Ukraine Crisis 2014 [Archive] - Page 3

Ronald Reagan

22nd Mar 2014, 18:06

How William Hague Deceived the House of Commons on Ukraine | David Morrison (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-morrison/ukraine-willliam-hague_b_4933177.html)

''It is simply untrue that the Rada followed the procedure laid down (http://www.president.gov.ua/en/content/chapter05.html) in the Ukrainian constitution to impeach and remove a president from power.
Article 108 of the constitution specifies four circumstances in which a president may cease to exercise power before the end of his term. Those are:

resignation;
inability to exercise his or her powers for reasons of health;
removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;
death.

The procedure for removal from office by impeachment is laid down in Article 111 (http://www.president.gov.ua/en/content/chapter05.html). It is not unlike that required for the impeachment and removal from power of a US president, which could take months.
Thus, Article 111 obliges the Rada to establish a special investigatory commission to formulate charges against the president, seek evidence to justify the charges and come to conclusions about the president's guilt for the Rada to consider. To find the president guilty, at least two-thirds of Rada members must assent.
Prior to a final vote to remove the president from power, the procedure requires

the Constitutional Court of Ukraine to review the case and certify that the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration has been followed, and
the Supreme Court of Ukraine to certify that the acts of which the President is accused are worthy of impeachment.

To remove the president from power, at least three-quarters of Rada members must assent.
The Rada didn't follow this procedure at all. No investigatory commission was established and the Courts were not involved. On 22 February, the Rada simply passed a bill removing President Yanukovych from office.
Furthermore, the bill wasn't even supported by three-quarters of Rada members as required by Article 111 - it was supported by 328 members, when it required 338 (since the Rada has 450 members).''

melmothtw

22nd Mar 2014, 18:09

If I say what I want to say Ronald I'm going to get banned (again), so will leave it there. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Ronald Reagan

23rd Mar 2014, 19:02

Ukraine fiasco marks end of the EU?s imperial dream - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10715805/Ukraine-fiasco-marks-end-of-the-EUs-imperial-dream.html?fb)

smujsmith

23rd Mar 2014, 20:29

Danny #509,

How apt, and appropriate an Aesop's fable is in this instance. I suspect though that whilst enjoying the sound of their own ego's, our western politicians will have little effect , in reality, in "belling" the Putin cat.

Smudge:ok:

ORAC

23rd Mar 2014, 21:57

Finns, Swedes Weigh NATO Membership (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140323/DEFREG01/303230012/Finns-Swedes-Weigh-NATO-Membership)

HELSINKI — Heightened regional tensions, which have grown in the wake of the disputed legality of Crimea’s referendum to join the Russian Federation, have rekindled debate over whether non-aligned Sweden and Finland can protect their sovereignty outside of NATO.

Nordic NATO-aligned neighbors Denmark and Norway have long sought a High North defense solution that includes Finland and Sweden as permanent members of the alliance. This is regarded as the optimum pan-Nordic solution to establish a lasting, credible deterrent against threats to countries in the region.

The Kremlin has, in inter-governmental talks with Finland and Sweden since 2012, urged both countries to forgo NATO membership and join a Russia-led Eastern Alliance, a prospect that neither of the two Nordic states has shown any appetite for.

Against a backdrop of growing support for NATO membership in Sweden, opinion in Finland is slowly shifting toward what the country’s Council of State describes as a “collective defense solution.”............

Russian plans to reopen military bases, and relocate more than 150,000 personnel to facilities near the Finnish and Norwegian borders in coming months, are certain to accelerate the search by Finland and Sweden for long-term “collective defense” solutions............

Danny42C

24th Mar 2014, 00:43

Smudge,

Andrew Marr (BBC1) put it in a nutshell Sunday morning:

"Teddy" Roosevelt advised: "Speak softly, and carry a big stick". Our politicians scream their heads off - and carry a twig !

Danny.

Robert Cooper

24th Mar 2014, 02:38

Danny,

Your question was answered in 181. Nothing has changed since either.

Bob C

rh200

24th Mar 2014, 04:22

Finns, Swedes Weigh NATO Membership (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140323/DEFREG01/303230012/Finns-Swedes-Weigh-NATO-Membership)

If one was a conspirocy theorist one would say the US is letting the whole Ukraine thing go for a bit to serve as an example. Unless your a card caring member of NATO, we won't be there for you!

LS-4

24th Mar 2014, 08:40

The Kremlin has, in inter-governmental talks with Finland and Sweden since 2012, urged both countries to forgo NATO membership and join a Russia-led Eastern Alliance, a prospect that neither of the two Nordic states has shown any appetite for.

News to me. I would have been a bit puzzled if either country (especially Sweden) had chosen to go with Russia.

rh200

25th Mar 2014, 11:59

I seem to remember a little country in the middle east being occupied several years ago by its neigbhor and we assembled a coalition of the willing to evict them. If Putin goes further and decides that the Ukraine belongs to him should we not do the same.:E

Three ways NATO can bolster Ukraine?s security - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/three-ways-nato-can-bolster-ukraines-security/2014/03/24/452e80fa-b369-11e3-8020-b2d790b3c9e1_story.html?hpid=z3)

Obama administration offered uniforms and military meals.

Some how I don't think uniforms and meals are going to cut it for the Ukrainians.

NutLoose

25th Mar 2014, 12:31

It won't, and neither will pussyfooting around the edge of sanctions either, you have to put in place those sanctions that will effect them and accept the pain it causes to yourselves as well.

The "and we will now put in more sanctions if you do not stop" is not bothering him in the slightest.

Personally I think taking the threat of Military action off the table early on was an error, you might now have a twig instead of a big stick, but the threat of that twig whilst on the table is at least a deterrent that push and it could turn really ugly really fast, even if you never intend to use that option.

awblain

25th Mar 2014, 12:34

A coalition of the willing to Ukraine?

Not unless Ukraine discovers gas on its territory rather than just in a pipe that runs across its territory. And, the approval for the coalition would run hard against a veto from the perpetrator in the Security Council. Ah.. it's just like the good old days….

The baffling thing about the recent Russian assaults on the Ukrainian military bases in Crimea is how unnecessary there were. Ukraine seems to have accepted the reality of Putin's fake referendum and was leaving anyway. Now Putin looks like an obvious bully to everyone rather than just an electoral puppeteer.

NutLoose

25th Mar 2014, 12:48

Gorshenin Institute: Market Opportunities and Challenges for Shale Gas in the EU and Ukraine (http://www.naturalgaseurope.com/shale-gas-market-opportunities-and-challenges-in-the-eu-and-ukraine-4068)

awblain

25th Mar 2014, 13:32

Damn. If only they'd spread that news around a few weeks ago. :)

Although, if the eastern basin is - or is manufactured to be - majority Russian, then the argument of self determination could just shuffle that off to the east in the same complicated, messy but broadly reasonable way as it did for Crimea.

NutLoose

25th Mar 2014, 17:54

Better fill the old tank up

Russian Oil Seen Heading East Not West in Crimea Spat - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-25/russian-oil-seen-heading-east-not-west-in-crimea-spat.html)

henra

26th Mar 2014, 22:15

The irony of this whole mess is that Putin is effectively doing NATO a big Service.
You couldn't create a better PR for joining even if you tried.
When the dust has settled he might find even more Countries around him trying to get into the 'Save Haven' and shying away from Russia.
Invading Neighbours isn't exactly the kind of trust building measure that is the basis for stable long-term relationships of Nations.

I always thought Putin to be a highly rational and clever Guy. This whole saga makes me heavily re-think this assessment.
In the bigger scheme of things he is not doing his cause (Come join the Eastern Alliance against the West) a favor. Short term tactics with detrimental long-term effect. Panicking?

Ronald Reagan

26th Mar 2014, 22:33

Nigel Farage Says EU Has 'Bloody Hands' Over Ukraine Crisis During LBC Debate With Nick Clegg (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/26/nigel-farage-says-eu-has-blood-on-hands-in-ukraine-during-lbc-debate_n_5037811.html)

t43562

26th Mar 2014, 23:07

Within Russia it will make him seem very important. There is a slight distorting effect when you've never got out to see the world that your own bit of it and the events there are of supreme importance. It is my guess that guys like Cde P are playing to the local audience at least as much as overseas because they really have a lot invested in staying in power. An issue of minor importance to the US takes on epic proportions in Russia.

I think fellows like Cde P love any chance to show they've thumbed their noses at the Americans and, further down the list, at Britain. This is essentially because their minions and those who dream of becoming their minions feel inferior to Americans and, down the list, Britons and have to be encouraged to revile something that they are obviously attracted by. He has to give them an example of how he is strong and the people they secretly admire are weak. If you offered them a US passport they'd be off tomorrow but since they are stuck they might as well enjoy chewing on Cde P's sour rasins.

You can see it in Britain where some people claim to hate Americans and then display all the vile arrogance that they accuse Americans of having whilst claiming to have a much better sense of humour and being smug about how modest they are. Meanwhile the same people tend, in my limited experience, to slurp up American TV, films and music. It seems to me that there are manipulative types in the UK who like to encourage all of this because you can't have your serfs admiring someone else and not listening to you.

rh200

26th Mar 2014, 23:43

I thought it looked like Putin was on the wane for a while, might just be the old trick to try and beef up support at home. It usually fails in the long run.

LS-4

27th Mar 2014, 09:09

In an effort to try and understand Russia these days, at least to some degree, I wonder if their experiences from the past 25 years might matter a bit.

For example, Western demands for rapid reforms during the 90s was / is seen by some (many?) Russians as a continuation of the Cold War by other means. NATO expansion, missile defence plans etc. probably haven't helped to moderate that view much. I believe some people call this a "Cold Peace," a term which has re-surfaced now and then, and perhaps especially now.

Assuming that that the annual presidential speeches to the Russian Federal Assembly (English transcripts available at eng.kremlin.ru) over the last ten years or so can be used to tell which policies will be carried out in the future, I believe increasing assertiveness by the Russians was to be expected.

I also wonder if Putin is influenced by Aleksandr Dugin and Eurasianism, and if so, how far is he willing to go? Does he realise that Russia may be hurting in the long run because of all this?

Lonewolf_50

27th Mar 2014, 14:56

blah blah blah missile defence blah blah blah
So you've fallen for the propaganda too, have you?

The integration into the NATO missile defense network is not a threat to a neighbor (Russia). The whole point of the missiles in that integrated system is defense, not attack.

As to NATO expansion being seen as a threat, I can see that in a strategic context if you are a Power viewing other Powers. Understood.

Trouble is, there are nations all over Europe who see Russia as a threat, a local bully, and a difficult to deal with neighbor. So, they do something about it. Russia is not the only nation with a security concern.

Assuming that that the annual presidential speeches to the Russian Federal Assembly (English transcripts available at eng.kremlin.ru) over the last ten years or so can be used to tell which policies will be carried out in the future, I believe increasing assertiveness by the Russians was to be expected.

I also wonder if Putin is influenced by Aleksandr Dugin and Eurasianism, and if so, how far is he willing to go? Does he realise that Russia may be hurting in the long run because of all this?
Well said, concerning the Russian point of view. For my money, one of the great political opportunities missed was the chance to try and talk Russia into eventually joining NATO after the wall fell.

LS-4

27th Mar 2014, 16:29

The integration into the NATO missile defense network is not a threat to a neighbor (Russia). The whole point of the missiles in that integrated system is defense, not attack.

I think the Russians have argued that they see it as a potential threat to their ability to use ICBMs and so on.

As to NATO expansion being seen as a threat, I can see that in a strategic context if you are a Power viewing other Powers. Understood.

AFAIK, Russian authorities tend to view foreign politics as a zero-sum game.

For my money, one of the great political opportunities missed was the chance to try and talk Russia into eventually joining NATO after the wall fell.

I don't know about the Yeltsin period. IIRC, Putin later rejected the idea of applying for membership, thinking that Russia should be invited.

melmothtw

27th Mar 2014, 17:51

(http://apicdn.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew%2F534511-ukraine-crisis-2014-a-27.html&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.co.uk%2F2014%2F03%2F26%2 Fnigel-farage-says-eu-has-blood-on-hands-in-ukraine-during-lbc-debate_n_5037811.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew-57%2F)Nigel Farage Says EU Has 'Bloody Hands' OverUkraine Crisis During LBC Debate With Nick Clegg (http://apicdn.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew%2F534511-ukraine-crisis-2014-a-27.html&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.co.uk%2F2014%2F03%2F26%2 Fnigel-farage-says-eu-has-blood-on-hands-in-ukraine-during-lbc-debate_n_5037811.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew-57%2F) (http://apicdn.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew%2F534511-ukraine-crisis-2014-a-27.html&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.co.uk%2F2014%2F03%2F26%2 Fnigel-farage-says-eu-has-blood-on-hands-in-ukraine-during-lbc-debate_n_5037811.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew-57%2F)

"Nigel Farage says" told me all I need to know about that particular link....

