Ukraine Crisis 2014

[Hangarshuffle]

Might as well start a thread, as its going to be the story of the year as far as murder, death and senseless killing go.
Am I correct that, in a nutshell the basis of the conflict is that the western half of the Ukraine wish to move towards a unification with the EU, whilst the eastern half is far more pro Russia and wishes to resist any split or movement towards a pro EU engagement?


Today 20th February 2014 what are the implications for the UK in any sort of involvement?


My 2 cents worth saloon bar guess is the country will dissolve into civil war and chaos if it hasn't already done so.
I truly pray we do not become involved in any way or form.

[Shack37]

There's a lot of pressure from Putin to force the Ukraine to stick with Russia.
I don't think we should doubt for a second he will help the eastern contingent in any way he sees fit if not already actively involved.

We should not even consider poking our nose in, even if the EU want to flex their muscles. It would be a proxy conflict with Russia.

[gr4techie]

From my point of view,
- The Ukrainian citizens want to be part of the EU.
- Their govt says no.
- Then Ukrainian citizens then stand up to their govt in protest.
- The govt then try to quash the citizens protests.

Implications for the UK? Isn't the Ukraine where we import most of our gas from? Like a crack addict needing their next fix, I could imagine UK politicians taking more interest if the gas supply is affected.

[awblain]

Much UK gas comes from Russia. Ukraine seeks the same supply and most pipelines run through Ukraine; however, now the UK has much more by way of liquid import facilities, it's not as crucial as it was.

The only angle for future gas supplies would be if the protestors take power, get upset and close the pipelines. The President and Russia are close. Complain too loudly and they could cut present supplies, but that's not as big a deal as it was ten years ago.

[ORAC]

It's been coming for months, it's not a surprise. We washed our hands of it months ago. Everything is now posturing.

Streetwise Professor has been monitoring. Here are a few of his blog posts, see his site for the full saga.

November 23rd: Ukraine & Russia. Sovok Players. Sovok Tactics. Sovok Results. No Surprises Here. (http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=7828)

January 31st: Ukraine: (Relative) Calm Before the Storm (http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=8045)

February 6th: Look Beyond the F-Bomb: An Ominous Harbinger of Things to Come in Ukraine. (http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=8070)

February 17th: Poor Ukraine: So Close to Putin, So Far From God (http://streetwiseprofessor.com/index.php?s=ukraine)

[Lonewolf_50]

I seem to recall that revolutions in Europe, the 1848 series, didn't go too well in the short term due to the reaction, but the low level ripple effects ended up catching up a bit of momentum later on.

Perhaps it will be thuswise for Ukraine.

Perhaps not.

[brickhistory]

Makes one reassess all the new NATO partners and commitments taken on since the end of the Cold War.

Lots of baggage to consider.

[Bastardeux]

We should not even consider poking our nose in

Hmm, I don't really see that as a feasible position; we could stand by and watch as a country that borders the European Union descends into mayhem and all the many, many implications that has on energy security, trade & investment, contagion (to Belarus?) etc. etc. But do you think any EU action to try and stop the opposition getting their clock's cleaned wouldn't involve us?...I certainly don't.

My big worry instead, is do we (Europe) still have the capacity to act effectively, without the aid of the United States?...it could all end very embarrassingly for Europe and very triumphantly for Putin, IMHO. I'm pretty certain one of the big lessons from the former Yugoslavia was that Europe needed to take more responsibility for its own defence capabilities. Even then we needed good ol' Uncle Sam, and our capabilities as a continent are far diminished from then!!

[NutLoose]

Why when I watch this on the news do I have visions of Nicolae Ceaușescu attempting to flee his country in a helicopter.
Shooting ones own people is never a good thing and will come back to haunt Viktor Yanukovych, even if he had no part in it.

[thing]

You would think that God would give us a break now and again. If it's not Syria it's Ukraine, if it's not Ukraine it's CAR. I wish we could have maybe a year of time out then get back on with it.

[NutLoose]

I'm not surprised though, they did this just too host a football competition

Neighborhood Cats / Archives (http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/article/NEWS_ARCHIVES/74)

Ukraine, the European Football Championship and the mass murders of stray animals - Occupy for Animals! (http://www.occupyforanimals.org/ukraine-the-european-football-championship-and-the-mass-murders-of-stray-animals.html)

[thing]

And in other news, 400 and odd Nepalese workers have already been killed building Qatar's World Cup stadiums.

[SASless]

Time for Europe to lead on this one.....might as well because Welfare Man shall be bringing up the rear as usual.

[ORAC]

Why when I watch this on the news do I have visions of Nicolae Ceaușescu attempting to flee his country in a helicopter. More reminiscent of Hungary 1956. (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956)

[Shack37]

My big worry instead, is do we (Europe) still have the capacity to act
effectively, without the aid of the United States?...it could all end very
embarrassingly for Europe and very triumphantly for Putin, IMHO. I'm pretty
certain one of the big lessons from the former Yugoslavia was that Europe needed
to take more responsibility for its own defence capabilities. Even then we
needed good ol' Uncle Sam, and our capabilities as a continent are far
diminished from then!!


That's exactly my point Bastardeaux, we (Europe) do not have that capacity. We would be heading into indirect, leading to direct, conflict with Russia. Without the support of the US, no chance. Putin does not strike me as someone to back down in the face of threats or (God forbid) sanctions. He's far too MACHO for that.

[Martin the Martian]

Seems like President Yanukovych has been thinking about Ceausescu as well.

BBC News - Ukrainian President Yanukovych agrees early election (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26289318)

[SASless]

Please don't invite us to this Party.....we have seen Putin's ability to outsmart Welfare Man by what happened in Syria....so no good use getting us involved.

[Whenurhappy]

In 2004 NATO and Ukraine were in very close negotiations over eventual membership. Then Russian Energy Coercion started. Russia has made it quite clear that it does not want a NATO member on their borders.

The Dead Hand of Russian Imperialism is all over this one; The EU relies very heavily on Ukrainian grain (as does Russia) indeed, much of their agrarian agriculture is Western owned. Being even closer to Europe is seen as a threat to Russia and in Moscow NATO and EU are regarded as synonymous.

So, what does the West do regarding the riots? Unless these develop into a widespread civil war, there is no direct role for the EU or NATO; however, if the Ukrainian army decides to defect to the protestors or refuses to support the Government, there is the possibility of Russian 'peacekeeping' intervention. Read: occupation. What does the West do then?

If a civil war does develop - and rioting has spread to other population centres - perhaps an EU sponsored Observer Mission could be proposed, backed up by the promise of PKO forces if conditions continue to deteriorate. Think Kosovo, June 1999. Imagine how different Balkans politics would be now if the Russian intervention at Pristina Airport had not be blocked, using, it seems, James Blunt and his squadron?

[Bevo]

Ukraine is a country divided. This has been brewing ever since the break-up of the Soviet Union and Ukrainian independence.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r209/TurboBob/ukraine-protests-map-k_zps4960b57b.jpg
You may be wondering, then, why there is such a consistent and deep divide between these two halves of Ukraine. Here's the really crucial thing to understand about Ukraine: A whole lot of the country speaks Russian, rather than Ukrainian. This map shows the country's linguistic divide, which you may notice lines up just about perfectly with its political divide.http://www.washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/01/24/this-is-the-one-map-you-need-to-understand-ukraines-crisis/)

Protests in Ukraine are not pro-EU (as it is written in most of international news agencies). The disruption of the association agreement with the European Union in November was only cause for local rallies. But after a peaceful student protest was violently dispersed by the 'Berkut' [special police] in Kyiv on Nov. 30, angry people took to the central square of the capital.

[dead_pan]

We would be heading into indirect, leading to direct, conflict with Russia.

I know western forces have been much diminished since the height of the Cold War, but Russia's have been even more so. Add the fact that there's a helluva lot more countries in NATO than there were then. Personally if it ever came to a fight I think it would be pretty one-sided. One can imagine the Russian forces defecting en-masse, now they know all about our way of life, many of them having tasted it.

[Shack37]

I know western forces have been much diminished since the height of the Cold War, but Russia's have been even more so. Add the fact that there's a helluva lot more countries in NATO than there were then. Personally if it ever came to a fight I think it would be pretty one-sided. One can imagine the Russian forces defecting en-masse, now they know all about our way of life, many of them having tasted it.


Are you saying NATO with the USA? Big assumption, as SASless says, they may not come to the party. Are you saying NATO or EU, not quite the same. As for Russian defectors, they might not find it too easy to jump the fence if the time comes.

[NutLoose]

Words fail me... Graphic

Ukraine - Government Snipers Shooting protesters in Kiev - YouTube

[MPN11]

BBC News implies resolution.

Signing agreements, new elections etc.

[Ronald Reagan]

Ron Paul: State Dept. Plotting Coup d'état Against Ukraine - YouTube (http://youtu.be/HvlSqiY7a4M)

[Stendec5]

No Harriers, no Nimrods, no Carriers, no Cluster Bombs. The British armed forces now barely visible to the naked eye. A political leadership willing to spend over £25,000,000,000 per year on "foreign aid" and the so called "EU", and a Prime Minister who regards "gay marriage" as more important that national defence.
Mr Putin must be pissing himself laughing at the prospect of that sanctimonious hypocritical ******-up has-been of a country "intervening".
GET REAL.

[dead_pan]

Well, we've still got a bigger GDP than Russia & their industrial base is shot - as Max Hastings once wrote, it couldn't even build a toaster you'd want to buy. In fact, pretty much all they are good for is weapons, natural gas, and vodka.

[ShotOne]

Not sure where your arguments heading, stendec. Are you seriously suggesting we ought to intervene militarily in Ukraine? With or without the aircraft you list, this would be a total disaster and also grabbed as a pretext to discredit the protestors as agents of foreign powers.

[awblain]

dead_pan,

Budem zdorovy!

Weapons, natural gas and vodka - it's rural appalachia on steroids.
But where's the meth?

[Ronald Reagan]

dead_pan, don't forget the Russian space programme. They are the only ones with manned launch capability. The Chinese have the ability but are new to the game. So for now Russia are the leaders of the world in the field of space exploration.


As for any talk of western military intervention, not a chance! The risks of World War 3 are to high.


I still think the logical thing here is to see a partition. Two new nations, ''Western Ukraine'' joining the EU and ''Eastern Ukraine'' going with Russia. It should keep the majority of Ukrainians happy with pro Russian east going east and the pro European west going west.

[Hangarshuffle]

Think Stendec is right to state the obvious, as a conventional fighting nation we are now down to nothing of credible worth. The UK military is no longer in any position to act in any real role abroad. Our EU allies even less so.
One of the only good things of the day is our own prime minister, defence minister et al have been entirely absent from making any comments or trying to wade in and sound statesmanlike.
Putin and the world he represents seems a very ugly, brutal, bullying cynical one and I hope this was noted by at least some of the UK population.

[Ronald Reagan]

Hangarshuffle, most of my Russian friends like Putin, they think he is great.
On the whole I don't see he or his government are any worse than ours, at the end of the day its the US, UK and now France also who tend to mostly go around the world invading and bombing places, toppling governments and regimes as we please. Plus with his KGB/FSB background he has got to be more switched on than most/all western politicians.


I agree with your points about the British military though, our politicians must be mad, they use the military more and more but at the same time have cut, cut and cut! I think the wars were mostly mistakes and have done no good and in many cases made things worse, but to send our military to war and to keep cutting it at the same time is total insanity!

[dead_pan]

Putin and the world he represents seems a very ugly, brutal, bullying cynical one and I hope this was noted by at least some of the UK population.

I think most of us are under no illusions with regard to Mr Putin.

They are the only ones with manned launch capability.

Indeed, and I know it pains many in NASA and ESA that we have to rely on them. Roll on the likes of Orion.

[racedo]

So will UK and US Govts will be supporting those who wish to secede part of their country into another country............

Interesting one vis a vis Scotland.

[Ronald Reagan]

Yes best to let the Scottish have the freedom they deserve.
I have also read about movements in the USA who want various states to leave the US government. I think Texas was one who felt they had a good economic case for withdrawing. I could imagine Washington DC just loving that!

[NutLoose]

One would imagine
Putin is just awaiting the end of the Olympics, and despite all the bluster and political showboating, it will be Georgia 2.

