing else to do until I start delivering papers at 4:30!);)

[brucelee]

Well C150. Once again you've just proved what you really are. Your only purpose on this forum is not to provide intelligent debate or help others in getting usefull info. No. You just enjoy getting people "fired up". I guess that's easy to do in an anonimous forum, I wonder if you would be the same if we all knew your true identity. If you work as a professional pilot, I suggest you don't reveal this to your employer. You also might stand to lose your medical because of your condition. If you don't yet work in this industry, you might whant to consider seeking professional help to overcome this problem of yours before getting in. You know, I hear that AC might be using psyke analysis to screen potential candidates.

[c150driver]

If AC is using Psych analysis, I am definitely in trouble!:}
C'mon guys...lighten up a little...if you don't enjoy it then why respond?
As for intelligent debate, I've never been known to exhibit much intelligence:uhoh:

[cargodawg]

c150,

Can't speak for anyone else, but I take my career and my livelihood seriously and not about to allow anyone to take pot shots at it without an fight.

I believe there is a humour forum if that's the sole intent of your posts.

Maybe when you have a career, a family, mortgage, bills, responsibilities, etc you'll appreciate what I'm saying.

[c150driver]

Cargodawg...perhaps you take yourself too seriously...I don't recall taking any pot shots at you. I believe that if you look at your previous posts, you will notice yourself insulting others and talking down to them...that is not what I would call intelligent debate....Please leave Beaver and the Flintstones out of this, they did nothing to harm you.

[cargodawg]

Talk about being miserable....CYOW, and Cargodawg...you guys certainly fit the description....

Need to work on your short term memory there buddy. I recall you deciding to try and single me out a few posts ago.

Insulting others? didnt think so.

Did I use some sarcasim? Absolutely. When unfounded pot shots are being taken at AC why not. Should I sit idly by as someone decided to go on a negative rant on Air Canada? That may be acceptable to you , but not to me.

Take myself too seriously? Hardly. Take my job seriously, definitely.

Perhaps the "tone" of my messages were not to your liking. If you read back a few weeks you'll quickly see it did not start that way, but unfortunately digressed due to the nature of other members posts.

I'll try and sweeten things up and use a bit more sugar coating to help make the tone of the debate more pallatable for you.

Or, better yet, if you have something constructive to add to this argument to either side please feel free. I've yet to see anyone back up Rosbif's claims with some supporting fact. And I've yet to see an ounce of contribution from you, apart from pot shots at others with no contribution to the discussion at hand.

Ok, here's what I'll do. I'm not going to read here for one week and we'll see if in that time someone's been able to come up with a solid argument to support Rosbif's claims. If one presents itself I'll rescind my position.

[brucelee]

C150.
You whant us to lighten up a little but you state that you like to see us fired up. Dude, what's up?

[pictues01]

Rosbif i guess you rhink Cargo Jet is a foriegn carrier then????? Air Canada currently wet-leases a coupke of CArgo Jet B727's to transport cargo domestically. Cargo Jet is Canadian and they are doing it cheaper then ACE Cargo was able to so now with the same type aircraft and more reliablity, due to Cargojet having spare aircraft sitting in YVR and Hamilton to replace a mechanical plane as they don't fly until the evening and AC's leave in the morning at least in YVR, Air Canada is able to create more profits then with ACE.

Also I remeber Air Canada doing some Pasanger flights for QANTAS not long after Sept 11 and the collapse of Ansett Austrailia. That was only until QANTAS was able to get more lift themselves. Also when CAthay had to ground their A330's Air Canada flew there A340's that would just be sitting in HKG anyway for Cathay Pacific to replace some of the flights CX's A330's were doing. It works both ways, World and Gemini are providing Lift until Air Canada gets the 2 B777F's and if the demand is there the order will be increased.

Plus the B777-200LRF Can carry the same amount of cargo the MD 11 can a liitle further and has only 2 engines, plus a lower fuel burn.

[c150driver]

Why would he think Cargo Jet is foreign???