Ronald Reagan

27th Mar 2014, 18:04

I know melmothtw, Farage is the best and in fact only good politician in Britain. What a brilliant man he is.

ORAC

27th Mar 2014, 18:26

I know melmothtw, Farage is the best and in fact only good politician in Britain it's a close run thing........

rh200

28th Mar 2014, 00:00

A rapid Russian build-up of tanks and troops with tough talk from President Vladmir Putin raises fears war with Ukraine could be imminent | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/world/a-rapid-russian-buildup-of-tanks-and-troops-with-tough-talk-from-president-vladmir-putin-raises-fears-war-with-ukraine-could-be-imminent/story-fndir2ev-1226867240935)

It seems that things might be getting a bit more stressful.

So if you are a Ukrainian military strategist, what would be thinking now? Apart from the "Oh we are so screwed".

If you are going to go down, it might as well be fighting. So what out of the box thinking could you do do make sure Putin gets blood nose and take the shine of his victory? The west is not going to help, so is anything is on the table?

They may not have much, but I'm think suiciide run to the Kremlin, not sur e of the range of there ground attack aircraft. Suicide run against a few nuclear power stations, should be enough to have to pull resources to deal with the issue.

NutLoose

28th Mar 2014, 12:36

Well I would doubt they would want a repercussion of Chenobyl, but they do have lots of reactors near the border, they called on the assistance of the world to ensure their continuing safety when this all cracked off.

They do however have the main Russian gas pipelines flowing through the country which supplys 80% of the Russian gas and could pretty much destroy the infrastructure to that as they retreated, a bit like Saddam and the oilfields. That would hurt Russia economically in the short term. Surprised they haven't used that as a bargaining chip on both sides, telling Europe if they get invaded and no one helps they will destroy it.

Whenurhappy

28th Mar 2014, 12:54

NATO, after a huge degree of internal discussion and political wrangling, offered Russian particpation in the NATO BMD system, which is optomised to protect Europe from weapons launched from the Middle East. Clearly, being able to use sensors placed in Southern Russia would increase SA and warning times, and would be similarly beneficial for Russia. This offer was made at the Detroit Summit three years ago in an effort to demonstrate this wasn't an anti-Russian system, but the invitation to participate was stiffly ignored by Russia. Similarly NATO declared - and adopted the equivalent of an 'Open Skies' regime to demonstrate to Russia that there were/are now no NATO plans about defence against a Russian attack. More fools us, perhaps.

I've seen no media reporting highlighting this fact; instead we are seeing the creeping acceptance of the 'victimisation' of Russia - such as the lost of Soviet prestige when they came out of the wrong end of the Cold War, reforms 'forced upon' them in the 1990s, former Soviet territories 'taken over' by the West, the unfair 'giving' of Crimea to Ukraine SSR in c 1956, NATO on their borders, comparison with Falklands/Iraq/Afghanistan/Scotland etc etc.

B&llocks, I say. None of this justifies the annexation of Crimea in the way that was executed. For those still in, have a look at the UNCLAS cross-Government LTT on Ukraine. They are particularly well-written and very, very good at demolishing the arguments of 'Well, we went into Iraq...what's the difference?' etc. Pity these arguments aren't aired as much as they should be.

rh200

28th Mar 2014, 13:25

They do however have the main Russian gas pipeline

Pipe lines are easily replacable. I'm thinking something that will take a while to repair.

Pity some of the yuppie European countries were on their border.

1) Make a premptive annoucment to the population that in the case of Russian invasion the populations should leave the citys and head for the European union and claim assylum. This would do two things, one clog up the roads to make it harder for Russian armor to move. And next make the EU p!ss their pants and maybe try to prevent it getting that far in the first place.

2) In case that fails, don't bother using your airforce to attack the invasion force, use it to attack targets in Russia. Nuclear power stations, the Kremlin if possible, and Natural gas plants. Along with anything else that can be used for major logistics.

Now thats all bull from someone who doesn't have a clue, but hay its a nice thought.

Heathrow Harry

28th Mar 2014, 15:52

pipelines are easily REPAIRABLE but building a new one takes years

playing silly buggers with Russian gas is just giving Mr Putin a ready made excuse - he'd be intervening to save western pensioners and the poor from the cold

The importation thing now is to stabilise Ukraine and stop the Russians extending the "blood is thicker than treaties" approach elsewhere

Ask the Saudis to go full throttle on oil production and get the Yanks to export shale gas and oil - when the oil price hits $70 the Russians are buggered

LS-4

28th Mar 2014, 21:30

rh200

28th Mar 2014, 22:22

playing silly buggers with Russian gas is just giving Mr Putin a ready made excuse - he'd be intervening to save western pensioners and the poor from the cold

Not saying premptively, Once the troops start rolling across the border in mass. Don't engage in mass as you know your not going to acheive anything. But throw as much as you can at high value targets back in the homeland.

The idea is he may have Ukraine, but it will cost him billions and the infrastructure to compensate for that will be diminished.

pipelines are easily REPAIRABLE but building a new one takes years

Agreed, but I was on the premise you can't stuff a whole pipeline (I could be wrong of course). Hence the processing plants.

ORAC

29th Mar 2014, 06:18

BBC: .........Russia's Vladimir Putin has telephoned President Barack Obama to discuss the US proposal for a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Ukraine........

The Kremlin said in a statement that the Russian president drew Mr Obama's attention to "the continued rampage of extremists" in Kiev and various regions of Ukraine. It said these individuals were "committing acts of intimidation towards peaceful residents, government authorities and law enforcement agencies... with impunity"........

He also expressed concern at an "effective blockade" of Moldova's separatist region of Trans-Dniester, where Russia has troops.

Pro-Russian politicians there have sent a request asking to join the Russian Federation........

rh200

29th Mar 2014, 10:54

Yep, you yanks are on a real winner with Obama.

http://www.news.com.au/world/breaking-news/us-mulls-giving-missiles-to-syria-rebels/story-e6frfkui-1226868428886

Ukraine, a country that wants to join the EU, NATO, who's armed forces have been exemplary in the current situation, what do they get from Obama, the offer of uniforms and meals.

Islamic rebels (the moderate ones) yep we might get some of the MANPADS, which hey, will end up in extremist hands.

Would think some of them MANPADS would go real well against a Russian invasion force.

He's going to real popular with the Israelis if some go missing and there's an incident. Might find him self on Mossad's list of people aiding terrorism.

rgbrock1

1st Apr 2014, 16:00

A joint NATO-Ukraine Commission statement has condemned the Russian takeover of Crimea and has urged closer cooperation between NATO and Ukraine.

Obviously the battle lines are being drawn. :eek:

NutLoose

1st Apr 2014, 16:32

You get the feeling all this bluster by Russia with troops along the Eastern border is simply to draw the Worlds gaze from the Crimea.

Vendee

1st Apr 2014, 17:05

Was awakened this morning at 05.40 courtesy of nearby RAF Lakenheath. The sound of F15's taking off non stop for 10 minutes was deafening. I later read that 10 F15's were heading to the Baltic area. I just wish they would do it at a more reasonable hour :)

NutLoose

3rd Apr 2014, 19:15

The last post on here is a bit frightening (post 12)

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/535931-r-i-p-simferopol-acc.html

Heathrow Harry

4th Apr 2014, 11:29

"Ukraine, a country that wants to join the EU, NATO, who's armed forces have been exemplary in the current situation, what do they get from Obama, the offer of uniforms and meals."

rh200 - Ukraine is right on Russia's door step and the Russians beleive they had assurances when Germany was re-unified that NATO would not move into the FSU states right up to their borders. They think they've been played for a patsy by the west for 20 years and it's now time to to restore the balance a bit

I presume Australia is going to volunteer it's armed forces to fight in Ukraine?

Aviaservice

4th Apr 2014, 12:45

Ukraine is right on Russia's door step and the Russians beleive they had assurances when Germany was re-unified that NATO would not move into the FSU states right up to their borders. They think they've been played for a patsy by the west for 20 years and it's now time to to restore the balance a bit You are absolutely right! Tnx!

Lonewolf_50

4th Apr 2014, 14:07

I presume Australia is going to volunteer it's armed forces to fight in Ukraine?
Whatever for? Aussies are not in NATO. :confused:

Have Ukraine mobilized yet? I hear some reports that there was a reserve call up, but I don't understand their posture.

peter we

4th Apr 2014, 15:06

Ukraine is right on Russia's door step and the Russians beleive they had assurances when Germany was re-unified that NATO would not move into the FSU states right up to their borders.

Ukraine has never asked to join Nato and its always been out of the question, even now the suggestion is rejected by Nato.

ORAC

4th Apr 2014, 17:15

Ukraine has never asked to join Nato and its always been out of the question Really?

They started discussing membership in 2002 and worked towards it until 2010, when the election of Yanukovych led to the bid being formally abandoned (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10229626). Since his removal and the annexation of Crimea the request has been renewed (http://en.itar-tass.com/world/722234).

So, apart from being totally wrong, what other facts do you have? :hmm:

Ukraine and NATO - an On-Off Relationship (http://www.isn.ethz.ch/Digital-Library/Articles/Special-Feature/Detail/?id=150750&contextid774=150750&contextid775=150747)

Ukraine Dragged Into NATO (http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-dragged-into-nato/31990) - Voice of Russia and Stop NATO 20 July 2012

Heathrow Harry

5th Apr 2014, 08:30

"Whatever for? Aussies are not in NATO. :confused:"

then perhaps rh200 (Perth Aus.) shouldn't suggest we get into wars he/she has no intention of helping in...........................

ORAC

5th Apr 2014, 08:54

Any German Ppruners' care to comment?

Streetwise Professor: Not Willing to Sacrifice the Bonus of a Single Frankfurt Banker (http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=8338)

rh200

5th Apr 2014, 11:35

I presume Australia is going to volunteer it's armed forces to fight in Ukraine?

I wouldn't have an issue with that, as long as it looks like the Ukranians are trying to do the right thing and keep there extremists under control. Some extra help on their borders and police observers might give the locals the chance to concentrate on some internal matters and get a handle on their extremists.

Whatever for? Aussies are not in NATO.

Whats NATO got to do with it in relation to Australia. We have been involved with several conflicts that had nothing to do with NATO for various reasons.

The current one might actually have some moral imperative. No oil, aggressor who can fight back. The fact that your actually prepared to put it all on the line and for a very high price might go some place to counter the view your only interested in taking on countrys that don't have any real chance of fighting back.

rh200 - Ukraine is right on Russia's door step and the Russians beleive they had assurances when Germany was re-unified that NATO would not move into the FSU states right up to their borders. They think they've been played for a patsy by the west for 20 years and it's now time to to restore the balance a bit

And this is part of the problem, out dated thinking that there are particular countys that belong to them and us. NATO is no threat to Russia, its the economic benefits of progressing countrys that are a threat, in that they don't have to bend over and take it up the @rse from the Russians.

The Russians are still in the past dreaming of empires, all we are doing is encouraging it.

then perhaps rh200 (Perth Aus.) shouldn't suggest we get into wars he/she has no intention of helping in...........................

Believe I made it clear about us participating. One wonders why the Kuwatis where so special.:E

rh200

26th Jun 2014, 05:54

Russia leans on companies to rescue Crimea | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/russia-leans-on-companies-to-rescue-crimea/story-e6frfkur-1226967741021)

Yep, there's a cost to everything.

rh200

30th Jun 2014, 23:36

Crowdfunding helps Ukrainians build ?people?s drone? to aid poorly resourced army | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/06/30/crowdfunding-helps-ukrainians-build-peoples-drone-to-aid-poorly-resourced-army/?intcmp=obnetwork)

Who needs enemy's when you have friends like the US. I mean thats just plain embarrising. If your a rebel in Syria you get a request to congress for 500 million in aid from the Obama.

If your a Ukrainian, what, some uniforms and MRE's. If your in Iraqi as a Shia, nope, we'll take a look, Russia, no problem here's some aircraft.

ORAC

17th Jul 2014, 11:34

Ukraine says jet shot down by missile from Russian plane (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-says-jet-shot-down-by-missile-from-russian-plane-1.2709542)Second plane allegedly hit by missile fired by pro-Russian militants on the ground

An air force fighter jet has been shot down by an air-to-air missile fired from a Russian plane, a spokesman for Ukraine's Security Council said Thursday.

Andrei Lysenko also said Ukrainian troops had been fired upon by missiles from a village just inside Russia. Lysenko said in a televised briefing that the pilot of the Sukhoi-25 jet that was hit on Wednesday evening was forced to bail out after his jet was shot down. He provided no further details.

Pro-Russia rebels, meanwhile, claimed responsibility for strikes Wednesday on two Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 jets. The Defence Ministry said the second jet was hit by a portable surface-to-air missile, but added the pilot was unscathed and managed to land his plane safely......