[Shack37]

From the D. Telegraph


Where was Britain as Ukraine burned? - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10655230/Where-was-Britain-as-Ukraine-burned.html)

[awblain]

The Telegraph appears to have been awarded the OBE since its print run.

Has brave Sir Yanukovych really read the writing on the wall, written in various languages?

Then again, bearing post-Christmas-shootings Romania in mind, there was more of a palace coup with good stage management with plausible but irrelevant taxi drivers booked to go on the teevee.

[Ronald Reagan]

Huge Split: Eastern Ukraine rises against Kiev - YouTube (http://youtu.be/y_V3MugVYQc)


http://rt.com/news/thousands-gather-eastern-ukraine-252/


Southeast seeks to restore constitutional order, thousands gather in Kharkov
Published time: February 22, 2014 11:21
Edited time: February 22, 2014 12:55


The public gathering of deputies from local councils of southeastern Ukraine have declared they are taking responsibility for constitutional order in the country, as thousands of people have assembled in the city of Kharkov.
Follow RT's LIVE UPDATES (http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-kharkov-gathering-261/)
“We, the local authorities of all levels, the Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, Sevastopol region decided to take responsibility for ensuring the constitutional order and the rights of citizens on their territory,” their resolution said.
The Kharkov public gathering has announced a number of measures local authorities should take in response to the developments in Kiev. They should take full responsibility for all decision in respective regions with no regard to authorities in Kiev until the constitutional order in Ukraine is restored, a resolution of the gathering says.
They authorities should take measures to protect arms depots and prevent their take-over and looting by radical opposition activists.
The deputies have criticized the decision adopted by the Parliament (Verkhovna Rada) in the last few days, saying they are raising doubts about its legitimacy.
The gathering says the legislative acts may have been passed involuntary and are neither legitimate nor lawful.
The resent decisions of the national parliament were taken in conditions “of terror, threats of violence and death,” the resolution says.
Meanwhile, citizens are encouraged to form local militias to protect public order. Local authorities are to fund and support those militias.
Over 10, 000 people have gathered at the city’s Sport Palace, where a total of 3,477 deputies have been holding a meeting.
The situation remains generally quiet with the crowd being partly in good spirits and partly subdued and concerned, Itar-Tass news agency reports from the Palace.
“3, 477 deputies from local councils in southeastern Ukraine have gathered. We have gathered here not to separate the country, but to save it,” the regional governor, Mikhail Dobkin, told the crowd.
The head of the Kharkov administration, Gennady Kernes, has called the public gathering “an attempt by qualified deputies from the east of the country to stabilize the situation.”
"My colleagues and I have been personally threatened. But today we have gathered to change the situation,” he said. “We will not give in; we will fight till the end.”
The statement has been echoed by Rada’s Party of Regions deputy, Vadim Kolesnichenko, who also said that politicians are being threatened and “their families are basically hostages [of the situation].”
Russia sent several officials in the capacity of observers to the gathering, including Aleksey Pushkov, the head of Russian parliamentary commission on foreign affairs, Mikhail Markelov, Pushkov’s counterpart in the Council of Federation, the upper chamber of the parliament, and several governors from regions in eastern Russia.
“The decisions taken here are positive and concrete. What is important is that everything voiced here was implemented in the interests of the Ukrainian people and the entire Ukraine. What Ukraine needs now is common sense and a survival instinct,” said Evgeny Savchenko, Governor of Russia’s Belgorod region, which borders Ukraine, commenting on the Kharkov gathering.

[NutLoose]

They have impeached the President of the Ukraine and is on the move and has fled the capital, the police have signed up to the caretaker parliament and have gone back to the 2004 constitution, the defence minister has legged it to the Crimea. The police have pulled out of the centre and the protesters now hold control of all the buildings.

[Heathrow Harry]

yes he's headed east and is claiming a coup is underway

No doubt on Monday (after the Olympics closes) he'll ask for "fraternal assistance" - think Hungary, E Germany, Poland and Czecho here............

and just liek those cases we can't or won't do anything

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

It seems all armed forces (deliberate lack of capital letters) in Ukraine have now refused to fire on civilians, so the Prez has done a runner. Good to see.

[Onceapilot]

Maybe not good news F3 monkey? The establishment of a coup scenario could be an excuse for outside military intervention. :sad:

OAP

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Not till Sochi's over!
I think this Revolution will get sorted without 'outside help'

[Shack37]

Not till Sochi's over! I think this Revolution will get sorted without
'outside help'


I don't think Mr. P considers himself to be an "outsider" and he may not worry too much about "real" outsiders. I hope I'm wrong.

[Hangarshuffle]

Ronald R,
Yes I concede that many Russians must love Putin and I think I could see why - who else but a tough nut to stand up and govern a vast nation of tough nuts? It worries me what could have happened here over Ukraine if our much less world-wise leaders has fronted him up over the recent days events.
But as it happens our own leaders of the free world seem to have disappeared - perhaps that was deliberate, what with the way things seem tonight to be working out?
And yes I am thoroughly ashamed of some of the UKs civilian and military leaders in the reasoning behind the invasions and subsequent failure within Iraq.
Will Putin prove to be the enduring world leader of our times?

[Stendec5]

Mr P, is the real-deal. Western "leaders" are a sick, sad, pathetic joke. One reason why.
Once we had a Theodore Roosevelt, an Iron Duke, a Churchill. What have we got now? The West is putrid to its core.
Time for new leaders to arise.

[racedo]

Mr P, is the real-deal. Western "leaders" are a sick, sad, pathetic joke. One reason why.
Once we had a Theodore Roosevelt, an Iron Duke, a Churchill. What have we got now? The West is putrid to its core.
Time for new leaders to arise.

He has a clear message, easily understood............Russians of my acquaintance even those who hate him say he has engendered confidence in the nation. After the flunkies of Yeltsin they welcome it because he is proud to be Russian.

[NutLoose]

Lol, name one in the UK that would fit the bill,

Call me Dave and his spineless lackey Clegg,
the dopey Miliband brothers and their cohort noBalls,
And let's not forget William Vague, mister none personality


I think well pass.

[Shack37]

Now that the ex leader seems to have done a runner and things should be calming down the local civilian population of both persuasions are starting to confront each other on the streets. It may not be over yet.

[NutLoose]

Nice to see the house and the palace haven't been looted, they are simply doing visits to them to have a looksie, oh and play a round of golf on his course using his clubs.

Ukrainians explore bizarre luxury at deserted presidential palace (http://news.uk.msn.com/in-pictures/ukrainians-explore-bizarre-luxury-at-deserted-presidential-palace293848#image=1)

But unlike recent overthrowings of power, Yanukovych's palace was not torn apart. Instead, a makeshift sign urged visitors not to destroy "this evidence of thieving arrogance".



:E

[Hangarshuffle]

Seems far from over. But the winter Olympics are. Wonder what will happen when the foreign skiers are all clear of the host country?


All my entire knowledge, such as it isn't comes from the TV news and the picture that seems to give is one of a parliament struggling to give the dis-satisfied masses mostly what they want.


A worst case scenario would be what, a breakout of fighting between the rival factions followed by a military invasion from the east for "peacekeeping" reasons?
Would he dare?

[NutLoose]

All my entire knowledge, such as it isn't comes from the TV news and the picture that seems to give is one of a parliament struggling to give the dis-satisfied masses mostly what they want.

But it isn't really is it, it's a few high profile protesters on the news in a huge country where the majority are not rioting.

[GreenKnight121]

A worst case scenario would be what, a breakout of fighting between the rival factions followed by a military invasion from the east for "peacekeeping" reasons?
Would he dare?

Yes, he would.

Soviet collapse a 'tragedy,' Putin says - World news | NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7632057/ns/world_news/t/putin-soviet-collapse-genuine-tragedy/)
4/25/2005
Russian President Vladimir Putin told the nation Monday that the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century” and had fostered separatist movements inside Russia. In his annual state of the nation address to parliament and the country’s top political leaders, Putin said the Soviet collapse also was a tragedy for Russians.

“First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said. “As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory.
The part of Ukraine that is pro-Russia, and supports Yanukovych, is the ethnic-Russian and Russian-speaking south-east.

Putin certainly considers those Ukrainians to be Russians, and would prefer to bring at least that part back into Russia.

[awblain]

If they're ethnically Russian and Russian-speaking, it's perfectly reasonable for them to be Russian. Self-determination is a fairly well-established principle, although it can easily degenerate into "ethnic cleansing" in the wrong hands. The historical borders of the FIS were perhaps not laid out in the most polite or rational way.

[ORAC]

Not to mention Crimea and the Black Sea fleet.

[Heathrow Harry]

President missing but "near" the Russian border

Claims revolutionaries and hooligans have taken over the state

Ambassador recalled to Moscow

This is a classic build-up to a military intervention

[dead_pan]

Unfortunately Putin will not walk away from what is in effect a direct challenge to his authority and status. Is part of the reason the US and others are warning him off military intervention is because they're seeing movements near the border?

[Dave Sharpe]

Several have mentioned the possible events after the Winter Olympics--a few of my very well educated Friends in Kiev have expressed the same concerns--everyday normality had come to an end for many people---many of them tell me that you cant use the words ---normal and Ukraine together!!!

[Ronald Reagan]

In my opinion the Russians would likely be within in their rights to launch a peacekeeping mission into the east of Ukraine to protect the Russian minority living there.

[dead_pan]

Protect them from whom? Nobody's made any threats against them.

[melmothtw]

In my opinion the Russians would likely be within in their rights to launch a
peacekeeping mission into the east of Ukraine to protect the Russian minority
living there.


In your opinion, were the Germans within their rights to launch a peacekeeping mission into the Sudentenland to protect the German minority living there?

[Ronald Reagan]

I have seen reports on RT of attacks between pro Kiev and anti Kiev protestors in the east. Also people in the east fear that they may end up with protestors from Kiev coming there. This was on RT.
There is also talking of Russian being banned as the official second language and also talking of banning both the party of regions and the communist party.


Its nothing like Germany back then melmothtw, back then Germany was an expansionist empire! Russia these days is not an expansionist empire and simply trying to control what it already has and to protect Russian people. If anything its the west who are expansionist! The EU constantly trying to add new members even though they cannot manage what they have now! Plus the USA attempting to remove governments and regimes who refuse to obey them and replace them with something that will!

[melmothtw]

Not surprised you should think that Ronald, if you're getting your news from RT. About as impartial and apolitical as Fox.

Yep, if there's one thing that the 2008 'intervention' in Georgia (the country, not the state) taught me it's that Russia (read; Putin) is not expansionist.

As the saying goes, 'Russia without Ukraine is a country. Russia with Ukraine is an empire.'

[dead_pan]

To be fair on RT, this morning there was barely a mention about Ukraine in their main news report. I think Putin must have gone into a massive sulk - "bl**dy Ukrainians, spoiling my $50bn Olympics extravaganza"

[melmothtw]

The only Russian news source that has any credibility in my view is RIA Novosti, as demonstrated by the fact that Putin is having them shutdown.

[Ronald Reagan]

RT isn't so bad. Its certainly the best media channel letting us know what is really going on. Western media though seems to just follow the party line.
I want to know what is really going on out there. Chinese and Indian news media can also be good for that.

[dead_pan]

Come on Ronnie, its laughably & lamentably bad when towing your party's line, even to a dispassionate observer. I bet even you must cringe at some of the guff they come out with.

[melmothtw]

That's just too funny. I'm not naive enough to suppose that Western media is totally unbiased and neutral, but RT is on another level. The best way to know what's going on in a particular story that RT is reporting is to start from the standpoint that the facts are the opposite of what RT is saying they are. It's not an anti-Russian thing - I think the same is true of Fox News.

[NutLoose]

Well my vision came true...

CCTV purports to show Yanukovich escaping in helicopter on MSN Video (http://video.uk.msn.com/watch/video/cctv-purports-to-show-yanukovich-escaping-in-helicopter/2g126jal?from=gallery_en-gb&sf=Relevancy#7)

now all i need is to see the lottery numbers :ok:

But never fear Smeagol is warning the Russsian off about taking advantage and moving in

Hague talks to Russians on Ukraine (http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/hague-talks-to-russians-on-ukraine-2)

One wonders if they are quaking in their boots or laughing their socks off?