[pictues01]

He is saying all the cargo work for AC is done by Foriegn Carriers, just reminding him that is untrue

[74tweaker]

Rope,
Your the biggest liar around. I'd really like to know what money of yours you wasted. I highly doubt you are out anything - and even if you are - it's probably that $2.95 you used to buy cream for your coffee.

Would you please tell me what "more profitable and higher yield mediums" we invested in???

Besides - it doesn't matter anymore anyway.........as I said before - we are done.

[Rosbif]

I think we are losing sight of things a little here chaps.
I was just trying to make the point that if it takes less time to get approval to use a foreign carrier than the time it takes for a Canadian carrier to get approval to use a specific type of airplane, then we will always have a problem.
The work will always go to the foreign carrier.
Remember Vista (or whatever they were called). It took forever to get their plane certified. What about the time that it took ACE to get a DC 10 going? Serviceair seem to have had problems related to certification.
A solution would be to block foreign contracts for a specific type of aircraft while a Canadian company has a bona fide (not frivolous) application filed for addition of that aircraft type to its OC.
Meanwhile, the game goes on and Canadian flying jobs are lost.

[cargodawg]

Rosbif,

Again, there's a bit of a difference between a DC10 and an MD11.

MD11 will make you money on Asia, DC10 will help you lose it hand over fist.

[74tweaker]

As usual rope - you have no idea what your talking about.

I don't know why I should try to explain it to you AGAIN, as you would never listen to us before.......I don't know why you would start now.

Yes............certification is one of the major problems that we were facing. Anything can be certified eventually, but how much time is it going to take - that is a huge problem.

[TellTheTruth]

Thanks Rope!

I hate to say I told you so to the cheerleading squad...but...I did!

JD is not Fred Smith - he's more like Ronald McDonald without the business sense - that would make him just a clown with a taste for burgers.

If he'd had cash, and had 'told the truth' from the start, anything would have been possible. He's just proven his track record again.

Tweaker - your bum must be sore, cause he's been riding you like a stallion for a while!!!

[Patman]

You guys are funny!! Now I know why I left Canada, Refuse to fly for AC, and enjoy flying the MD-11 for Gemini!!

As I sit here in my hotel room in T.O. reading this before my YYZ-FRA hop inthe -11 I get a good laugh. IF you are so jealous of the flying in the US, pay the money, hire a lawyer, and get a green card. Gemini loves Canadians. Some of them even live in Canada and commute. I guess they should be out of a job because of your near sightedness on a 4 year contract to Gemini, yes it was extended 2 more years....

Using an ACMI carrier is a great idea for the next few years. The 777-200ERF won't be off the line until 09, and at 210 million USD each, that makes expensive freight. And sure it hauls more farther for cheaper than the -11, but is AC filling the -11's?

As far as world, and Gemini doing AC ACMI, this is a good litmus test for AC to see if they can even do their own freight and make money. Why do you think they sold the DC-8 freighters? Too cost prohibitive to pay for MX, and crews,...etc.

What is the crew cost for an AC crew to fly freight? I can do a 30 hr duty day with a full HEAVY crew. It sucks, but sometimes it is required to catch up the schedule due to mechanical, or freight issues. What would the AC boys say about that? " Sure we'll fly our butts of in the next 30 hours to get back on sched..." I think not.

[brucelee]

Patman.
You seem to be proud about flying heavy metal for less than what you should. Oh ya, business is business I guess. You're right, it is good for AC to find someone that can do it cheaper. Won't last forever though. And when AC pilots take over your contract, then what? Sure, Gemini doesn't rely on AC alone. I'm sure you guys have enough contracts to stay busy. But contracts expire. Do you hope and pray that more contracts come along? See, as an AC pilot, hope and pray is one thing I don't have to do anymore. Keep flying your 30 hours. And keep on hoping and praying. I am truly convinced that when pilots are payed less than bus drivers, you won't laugh too much sitting in your MOTEL room in T.O. And I will personally send you a thank you note on this forum.

[Patman]

Again, you are killing me. As a CRJ Capt I made more than my dad, a A340 CApt at AC! I haven't paid 50% income tax in years... And when was the last lay off at AC? Hmmm. yes, AC is so stable.