On Monday, Ukraine said one of its military transport planes carrying eight people was shot down by a missile fired from Russian territory. Security Service chief Valentyn Nalyvaichenko said he had "unconditional evidence" that Russia was involved in downing the craft. Rebels claimed to have shot that plane down.......

ORAC

17th Jul 2014, 20:33

Korean Air Lines Flight 007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007). Here we go again.....

NutLoose

17th Jul 2014, 22:07

Trevor Loudon's New Zeal Blog » Russian Intelligence Moves Back Into Cuba (http://www.trevorloudon.com/2014/07/russian-intelligence-moves-back-into-cuba/)

ORAC

1st Aug 2014, 08:37

Streetwise Professor: Is Angela Really Frau Ribbentrop*? I Doubt It, But We Spy Just to Make Sure (http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=8639)

*Ribbentrop Pact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact)

Defense News: NATO: Number of Russian Troops on Ukraine Border Rising (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140730/DEFREG01/307300024/NATO-Number-Russian-Troops-Ukraine-Border-Rising)

U.S. Officials: Images Prove Russia Fired Into Ukraine (http://gawker.com/u-s-officials-images-prove-russia-fired-into-ukraine-1611934923/+ballaban)

ORAC

2nd Aug 2014, 21:01

Interest Rises in EU Acquisition of Mistrals Sold to Russia (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140802/DEFREG01/308020013/Interest-Rises-EU-Acquisition-Mistrals-Sold-Russia)

PARIS — The idea that the European Union — not Russia — would acquire two French Mistral-class helicopter carriers already sold to Moscow is gaining ground as the West adopted a ban against future arms deals to Russia, and the energy and financial sectors, analysts said......

Wander00

2nd Aug 2014, 21:23

To be called QE and PoW?.........hat, coat.............Maybe "Sarkozy" and "Allende" or "Merkel"! (Or even "Dave"!)

rh200

2nd Aug 2014, 22:33

How about the EU then donate one to the UN then they can be called the Costa Concordia and the Titanic.

Hangarshuffle

3rd Aug 2014, 07:34

For a variety of historical and practical reasons I always think of August as the most dangerous of months for modern mankind. And now its upon us. Hundreds are now dead from this conflict already, with further savage fighting now imminent. An entirely neutral airliner has been blasted from the sky, its occupants savagely killed and many of them left to rot on the ground.
I truly hope and pray the worlds political and military leaders can get their collective heads together and bring a peaceful solution to this here and now.
And with the latest mad comments about Russia from our Conservative Party leader(s), I pray for peace every day.
But as I thought earlier in the year, this is going to end in disaster because we simply are not up to it. We are not up to collectively keeping the peace in the world. We, collectively as a species just don't try hard enough at it.
Enjoy the relative peace and calm while you all can.

rh200

3rd Aug 2014, 08:18

And with the latest mad comments about Russia from our Conservative Party leader(s)

Its all talk and no action, Putin just laughs at it. What is really needed is a coalition western task force of a 100000 troops or so, and armor with the usual assortmant of aircover to go in and "conduct exercises" at the invitation of the Ukraine. Now that would wipe the smile of Vlad's face.

gsa

3rd Aug 2014, 10:41

Its all talk and no action, Putin just laughs at it. What is really needed is a coalition western task force of a 100000 troops or so, and armor with the usual assortmant of aircover to go in and "conduct exercises" at the invitation of the Ukraine. Now that would wipe the smile of Vlad's face.

And he wouldn't be pissing himself laughing at the couple of years to put that lot together.

NutLoose

3rd Aug 2014, 13:51

At least we'd have the Germans to give is directions back to Berlin..

ShotOne

3rd Aug 2014, 22:07

100,000 troops to exercise in Ukraine.? In what way would that serve our national interest? Why not get Angela to stage a Barbarossa rerun while we're at it.

Ronald Reagan

3rd Aug 2014, 22:52

The Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity : Why Won?t Obama Just Leave Ukraine Alone? (http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/august/03/why-won%E2%80%99t-obama-just-leave-ukraine-alone.aspx)

West Coast

4th Aug 2014, 00:56

Ron

Your link might as well be named bat sh!t crazy institute.

Every time Ron Paul opens his mouth WRT international affairs, I dislike him more.

rh200

4th Aug 2014, 01:34

In what way would that serve our national interest?

Probably the same way that the pollys are just coming to the conclusion that Russia is still a threat, and they have dropped the ball. So we can stick our heads up our @rse just like we have done before and say, okay not our problem, until it happens to another, opps, then another, then we are forced into it.

It always starts out small, nip the fire in the butt whilst its small, just be very careful about what your throwing on it.

melmothtw

4th Aug 2014, 10:58

RR, posting links to half-wits Ron Paul and (previously) to Nigel Farage does not in any away further your 'argument' with regards to Putin and Ukraine.

Ronald Reagan

4th Aug 2014, 10:59

West Coast, Ron Paul is a genius. If he or someone like him could get elected as President we might at last get a more logical approach to the problems of the world from Washington. As things stand now the politicians in Washington are the worlds worst rogue regime.

rh200, if the Russians want to take back all that was theirs until around 1990 then I really don't see the problem. Besides they are really acting to stop continued expansion into their sphere of influence. Right now we are talking about an area of land that was actually part of Russia less than a hundred years ago, many of the people wish they were part of Russia now. Maybe not legal BUT hardly the crime of the century, guess that would be Iraq with Libya being number two. You can't blame Moscow for either of those but Washington and London for the first, Washington, London and Paris for the second. You need to take a different view as to who the most dangerous governments are.

Ronald Reagan

4th Aug 2014, 11:00

Mel, they are the best politicians in the west. Do you prefer Blair, Brown, Cameron, Hague, Clegg or Milliband?

Ronald Reagan

4th Aug 2014, 11:58

Over 400 Ukrainian soldiers flee to Russia, ask for refuge - YouTube (http://youtu.be/E-OsrCkXTNY)

t43562

4th Aug 2014, 12:22

That RR seems to like Nige is a big black mark on Nige.

melmothtw

4th Aug 2014, 12:41

You're not wrong t43562.

I'm curious as to what your motiviation is to be posting all these links Ronald? You must know that (for the most part at least) folks here see through you and understand who/what you are.

I can post links too Russia?s top 80 lies about Ukraine - Los Angeles Homeland Security | Examiner.com (http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-80-lies-about-ukraine) and I draw your attention to the third and fourth paragraphs:

Elaborate troll farms (http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america) employ hundreds of paid trolls (http://www.novayagazeta.ru/politics/59889.html), hired to spread deceptive imagery and deliberately false information. They are also tasked with attacking activists, flooding comment sections of news articles (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/04/pro-russia-trolls-ukraine-guardian-online) to promote Kremlin’s worldview and praise Russia’s political leadership. Russia’s mainstream media reporting often uses social media postings as its primary sources.

Since Russia’s information war against Ukraine is multifaceted, it’s important to recognize and address all of its manifestations, including not only the mainstream media, but also bloggers and trolls. Together, they work to infect public opinion, spreading hatred and war-mongering.

Ronald Reagan

4th Aug 2014, 12:50

If you want to talk about a propaganda war Mel you only need look at the west, the western regime lies about Iraq, remember WMD? The threat Saddam was supposed to be, all lies. Then there was Libya, remember it was not about regime change! What happened?!
Basically western governments have lied through their teeth. You cannot believe or trust a word they have to say.
More and more of the civilian population in the west can see the truth. Evidence of this would be when the west planned to attack Syria but public opposition to such a war was so great the western politicians buckled under the pressure.
If the west had attacked Syria then likely ISIS would be even stronger and control even more territory than it does now.
More and more people see nations like Russia, China, India and Brazil offering a more logical and peaceful long term world view than Washington and silly people like Obama, Kerry or Clinton.

melmothtw

4th Aug 2014, 13:06

Yes, Western governments (and all governments) lie and manipulate the facts Ronald. The difference is, however, that we in the West generally don't slavishly follow what our leaders tell us (as seems to be the case with most in Russia with regard to Putin right now), but instead doubt and question what we are told almost as a matter of routine.

We in the West are able to balance what Putin is saying against what our own leaders are saying, and come to a reasoned understanding of the situation (as much as is possible) based on a balance of probabilities. In answer to your next point about us receiving our information through the prism of an unbalanced and biased media, I'd suggest that 'our' journalists are far more independent and objective than the Kremlin mouthpieces and cheerleaders we see on RT or CCTV or the like, who's sole raison d'etre appears to be 'The West says/believes this, so we say/believe the opposite'.

And seeing as you brought Syria up, understand that the sole reason Putin opposed plans to attack Assad (and Ghadaffi too) was all about national self-interest and protecting arms sales. Who knows what might have happened had the West intervened at the beginning of the civil war in Syria, when the nature of the conflict was still mainly secular and ISIS had not yet established itself on the ground to the extent that it now has. But that's a different argument from what's going on in Ukraine now.

Ronald Reagan

4th Aug 2014, 13:22

No Mel, all these things are linked, the desire of the west to be in control no matter what the cost. One only has to look at the disaster that modern Libya has become or Iraq to clearly see we should not have got involved in either. With Syria the least bad option or dare I say good option would be Assad to take back control of the whole country and for the civil war to end. Syria is better off under Assad, Libya was better off under Gaddafi and Iraq under Saddam.
The western governments have got so much blood on their hands, enough is enough! Someone has to draw a line in the sand and say no more! Putin seems to be that person. Even my Russian friends who disliked Putin think he is doing the right thing with halting western expansionism into Ukraine. They are outraged by western actions. This is a country that is not in our sphere of influence, we have no business getting involved. But as usual our dear leaders have to be ruining yet another nation. If we had not got involved in Ukraine, if Yanukovych had been able to stop the coup against him and remain until the next election then none of this bloodshed would have taken place. Likely there would be no separatists at all and Crimea would be part of Ukraine still. But actions have consequences and the western backed/instigated coup has led to all of this. I would strongly suggest that continued aggression against Russia by the west may end up turning Russia into the enemy many seem to want them to be. They should be very careful what they wish for, many have underestimated Russia and lived to regret it.

melmothtw

4th Aug 2014, 13:30

Ok Ronald.

rh200

4th Aug 2014, 23:51

Besides they are really acting to stop continued expansion into their sphere of influence

RR

The fact that you so blatently push this old "sphere of influence" theme is disturbing. It is an outdated notion, and frankely an obscene one. The fact you can decide that particular soveriegn countries belong to large ones belongs in the twentieth century. The concept is just another theme of the socialogical need for males to be seen to dominate, manifesting it self on political and economic philosophies.

The difference between the west and the bad guys:E. Our goverments will come up with a strategic direction, and yes cherry pick facts. But our media are free to denegrate and counter them with out going "missing".

Also our government organizations leak like a sieve, which acts like a brake, so the truth comes out eventually.

NutLoose

5th Aug 2014, 00:01

RR

Isn't it strange that ever since the wall came down all those ex communist countries have had the ambition to model themselves on the West and not Russia..... That's as far from pushing our sphere of influence as you can get. The wall wasn't toppled from the west but from the other side.

Wander00

5th Aug 2014, 08:13

NL - one of the most sensible comments on E-W issues I have seen

melmothtw

5th Aug 2014, 08:22

Curious also that there is a queue to join NATO, but no queue to re-start the Warsaw Pact. Tells you all you need to know really.

rh200

5th Aug 2014, 10:43

US officials warn Russian troops could move quickly against Ukraine, report says | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08/05/us-officials-warn-russian-troops-could-move-quickly-against-ukraine-report-says/?intcmp=latestnews)

So now they have sh!t loads of troops poised on the border, and now they will have a sh!t load of air power. The Ukraine is stuffed.

I hope they have the b@lls to go down fighting and give the f#$%ers a blood nose.

Ronald Reagan

5th Aug 2014, 10:52

A queue to join NATO is meaningless. It is supposed to be the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, that's it. Sadly its morphed into something else now. Most of the new members are simply excess baggage, they bring very limited military capabilities to NATO but basically give us more territory to defend. adding them to NATO has made war more likely not less. Those eastern nations should have been kept as a loosely aligned buffer zone between east and west.

rh200, to help you understand the concept of spheres of influence, your country Australia is in the American sphere of influence, your government are essentially puppets of Washington. The same with Canada and Britain. Most European nations would be the same. Its all about control, keeping the US Empire going whatever the cost, that's basically what the US military industrial complex is all about. None of this is done for our benefit, we the people mean nothing at all to the leadership.

Sadly the west are bad guys now, after things like Iraq, Libya, Ukraine
and pushing for war in Syria etc. The other side may not be saints but they are compared to Washington.

Ronald Reagan

5th Aug 2014, 10:56

rh200, it might be better if the Russians send in a peace keeping force to protect the innocent civilian population of Eastern Ukraine. More lives will be saved.

Its sad to think that once all these people lived happily together in the Soviet Union and these men would have served side by side in the Soviet military, but now they have been freed, live in a ''better system'' so have been put in a situation by the west where they must kill each other.
Maybe those Soviet times don't seem so bad to many of the people now.