[racedo]

A portrait of Ukraine's 'saviour' Yulia Tymoshenko by EDWARD LUCAS | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2566299/Dont-fooled-angelic-looks-shes-ruthless-shes-corrupt-A-withering-portrait-Ukraines-saviour-EDWARD-LUCAS-Russia-expert-knows-well.html)

Their saviour, then again the Ukrainian people didn't wish the Billionaire to be their president.

[Lonewolf_50]

LR:
In my opinion the Russians would likely be within in their rights to launch a peacekeeping mission into the east of Ukraine to protect the Russian minority living there. They'd be better of getting to lead a UN op, if any op is even needed, but I don't think Vlad would be that patient. The deal not too long ago in re Georgia is instructive.
Mel:
In your opinion, were the Germans within their rights to launch a peacekeeping mission into the Sudentenland to protect the German minority living there?
Were the Turks within their rights in Cyprus?

Your Godwin move is both noted, and not respected.

[melmothtw]

Were the Turks within their rights in Cyprus?


Under international law? No.

[ex_matelot]

RT gives an interesting insight into alternative views of worldwide current affairs. The BBC can hardly be held as a credible alternative. If the BBC had had their way we would be currently planning an exit strategy from an Al-Qaida-led Syria around now.
The BBC, and indeed Western governments appear to hold very selective views on what constitutes democracy and when it can be sidelined.

[Ronald Reagan]

Very well said ex_matelot, agree with you totally.

[melmothtw]

And yet around the world it is the BBC that people turn to when they want to find out what is actually going on, not what their governments (or their mouthpieces, such as RT) are telling them is going on.

[ex_matelot]

And yet around the world it is the BBC that people turn to when they want to find out what is actually going on, not what their governments (or their mouthpieces, such as RT) are telling them is going on.

I reject that assertion. I submit to you the BBC's silence and avoidance on Harriet Harman & Co supporting the rights of paedophiles to sleep with children that has just come to light. Even the Guardian is demanding answers.

The BBC is a self-licking lollipop and the 'higher ups' appear to be all of a certain political bent. This has even been previously acknowledged by their own director general regarding reports of their bias.

Google is your friend.

[t43562]

I certainly used the BBC for a trustworthy viewpoint when I was in Zimbabwe. I think they do have some rather soppy left wing biases which I could adjust for but they also had an actual respect for the truth which was a lot more than was available locally. I'm surprised by human nature - that so many people seem to respect the people who hang on to power uncompromisingly rather than the ones who make their play and then give it up. My personal impression is that there are plenty of people who like the idea of being henchmen and regret that they don't have anyone bad enough to hench for.

[500N]

mel

only the information that the BBC want you to know.

the BBC is a censor as they choose what gets broadcast - as shown by the 3 labor people where they are very quiet - see the Jimmy Saville thread. it was even noted that the bbd was mute.

[melmothtw]

Google is my friend:

Mark Thompson: BBC news vital to UK's overseas image | Media | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/may/11/mark-thompson-bbc-image)

The BBC continues to enjoy a level of trust from audiences across the world which is unique among international news-providers

Anyhow, think we're getting a bit off topic here. My original point was that if folks rely on RT to shape their opinions of the events in Ukraine, then it comes as no surprise that they should be backing Russian intervention.

[melmothtw]

mel

only the information that the BBC want you to know.

the
BBC is a censor as they choose what gets broadcast - as shown by the 3 labor
people where they are very quiet - see the Jimmy Saville thread. it was even
noted that the bbd was mute.


500N, as I said earlier..

I'm not naive enough to suppose that Western media is totally unbiased and neutral, but RT is on another level.

[Lonewolf_50]

Under international law? No.
But that didn't stop the Turks, and they had to cross the water.
International Law is only as good as its enforcement and acceptance. I'd say you may be putting too much faith in it. With the EU as his patsy, I doubt Vlad cares too much about international law, where his country's interests are at stake.

[ex_matelot]

Mel - Nobody is accusing the BBC of "lying" as such. It's just that they have a well documented history of avoiding certain issues or disproportionate pressing of other issues, according to political mantra.
The BBC 24 newsfeed and indeed Question time is clear evidence of this.

It cannot be denied - they have even admitted it themselves.

Anyone here served on ops with a BBC embed? They have their own opinion and create the story to support that. In my experience.

[melmothtw]

My points are more about RT than the BBC. As Ronald pointed out, it is RT that is raising the spectre of Russian military intervention to protect the Russian (speaking) minority.

Seeing as the BBC has come into this, whatever your thoughts on the organisation (notwithstanding personal experiences on ops with individual journalists), I stand by my assertion that most people around the world would trust the BBC in a way they wouldn't RT (or Fox News, or whoever).

I agree Lonewolf, I wouldn't think that international law would make Putin pause for a second.

[ex_matelot]

RT tends to tell it how the BBC avoids telling it. When opinions on RT and Al-Jazeera appear to align, with the BBC saying otherwise or avoiding then..it's very telling.

I take my current affairs from various sources - even the Daily Mail!. I have to say - I find non of the most remotely impartial sources are English.

The BBC has decreed that the Ukraine was under a dictatorship and the released former prime minister is heaven sent. All opposition to her will now be labelled accordingly and the in exile prime minister will be labelled a tyrant.

Lots will be carefully ignored.

[melmothtw]

The Dail Mail?? Jeez ex_matelot, the point of an argument is to make your position more credible!

The BBC has decreed that the Ukraine was under a dictatorship and the released former prime minister is heaven sent. All opposition to her will now be labelled accordingly and the in exile prime minister will be labelled a tyrant

No BBC (or any other Western news outlet) report that I have been watching has presented the situation in Ukraine in such cleat cut black and white terms as those. That's just you ex.

[ex_matelot]

No, that's how you interpret it, and indeed I.Maybe we are both indoctrinated to our sources of media?

Like I have said though, I utilise many, Mainly BBC, Al Jaz, RT and a selection of German newspapers with which I practice my learning of the language.

[melmothtw]

ex-matelot,

You said earlier that Google is your friend. I challenge you to find one single instance where the BBC has decreed that the Ukraine was under a dictatorship - just one.

[Ronald Reagan]

I would never trust the BBC. In my opinion I regard it as pro London propaganda, as simple as that. It would be one of the last places I would trust for good quality media coverage of a situation. I do watch it sometimes to see the '' UK establishment'' position, trying to telling us what we should think, it gives me a good laugh!

[Ronald Reagan]

Gorbachev: Bulldoze EU & US aides from Ukraine and let the people decide - YouTube (http://youtu.be/i5rgxzCxYCs)


US supports Ukraine turmoil though media blame Putin for chaos - YouTube (http://youtu.be/jxBlFFqfCOc)

[melmothtw]

When the BBC is attacked for anti-US bias - Blair attacks BBC for 'anti-US bias' | Politics | The Observer (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/sep/18/uk.usa)

Anti-UK bias - anti British - Biased BBC (http://biasedbbc.org/blog/category/anti-british/)

and now anti- rest of the world bias -



I would never trust the BBC. In my opinion I regard it as pro London
propaganda, as simple as that. It would be one of the last places I would trust for good quality media coverage of a situation. I do watch it sometimes to see the '' UK establishment'' position, trying to telling us what we should think, it gives me a good laugh!


I would suggest that they've probably got the balance about right.

PS; Still waiting on that BBC reference to Ukrainian dictatorship...

[ex_matelot]

Hone your google skills - ample examples on there, and also of BBC correspondants "Tweeting and re-tweeting" - 'A dictator has fallen'.

You are trying to defend an organisation that has already admitted to its shortcomings.
Good luck with that. Are you blinkered, blind or just obtuse?

[melmothtw]

"A dictatorship has fallen," says #Ukraine (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Ukraine&src=hash)'s ex-PM Yulia Tymoshenko, after release from jail http://bbc.in/1l8TyCN (http://bbc.in/1l8TyCN) #Тимошенко (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23%D0%A2%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BA %D0%BE&src=hash)


Is NOT the BBC decreeing that Ukraine is under a dictatorship. It is reporting the words of the freed former prime minister, as you very well know.

You have accused the BBC of manipulating facts to support its agenda, which is precisely what you have just done. I hope the irony is not lost on you ex_matelot.



blinkered, blind or just obtuse


I would suggest all of the above in your case.

[awblain]

If St Anthony attacks Anything, it's a hearty vote of confidence in Anything.

[ex_matelot]

Is NOT the BBC decreeing that Ukraine is under a dictatorship. It is reporting the words of the freed former prime minister, as you very well know.

You need to google further Jedi. In any case, should a fine upstanding organisation such as the BBC be perpetuating certain opinions without analysis or comment?

The BBC has already admitted it has political bias. That is not up for question. If you seek to deny what they have already accepted then good luck with that.

[melmothtw]

You need to google further Jedi.


Send a link...any link.

No one said the BBC was perfect, but I'd sooner trust a news organisation that admits its failings than one that doesn't.

Now, whenever you're ready with that link.

[ex_matelot]

Find it yourself - there are plenty out there, and whilst you are at it - find an example of the BBC being impartial on the matter, as opposed to automatically supporting the "protestors".

The BBC uses 2 main tactics... promoting a cause or completely blanking something. Are you able to explain why the BBC has thus far ignored the wideley publicised previous support of paedophile groups by Harman & Co? Even though fellow left-wing media outlets such as the Guardian have found it simply cannot be ignored or apologised for?

Why is your trusted news outlet the only one to be quiet on that matter?

[melmothtw]

Find it yourself - there are plenty out there,

No, there are none.


whilst you are at it - find an example of the BBC being impartial on the
matter, as opposed to automatically supporting the "protestors".


Will this one do?

BBC News - Ukraine, as viewed from Moscow (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26293446)

Are you able to explain why the BBC has thus far ignored the wideley publicised
previous support of paedophile groups by Harman & Co?

Not that it has anything to do with Ukraine, but this story was feaured on the BBC's 6 o'clock news, tonight.

BBC News - Harriet Harman condemns paper's 'smear campaign' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26320942)

Why is your trusted news outlet the only one to be quiet on that matter?


See the link above.

Now, either send through a link showing that the BBC has decreed that Ukraine was a dictatorship, or just shut up on the matter.

[racedo]

RT gives an interesting insight into alternative views of worldwide current affairs. The BBC can hardly be held as a credible alternative. If the BBC had had their way we would be currently planning an exit strategy from an Al-Qaida-led Syria around now.
The BBC, and indeed Western governments appear to hold very selective views on what constitutes democracy and when it can be sidelined.

Starts to feel weird when you realise Russia has been acting rationally v Syria where as US/UK/France have been acting as Saudi/Qatars bitch.

[racedo]

And yet around the world it is the BBC that people turn to when they want to find out what is actually going on, not what their governments (or their mouthpieces, such as RT) are telling them is going on.

BBC Worldservice is funded by UK Foreign Office......................hmmmmmm

[melmothtw]

From this year funded by TV licence fee, hmmmmm indeed. And nothing more rationale than supporting a dictator murdering thousands of his own citizens.

[Hangarshuffle]

I am prepared to be corrected, but within living memory....
1939 v Poland.
1940 v Finland.
(Quite a few countries twixt 1940 and 1945 but in defence)
1945 v Japan.
1956 v Hungary.
1968 v Czechoslovakia.
1979 v Afghanistan.
1981 v Poland (?) or did I dream it?
1995 v somewhere ****e involving Chencyens? Or someone? Some loser country?
1999 v Kosova or was it almost NATO in Serbia or did I dream it? Something happened, I was almost involved as I have a medal but cant remember much ...
Also v. China sometime between here and Mao?
Georgia is on my mind as well for some reason. Who have I left out?


Gets a bit blurry. Sure Pruners have millions of tonnes of info and stories.
I will happily bet anyone on here a Marks and Spencer's Christmas Pudding (small size) the Russians do something in the months ahead.


Perhaps the question is..what will we do?

[NutLoose]

Is that the Classic Christmas Pudding, or the Sugar Plum Christmas Pudding?

[racedo]

Perhaps the question is..what will we do? British have invaded nine out of ten countries - so look out Luxembourg - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html)

UK has only 22 countries it has not YET invaded.