But enough about that. I have friends at AC and I hope there is never another layoff there. But my point is that a 4 year contract is not a bad thing for AC, and if there was an MD-11 in Canada I am sure it would have gotten the contract as Canadian Wages are much lower than US wages for similar flying. Look at FedEx and their poor affiliat in Canada. Night and Day. US Fedex guys make a ton, while the poor guys in FedEx paint in CA are severely underpaid.

By the time the 777F is on line AC will have a great handle on how to run the freight operation under their union constraints, and Gemini and World will be off flying freight somewhere else.

As for me I made the decision not to return to Canada to fly as there is no money in it comparatively. But as a Typed MD Capt at my age, I will not go without a good paying job even if Gemini were to fold, however unlikely as the Carlyle group told us to buy the 777f's if we wanted them... (nice to have ownership like that...look them up)

$120.00 and hour US (65 hrs/month) and 10 % income tax is working fine for all the Gemini Capt's.......

Cheers

Oh yeah, bruce It\'s not quite a motel,...But maybe I\'ll meet you in the FRA-Maintz hilton and we can have a beer!

Cheers

[AAIGUY]

PATMAN, you are so right. Even as a FO on the 747 overseas I make more than a Air Canada A340 Capt. However, I do have to work for it and fly a full month, not sit at home and collect a salary for my 30hrs..
Our jobs pay very close, but I have not tax :) all offshore :)

[brucelee]

Pat.
You made more than your A340 dad when you were on the RJ?
The average RJ fo salary in the US is in the mid $30k. This suggets to me that captains get about twice that. An A340 capt at AC makes $200k plus a year. Either you're smoking some cheap American weed or you must have been a very special RJ captain to make more than $200k a year on the RJ. Even after all the tax your dad paid, I bet he was still wealthy compaired to you and didn't have to leave home either. Look I've said many times on this forum that leaving Canada is a personal choice, not a reflection on life here. If you don't like to pay taxes (who dose) to the point that it makes you whant to leave, that's fine. We owe you guys alot for making room for us in the job market.
See ya in FRA and you buy the beer since you make more money.
Cheers.

[AAIGUY]

Sorry BLee, there are many RJ Capts overseas taking home over a $100K USD overseas which far exceeds the after tax pitance an AC Capt takes home.

Folks in Canada have no idea home much they are worth. Currently being proven by the amount of guys who have accepted employment at Gulf and China Air with their sub par salaries, mine here at AAI isn't great, but its still about $120,000 (CDN $ ) a year take home tax free. Beats AC.

[brucelee]

If you find that there is such a huge difference in salaries due to taxes that it makes you whant to leave your country, that's your decision. We have pilots at AC that commute from other countries just to avoid the taxes here. My point is that we live comfortably here just the same. Pilots aren't the only ones leaving. Many doctors are too. And then you have those who return because other factors such as crime and lifestyle just didn't cut it somewhere else. Pitty that the allmighty dollar has forced you to make a decision and to each his own. Again I have to state that if you decide to leave that's great. But don't put down those who have decided to stay and are doing quite well. Comparing one with the other is pretty childish and serves absolutely no purpose other than to instigate confrontation. I guess arrogance is one of those fine qualities one acquires by going south.

[LEMD]

AAIGuy....

Isn't 120K CDN a bit optimistic? Your not on the -400 are you?

I thought "Classic" pay was more in the range of $132,000 CDN for a Captain (Available every day and no vacation) and $100,000 CDN for a F/O (Available every day and no vacation)

Should probably take away at least 10 - 20% of that as we all need a vacation now and then.

Correct me if I'm wrong. And don't forget about all the problems and lack of upgrades and most importantly... It's a contract with 2 weeks notice!

[AAIGUY]

$120,000 cdn is $97,000 K USD
or $8000 a month. This month I took home $8200. For August pay I will have some more OT and be close to $9000.

But I will agree in that it is between 100-120,000 depending on personal circumstance. Either is still more takehome than an AC widebody Capt.

As for upgrades I think AAI is actually pretty fair. There is another upgrade course on right now.