Courtney Mil

5th Aug 2014, 11:15

Oh, Ronald. Does someone give you a script for this stuff or do you think it up yourself? Bring back the Soviet Union, eh? Love it!

NutLoose

5th Aug 2014, 11:31

RR
I see you neatly skirted round my points re the wall.

Those eastern nations should have been kept as a loosely aligned buffer zone between east and west.

Pray tell me why should any Nation have to cower under the threat of any other, remember pre WW2 these were independent Countries that were invaded, they didn't say "hey I'm Polish, Czech or East German, please invade us and liberate us from our Governments and force us to live under a communist regime", they were systematically invaded against their will and taken over.
The wall wasn't erected to keep us out, it was erected to keep them in, the guard towers were not there to kill the populace on this side of the wall, but to prevent those on the other side crossing to the West, but it has taken many years and the collapse of the Soviet Union to put that spectre to bed.
The problem being with all these supporter's of Putin is their age, the majority never lived under the Communist ideal and as such have no idea as to what a Cold war USSR was like, those that did no doubt held the power and lived a life far better than the average man on the street, the nearest comparison has to be North Korea, living in a feudal dictatorship where food is scarce and you fear for that knock on the door. Even Russia has moved away from that and started to embrace the Western way of life, I bet you the majority of the Russian populace faced with returning to the depravation of the cold war would vote to stay as is.

It might be better if the Russians send in a peace keeping force to protect the innocent civilian population of Eastern Ukraine. More lives will be saved.

Errrr you mean the terrorists and thugs, many actually from Russia that took control. Is it not for the Country to protect its own citizens, exactly what the Ukraine is doing, trying to liberate its civilian populace caught up in this, you can parade several armed men on TV, but the majority of the population no doubt does not want this and are at home cowering in fear.

NATO but basically give us more territory to defend. adding them to NATO has made war more likely not less.

If joining NATO made the Country and NATO weaker, why is Putin so against it........ simply because its a "my big brother scenario" you don't want to get in a fight where Nato is involved, he knows if the Country was part of NATO then NATO would have to commit to defending that Country, something he definately does not want happening anytime soon because his ambitions would be screwed..

I know where i would prefer to live, and by the amounts of immigrants and those joining the EU, so do a lot of the countries of the old Communist states. If Russia is such a eutopia, then why haven't you embraced the lifestyle and moved there, or is it you would miss your pasties?

.

Courtney Mil

5th Aug 2014, 11:59

Hard to see how anyone could argue with that, but I suspect we might find out.

melmothtw

5th Aug 2014, 12:02

As soon as his new script is faxed through.

Ronald Reagan

5th Aug 2014, 12:17

I see you ignore my points about Iraq, Libya and Syria to make the western regimes sound like saints. Lets just airbrush their crimes out of existence as if they never happened!

No Mel, the people of eastern Ukraine were furious when the leader they elected (Yanukovych) was ousted in the western coup. Many of them decided if the western part of the country can oust the leader they supported then they can rise up and cease to be part of Ukraine, either being a new independent nation or joining Russia. Russia should do more to help save the people of eastern Ukraine from Kiev. Kiev has now killed huge numbers of civilians. Kiev and their so called military are very much in the wrong here. Washington, London, Paris and the EU are in the wrong, NATO is in the wrong. If it were not for the western governments we might actually be able to have peace in this world.

I am not so sure NATO would go to war to protect any former eastern block nation, they might simply run. Going by the wests recent track record and distinct lack of success in the wars its engaged in going to war with Russia might be a very bad idea.

At least during the USSR the people of Ukraine lived in peace. But with the wests desire to control Ukraine they have caused all of this bloodshed.
Same with Yugoslavia, if only that had held together.

Do you guys get your scripts from the White House, Downing Street or Brussels?

NutLoose

5th Aug 2014, 12:26

At least during the USSR the people of Ukraine lived in peace

Happy families then, well bar these guys that is

Seven million died in the 'forgotten' holocaust - Eric Margolis (http://www.ukemonde.com/genocide/margolisholocaust.html)

Ronald Reagan

5th Aug 2014, 12:27

I should also say that Russian forces operating in what is now Eastern Ukraine is not really an invasion, as this area used to be part of Russia. Novorossiya should likely be part of Russia again. It would simply be a case of normalising borders in a logical way thus bringing the Russian speaking people back into Russia. They certainly did the right thing with Crimea.

t43562

5th Aug 2014, 12:30

Western countries are at least saints to their own people and it's obviously widely accepted because people want to go there. Charity at home is a good start.

melmothtw

5th Aug 2014, 12:33

I'm not going to argue with you about Iraq (few in the West would, because we don't robotically believe what our leaders tell us), but what was the crime in Libya?

The West intervened against Ghadaffi to prevent a bloodbath on Benghazi. Ghadaffi's tanks were on the doorstep of that city, and he had publicly vowed to 'exterminate the rats' that lived there. IMHO, it would have been a crime not to have intervened.

As for Syria, I don't know where you're getting your information from (scrub that, RT obviously) but you'll do well to remember that the West has not intervened there, so again - where is the crime of which you speak?

If you want to talk about criminal actions, let's discuss Crimea, Georgia, Chechnya by all means.

Yanukovych was toppled in a popular uprising, not in a coup (the armed forces played no part). It's curious how you promote the rights of those in Eastern Ukraine to separate and join Russia, when to call for the same thing in Russia is now punishable by 5 years imprisonment (a law that Putin introduced as he was annexing Crimea!!).

And as for 'buffer states' along the border with Russia, aside from the obvious that this presupposes that nations do not have the right to choose their own alliances, NATO has always bordered up against the Soviet Union/Russia (Turkey anyone?) so why the big issue with it now?

Apart from all that, I really do admire your Orwellian double-speak - "But with the Wests desire to control Ukraine..." Pay attention Ronald, there are no Western troops in Ukraine, there are no Western tanks in Ukraine, there are no Western missile systems in Ukraine, the West is not shelling Ukraine, the West is not annexing parts of Ukraine...

As for, "It would simply be a case of normalising borders in a logical way thus bringing the Russian speaking people back into Russia," that sounds very much like an argument that was put forward in the 1930s about German speakers, no?

I could go on, but you tire me.

rh200

5th Aug 2014, 12:49

My god, Ronald, what a pile of propaganda. Spheres of influence are what the old guard are trying to keep going, the rest of us are trying to move on.

You say all the additions makes NATO weaker as there is more territory to defend, from whom, Russia?

The only real reason it exists is to defend against bullies. As for the stuff about the yanks sphere of influence, what drugs are you on? The Europeans tell the yanks to get stuffed regularly, some sphere of influence. The poms and us have also on numerous occasions.

The fact is, Russia is a decrepit failed state that looks like failing quicker than the Yanks are at the moment. Hence Putin is resorting back to the tried and true method of bullying and nationalism to stir up support.

The Chinese have been progressing forward in leaps and bounds, Russia could to if they just tried evolving.

Ronald Reagan

5th Aug 2014, 12:53

Mel go and put the television on, see what is going in on Libya now, that's thanks to us. No the crime was us attacking Libya, Gaddafi was at war with terrorists, many of them now control huge chunks of the country!
It would have been far better for the cause of peace and stability for us to not get involved or even ensure Gaddafi remained in power as a valued fighter in the war against terrorism. Right now wherever the west goes you end up with groups like ISIS taking over. Its almost as if our leaders want it that way, spreading Al Qaeda and ISIS all over the region.

Some say the west caused the initial uprising in Libya and Syria, the same with Ukraine. Most likely after Russia managed to save Syria from western attack western leaders were enraged their bloodlust had not been satisfied so set their sights on Ukraine, to get Yanukovych to join them, when he refused he was removed, if he had tried to hang onto power by doing what Kiev is doing to put down the uprising in the east there would have been fake uproar from the western regimes. Now though their puppets are doing the killing its all fine as far as western leaders are concerned. Remember how it works, if the killing is done by Gaddafi, Assad, Saddam, Yanukovych then = bad, if done by Israel or the new regime in Kiev then = good! Those double standards sicken me.

Crimea, Georgia, Chechnya were mainly internal issues. Crimea was Russian and is Russian again, I pointed it out to you a few posts back. Georgia was flirting with NATO which is a no, no. Chechnya is a war on terror much like the west being in Afghanistan.

There are currently NATO forces in other eastern block nations, as far as Russia is concerned they will be in Ukraine next! They won't tolerate that. The sooner NATO is dissolved the better. It was supposed to stop war but actually makes war more likely.

Ronald Reagan

5th Aug 2014, 13:02

Our leaders are Washington's puppets rh200, you know it as well as I do. Even Merkel despite how the US treats her dare not cross them, she obeys her masters at the end of the day offering only mock outrage against US actions in Germany. If she really wanted to she could break away from NATO and order the removal of all US forces from Germany. But she dare not cross her masters.

I agree with one thing you say rh200. About China. I hope they become the dominant power on Earth, they might be the ones who can finally change Washington's warmongering ways. Also with Russia and China very close it sounds like an incredibly powerful alliance. With India and Brazil along with others moving in that direction to it shows who the future belongs to. Your country and mine should join that alliance, break away from Washington who are the real bullies. Then at last we can have peace.

I mostly stick up for Russia, but I think it will be China and India who end up leading the world, the fear that must create in Washington gives me great joy! Its likely why Moscow is very close to both China and India. Just hope Washington don't end up starting World War 3 with China and India in a desperate attempt to remain number one.

melmothtw

5th Aug 2014, 13:05

that's thanks to us

You mean the West or Russia, as I really can't tell with you anymore?

Gaddafi was at war with terrorists

Was he really Ronald? So the Libyan Air Force pilots who defected did so because they didn't want to drop bombs on terrorists, or because they didn't want to drop bombs on innocent civilians?

I can't argue with you that the whole situation there is a clusterf#ck right now, but you have to fight what's infront of you, and at the time that NATO went to war (under a UN mandate mind), it was to prevent a massacre of civilians.

Some say the west caused the initial uprising in Libya and Syria, the same with Ukraine.

By 'some' you mean 'RT', right?

Crimea, Georgia, Chechnya were mainly internal issues. Crimea was Russian and is Russian again, I pointed it out to you a few posts back. Georgia was flirting with NATO which is a no, no. Chechnya is a war on terror much like the west being in Afghanistan.

I think I've already made my views clear on this imperialist and neo-colonialist argument (and incidentally. the West was in Afghanistan with Russian morale and materiel support).

There are currently NATO forces in other eastern block nations...

Get with the programme Ronald, there is no Eastern Bloc, and hasn't been since 1989!!

Ronald Reagan

5th Aug 2014, 14:22

RT is the best news media out there, also media from China, Iran and Syria can be considered better than the western propaganda machine of warmongering and lies. You would do well to inform yourself better by watching some of them Mel. Instead you rely on a kind of Wikipedia!!!!!!!!

Here is Roland Dumas a former French Foreign Minister in the video actually saying it.
Ex-French foreign minister Roland Dumas claims British preparation of Syrian war in Syria (http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/syria/294/ex-french-foreign-minister-roland-dumas-claims-british-preparation-of-syrian-war/19689/)

PressTV - UK planned war on Syria before unrest began: French ex-foreign minister (http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/06/16/309276/uk-planned-war-on-syria-before-unrest/)

Roland Dumas, Former French Foreign Minister: ?England prepared, conceived, organized the invasion of the ?rebels? in Syria over 2 years ago? ~~~ Roland Dumas, ancien ministre français des Affaires étrangères: «L?Angleterre a préparé, conçu, organisé (http://syrianfreepress.wordpress.com/2013/06/16/18287/)

Ronald Reagan

5th Aug 2014, 14:25

'Save us Nigel Farage!' Leader of east Ukraine's pro-Moscow separatist movement issues bizarre plea for help to Ukip leader | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2605987/Save-Nigel-Farage-Leader-east-Ukraines-pro-Moscow-separatist-movement-issues-bizarre-plea-help-Ukip-leader.html)

melmothtw

5th Aug 2014, 14:33

Instead you rely on a kind of Wikipedia!!!!!!!!

And then you send me a link to Wikileaks video!!!!!!!!!

I don't speak French, but going by the subtitles he says; "..by asking , that they were preparing something in Syria." Well, so long as it's his [I]opinion I guess that proves it.

And he talks about 'England preparing the invasion of the rebels in Syria'. So, if there already were Syrian rebels then that would be after the uprising began then, and not before like you previously said.

I don't think anyone's ever denied that the West had contingency plans for helping the rebels, but that's very different from starting the rebellion as you suggested. And how does any of this relate to Ukraine?

Press TV?! And don't even get me started on the Daily Mail!

You're too funny Ronald.

glad rag

5th Aug 2014, 16:09

RT is the best news media out there

:ok:

NutLoose

5th Aug 2014, 16:24

RT is the best news media out there, also media from China, Iran and Syria can be considered better than the western propaganda machine of warmongering and lies.