US since WW2 has bombed

China 1945-46
Korea 1950-53
China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Belgian Congo 1964
Guatemala 1964
Dominican Republic 1965-66
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Lebanon 1982-84
Grenada 1983-84
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1981-92
Nicaragua 1981-90
Iran 1987-88
Libya 1989
Panama 1989-90

Iraq 1991
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1992-94

Bosnia 1995
Iran 1998
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia – Serbia 1999
Afghanistan 2001
Libya 2011


Think they missing Yemen and Pakistan plus a few others.

US hasn't bombed Canada YET.

[West Coast]

They all had it comin to 'em.

[Hangarshuffle]

Frightening list of the USAs recent hit list. No one is whiter than white. I mean Peru? WTF?!
Our recent UK record is well documented and is...challenging to defend sometimes. Was it all necessary?


Here Russians are getting upset about the flattening of their war memorials in UKR, always an emotive thing.
Monument to soldiers who died liberating Ukraine from Nazis toppled (PHOTOS) ? RT News (http://rt.com/news/war-monument-toppled-ukraine-351/)


How much notice would the west have of an imminent invasion if it came? How soon before our western media twigged something was about to happen?
I would have guessed its impossible to keep something like that a secret in this day and age (at least with land forces).
Strangely or not the FTSE finished a few points up today, so perhaps the harder faced people in the money markets mustn't be too freaked by it all. Perhaps nothing will happen at all.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The US bombs Canadian Forces regularly, but only when they are abroad - probably something to do with the White House being razed the last time they attacked Canada directly.

[racedo]

Ukranians Nationalist in the West slaughtered up to 300,000 Poles in WW2...........Organisation of Ukranian nationalists / Ukranian Insurgency Army.

Nice people..............not

[racedo]

They all had it comin to 'em.

And when someone says that about 9/11 ?
Would you think it laughable as well ?

[GreenKnight121]

Hangarshuffle - Peru was in co-operation with the Peruvian government, and against drug production sites (that were also funding the Shining Path maoist revolutionaries).

Lists like those tend to be compiled by those trying to degrade the target of the lists, and to be only loosely connected with reality.

[West Coast]

Racedo

Can I get you a tissue?

[500N]

"Think they missing Yemen and Pakistan plus a few others."

They have done both of those as well.

[strake]

Ukranians Nationalist in the West slaughtered up to 300,000 Poles in WW2...........Organisation of Ukranian nationalists / Ukranian Insurgency Army.

Nice people..............not



Mr and Mrs Gharkavy who live next door to us are from the Ukraine. I don't believe they've slaughtered anyone but maybe we should be careful.

Or were you indulging in a generalisation which, depending on your viewpoint, could be applied to every militarily powerful nation in the world (including ours) over the past 70 or so years?

[melmothtw]

Well said strake.

[dead_pan]

How much notice would the west have of an imminent invasion if it came? How soon before our western media twigged something was about to happen?

There seems to be quite a few journos in the east of the country who may pick up a vibe that something is afoot. Not sure if there are any over the border in Russia. Of course they could be tipped off by our intelligence services that Russia was going to make a move.

Strangely or not the FTSE finished a few points up today, so perhaps the harder faced people in the money markets mustn't be too freaked by it all. Perhaps nothing will happen at all.

Down half a percent so far this AM - not sure if in response to Lavrov press conference or something else. I read over the weekend that there's a fair amount of western (primarily German) investment in Ukraine in their agricultural and industrial sector. Big potential fall-out if these get impeded/damaged or sequestered.

What I would like to know is what has happened to all those security forces and troops which were out and about up until last week. Have they all done a runner or are they confined to barracks? Also, whose keeping a watch on the armouries? Someone already appears to have got their hands on a BRDM, according to Sky this AM. Surely this must factor into any potential Russian move - the last thing they want is for every man and their dog to get their hands on an AK and RPG. Would make Chechnya look like a tea party.

[awblain]

It's an unusual Federation of Independent States that starts shooting at each other, but then there is Georgia I guess.

[Ronald Reagan]

Ukraine: Sevastopol installs pro-Russian mayor as separatism fears grow | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/25/ukraine-sevastopol-installs-pro-russian-mayor)


Russian Citizen Elected Sevastopol Mayor Amid Pro-Moscow Protests in Crimea | News | The Moscow Times (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-citizen-elected-sevastopol-mayor-amid-pro-moscow-protests-in-crimea/495113.html)


Ukraine crisis fuels secession calls in pro-Russian south | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-secession-russian-crimea)


Crimea, Russian Stronghold in Ukraine, Is Ready to Fight Revolution | TIME.com (http://world.time.com/2014/02/23/the-russian-stronghold-in-ukraine-preparing-to-fight-the-revolution/)

[Hangarshuffle]

The Daily Mail is on scene.
New Ukraine leader pleads for unity as protesters in Crimea shout 'Russia, Russia' and experts say Moscow might ANNEX territory to protect its naval bases | Mail Online (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-2567060/Is-Russia-plotting-send-army-annex-Crimea-Former-Kremlin-adviser-warns-Ukrainian-port-Sebastopol-targeted-week.html)

[Lonewolf_50]

racedo: Damn, maybe we need to add Ukraine to our "must have bombed at some point in the future" list. Mustn't be sloppy, eh? I am sure they'd hate to feel left out.

China 1945-46
Korea 1950-53
China 1950-53
Obviously, didn't bomb them enough. :p

Guatemala 1954 (Please explain what you meant by this).
Indonesia 1958 (Please explain what you meant by this).

Cuba 1959-60 (Please explain in detail what you mean by this).
Guatemala 1960 (Please explain in detail what you mean by this).
Belgian Congo 1964 (Please explain in detail what you mean by this).
Guatemala 1964 (Please explain in detail what you mean by this).
Dominican Republic 1965-66 (Obviously, didn't bomb them enough either).
Peru 1965 (Please explain in detail what you mean by this).
Laos 1964-73 (Obviously, didn't bomb them enough either).
Vietnam 1961-73 (Again, didn't bomb them enough)
Cambodia 1969-70 (Likewise)
Guatemala 1967-69 (Please explain in detail what you mean by this).
Lebanon 1982-84 (Obviously, didn't bomb that lot nearly enough)
Grenada 1983-84 (Bombed the Cubans there just enough, it seems)
Libya 1986 (Obviously, didn't bomb that lot nearly enough)
El Salvador 1981-92 (Explain what you mean by that, in detail, of you please)
Nicaragua 1981-90 (Explain what you mean by that, in detail, of you please)
Iran 1987-88 (Yep, took out the oil rigs. "Bombed Iran" is not a term I'd use if I spoke the English language, but YMMV).

Libya 1989 (Really? I seem to recall shooting down aircraft. What bombing mission are you referring to? Details, if you please)
Panama 1989-90 (Bombed them just enough, if at all, and well done! )
Iraq 1991 (Possibly overbombed)
Kuwait 1991 (They bombed the Iraqis in Kuwait, thanks for playing)
Somalia 1992-94 (Obviously, didn't bomb any of them nearly enough. Please spell out what you mean by "bombed" as in "what aircraft bombed where in Somalia". Thanks in advance).

Note: your use of the term "bombed" is an interesting use of the English language.

Bosnia 1995 (Obviously, not nearly enough)
Iran 1998 (Prove that, if you please. Details.) Did you mean IRAQ, FFS?
Sudan 1998 (Obviously, not enough)
Afghanistan 1998 (For damned sure not enough)
Yugoslavia – Serbia 1999 (That one always puzzled me, and we have to thank Bill Clinton for not tellling the French "If you are so eager to bomb Serbia, go bomb them yourselves." Slightly overbombed, I'd say).
Afghanistan 2001 (Not nearly enough, obviously)
Libya 2011 (Pointless, once again helping our French friends) )

YOUR FORGOT IRAQ 2003-2010! Racedo, you are slipping. :eek:

It seems a pity that we have yet to bomb Darkest Surrey. :p
Would you like to schedule an appointment, so you can join the ranks of those wonderful folks so horribly abused by Uncle Sam? :p
And when someone says that about 9/11 ?
Would you think it laughable as well ?
That's a pretty stupid question, racedo. The folk who feel "US had it coming" on 9-11 are the usual apologists for Al Queda and various terrorists.
West Coast is obviously not one of them.
You?

[melmothtw]

In the spirit of compiling pointless lists, can I throw Australia into the mix of countries the US has bombed?

US Harrier jets drop bombs on Australia's Great Barrier Reef | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2013/07/21/us-harrier-jets-drop-four-bombs-on-the-great-barrier-reef-in-australia-3891793/)

[Lonewolf_50]

I'll bet that showed a few sharks who not to mess with. :p

[racedo]

That's a pretty stupid question, racedo. The folk who feel "US had it coming" on 9-11 are the usual apologists for Al Queda and various terrorists.
West Coast is obviously not one of them.
You?

Its an old list copied from elsewhere and was in response to the one claiming what Russia had done.......pales a lit bit into insignificance when people blame Russia for stuff when one's own country list is quiet extensive.

Lists from UK and France are similarly extensive.

As for "they deserve it"...................did the countries bombed deserve it ?
Guess depends on which side of the fence one sits on..............me its a No and No but some people seem happy that any country can be bombed at will.

[West Coast]

"but some people seem happy that any country can be bombed at will"

Air power proponents, strategic planners, Northrop?

[racedo]

West

You left out the obvious, Politicians who get funding from "strange" bank accounts and not talking ones that are outside the US either.

[Hangarshuffle]

Wasn't my intention to try and bring any blame, justification or anything else about that list I put up earlier about Russia. If anything I was only musing to myself that every so many years, when it fits them, they can tend to go milling in. The worrying question may be if it suits them to now? We haven't set a good example to the world - we've gone blasting and bullying in both barrels (er, one barrel actually) when it suited us. I just hope and pray that if Russia takes action and invades the Ukraine, we are not involved in any single way. (Should we actually give up our seat as a permanent member of the UN security council now? Because we cant do anything, the world has tumbled this lately).

[racedo]

Wasn't my intention to try and bring any blame, justification or anything else about that list I put up earlier about Russia.

I understood what you were trying to do and added in the comparison of the main protagonists shouting loudly in the media.
Copmarison is stark.

[Canadian Break]

Bombed - as in Op El Dorado? I guess you had to be involved!

[Bastardeux]

Back onto topic...an interesting perspective on things here, in Forbes magazine:

Why Is Nobody Saying The Obvious: Putin Destabilized Ukraine - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/melikkaylan/2014/01/23/go-ahead-say-it-putin-destabiliized-ukraine/)

Some of it seems a little tin-hatish, but seemingly reputable sources behind it!

[Hangarshuffle]

Nobody truly understands either Russia or even less Putin, unless you are a Russian.

[NutLoose]

It still amazes me how he rewrote the Russian constitution to remain in power after his terms were done, could you imagine them trying to get that through in the USA.

[Bastardeux]

Nobody truly understands either Russia or even less Putin, unless you are a Russian.

It's not North Korea. And it's no secret that Russia has an inferiority complex over the ever-encroaching NATO presence in countries that used to be firmly in its sphere of influence.

[GreenKnight121]

Or, from another point of view, Russia has an inferiority complex over the desperate desire for freedom from Russian domination on the part of the people of countries that used to be firmly in its sphere of control.


Two sides of every story, that's reality.

[Just a spotter]

Seems the bear might be getting restless.

Report from Reuters, 26th Feb 2014

President Vladimir Putin ordered an urgent drill to test the combat readiness of the armed forces across western Russia on Wednesday, flexing Moscow's military muscle amid tension with the West over Ukraine.

Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/26/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-military-idUSBREA1P0RW20140226)

JAS

[Lonewolf_50]

Bombed - as in Op El Dorado? I guess you had to be involved!
That was in 1986.
The question I raised is "bombed" in 1989. You got anything for me on that one?

In 1989 a couple of Lybian fighters were shot down over the Gulf of Sidra.
The Irrepressible Colonel was pushing to see how far he could go with tweaking the new "kinder and gentler" president's nose.

He found out.