[LEMD]

I'm not saying it can't be done but as far as I'm concerned a 100+ hours a month isn't sustainable.

PS. Sorry for the treadjack!

[AAIGUY]

not 100.

89hrs (14 overtime) nets me around $8300 USD.

I think we agree though. There is a range of money any AAI pilot can make.

[5Y744]

AAI GUY.

Could you be more specific about the number of days worked per month to make you salary?

[AAIGUY]

This month I will fly 12 days and take home 7266 USD. I took a week off this month as well and spent it at home. CDN $ is 8800 ish tax free. 7 days at home, 11 days of at base, 12 days worked.

[brucelee]

AAIGUY.
Exuse my ignorance, but who is AAI?
Where do you fly?
What is the tax rate in that country?
What do you fly?
Sorry. Too lazy to look back at previous posts.
You are probably in the left seat I assume.

[AAIGUY]

Brucelee, no problem

B747.
Air Atlanta Icelandic -contracted to Virgin, Iberia, Lufthansa , Cathay, ect..
Tax rate 0%
I am a second year F.O.

Fly worldwide.

[744]

AAIGUY,

Be honest, AAI puts a 747 in the sand in Sharjah (UAE) every once in while. Why, because the Islandic Aviation Authority is just another banana republic rubber stamper. On top AAI maintenance is absolute minimum. Some reason why the industry is being ruined (not a level playing field). I am surprised other countries with proper authorities have not reacted yet.

Also I have it from 1st hand sources, some crew don't get home & see family up to 3 months at a time.

Also if you move back to Canada you have to pay taxes on your worldwide income unless it was taxed in a country which is not considered a tax haven.

So be an exile for life with your mucho $$$$, have no lifestyle (no life) and work on a slave ship. BUT don't sell it to others as PARADISE!

Happy Landings! ;)

[AAIGUY]

744,

you're on crack. There is not reason not to go home every month if you want to. Some guys work a month on and month off. If someone is greedy and wants to be paid for three months straight that is their deal. Pilots here are contractors and come and go as they please.

With regards to safety, there has been one incident of an aborted take off in Sharja that over ran on the reject. The aircraft in question was maintained by LUFTHANSA in Frankfurt.

Taxes are an annual thing. And yes it takes tax planning and a proper accountant. The same as you would need if you worked for CX or Emirates.

AAI is not the best thing going, its not even in the top 20. But it is a damn sight better than most things and I have never been happier. Nothing in Canada , with the possible exception of HMY, can compare.

and btw, I spent most of my paid days off in Thailand. Why would you not have lifestlye here. I go home every month and spend 8-10 days on vacation somewhere with in a few hrs of where I am based.. My life is a paid holiday.

[meaw]

AAI guy,


Why were you on the far east forum on the China Airlines thread.
Knowing CAL gives you only 8 days of per month wich is absolute crap by any standard, you were on there saying you would love to work there as 8 days off per month would be much better than where you are.

That sounds to me where you are is absolute s....t.
I doubt you are married, have kids or have much of a life.I also doubt you have been at this very long by how enamoured you sound at AAI, but let me tel you something I have learned over the years: pay is only a fraction of what makes a good job.
Days off, vacation, benefits, stability (i.e not contract to contract) ability to spend quality time with family are what count.Sure money is something but when you turn 60 and retire single,childless, no fixed adress and lonely......you will be the most miserable millionaire on the planet.

[744]

AAIGUY,

Don't get personal - too close to the truth?

You are happy in KUL - fine! My reply is for other readers to be careful about the wailing of the false siren! AAIGUY, wait another 5+ years and see how you will like it then...

Other pprune posts regarding AAI ....

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=57896&highlight=air+atlanta+incident

Signing Off, 744.

[brucelee]

AAIguy.
Thanks for the info on what you do. Now I understand why you make the coin you do. In reading previous threads, I got the impression you were flying RJ in Europe and making more than an AC widebody captain. Something didn't jive. Good for you for enjoying what you do. Just one thing, I'm willing to bet you will not retire at AAI. See, that's the point people are trying to make to you. You've chosen to live life out of a suitcase. It can't last forever.