I cannot remember when I last saw a Sky Tv, BBC, ITV, Channel 4 or Channel 5 reporter stand up and say I cannot go on telling you these lies from a corrupt regime and promptly resign.... or indeed do similar by releasing a statement... now where did I see that of late? ohhh yes, now I remember, RT.

West Coast

5th Aug 2014, 16:27

Ron, if you look good in a skirt you should apply to RT, they can't seem to hold on to news anchors. They keep quitting.

rh200

5th Aug 2014, 21:11

Actually I like Ronald, its good for a laugh.:p

Courtney Mil

5th Aug 2014, 21:24

Ronald, the only thing that would worry me more about you is if I thought you actually believe the rubbish you spout.

Here's a little thing to help you. Your posts might be slightly more credible if you could write in English. Happy to help with your writing. A couple of thoughts for now:

This is an apostrophe '
This is a comma ,

Citing the media does not prove much. Maybe the events that happened recently, but not much else.

If you post on a western Mil Av web site, don't expect us to be taken in by your very obvious agenda.

Hope that helps.:ok:

Lonewolf_50

5th Aug 2014, 22:07

Courtney, I have noticed that RR mostly operates in "Transmit" mode. I am not sure that there is a "Receive" channel in his R/T kit. :}

Now, if only we could induce a "Standby" mode. :E

Courtney Mil

5th Aug 2014, 22:15

Yeah, good point, well made, LoneWolf. What was I thinking?

West Coast

6th Aug 2014, 00:22

Note that a very similar writing style is noted on another website, Ron appears to enjoy spending time in Russia as well.

glad rag

6th Aug 2014, 17:13

Don't forget his pals in East Ukraine, the ones he won't substantiate. :D

Courtney Mil

6th Aug 2014, 17:20

The Kremlin is terribly slow with the latest post. Perhaps the boss is busy out there posing naked on a horse. Or something.

glad rag

6th Aug 2014, 19:01

There may of course be another, much more sinister, reason of the apparent catching of breath by RR....

Ukraine crisis: Russia could be poised to invade, NATO says - World - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-crisis-russia-could-be-poised-to-invade-nato-says-1.2728720)

"Russia has massed around 20,000 combat-ready troops on Ukraine's border and could use the pretext of a humanitarian mission to invade, NATO said on Wednesday, its starkest warning yet that Moscow could soon mount a ground assault against its neighbour.

With fighting escalating and rebels losing ground in the weeks since a Malaysian airliner was shot down over separatist-held territory, Russia has announced military exercises this week in the border region.

"We're not going to guess what's on Russia's mind, but we can see what Russia is doing on the ground — and that is of great concern. Russia has amassed around 20,000 combat-ready troops on Ukraine's eastern border," NATO spokeswoman Oana Lungescu said in an emailed statement."

melmothtw

6th Aug 2014, 19:39

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/452901349341282306/0kDnx9qI_normal.jpegVladimir Putin@DarthPutinKGB · Aug 4 (https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/496208747807899650)

A few hundred NATO soldiers exercising in Baltics is a dangerous fascist provocation. 15,000 Russian troops on #Ukraine (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ukraine?src=hash)'s border is cool.

ReplyReplied to 0 times (https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/496208747807899650)
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Courtney Mil

6th Aug 2014, 21:31

Mel, your point is good, although I don't quite get all the Twitter stuff - that's my problem. Most important is your point about build-up.

sitigeltfel

7th Aug 2014, 09:27

Putin chucks more toys out of the pram..........

BBC News - Russia hits West with food import ban in sanctions row (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28687172)

ORAC

7th Aug 2014, 09:44

And air routes...

EU Airlines Could Suffer From Russian Airspace Sanctions (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-05/eu-airlines-could-suffer-from-russian-airspace-sanctions.html)

.....Russia is considering its response after EU sanctions led to the suspension of flights at the Dobrolet discount unit of OAO Aeroflot as European companies annulled leasing, insurance and servicing contracts. The grounding is among more visible results of measures aimed at Russian President Vladimir Putin for his support of anti-government separatists in Ukraine. The EU and U.S. President Barack Obama have urged Putin to help curb rebel activities after the downing of Malaysian Air MH17.

Retaliation to the sanctions is being discussed, Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said in a meeting with Aeroflot Deputy Chief Executive Officer Vadim Zingman and Transport Minister Maxim Sokolov, according to a statement yesterday that didn’t specify what the steps might be, leaving carriers to wonder if the Ukraine standoff will ensnare their industry.

Authorities are discussing three possible measure, with a ban on Ukrainian flights across Russia to Asia being considered alongside the charter ban and an artificial lengthening of trans-Siberian routes for scheduled EU airlines to make them less competitive, two people said today, asking not to be named........

Onceapilot

7th Aug 2014, 10:34

Seems little doubt that Russian gov is going to try and split Western economic sanctions with their own brand. Seems to me that they will: do everything possible to stall UN actions, provocate in all diplomatic and military situations where they have influence, attempt to damage all western companies with investment in Russia (BP, write that 20% off now!), stop access to ISS, bump up the price of Russian gas or, have "supply problems" this winter!:eek:
I suspect they might be playing a VERY hard game over the next six months.
BTW, M. Hollande, do not expect to get paid for those boats!:bored:
Just my opinion

OAP

Jollygreengiant64

7th Aug 2014, 10:58

It seems a little petty that some think Russia should not retaliate against these increasing economic sanctions from the west. What did our governments expect would happen? That the Bear would just walk off in a strop? Really I think that Russia has been very measured in it's response compared to what it could easily do.

NutLoose

7th Aug 2014, 11:11

BBC News - Russia hits West with food import ban in sanctions row (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28687172)

Call me old fashioned but what will that achieve, with the West putting restrictions on the East hopefully making sanctions start to be felt across the Country, isn't all Putin is doing is aiding the West in their aims by increasing those sanctions already felt upon themselves ??

I thought the idea was to make things harder to come by in a Country, so much so you start to get grumblings from the people and those close to Putin against him....
When Boris and Doris wake up in the morning and find their bowl of Cherrios are no longer there, the only person they can blame for that is Putin as no one else is stopping their supply...
Hopefully he will turn all their shops back into a Soviet style store with three or four sparse goods on the shelf, that will open a few eyes in Russia.

I always thought the sanctions should be on items that Russia sells to the West, so the West would feel the pressure, not the other way around, his one large commodity there is gas, but stop that and his Countries growth wuld rapidly die a death.. I can live without Caviar and Genuine Vodka. I feel for the Polish apple producers though.`

t43562

7th Aug 2014, 12:15

Since the west's sanctions on Russia are targeted at the elite they won't generate the internal emotion that drives people to band together against foreign oppression that Putain wants. So he has to make the whole thing real for "the people" by banning western stuff himself. But not motor cars or anything that his elite buddies would miss - only food that ordinary people won't be able to buy now.

glad rag

7th Aug 2014, 13:33

melmothtw

7th Aug 2014, 14:11

Now where's rr to argue Putins corner?

I fear his masters were displeased at us blowing his cover, and he's now languishing in the gulag.

Willard Whyte

7th Aug 2014, 14:29

I would guess Putin's angle is that by banning the goods produced by the Evil Capitalist West (©) he is hitting our companies' profits. That's how I'd think he'd pitch it to his, allegedly, loyal populace (~83% approval?) anyway: whip up yet more anti-Western 'we're all in this together' sentiment.

The alternative is that as he's got the media in his hands anyway, he could just invert the truth and claim the absence of Western goods are part of our sanctions.

Stanwell

7th Aug 2014, 15:55

...Which he will do.
Stay tuned - I think our cunning fox is losing it... "unless I'm very much mistaken".

ORAC

7th Aug 2014, 17:06

Putin's done a Scargill - he's set up a confrontation where his only real weapon is gas - in the middle of one of a hot summer and when all European gas and LNG stocks are at all time highs. Interesting to see what comes next....

Vladimir Putin's pointless conflict with Europe leaves it a vassal of China (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/11017413/Vladimir-Putins-pointless-conflict-with-Europe-leaves-it-a-vassal-of-China.html)

The world faces a moment of maximum danger in Ukraine. Vladimir Putin has perhaps 72 hours to decide whether to launch a full invasion of the Donbass, or accept defeat and let the Ukrainian military crush his proxy forces. Nato officials say Russia has massed 20,000 troops in battle-readiness near the border, backed by Spetsnaz commandos, tanks and aircraft. Vehicles have been marked with peace-keeper labels already. Nato sees every sign that the Kremlin intends to disguise an attack as a "humanitarian mission".

This is more serious than the Russian invasion of Afghanistan in 1980. That was a "colonial war". The Soviet Union was a careful, status quo power in its final decades. It held captive nations but did not overrun new borders in Europe. Mr Putin is expansionist, and far less predictable. He is, in any case, captive to the chauvinist fever that he has so successfully stoked. He has been clear from the outset that he will deploy any means necessary to bring Ukraine back into Russia's orbit. Only war can now achieve this, since all else has failed, and since he has turned a friendly Ukraine into an enemy by his actions. The awful implications of this are at last starting to hit the markets.

"People thought that Russia was just playing a game of brinkmanship,and that pragmatism would prevail in the end. There is real fear now that this will spin out of control. Nothing cannot be excluded at this point, even a cut-off in oil and gas," said Chris Weafer, from Macro Advisory in Moscow. Yields on 10-year rouble bonds have jumped to 9.7pc, up 130 basis points since June. The sanctioned bank VTB is up 180 points in a month. A liquidity crunch is rapidly taking hold across the financial system. "The market is shut. Not a single Russian entity has been able to borrow anything in dollars, euro or yen since early July," said Mr Weafer.

The Kremlin's gamble has gone horribly wrong. The eastern regions of Ukraine have failed to rise in mass support for Putin's front organisations, led by political operatives from Moscow, and patently run by the Russian security apparatus (FSB/GRU) as even Russian newspapers admit. The latest report by the United Nations accuses these units of "eggregious abuses", carrying out systematic intimidation through torture and execution.

Mr Putin has failed equally to drive a wedge between America and Europe, or to paralyse the EU by playing off one country against another. Germany has not cut a special deal, though its 6,000 companies in Russia are on the frontline. It has gone beyond the EU measures, blocking a €100m export of combat training kit by Rheinmetall. Cyprus, Bulgaria, Hungary and Austria quietly towed the EU line on "Tier 3" sanctions. None dared to veto measures that shut Russia's banks out of global finance, and that block technology needed to open up Russia's oil and gas fields in the Arctic or the shale reserves of the Bazhenov Basin.

President Barack Obama's slow, methodical escalation suits the complicated chemistry of Europe, the region that will pay the economic price. There would have been a trans-Atlantic crisis if the hotheads in Washington had prevailed. Mr Putin now faces draconian sanctions from the US, EU, Japan, Canada and Australia together. He can strike back by asymmetric means - perhaps a cyberattack - but tit-for-tat retaliation can achieve nothing. There is no equivalence. Russia's economy is no bigger than California's. This is an economic showdown between a $40 trillion power structure, and a $2 trillion producer of raw materials that has hollowed out its industrial core.

The new arsenal of sanctions refined by a cell at the US Treasury - already used with crisp effect against nine countries - is nothing like the blunt toolkit of the 1980s or 1990s. Nor can Russia retreat into Soviet autarky. It is locked into global finance. The International Energy Agency says Russia needs to invest $100bn a year for two decades just to stop its oil and gas output declining. Russian companies and state bodies owe $610bn in foreign currencies. They must repay $84bn by the end of the year, and $10bn a month thereafter. There is no immediate crisis. Russian companies have $130bn of cash holdings. The central bank has promised to deploy its $470bn of foreign reserves as second line of defence. Russia can muddle through for a while, depending on the pace of capital flight. At best it is slow suffocation.

European officials calculate that Mr Putin will not dare to cut off energy supplies, since to do so would bring the Russian state to its knees within months. But even if he tried - as a shock tactic - it would not achieve much. Oil can be obtained anywhere. Europe's gas inventories have risen to 81pc of capacity, up from 46pc in March. Britain is at 94pc. There is a sudden glut of liquefied natural gas in Asia that has caused prices to fall from more than $20 per million BTU earlier this year to $10.50. The LNG is being diverted to Europe, landing in Britain at just $6.50. Japan has just given the go-ahead for two nuclear reactors to restart in October, with seven likely by the end of the year. Koreans are also firing up closed nuclear reactors. All this frees up LNG. Whether this is fruit of a co-ordinated strategy, the net effect is that inventories and spare LNG could cover a Russian cut-off for a long time, probably through the winter with rationing. Areas of eastern Europe have no pipeline supply from the West, but "regas" ships could plug some gaps in an emergency. The gas weapon is not what it seems.

The Kremlin is counting on acquiescence from the BRICS quintet as it confronts the West, and counting on capital from China to offset the loss of Western money. This is a pipedream. China's Xi Jinping drove a brutal bargain in May on a future Gazprom pipeline, securing a price near $350 per 1,000 cubic metres that is barely above Russia's production costs.