[ORAC]

Streetwise Professor: Autocracy, Orthodoxy, and Nationality: Putin Channels Nicholas I (http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=8190)

[Simplythebeast]

BBC News - Ukraine: Gunmen seize Crimea government buildings (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26364891#TWEET1056960)

[Ronald Reagan]

http://rt.com/news/yanukovich-president-ukraine-statement-002/


http://rt.com/news/ukraine-crimea-referendum-future-014/


Putin orders ?combat readiness? tests for western, central Russian troops ? RT News (http://rt.com/news/putin-drill-combat-army-864/)

[Lonewolf_50]

A little footnote from "simplythebeast's" link
Russia, along with the US, UK and France, pledged to uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine in a memorandum signed in 1994.
Another data point supporting my old notion that Warren Christopher was in a job that was way over his head. If you look at a map and think through what that guarantee means .. it's like the French guaranteeing Poland's territorial integrity in about 1936. :ugh:

[Hangarshuffle]

Looking at the RT spiel, it seems its a "surprise exercise" dropped onto the Russian military by Prez Putin. "Combat Readiness tests "as they are called here.
Apart from the fact this could be cunning plan to invade etc, I was just wondering how we in the UK would fare these days of Dave announced such a party? We would be naffed if it was anytime between 1201 on a Friday to 0800 Monday, granted (especially at Yeovilton or Culdrose).
Surely a short notice combat readiness test must be simply one colossal balls up?
Perhaps our own COS should arrange similar to prove the organization? What has he got to lose?


On a more serious note, just reposting the link Ronald put on, are these pictures recent or library stock? Bet some of you can tell, I cant but it looks like Winter countryside, and presumably this is what a modern Russia armoured assault force on the move looks like? Live ammunition?


http://rt.com/news/putin-drill-combat-army-864/

[GreenKnight121]

LW50 - Or the German signature on the 1839 Treaty of London guaranteeing Belgium's independence and territorial integrity.

[Robert Cooper]

If Ukraine turns toward the European Union and the West Putin may well move to seize Crimea.
It is the only region in Ukraine where Russians are in the majority, and there is the critical naval base at Sevastopol that serves as the home of Russia's Black Sea Fleet and gives the Russian Navy direct access to the Mediterranean Sea. Russia has a lease agreement with Ukraine that allows its fleet to remain at Sevastopol until 2042.
There is ample precedent to believe that if Putin and the Russian establishment believed that Ukraine was slipping permanently out of their grasp, then Russia would find a pretext to seize Crimea. Russia has made it quite clear that it considers the former Soviet Union to be a space where it sees itself having wide latitude for maneuver.

Bob C

[awblain]

Russia's Black Sea fleet has access to the Med only by the gift of Turkey. Should Russia seize part of a sovereign state, the remainder of that state might appeal to them to keep it in its little bathtub, thus perhaps defeating the point.

[melmothtw]

Russia has made it quite clear that it considers the former Soviet Union to
be a space where it sees itself having wide latitude for maneuver.


I wonder if we had the same attitude towards our former empire if the rest of the world would be quite so understanding and accommodating (doubt it, as they were probably part of it).

[awblain]

We? France wasn't too happy to let Algeria go. Britain had big issues in Kenya.

Yet self-determination is a long-established rule. Russia needs to cope with it. Given the number of Ukrainian dead in now-fading memory, some enmity might be expected.

It doesn't seem unreasonable that a new Ukraine would allow majority Russian bits to realign themselves, under the same idea.

[dead_pan]

Have the Russians been bleating about Crimea (and vice versa) for some time and we've just not been told about it by our media, or is this a new thing which has come to the fore ever since the guys in Kiev chased out Yanukovych? A bit of (recent) historical context would be useful (I did hear it used to be part of Byzantia, but that probably isn't too relevant now).

[awblain]

There's been all the shenanigans about the Orange revolution etc, so Ukraine hasn't been a picture of stability since independence.

Russian imperial power through Odessa and Crimea isn't a novelty either.

There were certain issues in the 1930s and 40s too.

[Toadstool]

Russia's Black Sea fleet has access to the Med only by the gift of Turkey. Should Russia seize part of a sovereign state, the remainder of that state might appeal to them to keep it in its little bathtub, thus perhaps defeating the point.

It is not in Turkey's interest to hinder any trade or traffic through the Bosphorus. IF in the event Russia is denied use of its Black Sea port and it resolves this through the use of force, I really can't see Turkey doing anything about it.

People on this thread may harp on about Europe and how toothless it is in the face of all this, but Europe does not have an armed force as such so is powerless to do anything. In addition to this, having been through two world wars, at the forefront of the cold war and its nations been involved in just about any conflict since WW2, Europe has had enough of war.

Again, for all those Euro haters, there is a reason why many countries in Eastern Europe want to join the EU.

[awblain]

Given they have economies comparably sized to within a factor of 2, Turkey can probably hold its own against Mr Putin, who presumably doesn't really want a fuss in the middle of a city of fourteen million people.

There's also a difference between admitting trading ships and naval ships.

[Whenurhappy]

Viz a viz the Bosporus, the Montreaux Treaty (and attendant Commission) regulates the passage of Naval vessels in and out of the Black Sea, with strict criteria on Tonnage, weapons calibres etc. Turkey - as do the other signatories - take it rather seriously....

[Tankertrashnav]

Can I ask an aviation question (we are in Military Aircew after all)?

There was a clip of a large Russian "fast jet" tanking from a pretty impressive tanker on the 6 o'clock BBC news tonight when they were talking about the Russian military build-up. Anyone see it and can identify the types? I liked the snazzy retractable refuelling probe on the port side of the cockpit.

Last type I studied Russian (Soviet) military aircraft it was all Mig 25s, Bears and Badgers, so I'm a bit out of date!

[unmanned_droid]

I didn't see the clip but retractable probe offset to one side suggests one of the Su-27/35 family.

[dead_pan]

Europe does not have an armed force as such so is powerless to do anything.

Not strictly true. Then again, Russia's is also but a shadow it former self. You're absolutely right that Europe wouldn't intervene (at least directly). I suspect many would be more than happy for Russia to embroil itself in Ukraine, its very own Iraq with bells on. Just how deep are Putin's coffers, I wonder? Also, he'd better watch his back at the other end of his vast country.

Again, for all those Euro haters, there is a reason why many countries in Eastern Europe want to join the EU.

Indeed. I suspect many in Russia too.

[dead_pan]

TTN - T50 perhaps (plane, not the tank)? They're quite proud of their Raptor knock-off.

[polecat2]

There was a clip of a large Russian "fast jet" tanking from a pretty impressive tanker on the 6 o'clock BBC news tonight when they were talking about the Russian military build-up. Anyone see it and can identify the types? I liked the snazzy retractable refuelling probe on the port side of the cockpit.

The cockpit canopy would suggest a Mig 29 or variant thereof. The plastic model I made many years ago did not have the refuelling probe though.

Polecat

[Hangarshuffle]

Yep fair enough it is an aircrew forum and supposed to be about military aviation etc. I only started the thread because its not that unlikely that conflict could actually break out on the fringes of Europe and NATO, and is of course somehow capable of spreading like..er the olden days.
Article here by good old Con in the Torygraph. Apparently NATO ministers have backed Ukraine in a meeting this week.
Don't expect Nato to save Ukraine from the Russians ? Telegraph Blogs (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/concoughlin/100261457/dont-expect-nato-to-save-ukraine-from-the-russians/)
Bit like the way chairmen and directors back football managers in tough periods, just before they sack them.
Fair play to Pruners for actually bothering to debating the crisis. Its dropped off the plot and pages of much of the UK mainstream media as a lead article, possibly because its seen as unlikely to drag us in? Or like me, they simply don't care what happens to them, either way. (Cruel, but true).

[awblain]

Looked like Foxhounds fueling from the Candid on the BBC.

It makes sense for a very fast jet not to have any bumps and lumps when the probe is retracted.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Before dismissing Ivan as yesterday's bogey man, these chaps have been taking him seriously since that wall disappeared in Berlin; Conflict Studies Research Centre (http://www.conflictstudies.org.uk/about.php) . I was on their publication distribution list for a long time and I eventually became irritated by the amount of effort they expended on yesterday's people. Maybe they did have a better appreciation of reality than me.

[NutLoose]

The silence of Obama on this speaks volumes.



I see armed men in uniform have now seized an Airport after the key Government buildings in the Crimea...

Sounds like securing the necessary infrastructure, one wouldn't be surprised if it was a Russian led move to reinstall the recently departed President into parts of the Country that support him as a puppet of Moscow. though one would have thought the Ukrainian military would have more than enough capability to prevent any incursions into their airspace, just do they have the will?






.

[GreenKnight121]

Have the Russians been bleating about Crimea (and vice versa) for some time and we've just not been told about it by our media, or is this a new thing which has come to the fore ever since the guys in Kiev chased out Yanukovych? A bit of (recent) historical context would be useful (I did hear it used to be part of Byzantia, but that probably isn't too relevant now).

With Joseph Stalin's change of course in the late 1920s, Moscow's toleration of Ukrainian national identity came to an end. Systematic state terror of the 1930s destroyed Ukraine's writers, artists and intellectuals; the Communist Party of Ukraine was purged of its "nationalist deviationists". Two waves of Stalinist political repression and persecution in the Soviet Union (1929–34 and 1936–38) resulted in the killing of some 681,692 people; this included four-fifths of the Ukrainian cultural elite and three-quarters of all the Red Army's higher-ranking officers.

The industrialisation had a heavy cost for the peasantry, demographically a backbone of the Ukrainian nation. To satisfy the state's need for increased food supplies and to finance industrialisation, Stalin instituted a programme of collectivisation of agriculture as the state combined the peasants' lands and animals into collective farms and enforced the policies by the regular troops and secret police. Those who resisted were arrested and deported and the increased production quotas were placed on the peasantry. The collectivisation had a devastating effect on agricultural productivity. As the members of the collective farms were not allowed to receive any grain until sometimes unrealistic quotas were met, starvation in the Soviet Union became more common. In 1932–33, millions starved to death in a famine known as Holodomor or "Great Famine". Scholars are divided as to whether this famine fits the definition of genocide, but the Ukrainian parliament and other countries recognise it as such.

The famine claimed up to 10 million Ukrainian lives as peasants' food stocks were forcibly removed by the Soviet government by the NKVD secret police.

Following the Invasion of Poland in September 1939, German and Soviet troops divided the territory of Poland. Thus, Eastern Galicia and Volhynia with their Ukrainian population became reunited with the rest of Ukraine. The unification that Ukraine achieved for the first time in its history was a decisive event in the history of the nation.

In 1940, Romania ceded Bessarabia and northern Bukovina in response to Soviet demands. The Ukrainian SSR incorporated northern and southern districts of Bessarabia, northern Bukovina, and the Hertsa region.

Although the majority of Ukrainians fought alongside the Red Army and Soviet resistance, some elements of the Ukrainian nationalist underground created an anti-Soviet nationalist formation in Galicia, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (1942). At times it allied with the Nazi forces, it also carried out the massacres of ethnic Poles, and, after the war, continued to fight the USSR. Using guerrilla war tactics, the insurgents targeted for assassination and terror those who they perceived as representing, or cooperating at any level with, the Soviet state.

At the same time, the Ukrainian Liberation Army, another nationalist movement, fought alongside the Nazis.

In total, the number of ethnic Ukrainians who fought in the ranks of the Soviet Army is estimated from 4.5 million to 7 million. Pro-Soviet partisan guerrilla resistance in Ukraine is estimated to number at 47,800 from the start of occupation to 500,000 at its peak in 1944; with about 50% being ethnic Ukrainians. Generally, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army's figures are not very reliable, with figures ranging anywhere from 15,000 to as much as 100,000 fighters.

Post-war ethnic cleansing occurred in the newly expanded Soviet Union. As of 1 January 1953, Ukrainians were second only to Russians among adult "special deportees", comprising 20% of the total. In addition, over 450,000 ethnic Germans from Ukraine and more than 200,000 Crimean Tatars were victims of forced deportations.

Following the death of Stalin in 1953, Nikita Khrushchev became the new leader of the USSR. Having served as First Secretary of the Communist Party of Ukrainian SSR in 1938–49, Khrushchev was intimately familiar with the republic; after taking power union-wide, he began to emphasize the friendship between the Ukrainian and Russian nations. In 1954, the 300th anniversary of the Treaty of Pereyaslav was widely celebrated.
On 19 February 1954 Crimea was transferred from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR.