Pieties aside, the two countries are rivals in central Asia, where China is systematically building pipelines that break Russia's stranglehold. China has large territorial claims on Far Eastern Russia, land seized from the Qing Dynasty in the 19th century. Even if Mr Putin's strategy of a Euro-Asia alliance with China succeeds, it will reduce Russia to a vassal state of China, a supplier of commodities with a development model that dooms it to backwardness. "It is a dangerous illusion. We are witnessing the funeral of Russia,” said Aleksandr Kokh, a former top Kremlin official.

Mr Putin is stuck in a Cold War timewarp, deaf to the shifts in world power. He has been obsessed with an imaginary threat from an ageing, pacifist Europe in slow decline, turning manageable differences into needless conflict. Yet at the same time he is throwing his country at the feet of a rising power that poses a far greater threat in the end, and that will not hesitate to extract the maximum advantage from Russia's self-inflicted weakness.

Mr Putin has misjudged everything. He has decisive force only on the east Europe's battlefield. Ukraine is not a member of Nato, and has no Article V protection. The West has already stated that it will not deploy forces if it is invaded. Novorossiya is his for the taking. It is his last lethal card.

Onceapilot

7th Aug 2014, 18:13

So, therin lies the danger ORAC, the enraged Bear will lash out. The problem is that, a wild animal will fight too the death. It does not know or understand any other way. Dangerous times, IMO.:uhoh:

OAP

ORAC

9th Aug 2014, 08:38

Russian 'humanitarian' convoy nearly enters Ukraine (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/russian-humanitarian-convoy-nearly-enters-ukraine-359967.html)

NutLoose

11th Aug 2014, 16:24

I see Ukraine has apparently said they would welcome a peacekeeper force, but only if its multi-national and unarmed, that sort of screws up Putins plans, he cannot claim his is there for the good of the people when the Ukraine has said they are willing to accept a multi-national force and not an all Russian armed one.
And the last thing Putin wants is foreign troops or peace keepers on the ground exactly where he does not want them.
A new way of taking a country, paint your helmets blue, "invade" and say we come in peace.

Ronald Reagan

11th Aug 2014, 18:19

Russia to send humanitarian convoy to eastern Ukraine - Europe - World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-to-send-humanitarian-convoy-to-ukraine-despite-objections-from-kiev-9662522.html)

Good, looks like a convoy of Russian peacekeepers will go to Eastern Ukraine anyhow.

TEEEJ

11th Aug 2014, 19:53

RR wrote

Good, looks like a convoy of Russian peacekeepers will go to Eastern Ukraine anyhow.

Not a chance. Russia is not going to send unarmed peacekeepers and the Red Cross want nothing to do with a military escort.

But he (Poroshenko) said any humanitarian mission must be "an international one without any military escort" by Russian forces.

Later on August 11, Laurent Corbaz, the head of Red Cross operations for Europe and Central Asia, said in a statement that all sides must guarantee the security of Red Cross workers because the organization will not take part in any aid delivery mission that involves military escorts.

Kyiv Agrees To International Aid Mission Led By Red Cross (http://www.rferl.org/content/kyiv-agrees-red-cross-aid/26525197.html)

Ronald Reagan

11th Aug 2014, 20:33

Hopefully it will be the Russian military acting as peace keepers. Maybe hundreds of tanks, hundreds of aircraft and thousands of troops. No other international forces are required. Its a local situation for the Russians to deal with. Then finally we can have peace in Ukraine. There need to be enough Russian forces to prevent acts of aggression against the separatists by the Ukrainian regime military forces and to protect the civilian population of the region. The people of eastern Ukraine have the right to freedom and independence from Kiev.

glad rag

11th Aug 2014, 20:50

" Bonkers "

rh200

11th Aug 2014, 20:52

BBC News - Ukraine and Russia 'agree' to aid mission to Luhansk (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28743478)

Sorry Ronald, no mighty Russian army invasion yet. Though I am sure Putin has something up his sleeve.

Yep a armed International peace keeping force to control the area would be a good thing whilst elections where hold would be a good thing. The look on Putins face would be priceless. Unfortunately we'll just get an unarmed aid convoy.

NutLoose

11th Aug 2014, 21:00

Ronald Reagan

11th Aug 2014, 21:01

it sickens me to see this violence though, being carried out by the Kiev military and many of these so called ''volunteer'' forces. Not so long ago they and the Russians would have been serving in the same military together, side by side. Now years later we have the current situation, so called progress. I think they were all better off in the days of the USSR. Bringing all the former Soviet nations back into some kind of alliance with Russia might be the best outcome for world peace. Such a shame the USSR came to end really, then we would not be seeing the current loss of life.

Just This Once...

11th Aug 2014, 21:15

You are totally hatstand. The idea that it preferable for a number of countries to be held under a tyranny to preserve an arbitrary and artificial 'world order' is just plain terrible. Just how many millions should be held against their will to preserve your twisted and sick version of peace?

Bonkers.

Ronald Reagan

11th Aug 2014, 22:09

I could say exactly the same about the EU! We don't want to be part of this but are not given a choice. How about NATO? How many people have died due to military interventions launched by NATO and EU nations? Yet we are not given a choice, we are forced to be part of this system, a system of never ending warfare, which has actually led to the current situation in Iraq. Ironically the wests actions in Afghanistan in the 1980s have led to the west being in Afghanistan now. Talk about blow back!
Also a system where the rich grow richer and poor grow poorer. We should have equality.
Here is a video of some of the great soviet achievements:-
Tribute Soviet Union Power Military (anthem) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/atDdtO5gLcM)
(With some lovely music)

Courtney Mil

11th Aug 2014, 22:13

No, Ronald is absolutely right. The USSR was the fairest, democratic society ever. The KGB ran best community policing and there was no corruption or lack of social care. I can't imagine why so many people didn't want them to come and rule our little nations.

RR, can you not see?

Courtney Mil

11th Aug 2014, 22:18

Actually, I do have a question, Ronald. Until about 2 years ago, you were a relatively normal poster here. What changed?

NutLoose

11th Aug 2014, 22:21

And of course free winter holidays in your own holiday gulag camp

Ronald Reagan

11th Aug 2014, 22:22

Soviet Union National Anthem Tribute - YouTube (http://youtu.be/N8iM6XKCXng)

Equality and fairness for all. As one of the peasantry seeing the rich elite who exist in Britain now, dominate and ruin this nation so badly is simply terrible. Maybe the other side were right all along. The current system of short term capitalism based purely upon greed, more and more wealth for the rich is simply unsustainable.
I think Putin is right when he says the end of the Soviet Union was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century. At the very least they kept the west on their toes, great to have a rival to Washington. Since the end of the USSR Washington has been running amok around the globe.

Ronald Reagan

11th Aug 2014, 22:27

Courtney Mil. Libya was the big change for me. I was so against Cameron and co doing that, I could see the disaster that was going to unfold. I was right! Plus the politicians lied, saying it was not about regime change when it was. Then came Syria, now their plans to remove Assad really annoyed me as I could see the outcome. Just imagine they had removed Assad, then we would be dealing with an even stronger ISIS right now! Also seeing the disaster that was Iraq. Then the west sticking its nose into Ukraine recently. These morons we call leaders cannot even run their own nations properly yet they have stick their noses into affairs all over the world that do not concern us. Most of the problems in this world can sadly be traced back to the western governments. All along there has been one voice of reason and logic, that voice is Putin. Just wish he was British and our leader! But if he can give western leaders a few sleepless nights and embarrass them, then GOOD!

NutLoose

11th Aug 2014, 22:28

Equality and fairness for all. As one of the peasantry seeing the rich elite who exist in Britain now

And of course, Stalin, Lenin, Putin, and all the politburo all lived happily ever after with seven or more of their family in their state two bedroomed flat, and shopped Vlad and Spencer's with nothing on the shelves.......... Not.

Communism never works, because those in power deem themselves not equal, at least in the West if we don't like them we can vote them out...

Ronald Reagan

11th Aug 2014, 22:44

We have a fixed two party dictatorship really, the same in the US. Only the main parties can get a look in.

The morons who rule us now for example have in their wisdom binned most of the Tornado GR4 force leaving only 3 squadrons in service. One of those is in Afghanistan, another is preparing to go there, leaving just one squadron! The utter disdain these people show to the military, cut, cut, cut, but using them in more and more wars. I hate ISIS and am in favour of some action against them, but we have nothing left hardly. Up until the early 1990s we had a great military, most of it has been binned since then sadly. (See another good point about the USSR existing) such a ''threat'' justified us keeping larger forces for defence and likely ensured a rapid period of technological advancement with each side trying to out do the other. Maybe we could return to those years, say a nice 500 jet air force! We just need a permanent detente with them, a position of mutual respect.

These so called politicians have basically ruined the middle east.
Compared to them Putin is a genius!

rh200

11th Aug 2014, 23:54

Sad to say it, but I think the day the UK was involved in talking the Ukraine into giving up her Nuclear deterrent in return for protection was not one of our finest hours... With a reduced deterrent this would never have happened.

Yep, it was very naive of them to think we would guarantee their security.

Ronald, you are a laugh, two party dictator ship, evil EU and NATO. Bumbling incompetents are about all that could be said about them.

Its called democracy, and we can have as many parties as we want. We choose the ones we think will bumble though and give us the best deal. Its not pretty, but it sort of works, more than I can say about any of the other systems around.

Courtney Mil

12th Aug 2014, 06:14

Ah, now the arms race was a good thing too, Ronald. You just keep on getting better. :D

melmothtw

12th Aug 2014, 07:26

Until about 2 years ago, you were a relatively normal poster here. What changed?

What changed Courtney was that this particular sleeper member was activated by his Kremlin handlers.

Courtney Mil

12th Aug 2014, 07:31

It'll mean the Gulag for having his cover blown, Mel.

melmothtw

12th Aug 2014, 07:33

He's furiously trying to bluff it out right now (note the liberal use of the terms 'we' and 'our'), so time will tell if they buy it or not.

ORAC

12th Aug 2014, 08:14

US Senator: Standoff in Eastern Ukraine To Be Settled 'Within Another Week' (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140811/CONGRESSWATCH/308110012/US-Senator-Standoff-Eastern-Ukraine-Settled-Within-Another-Week-)

WASHINGTON — A tense standoff between Ukrainian forces and Russian-backed separatists will be over within a week — and will decide whether “all-out war” begins in Eastern Europe, says a US senator.

Florida Sen. Bill Nelson, the No. 3 Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, leaves for a trip to Ukraine later this week, where he will huddle with leaders of that nation and “representatives” for the top US general in Europe. Nelson told reporters via a conference call that with Moscow-backed separatists occupying several eastern Ukrainian cities, including Donetsk, “I expect within the matter of another week, this is going to be decided one way or another. “Either Russia comes across the border or the Ukraine military will have prevailed,” Nelson said. If the latter occurs, “then it’s just a mop-up operation” for Ukrainian forces, he said. But if Russian President Vladimir Putin senses his surrogates’ grip on key cities is slipping and decides to invade eastern Ukraine with some or all of the 20,000 troops US officials say are massed on his side of the border, “then it’s Katie bar the door,” Nelson warned. That scenario could lead to “all-out war,” Nelson said, though he never called for direct American involvement should a shooting conflict between Russia and Ukraine begin.......

But does Nelson believe a Russia-Ukraine war is imminent? “I can’t believe Vladimir Putin would be that foolish. There was a time we thought he was coming across the border,” Nelson told reporters. “Instead, he had his ... thugs go in ... to do his work. That hasn’t work. That’s why [several] towns are surrounded by the Ukrainian military.” The veteran SASC member said all evidence in recent days about the likelihood of war breaking out is “to the contrary.” “All the events in the last 24 hours indicate they’re about to settle this with the rebels giving up,” Nelson said. “Except if that is unacceptable to the Russian president and he sends his troops across the border.”.......

280 Russian aid trucks depart for Ukraine's eastern conflict zones (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/280-russian-aid-trucks-depart-for-ukraines-eastern-conflict-zones/2014/08/12/be9d7a92-5e5b-484c-8297-d13061b780c3_story.html)

KIEV, Ukraine — A vast column of trucks *that Russia said were bearing humanitarian aid embarked Tuesday on a journey toward Ukraine, Russian state television reported, although it remained unclear whether Ukraine was willing to accept the aid in the up to 280 tractor-trailers.

Ukrainian, U.S. and NATO officials have been cautious about the Russian aid offers, fearing that they could simply be a pretext to boost pro-Russian insurgents who have seized territory in eastern Ukraine. Any unilateral Russian action would be treated as invasion, Ukraine has said.

Russian state television showed white trucks packing up at dawn near Moscow and departing for the Ukrainian border. The ITAR-TASS news agency said that the trucks had departed carrying 400 tons of grain, 100 tons of sugar, 62 tons of baby food, 54 tons of medicine and medical equipment, 12,000 sleeping bags and 69 portable power generators. State television quoted truck drivers as saying that the convoy would take two to three days to reach the Ukrainian border. The distance between Naro-Fominsk, the town where the convoy departed, to the Ukrainian border is about 350 miles.

The Ukrainian government has said that it is only willing to accept aid in the form of an international effort coordinated by the Red Cross or United Nations. But the Red Cross on Monday said that although an international effort had been agreed upon in principle, many details were left to be arranged, including safety assurances for Red Cross workers in war-torn eastern Ukraine. The Red Cross refuses protection from armed guards, a policy that may complicate efforts to establish a Red Cross-headed mission in Ukraine any time soon, since rebels have at times argued among themselves about what kind of protections to offer international agencies.

A spokesman for the Red Cross office in Kiev said Tuesday that their office — which would coordinate the distribution of any aid — had not been informed by Russian authorities prior to the convoy’s departure. “There are talks now with the Ukrainian authorities to try to sort out the situation,” said Andre Loersch, the spokesman.

Ukrainian officials have said that they fear that any Russian aid convoy could be used as a pretext for a fuller military intervention from Russia, which has massed tens of thousands of troops at the border with Ukraine, according to Western officials........

The convoy departed a day after NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen warned that there was a “high probability” of a Russian military intervention in Ukraine. “We see the Russians developing the narrative and the pretext for such an operation under the guise of a humanitarian operation, and we see a military buildup that could be used to conduct such illegal military operations in Ukraine,” Rasmussen told the Reuters news agency.

glad rag

12th Aug 2014, 17:17

We have a fixed two party dictatorship really, the same in the US. Only the main parties can get a look in.

The futures bright Ronald, bright and purple.

melmothtw

13th Aug 2014, 16:46

A pretty succinct take on Putin's 'humanitarian' convoy...

http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag380/garethjennings1/Bu6ksRnCEAANwU-_zpsc7e24002.jpg (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/garethjennings1/media/Bu6ksRnCEAANwU-_zpsc7e24002.jpg.html)

Finningley Boy

13th Aug 2014, 18:52

Ah, now the arms race was a good thing too, Ronald. You just keep on getting better.

Courtney Mil,

It may seem somewhat counter-intuitive, but Ronald has a point about the Cold War? We've all read comments on forums like this about the degree to which defence assets, rather than spending, has been reduced. The chief cause of that, as accepted, has been the end of the Cold War, the problem is, the nonstop litany of events demanding a military response or vigilance to some degree since has not brought about a change of heart on defence arrangements, thanks mostly to the utter refusal to let go of the promised post cold war peace dividend and the arrogant belief in both the U.S.A. and U.K. particularly, that problems requiring a military resolution like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and Iraq yet again, would require the minimum level of commitment of personnel and resources. If there is another big hitter on the block we may see our elected leaders maintain a more realistic military posture and think twice before having a go at seemingly inadequate countries which just don't conform to the Western Liberal ideal.

Best

FB:)

Courtney Mil

13th Aug 2014, 19:18

Ah yes. FB, of course any war is "good" for defence expenditure. But is it good for anything else? Remember the Cold War was won by pricing the enemy out of the market. The arms race was never a good thing, apart from for the manufacturers or the size of the Forces.

Of course that's not to say we haven't gone way too far the other way now. But what do you want or expect?

Flash2001

13th Aug 2014, 19:44

I saw piccies of those trucks and they're pretty big. Looks like about 280 platoons of aid.

After an excellent landing etc...

rh200

13th Aug 2014, 21:01

If there is another big hitter on the block we may see our elected leaders maintain a more realistic military posture and think twice before having a go at seemingly inadequate countries which just don't conform to the Western Liberal ideal.

The basic concept of how we have been going with our defense has been founded on a sound principle. Unfortunately the analysis of when we could go down that route was wrong, actually just plain naive.

Whether we can recover enough, or the lefty's come to that realization in time is another matter. If we do then we can thank Putin for acting to early.

I saw piccies of those trucks and they're pretty big. Looks like about 280 platoons of aid.

According to one of the BBC articles I read, it looks like the Russians have been playing silly buggers with the Red Cross. Is there no limits to how low they will go.

500N

13th Aug 2014, 21:06

I saw piccies of those trucks and they're pretty big. Looks like about 280 platoons of aid.

That was my exact thought when I saw the pictures.

According to one of the BBC articles I read, it looks like the Russians have been playing silly buggers with the Red Cross.

Surprised the Red Cross let them, unless of course they didn't know.
They like to keep a clean nose.

Finningley Boy

13th Aug 2014, 21:07

Hi Courtney, the wars we've had since 1999 have seen defence expenditure maintained at an approximate level while the level of personnel and equipment have all taken a pasting. I'm convinced that certainly during the Blair years every time H.M. Forces were called upon to engage the Foe they shrank a bit more.

I don't know what I want really, certainly not to see anyone killed, what with the terrible time for that individual's folks each time. But that's like saying I don'y want to see anyone get wet in a deluge. As for what to expect, I think from here, taking into account a broad overview of how this World's leaders are dealing with one another I imagine anything can happen. Diane Abbot was on the Radio today wanting something done about the people stranded between a Mountain top and the rampaging army of I.S. ogres. But she's appalled at the idea of any U.K. (or anyone else's) military intervention. Still, the cease fire over Gaza looks like holding!?:ok:

FB:)

500N

13th Aug 2014, 21:17

Diane Abbot was on the Radio today wanting something done about the people stranded between a Mountain top and the rampaging army of I.S. ogres. But she's appalled at the idea of any U.K. (or anyone else's) military intervention.

Sounds like a classic do gooder statement. Or she works for the UN where negotiation is everything !

Finningley Boy

13th Aug 2014, 21:36

500N,

I've not quoted what Mrs Abbot said but certainly reflected with searing accuracy what she said through the interview. When the host tried to corner D.A. over the issue of direct military action following an ITV poll which said 45% backed air strikes and 37% were against, she moderated only as far as to say any military action should be an international operation. This made me think, that's exactly what it would be as nearly always these days.

FB:)

500N

13th Aug 2014, 21:43

she moderated only as far as to say any military action should be an international operation. Finn

Agree, and it seems to be quite a few countries (US, UK, Aus, France - so far).

She forgets one thing re this Op.

The US were invited by the Iraqi Gov't to do what they did / are doing so no UN involvement needed.
In fact, I reckon by the time they got organized, it would be over ! :O

Finningley Boy

13th Aug 2014, 22:08

The US were invited by the Iraqi Gov't to do what they did / are doing so no UN involvement needed.
In fact, I reckon by the time they got organized, it would be over !

Quite right Sir,

Only problem is the refugees are the ones that would over of course.

FB:)

500N

13th Aug 2014, 22:20

Finn

I think we need to stop talking on this thread and go to the other threads
on Iraq / ISIS.

ORAC

14th Aug 2014, 08:52

Ukraine crisis: Russian 'aid' convoy heads straight for rebels in Luhansk as fears intensify of 'direct invasion' (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-russian-aid-convoy-heads-straight-for-rebels-in-luhansk-as-fears-intensify-of-direct-invasion-9667836.html)

A Russian convoy carrying "humanitarian aid" has turned away from its route towards a confrontation with government officials at the Ukrainian border - and is now heading straight for rebel-held areas. The huge deployment of around 260 trucks towards eastern Ukraine has sparked international fears of a Trojan Horse-style invasion, as last night the Ukrainian president accused Moscow of potentially planning a "direct invasion of Ukrainian territory under the guise of delivering humanitarian aid".

Moscow said that the column of white spray-painted Kamaz trucks, which left a military depot outside the Russian capital early on Tuesday morning, was full of vital supplies ranging from baby food to sleeping bags. It had been parked since late on Tuesday at an army base in the southern city of Voronezh while Russian and Ukrainian diplomats argued over how the aid might be received.

By taking the road south towards the rebel-held city of Luhansk, the convoy now appears intent on ignoring a tentative agreement which would have seen it cross the government-controlled border at Kharkiv, where it could be inspected by the international Red Cross. The border at Luhansk is in the heart of the disputed region and largely rebel-held. Speaking on Tuesday, even the pro-Russian separatist leader Andrei Purgin said he did not expect the aid to be sent there directly......

NutLoose

14th Aug 2014, 09:49

You have to ask why drive an aid column 800Km when they could have sourced the supplies etc closer to the border, it's simply Putin making a show of it all and milking it for all it is worth.. That's like sending a relief column from Edinburgh to Southampton passing everything in between.

Mind you 260 trucks carrying 20 a go will evacuate most of his fighters if needed ;)

.

rh200

14th Aug 2014, 10:36

What ever it is its just a game Putin is playing, and you can bet its not good for the Ukrainians.

ORAC

14th Aug 2014, 20:37

Russian armoured vehicles and military trucks cross border into Ukraine (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11035401/Russian-armoured-vehicles-and-military-trucks-cross-border-into-Ukraine.html)

A column of armoured vehicles and military trucks crossed the border from Russia into Ukraine on Thursday night, in the first confirmed sighting of such an incident by Western journalists.

A separate, larger convoy of around 270 Russian trucks, which Moscow claims is carrying aid, rumbled to a halt just short of the border on Thursday night, while in east Ukraine, shells hit the centre of rebel-held Donetsk for the first time.

The Telegraph witnessed a column of vehicles including both armoured personal carriers and soft-skinned lorries crossing into Ukraine at an obscure border crossing near the Russian town of Donetsk shortly before 10pm local time.

The Ukrainian and Western governments have long accused Russia of filtering arms and men across the border to fuel the separatist insurgency in Ukraine's Donetsk and Luhansk regions, but such an incident has never before been witnessed by Western journalists.

The convoy, which included at least 23 vehicles, appeared to be waiting until sunset near a refugee camp just outside Donetsk, before moving towards the crossing without turning off headlights or making any other attempt to conceal itself.

While it was not immediately clear whether all of that convoy crossed the border, The Telegraph did see a substantial number of vehicles pass through check point manned by gunmen after shadowing the convoy down narrow country lanes near the frontier.

While the force did not seem to be a substantial invasion force, it confirms that military supplies are moving across the border. While the APCs carried no visible markings the fuel tankers and soft-skinned trucks in the convoy bore black Russian military number plates.........

NutLoose

15th Aug 2014, 11:59

Putin should have taken a leaf out this book on delivering aid

Coca Cola Christmas commercial 2010 HD (Full advert) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/ccNzBhTcehs)

Simplythebeast

15th Aug 2014, 15:27

A number of Russian military vehicles reportedly destroyed by Ukraine forces this morning after encroaching in to Ukraine...... What now?

Simplythebeast

15th Aug 2014, 15:38

Apparently 23 Armoured personnel carriers each normally carrying seven troops. Mr Putin is having a bad day.

rh200

15th Aug 2014, 21:23

Apparently 23 Armoured personnel carriers each normally carrying seven troops

They might be like some of the so called aid trucks some people have got a look into, mainly empty.

As for Putin have a bad day, he's played it cool so far, so its not over tilll the fat lady sings. Everything is smoke and mirrors.

NutLoose

15th Aug 2014, 23:20

Sending next to empty aid trucks just makes them look a bunch of idiots in the press, I could see it having had some credibility if they were stacked to the tailgate, or at least at the back to give the appearance of having a full load, it makes you wonder if there was a plan to utilise the empty space for other means... Either way you look at it, its not putting them in a good light. I see the biggest oil company has approached the Government after Billions to tied it over, so the sanctions do appear to be working.

Russian oil company pleas for debt relief - Story - World - 3 News (http://www.3news.co.nz/Russian-oil-company-pleas-for-debt-relief/tabid/417/articleID/356908/Default.aspx)

LFFC

15th Aug 2014, 23:36

It's not about what's in the trucks. It's all about the "escort" they will have to keep them safe as they cross the border into Ukraine.

ORAC

16th Aug 2014, 08:27

It's not about what's in the trucks. It's all about the "escort" they will have to keep them safe as they cross the border into Ukraine.

Ukraine 'destroys parts of convoy of Russian military vehicles’ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11038156/Ukraine-destroys-parts-of-convoy-of-Russian-military-vehicles.html)

There was growing concern over the Ukraine crisis on Friday night after Kiev claimed to have destroyed parts of a column of Russian military vehicles, with Nato accusing Moscow of launching an “incursion”.

Petro Poroshenko, the Ukrainian president, told David Cameron, the Prime Minister, that government artillery had destroyed a “considerable part” of a small military convoy that entered the country. The Telegraph witnessed a convoy of Russian armoured vehicles and military trucks crossing the border on Thursday night, but it was not clear whether it was the same convoy Ukraine claimed to have attacked.

Russia’s government denied its forces had crossed into Ukraine, calling the Ukrainian report “some kind of fantasy”.........