The region in 1220:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/001_Kievan_Rus%27_Kyivan_Rus%27_Ukraine_map_1220_1240.jpg/483px-001_Kievan_Rus%27_Kyivan_Rus%27_Ukraine_map_1220_1240.jpg

In 1600:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Crimean_Khanate_1600.gif

In 1751:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/Bager1968/Ukraine1751_zpsb8b76a1d.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Bager1968/media/Ukraine1751_zpsb8b76a1d.jpg.html)

And in March 1932:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/Bager1968/UkraineMarch1932_zpsea1af95d.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Bager1968/media/UkraineMarch1932_zpsea1af95d.jpg.html)

[Robert Cooper]

It is being reported tonight that armed men in Russian military uniforms have seized an airport in the capital of Ukraine's strategic Crimea region early Friday.
50 or so men were wearing the same gear as the ones who seized government buildings in the city, Simferopol, on Thursday and raised the Russian flag.

The Russians do seem to be after the Crimea.

Bob C

[Robert Cooper]

Along with United States and Great Britain, Russia is signatory to the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, which commits all three to “refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine” and to “refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.”
It appears that Russia has already violated both those commitments. The only question now is how far Putin is prepared to go.

Bob C

[unmanned_droid]

The reports of 'armed men in Russian uniform' is telling. Sounds to me like The black sea fleet stores have been opened up to a pro russian Ukrainian group in the Crimea. I think if they were Russian armed forces, they'd say so?

[dead_pan]

They seem to be using the same tactic as they used in Georgia i.e. what appear to be irregulars with no insignia. Deniability and all that.

A headline on RT did raise a wry smile this AM, something along the lines of "Armed men search airport for troops from Kiev". Surely this is the wrong way around?

[Tankertrashnav]

awblain - Thanks - on checking library pictures I'd agree - Candid and Foxhounds. Thanks to others too. Of course the F4 had a retractable refuelling probe as well - on the starboard side IIRC.

Back to Ukrainian politics!

[M609]

Is this kickoff?

Russian transport planes and gunships landing at Simferopol (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dagbladet.no%2F2014%2F02%2F28%2Fnyheter%2 Fukraina%2Futenriks%2Fpolitikk%2Frussland%2F32084277%2F&act=url)

[NutLoose]

Well the west stood by and let him walk over Georgia so he knows they will not do anything, surprised that Ukraine didn't shut their airspace over the Crimea and warn any incursions would be fired at.

And of course they will be using the fact they have the ousted President to justify it all.

[Robert Cooper]

Ukraine may be believing that the US and NATO will honor the treaty from 1994 guaranteeing Ukraine's territorial integrity. Good luck with that, guys. There is no way that any NATO country or the US will confront Russian troops in the Ukraine, or anywhere else for that matter. Putin will show that he has a free hand to act in his own backyard which means the sovereignty and independence of former Soviet republics is now an open question.
How much of Ukraine will Russia seek to bite off? Perhaps only the Crimea, although they may push for more autonomy for their ethnic cousins in the east. It's Putin who is driving this crisis now and no one appears to want to stop anything he may have planned.
In a few weeks at most, East Ukraine and the Crimea will be wholly-owned by Russia, and there isn't a damned thing anyone can do about it.

Bob C

[adminblunty]

I doubt we will intervene, what will we gain versus what will we lose?
The Ukraine borders Russia and was once part of the USSR, hence they view it as within their sphere of influence. The Ukraine is nigh on broke and close to defaulting on its debt without Russian loans, will the EU or US fund them, of course not. The US can barely keep the US government going without raising its debt ceiling (again) and the EU(Germany) is sick of bailing out countries (Ireland, Portugal, Greece). The IMF could do, however will the IMF get its money back if the Ukraine is broken up and a large part of it ends up in the Russian federation? Plus the EU gas pipe lines run through Russia and the Ukraine and its winter. Hence in so many ways we can't afford to intervene, whereas Russia has the money, means (military) and motivation (ethnic Russian population in the Ukraine). It may end up at the UN, so what Russia will veto any resolution it doesn't like, just like we do. Russia has already won.

[Whenurhappy]

Ok, let's assume this becomes an occupation and Crimea and the Eastern Oblasts then cede to Russia and the West do nothing about it (and let's face it, the UNSC will do nothing about it, because of the Russian P5 veto). What happens next? What other areas will Tsar Putin decide should become part of Mother Russia?

I'm not being a apologist nor a war-monger, but Putin should be reminded of the Treaty that underpins the sovereignty of Ukraine. Force might be needed to reinforce this.

[awblain]

If it's good enough for Scotland…

If a majority of the occupants of eastern Ukraine want to be part of Russia, is an odd treaty from the early 90s really valid to stop them expressing their natural freedom of self determination?

I don't think it's a question of Putin forcing, but of the locals wanting. If the destruction of Grozny's going to be ignored, then a few boundary changes should probably be ignored too.

[TheWizard]

LiveLeak.com - Crimea: No science fiction, no action movie. This is how a Russian airborne invasion looks like.

[racedo]

New and conflicting details emerge over Mogilevich?s alleged involvement in nation (http://web.archive.org/web/20121003052951/http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/new-and-conflicting-details-emerge-over-mogilevich-92521.html)

Cable reference id: #06KIEV1531 (http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=06KIEV1531&version=1300547340)

Ukraines Interim President is such a paragon of virtue as the above shows...............

[Hangarshuffle]

C4 and BBC woke up again and covered the story today.
Thankfully the British people also are awake and perhaps more savvy, indifferent and callous, war weary than once they were.
Leave well alone and stay out.
Watching BBC 2 news just now they reported some young chaps in the west of Ukraine have a nice line in Nazi memorabilia.....Putins going to eat them alive.

[Alber Ratman]

Not worth a war..

[Tankertrashnav]

As always in these conflicts the Western media rush to decide who are the goodies and who are the baddies.

Thus it was nice Bosnians and naughty Serbs, naughty President Assad and nice Syrian freedom fighters and now it seems it's naughty Russians and nice Ukrainians (unless they speak Russian of course).

Of course the position is always a lot less clear, and some of the groups moving in to fill the power vacuum in Kiev are decidedly dodgy, as referred to by hangarshuffle. One of the guys in the news item was identifying "Russians, Jews and Poles" as groups with undue economic influence in the Ukraine.

Anyone want us to go to war to put someone like that in power? I pray we stay well away from this one.

[Ronald Reagan]

Superb footage of the helos


??????? ????????? ? ????? (?. ????????) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/LYFh2lABg48)


This has all be very peaceful so far, not a shot fired.


Putin was right to stick up for the legitimate President of Ukraine and to protect the people of the Crimea.


The west should keeps its nose out of things which do not concern it. Especially so in this case!!!!

[NutLoose]

Surely the longer the Ukraine leaves this, the less chance they have of responding or getting their territory back, they should have forcible retook the Government buildings before this escalated, that would have sent the signal that you are not simply going to walk into our Country. Though one can understand how this has happened with the Government in turmoil as it is at the moment.

[Ronald Reagan]

NutLoose, it seems most of the locals want this. Not a shot was fired against the Russians. I even saw footage of local police walking past them.
At the end of the day considering how those people took power in Kiev, simply by taking it through force, they cannot really in moral terms say much to Russia now. Arguably Yanukovych could still be the legitimate President. If he were at some point in the coming days to formally request Russian military support Russia could say they are acting on behalf of the legitimate President who is asking for assistance! Then within the Ukraine it would come down to who backs who!

[Bastardeux]

The west should keeps its nose out of things which do not concern it. Especially so in this case!!!!

Are you on glue!? If ever a time has arisen, since 1939, for the West to be involved, this is it! This IS the west, it's a few hundred miles from Germany and borders the European Union; how this is resolved is going to set a tone for decades, if you ask me! Where next? Belarus?

[NutLoose]

NutLoose, it seems most of the locals want this. Not a shot was fired against the Russians. I even saw footage of local police walking past them.
At the end of the day considering how those people took power in Kiev, simply by taking it through force, they cannot really in moral terms say much to Russia now. Arguably Yanukovych could still be the legitimate President. If he were at some point in the coming days to formally request Russian military support Russia could say they are acting on behalf of the legitimate President who is asking for assistance! Then within the Ukraine it would come down to who backs who!


Then that is for the country to decide, similar to what is happening here with Scotland, not for a third party to march in and take control by force.

As for the legitimacy of the ousted a President, well it was their Parliament that voted him out, not the protestors, and they represent the electorate.

[Danny42C]

Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of these developments, and the questions of What Should Be Done about it, and What Can Be Done about it, and what is Advisable To Be Done about it, and Where The Balance of Advantage Lies, there rests one little question:

Who'll Bell the Cat ?

[Robert Cooper]

Good question Danny. But just like the fable, none of the mice are willing to do it.

Bob C

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The UN is based on the principle of self-determination. The vast proportion of the World's current borders were not drawn on that principle, but on a whole bunch of highly dubious expediencies such as naked self-interest by dictators/aristocracy, defendable geographic features or administratively convenient straight lines.
The next century is going to be very messy. There will be '**** like this' happening every year. I expect there will be a lot of ethnic or religious 'cleansing', most of it self-conducted by minorities moving to safety.
The current crop of short-termist political animals running the West are very poorly equipped to deal with this, especially since their primary concern, as they are their paymasters, is big business.
We need a long view, and some kind of process for regions to determine their own government which is not necessarily connected to current borders. If a peaceful way to do this cannot be found, then the Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, CAR and half a hundred other places will keep descending into/remain in very nasty conflicts for which the term 'civil war' is too clean-cut.
Furthermore, any attempt to take in even 10% of the refugees will bankrupt the western democracies - there will simply be far too many refugees.

[Whenurhappy]

I would argue that the UN was about restoration of status quo ante and Big Power politics (hence the Permanent 5 Veto). De-colonising (and with in Self Determination) became a la mode with US support in the 1950s onwards (principally through the indebtedness of UK to the US); of course de-colonising became a proxy Cold War front line and it became the darling of the Left as an opportunity to lambast Capitalism and Colonialism, missing the bitter irony of the Soviet occupied states in Central and Eastern Europe.

I remember attending a Short University Course in about 1995, where one of the lecturers (Phillip Towle, if my memory serves me right) talked of the potential 'Balkanising' of Britain, reflecting what was happening in former Yugoslavia. Most of us scoffed and thought it unlikely; however, since then there has been power-sharing in Northern Ireland, devolution in Scotland and Wales, and the potential breakup of the Union later this year if Scotland votes for independence. None of this, I might add, has or will involve the UN.

The difference in Ukraine is that a sovereign state appears now to be under re-occupation of its former ruler, under the guise of protecting ethnic Russians. This has been long-planned with evidence in Ukraine and the Baltic states including issuing Russian Passports FOC to ethnic Russians, to justify intervention. As I pointed out above. Where else will Putin decide to expand the Tsarist Empire? Karelia? Outwith of Kaliningrad? Latvia, Lithuanian and Estonia (on the shoddy basis that they were once part of Russia and roughly 1/3 of populations are Russian speaking?) Retake Georgia? Poland?

Based on my (limited knowledge) of Russia, and in particular Moscow, Putin and his silivoki cohort suffer from a massive inferiority complex. 'They' want to be regarded as Europeans but steadfastly neglect to behave like us. Litvinyenko anybody? Poisoning someone in such a public way, in a hotel opposite the US Embassy in Grosvenor Square, was nothing short of state-sponsored terror. Putin and his gang, like most Russian rulers before him, are nothing more than bullies, but they strengthen from the lack of real reaction from the international community. Without a doubt, there is now a power vacuum in western Ukraine and unless 'we' do something, Putin and his thugs will fill that, too. Who thinks that he'll stop once he's got the Crimea peninsula?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I would argue that the UN was about restoration of status quo ante

Agreed. Herein lies the problem with the UN. Its aim is not in agreement with its principle.

[racedo]

As for the legitimacy of the ousted a President, well it was their Parliament that voted him out, not the protestors, and they represent the electorate.

And there legal right to vote him out has been shown to completely legal according to what Ukranian law exactly ?

Has the law been tested in court ?
Does it correspond to the Ukranian Constitution ?

Nobody has checked a single piece of this only MOB rule is ok because the West likes the result.

[GreenKnight121]

The south-eastern ~40% of Ukraine is majority ethnic Russian, and has been closely associated with Russia for centuries (remember, Crimea used to be part of Russia until Khrushchev transferred it to Ukraine in 1954).
This part wants close ties with Russia.

The north-western ~60% of Ukraine is majority ethnic-pole & other, and used to be part of Poland or Romania as recently as the early 1800s (some parts until after WW1).
This part wants close ties with EU.

This is another case of an artificially-formed "nation" that is fundamentally two different countries, with two different peoples and desires, which should be allowed to split!

Anything else will result in either a full-scale long-term occupation by Russia or a continuation of the last year's discord for a very long time.

See my post #158 (http://www.pprune.org/8344034-post158.html) in this thread for more historical info and maps.

[racedo]

I would argue that the UN was about restoration of status quo ante and Big Power politics (hence the Permanent 5 Veto).


Which is the restoration of the duly elected President of Ukraine until such time as another election is held.

The advocacy of lets give into Mod rule because we like the result means that if a Million Spanish gathering regarding Unemployment in Madrid and storm Govt buildings and demand a new govt then we should recognise.
Once you give into Mob rule then what next ?

Russia has done nothing wrong in relation to Ukraine, it is allowed move its military equipment around, move personnel in and out of the country.

The claim that some group of people armed or otherwise have gone to the airport or other places is actually not much different that a thousand people gathering in middle of Kiev.

[Ronald Reagan]

To be honest if Russia wanted to take back the entire eastern block I would not that worried, it was theirs before, it can be again if they want it! It would cost them a great deal of money though! Currently the eastern block costs us a great deal of money!
If the Russians really started moving in a big way then we in the west would have to rebuild our forces in a big way, but while its just eastern block nations which were once under their control, I would not get involved. The risk of some kind of nuclear conflict is just to great.


Someone on here said about Belarus! Belarus is with Russia, as long as the west does not try to topple its pro Russian leader I don't see there will be an issue. I did read the other week that Russia is now going to permanently base a combat wing in Belarus, to kind of counter continued western expansion into their sphere of influence.
I would preferred to keep all of the east as a non aligned, non NATO, (no western bases) buffer zone between the west and Russia. But continued western expansion has threatened Russia in a big way which is what I feared it would do.

[TEEEJ]

I wonder if the Captain has taken a crew vote to determine if she returns to Ukraine or not?

Ukrainian Frigate Hetman Sahaidachny Heads Home

Ukrainian frigate Hetman Sahaidachny has successfully completed an operational tour with the EU Naval Force and is now sailing towards her home port of Sevastopol in the Ukraine.

The Ukrainian frigate joined the EU Naval Force on Friday 3 January 2014, after first deploying with NATO’s counter- piracy Operation Ocean Shield in the same region.

Ukrainian Frigate Hetman Sahaidachny Heads Home >> Naval Today (http://navaltoday.com/2014/02/28/ukrainian-frigate-hetman-sahaidachny-heads-home/)

[Bergerie1]

GreenKnight


I think you are right. Too many countries have been 'artificially' created regardless of ethnic/linguistic/tribal/historical boundaries. Probably the best thing would be for the Ukraine to split exactly as you suggest. It is certainly not worth going to war over it.

[NutLoose]

But where does that stop? Are you then going to sanction that the world over?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Yes.
Basic principle of self-determination.
It's going to happen anyway, eventually.
If there isn't a peaceful mechanism, then it is more likely to be messy.
That's not to say that the world will fragment - unions are also possible.
That said, the unions have to come from popular support. That's why the current EU will collapse - it doesn't have popular support in a number of countries- it's just a construct by power-mad politicians.

[Ronald Reagan]

Putin: Kremlin heeding Crimea leader's call for help - latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-ukraine-russia-crimea-20140301,0,1978836.story#ixzz2uia05suu)

[ORAC]

Vladimir Putin on Saturday submitted a request to the upper house of parliament asking approval for the use of Russian troops in Ukraine, the Kremlin said.

Here is the statement from the Kremlin:

In connection with the extraordinary situation in Ukraine, the threat to the lives of citizens of the Russian Federation, our compatriots, and the personnel of the armed forces of the Russian Federation on Ukrainian territory (in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea) ... I submit a proposal on using the armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of Ukraine until the normalisation of the socio-political situation in the that country.

[SASless]

Racedo is far closer to being right than most here.

Where I would argue with him is over his definition of "Mob" in this case.

A "Mob" of Nations or of Individuals....what is the real difference really?

I see this as being a European thing....and hope Welfare Man sticks to his usual routine of running his Fool Mouth and being seen as being an Idiot....and does not decide to use our Military in any way to get us embroiled in this.

He is cutting our Military to Pre-WWII size....scuttling more of our Fleet than ever happened before....cutting the Air Force to saddening levels....and gutting the Army and Marine Corps.

The only good thing about all that is we will not have the capability of fighting a War overseas....but hopefully will be able to defend our Homeland when the invasion finally comes. Oh....sorryo.....I forgot....the Mexicans have already invaded and have established a solid presence here already!

So....y'all go ahead on.....and deal with Mr. Putin and the Russian Military will you....we will happily sit this one out!

[TheWizard]

Seems like Putin has got the backing he requested then! :bored:
As it unfolds....
Ukraine Liveblog Day 12: Putin Prepares an Invasion | The Interpreter (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-12-putin-prepares-an-invasion/#1446)

[Hangarshuffle]

..think some British people have more sympathy for Putin and Russia than the Western Ukrainians, many of whose thugs seem to Nazi sympathisers. But its a dogs breakfast.
Pretty impressive how fast Russia moved when it wanted to......

[Heathrow Harry]

well they had the whole of the Winter Olympics to get their ducks in line

[NutLoose]

Shows the regard they hold the disabled games too.

[Heathrow Harry]

I would not want to be a disabled person in the FSU or in any of the old Communist Block TBH

[racedo]

..think some British people have more sympathy for Putin and Russia than the Western Ukrainians, many of whose thugs seem to Nazi sympathisers. But its a dogs breakfast.
Pretty impressive how fast Russia moved when it wanted to.....

Many Ukranians fought for Nazis, many I know had no choice, do know of these cases and also post War that US recruited these to join US Army for shipping out for Invasion of Japan, luckily war ended earlier but the Allies kept their part of the bargain so US/UK/ etc got many ex Ukranian Wemharct soldiers.

Ukranian nationalists slaughted up to 300,000 Poles in what was Eastern Poland now Western Ukraine, seeing some of the Nationalist and Anti Semitic crap that is popping up in Kiev shows it never really went that far away.

[melmothtw]

Many Finns fought for the Nazis as well, but as in Ukraine's case it was more a case of 'my enemy's enemy....'.

Since when did wanting closer ties with Europe make the Ukrainians anti-Semite? If there have been such elements among the tens of thousands who occupied Independence Square, is it right to tar the entire nation with that brush, and does it legitimise a Russian invasion of a sovereign nation?

I think Mil-26Man had it about right, but with no sense of irony the mods have banned him in true Soviet style for speaking his mind.

[Robert Cooper]

An international treaty was signed on February, 5, 1994, in Budapest between Ukraine, USA, Russia, and the United Kingdom concerning the nuclear disarmament of Ukraine and included security assurances of her independence.

According to the treaty Ukraine has abandoned her nuclear arsenal to Russia, while Russia, USA, and the UK have promised
(1) to respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within her borders;
(2) to protect Ukraine from outer aggression and not to conduct aggression toward Ukraine;
(3) not to put economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence her politics;
(4) not to use nuclear arms against Ukraine."

Unlike in the case of Georgia, in Ukraine the signatories are obliged by the agreement to protect it. It is ironic that it might have to be done against one of the signatories.

The question is: Will the USA and UK step up to their promises?

[NutLoose]

It'll be alright, Hague is going to Kiev tomorrow, do you think he knows it's not a breaded Chicken product?


I will bet a fiver it's to back peddle on the agreement, whilst trying to bull**** the UK populace that it is anything else..

[SASless]

The question is: Will the USA and UK step up to their promises?


When it comes to keeping "Promises".....Welfare Man doesn't keep his own Promises....much less someone else's!

Just what might the US do militarily? Short Answer....Nothing that matters!

What might we do Diplomatically......with Lurch as SecState....expect a lot of hot air, bluster, and ultimately....embarrassment at the hands of Putin!

Just what does the UK have to gain by living up to the Treaty? Short Answer....nothing!

[melmothtw]

Not like George Bush Snr eh SASLess, who told the Marsh Arabs to rise up against Saddam and then sent in US forces to help them when they did...oh,wait...

[melmothtw]

And what we have to gain by honouring our treaties is that is shows they are worth the paper they're printed on. Might come in useful when we need to next sign a treaty that is to our benefit.

[glad rag]

The pragmatic stance would be to "agree" to russia retaining it's black sea access and military installations because they are not going to let those go without a fight, period.

As for NATO? well it's certainly not the force it was once that's for sure.

Personally from a nationalistic stance, until Typhoon gets Meteor they are outclassed by the Russian Air Force, best we keep well clear until then. As for the USAF the same, once their f22 are shot out then they will die, period, then what?

No, the way forwards would be to "accept" that Russian has/needs the black sea access. Work it from there.

But I doubt that the current generation of western politicians have the ability to think BIG, only soundbites count these days....:ugh:

[melmothtw]

No one has suggested that Russia shouldn't retain it's Black Sea access or its bases in Crimea, not even the Ukrainians. This is just an opportunistic land grab.

[ex_matelot]

I suspect the West is currently urgently researching reverse-gear diplomatic technology for if our bluff gets called after the requisite noises of disapproval and threats of consequences have been made.

Obama seems to be good at 'drawing lines'. Putin has the ability to produce a mahoosive bottle of Tippex though...

[glad rag]

Ukraine places forces on combat alert and threatens war as UN security council meets ? live updates | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/01/crimea-crisis-deepens-as-russia-and-ukraine-ready-forces-live-updates)

Latvia+Lithuania have invoked NATO art. 4 in response to #crimea (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23crimea&src=hash) NATO now obliged to hold emerg council meeting. Only 4th time in history
— James Mates (@jamesmatesitv) March 1, 2014 (https://twitter.com/jamesmatesitv/statuses/439843485383147520)

[ex_matelot]

'Survive to fight' manual being retrieved from loft imminently...

I think this has potential to actually do us a bit of good actually - put our politicians back in their box for a bit and concentrate more on sorting our own **** out - as opposed to grand-standing on the world stage.

Either that or mutually assured destruction..

[NutLoose]

Better get these shipped earliest then if Latvia is calling on NATO


Latvian army to purchase approximately 120 armored vehicles worth EUR 70 mln :: The Baltic Course | Baltic States news & analytics (http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/transport/?doc=88352)

[SASless]

Melm....you are well known for your inability to rationally discuss issues...and that if you moved any further left you would meet yourself coming the other direction.

Welfare Man does not have the Balls to stand up for "freedom" movements unless they are Islamists.....just look back at his track record. Care to give us an example of where he did....say Iran for a start?

What Bush did has nothing to do with today....and Welfare Man.

Treaties are not worth the paper they are written on and everyone knows that.

The only thing that really matters is the willingness of the participants to hold to the agreement and not the paper. Did not you learn that lesson back in the late 30's and that infamous "Peace in Our Time" horse ****?

Unless I am mistaken....the very folks that are causing the problem are already signed up for the Treaty they themselves are breaking....or have I read that wrong here somewhere?

Stick to relevant issues and leave off your Leftie crap please.

[ex_matelot]

sasless... I consider our (uk & us) leaders left wing. I dont either consider it traitorous to wish we had leaders with real balls, or at least a real grounding in the real, rough world. whats your opinion on all this and the west?


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[melmothtw]

Leaving the 'personal' insults aside SASLess (I'm not sure it is possible to be personal on an anonymous internet chat forum), I do have to agree with you that President Obama (as an American, you should really show more respect for that office, notwithstanding your almost rabid levels of antipathy towards its incumbent) has been somewhat disappointing in his lack of leadership on Ukraine, but my point about Bush Snr was that a failure in moral leadership isn't the reserve of Democrat presidents.

As to 'peace in our time', some might say we went some way to exercising that particular stain on our national conscience by honouring our treaty obligations with Poland and declaring war on Germany on their behalf. Perhaps that wasn't in our self interest SASLess, but the world is a better place that we did. Maybe there's a lesson there.

[racedo]

(as an American, you should really show more respect for that office, notwithstanding your almost rabid levels of antipathy towards its incumbent)

My view on SAS is that he has served and been willing to lay down his life for the US on many occasions.

I believe he has always respected the Office of his CiC notwithstanding the various idiots the electorate picked up at the dime store and elected.

Frankly we have seen the effects of psychophantic people following messianic leaders.......

[SASless]

I am free to respect the Office....but not the Man....as they are separable. If you recall....we have Impeached previous Presidents for misconduct which I suppose to be the ultimate form of disrespect and quite more formal a method but in the end shows the Man to be unworthy of the Office. Ours is supposed to be a Nation of Laws....and not Men, something perhaps you do not understand. We very easily discern actions that are unbecoming a President and will hold the Individual in the Office accountable for their actions.

As Welfare Man ignores our Law when it suits him.....he places himself above the Law by his actions and attitude and that begets the reaction from Citizens that you see reflected in my posts and others.

We are free to speak our minds about our political leaders due to a thing called the First Amendment.....and no where in any Register is there a law that demands us to show "respect" to the President other than out of plain common courtesy. Recall our Presidents are not granted Title....and remain mere "Mister" except when being addressed directly and then the use of "Mr. President" actually relates to the Office he holds.

In some cases they are referred to as "The Defendant" as in Bill Clintons Perjury Proceeding as you may recall.



Ex-Mate....asking me to provide a reliable estimate of the range of actions the UK and US Governments might take over the Ukraine Situation is fairly hopeless.

I view this just as i do the Syria situation.....as far as i can discern....there is scant National Security Interests for us here in the United States. We do not have the Economic or Military Assets to devote to another War of any kind....and that immediately prevents us from taking a real hard nosed stand.

We will make all sorts of noises....rattle our one remaining Sword....propose UN Sanctions knowing the Russians will Veto anything significant and thus appear to have tried to do the right thing but in reality do nothing.

The Russians are there and we are not. That pretty well sums it up.

Putin will get whatever resolution he wants and as our Welfare Man has acted like he was still in Chicago and made US National Interest differences with Russia into a personal thing with Putin (and got slapped down several times in the process) then Putin will milk the Crisis for everything it is worth.....knowing Welfare Man has lost all of his political capital over Obamacare and so many other Scandals on the US domestic front.

Putin and Russia are in the Driver's Seat....have hold of the Steering Wheel and the Throttle.....and the rest of the World are just riding along in the back of the Bus....some are going to pay for the ride and some are going to ride for free.

Putin will decide where everyone gets off and where the Bus winds up.

One Man's Opinion of course....based upon pure speculation.

[melmothtw]

A US president who ignores the law when he wants to? We can talk about Nixon and Watergate, or Reagan and Iran-Contra if you like (and don't even get me started on George W!), but probably not suited to this thread at this time.

By the way, loved your comment earlier about 'treaties not being worth the paper they're written on and everyone knows it'. That's pretty much how your nation came to be founded - on the back of broken treaties? No?

Of course, I'm just being facetious. Am a huge fan of America, as I've said many times here and elsewhere.

[racedo]

By the way, loved your comment earlier about 'treaties not being worth the paper they're written on and everyone knows it'. That's pretty much how your nation came to be founded - on the back of broken treaties? No?

Nope

It was a desire to be in contol of their own destiny without being a cash cow where the money was taken but had no say in what happened to it.

You know Self Determination.

[SASless]

Stick to the issues Melm.....this is about the Ukraine, Obama, Putin.....not Nixon, Reagan, or the Bush's.

[melmothtw]

I am, of course, referring to their relations with Native Americans, rather than the British.

It was on the back of broken treaties with the Indians that the United States as we know it today largely came into being...some would say.

Trail of Broken Treaties 20-Point Position Paper - An Indian Manifesto (http://www.aimovement.org/ggc/trailofbrokentreaties.html)

Do keep up racedo.

[West Coast]

Hell, then Northern Ireland is fair game as well.

[SASless]

Or the War of 1812....where we had to show them the door a second time with help from those Indian fellers and some Pirates down New Orleans way.

[melmothtw]

And as a sovereign independent nation that had been invaded by a bullying former colonial master, you had every right to fight us and kick us out (and for a second time, as you helpfully reminded me).

I hope the similarity with Ukraine and Russia today isn't lost on you, but I suspect it is.

Ps, apologies for burning the White House down...

[SASless]

The Ukraine People are quite free to repel any invading force.....just as we did. If we had different leadership....perhaps we would be more inclined to give them assistance and stand with them.

We don't....they are on their own.

Our guy was so concerned he skipped the NSC Meeting on the Situation. Probably had a Tee Time that conflicted with the Meeting and one must maintain priorities.

[melmothtw]

Like I said, I haven't been too impressed with Obama's response to this crisis either (though my disappointment is based on his actions [or lack of] as opposed to any ideological position I might have with regard to his presidency).

I guess the difference is that I don't think it's ok to ignore your treaty obligations, but hey ho.

[West Coast]

And just what would you expect him to do?

[melmothtw]

Obama? Show some moral leadership as the President of the United States and spell out some of the consequences he keeps referring to.

Perhaps then he might want to implement some of these consequences (I'm assuming they will be political and economic, rather than military), should Putin persist.

That would be a start...

[West Coast]

How do you know he hasn't?

[melmothtw]

Publically.

...im guessing he hasnt because we're still having this conversation.

[ORAC]

South Georgia, now Ukraine. The fear in eastern Europe is, where next?

In particular in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia - all of which have similarly large ethnic Russian populations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_the_Baltic_states) and disputes concerning their rights and pleas on their behalf to "Mother Russia". All also now EU and NATO members looking fearfully over their shoulders and wondering if the rest will stand by them.

Will we, if push comes to shove?

UNSC, EU, NATO to hold urgent meetings over Ukraine (http://www.turkishpress.com/news/393234/)

.......Meanwhile, Lithuania and Latvia called upon the North Atlantic Council, the decision-making body of NATO, to hold an extraordinary session on Ukraine, citing security concerns.

"Russia must respect Ukraine's sovereignty, territorial integrity and borders, including the movement of Russian forces in Ukraine," said Secretary General of NATO Anders Fogh Rasmussen on his official Twitter account. Rasmussen also voiced an "urgent need" for de-escalation in Crimea, highlighting that "NATO allies continue to coordinate closely.".............

Lithuania To Invoke NATO Treaty On Ukraine (http://inserbia.info/news/2014/03/lithuania-to-invoke-nato-treaty-on-ukraine/)

Lithuania’s FM Linkevicius has said Russia’s decision to deploy forces in Ukraine means “Nato, art. 4 becomes valid,” referring to article 4 of the Nato treaty, EUObserver.com reported.The article says Nato members must meet for consultations if “the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the parties is threatened.”

[West Coast]

Far be it from a non Obama voter to defend him, but...


Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. If as reports say he had a come to Jesus talk with Putin, that would seem to be a better venue a few days into the situation to cajole, infer or downright threaten actions.

[melmothtw]

Doesn't seem to be working WestCoast.

[West Coast]

Assuming your correct, that's a reflection on Obama then?

[NutLoose]

US calls for international observers as Ukraine places forces on combat alert and threatens war ? as it happened | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/01/crimea-crisis-deepens-as-russia-and-ukraine-ready-forces-live-updates)

Looks like Obama's all about talk and no action.

[SASless]

If as reports say he had a come to Jesus talk with Putin,

Oh my.....we know how that works don't we!

The Helmet Headed, girlie bike riding Basket Ball player who cannot hit a basket, former Community Organizer is going to intimidate a former LtCol in the KGB?:rolleyes:


Now by golly....that is funny no matter who you are!:D

[sitigeltfel]

Looks like Obama's all about talk and no action.

Last seen running around the White House like a headless chicken.

[TBM-Legend]

Don't forget your Balaclavas and your Cardigans....

[Heathrow Harry]

Exactly what do SASLess, sitigeltfel,ORAC etc want Obama to do?

From the tone of their posts it sounds like threatening military action is their thing.....

Is the USA ready to go to war for Ukraine? yes or no?

Is the USA willing to risk going to war for Ukraine? yes or no?

If the answer to the above is no then all that is left is talking and sanctions

[Wrathmonk]

Are we going to see a last minute boycott of the 2014 Paralympic Games ..... opening ceremony 7th March .....

Not sure that Putin would really give a stuff mind.:oh:

[Wander00]

That would be very sad, on two grounds


- The Olympic Games should be free of politics (although we know they seldom are), and


- The Paralympic athletes of all nations should not be denied their competition, although, sadly, I am sure some at least will be

[Easy Street]

If the answer to the above is no then all that is left is talking and sanctions

That's 20th century thinking, HH. Perhaps it's time for the recently-formed US Cyber Command to swing into (covert) action - if it hasn't already. Russia used cyberspace to great effect in Georgia, and I've no doubt that a lot of the coverage of "ethnic Russians" asking for the motherland's help is being generated for consumption by useful idiots watching youtube around the world. Judging by comments on BBC News and elsewhere, they appear to be working. We should have learned by now that Putin has no respect for hand-wringing protestations about international law - which in any case is a wooly concept, rooted in western values, to which the Russians have never truly subscribed.

I don't think Putin has any intention of entering all-out war. He has calculated that the west's inability to corral public support for military action means that he can act as he pleases. "International law" can only work when it's observed by both sides and it might be time to play dirty. I wonder what other Stuxnet-like tricks the world has got up its collective sleeves...

Are we going to see a last minute boycott of the 2014 Paralympic Games ..... opening ceremony 7th March .....
Not sure that Putin would really give a stuff mind.:oh:Yes, I should imagine he would see it as an added bonus if he was relieved of the requirement to host a sideshow for the physically-imperfect. Not my opinion, you understand, but one I can quite imagine him holding.

[Ronald Reagan]

Ukrainian Navy flagship takes Russia’s side
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-navy-flaghsip-protest-389/

[rh200]

Judging by comments on BBC News and elsewhere

Yea there was a good one apparently from someone in the Uk with a good original sounding name saying how the Russians are just thinking of the people, and its democrocy in action.

Yes, I should imagine he would see it as an added bonus if he was relieved of the requirement to host a sideshow for the physically-imperfect. Not my opinion, you understand, but one I can quite imagine him holding.

I'm fairly sure I know what he thinks of Obama

[NutLoose]

Ukrainian and Russian troops in standoff at Crimean military base - live updates | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/02/ukraine-warns-russia-crimea-war-live)

It's ramping up, it will only take the odd trigger happy individual to start it off, the nuclear power facilities must be a serious concern given the amount of them, look how far it spread and what happened when Chernobyl went pop, and that was only one.

Bring back the cold war, at least that had a stabilising factor on these things, It just needs some big balls in Washington to ramp up a response to tell him once and for all it will not be tolerated, sadly I feel that is lacking, both here and there.

I do feel sorry for the disabled Olympians who may lose their chance after years of hard work..

[SASless]

Harry.....do stick to telling us what you have to say and leave off trying to speak for me as I am quite capable of expressing my own views without any assistance from the likes of you.

I have made myself quite clear on what I see the Welfare Man doing....and not doing. He is completely hopeless when it comes to Foreign Relations and his latest choice of Lurch as SecState just makes the situation worse.

A Closet Muslim and a Traitor concocting foreign policy.....sadly is what we find ourselves with today.

You watch the results and start the Tally with Iran, Libya, Egypt, North Korea, China, Russia, Venezuela, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Mali, and Nigeria. Point out any success yet?

[melmothtw]

Does killing Bin Laden count as a success, or does that not fit with your narrative of your president as being a 'closet Muslim traitor'?

[SASless]

Melm....do work on your reading comprehension and analysis of history.

Welfare Man is the Closet Muslim.....Lurch is the Traitor.

Last time I checked, it was US SpecOps and our Intelligence services that got Osama....not Welfare Man.

All Welfare Man did was issue the Order after McRaven took all the liability.

The Infrastructure that led to our capability to carry out such a Raid started way before Welfare Man came into office.

Do study a bit will you.

Reality is the deep end of the Pool....you seem to live in the Shallow End.

[melmothtw]

So President Obama takes the blame for the foreign policy failures, but not the credit for the successes?

Literally damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

Again, riding above the personal insults SASLess (though I would go easy on those, as the mods appear to be a bit 'ban happy' of late).