Scrutiny was focused on the border area this week because Russia sent a convoy of 270 trucks there with what they stated was humanitarian aid destined for civilians caught in the conflict zone in eastern Ukraine. The trucks, dispatched from Moscow region, rumbled to a halt about 20 miles short of the border with Ukraine on Thursday and have been standing there since......

On Friday, Russia’s foreign ministry claimed it had information that Ukraine’s Aidar battalion, a government-endorsed unit of paramilitaries, was planning to mine the convoy’s route to Luhansk. The idea, the ministry said, was to “destroy the vehicles with humanitarian cargo and the people escorting them and then accuse the [pro-Russian] militia of terrorist activity”.......

A military build-up on the Russian side of the border appeared to continue, with a large convoy of armoured personnel carriers and military lorries seen moving towards the checkpoint at Donetsk, not to be confused with the rebel-held city of the same name in eastern Ukraine. Dozens of military trucks and armoured personnel carriers, many flying Russian flags and emblazoned with MS – the Russian initials denoting a peacekeeping unit – turned off the M4 motorway towards the Donetsk crossing........

LFFC

16th Aug 2014, 10:46

The idea, the ministry said, was to “destroy the vehicles with humanitarian cargo and the people escorting them and then accuse the [pro-Russian] militia of terrorist activity”.......

Oh what a giveaway!

rh200

16th Aug 2014, 12:34

BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Rebel leader says Russian arms on way (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28817347)

A rebel leader in eastern Ukraine has said a convoy of military hardware is on its way to the region from Russia.
Alexander Zakharchenko, self-proclaimed PM of the Donetsk rebel area, said 150 vehicles and 1,200 personnel were approaching their border.
Russia has denied claims by Ukraine and Western reporters that military aid to the rebels is crossing over.

Somebodys not keeping to script

glad rag

16th Aug 2014, 16:34

"Moscow appears to have blocked efforts hold a march in favour of Siberian independence this weekend, but that doesn’t mean the sentiment isn’t spreading.."

From Siberia to Kaliningrad: the fledgling independence movements gaining traction in Russia | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/15/russia-fledgling-independence-movements)

TEEEJ

17th Aug 2014, 18:23

Currently doing the rounds on the various military forums. Claims of separatists being seen with new Russian kit. BTR-82A? Ukrainian plates on the car in second video.

GffdgaWKZSk&feature=related

dcg2cHv-_g8#&feature=related

BTR-82A armoured infantry fighting vehicle technical data sheet specifications description pictures*-*Army Recognition*-*Army Recognition (http://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_army_wheeled_armoured_vehicle_uk/btr-82a_armoured_infantry_fighting_vehicle_technical_data_sheet_ specifications_description_pictures.html)

NutLoose

17th Aug 2014, 19:22

Russia aid convoy: International Red Cross and border guards to check before it enters Ukrainian territory ? video | World | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/aug/15/russia-aid-convoy-international-red-cross-border-guards-check-video)

Of course the pitiful supplies in them might just be a Trojan horse, they may be delivering trucks to the rebels...

ORAC

17th Aug 2014, 20:34

Ukraine factories equip Russian military despite support for rebels (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukraine-factories-equip-russian-military-despite-support-for-rebels/2014/08/15/9c32cde7-a57c-4d7b-856a-e74b8307ef9d_story.html)

rh200

17th Aug 2014, 23:46

ORAC

Yep, the law of harsh reality, one wonders if Russia is still selling the Ukrainians lost hardware.

If the West isn't selling to them, one would imagine they could run low of the stuff they can't manufacture.

ORAC

19th Aug 2014, 21:10

All images on the link below, just a couple here....

Ukraine: artillery shells fall, but without a sound (http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85149)

Despite the legacy media maintaining its policy of reporting only one foreign crisis at a time, with Iraq being the fashionable crisis for the moment, serious events are unfolding in Ukraine. As it stands, the Donbass cities of Donetsk and Luhansk are variously under siege, liberated by Ukrainian forces who have broken though the rebel lines, in the midst of vicious fighting and/or under the control of pro-Moscow separatists.

Most if not all journalists seem to have deserted the front lines, so "mainstream" reports are coming via Kiev, copied out from military spokesmen, through TASS in Moscow, or from journalists such as Andrew Roth, NY Times, Reporter for the Moscow Bureau camped out on the Russian side of the Ukrainian border, many miles from any action. And since Roth, like his colleagues, seems unable to distinguish between a BUK battery command unit and a "military transport" (pictured top), we are not going to get much sense from the girlie-boys. Meanwhile, social media is offering persistent reports of Russian equipment crossing the border, to be seen later inside Ukraine, including pictures of towed 122mm gun-howitzers (probably 2A18 models – one pictured above), and ultra-modern T-72B1 main battle tanks (pictured below).

http://www.eureferendum.com/images/000a%20T72-019%20UKR.jpg

In a statement, the new head of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, Aleksandr Zakharchenko, then admits that the separatists have received at least 1,200 troops, 30 tanks and 120 armoured vehicles from Russia, which he calls "heavy reinforcements". With reports of gun battles in the centre of Donetsk, Ukrainian shelling, and the use of Grad BM-21s (Katyushas), plus major Russian military movements, reportedly close to the border, there can be doubt that we are seeing a significant escalation in this conflict. Add also the movement of a complete BUK battery, including (unusually) replenishment missiles (pictured below), plus diverse hardware such as Strella 10 launchers (short-range AA missiles), and there are no signs that either side is preparing to back down.

http://www.eureferendum.com/images/000a%20Missile-019%20reload.png

Earlier, we were seeing nothing much more than BMD light tanks, and their counterpart BTR-D tracked APCs, plus the ubiquitous BTR-80 series APCs, but now we are seeing the heavy metal, this suggests that things are way past the skirmishing stage. The indications are that the protagonists are drifting into a full-blown war.

Yet, apart from reports on an attack on a refugee convoy, reportedly killing 15, there is scarcely any reporting of current events in the western media. The peoples of Ukraine have little in the way of dead baby porn, and no refugees trapped on a mountain for breathless hacks to interview. There is no "caliphate" to keep Mr Cameron awake on his holiday bed in Cornwall, and even the "humanitarian aid" convoy seems to have disappeared. But then, the fighting in eastern Ukraine has only killed 2,086 people, according to United Nations estimates, including civilians and combatants, the casualty rate doubling since the end of July, when Ukrainian forces stepped up their offensive and fighting started in urban areas.

Thus, it seems, they must wait for the drama in Iraq to play itself out, before their conflict becomes fashionable again, and the press devote some attention to their suffering. Until then, one might even ask, when an artillery shell falls and there is no journalist to witness it, whether it even makes a sound.

NutLoose

19th Aug 2014, 22:56

In a statement, the new head of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, Aleksandr Zakharchenko, then admits that the separatists have received at least 1,200 troops, 30 tanks and 120 armoured vehicles from Russia, which he calls "heavy reinforcements". With reports of gun battles in the centre of Donetsk, Ukrainian shelling, and the use of Grad BM-21s (Katyushas), plus major Russian military movements, reportedly close to the border, there can be doubt that we are seeing a significant escalation in this conflict. Add also the movement of a complete BUK battery, including (unusually) replenishment missiles (pictured below), plus diverse hardware such as Strella 10 launchers (short-range AA missiles), and there are no signs that either side is preparing to back down.

One wonders the wests response...... Let me guess..... Nothing, none, zilch, zero.
I wonder what the response would have been if the US announced they were sending 1200 troops, 30 Abrams and 120 armoured vehicles. In accordance with the defence accord agreed when the gave away their nukes.

ORAC

20th Aug 2014, 10:47

Too little, too late by Putin?

Ukraine: is it war? (http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85150)

If it isn't an invasion, it's looks like something very close it, as reports come in (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-183-ukraine-fights-to-retake-ilovaisk/#3871) from here (http://www.hromadske.tv/society/kolona-rosiiskoyi-viiskovoyi-tekhniki-stoyit-u-lug/), seemingly confirmed by a Ukrainian official (http://www.hromadske.tv/society/komanduvach-ato-na-luganshchini-pidtverdiv-informa/), that a Russian convoy of 150 vehicles, including 40 MBTs, has broken through into the greater Luhansk city area.

http://www.eureferendum.com/images/000a%20Ukraine-020%20in.jpg

What seems to stack this up is a report in the Mail, which has picked up tank transporters carrying what it says are T-90s heading towards the Ukrainian border, and returning empty (top and below). As of this morning, the Kiev Post (https://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/dmitry-tymchuks-military-blog-we-confirm-that-the-column-of-russian-military-equipment-broke-through-to-luhansk-361304.html) is endorsing the earlier reports.

http://www.eureferendum.com/images/000a%20Ukraine-020%20out.jpg

Even as we see a graphic report (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36Qmw41Mows&feature=youtu.be) of an air attack on Luhansk, Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/19/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0GI0YK20140819) seems way behind the curve, and I don't see any other media reporting the convoy breakthrough. But if the reports are correct, we are about to see a major turnaround in the fortunes of the separatists, with the Russians seemingly unconcerned about concealing their involvement.

It could, of course, be the case that the tanks seen by the Mail have merely been laagered close to the Ukrainian border, awaiting orders. But that much heavy metal close to a war zone bodes no good. At the very least, this racks up the tension, despite the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/world/europe/plenty-of-room-at-the-top-of-ukraines-fading-rebellion.html?_r=0) talking of a "fading rebellion".

At worst, the NYT is hopelessly off beam and we're looking at all-out war.

-----------------------------------------------------------

'Fighting underway' in center of Ukraine's Luhansk (http://www.dw.de/fighting-underway-in-center-of-ukraines-luhansk/a-17862568)

Dmitry Tymchuk's military blog: Russian military equipment breaks through to Luhansk to reinforce militants (https://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/dmitry-tymchuks-military-blog-we-confirm-that-the-column-of-russian-military-equipment-broke-through-to-luhansk-361304.html)

The bad news:

1. Unfortunately, we can confirm the fact that the column of Russian military equipment broke through to Luhansk today to back up the local militants. Some of the equipment arrived from Russia earlier, while other vehicles entered Donbas today from the territory of the Russian Federation.

According to our data, a few dozen units of military equipment broke through into the neighborhood of Luhansk, up to 40 of them are heavy armored vehicles. Part of this column entered the city.

How the column of vehicles could have broken through the blockade line, considering the fact that Luhansk is being blocked by a circle of checkpoints and fortified strongpoints of ATO forces–we currently cannot say.

2. LNR [Luhansk People's Republic] terrorists argue that the shooting of the refugee convoy yesterday near Luhansk–was not them. This claim was made by I. [Ihor] Plotnitskiy, one of the insurgents’ leaders.

This statement could possibly confuse a casual observer who might erroneously think that this sinful deed that was committed, that such a terrible crime could be attributable to the ATO forces who shelled the convoy by mistake. If it were not for one “but.” The leader of the terrorists began swearing that the insurgents do not get thrown weapons from Russia, he said, “all military equipment is battle loot and was captured in battle.”

And here everything falls into place. It’s hard to assume that the insurgents could seize dozens of tanks and MLRS [Multiple Launch Rocket Systems] from the Ukrainian army, and it’s even less understandable where Ukrainian troops would get weapons and equipment available only in the Russian army, such as armored KamAZ trucks, the newest armored BTR-82 vehicles, Kord machine guns, AK [Kalashnikov] Series 100 automatic rifles, etc. etc.–this list is endless.

This lie about the weapons also proves the lie about the [fact of] the shelling of the convoy. But this little warlord, stuck deep in his lies, didn’t even use his brains when feeding his lies to the public......

peter we

20th Aug 2014, 19:54

www.liveUAmap.com Normally have very up to date events and shows the front lines (seems to be down at the moment)

Don't be under any illusion, Russia and Ukraine are at war. Most of the 'separatists' are long dead and the Ukrainian army is fighting against Russian army and Russian mercenaries who are being armed to the teeth with a stream of tanks and heavy weapons.

Ukrainians are still winning though.

www.interpretermag.com is another useful source.

Onceapilot

22nd Aug 2014, 16:07

Well, methinks a crunch time has arrived as serious reinforcements for the rebels seem poised to be employed.:uhoh:

OAP

ORAC

22nd Aug 2014, 21:09

U.S. says Russia must pull convoy from Ukraine or face more sanctions (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/22/uk-ukraine-crisis-idUKKBN0GL1VH20140822)

(Reuters) - The United States demanded Moscow remove an aid convoy it sent into rebel-held eastern Ukraine without permission on Friday, accusing Russia of a flagrant violation of the sovereignty of its former Soviet neighbour and threatening more sanctions. Moscow, which has thousands of troops close to the Russian side of the border, warned against any attempt to "disrupt" the convoy, which it said was purely humanitarian; it did not say what action it might take if the Ukrainian military intervened.

NATO said Russian troops had been firing artillery across the border and within Ukraine in a major escalation of military support for pro-Moscow rebels since mid-August, a defacto charge that Russia was already waging war. White House deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes said Washington planned to discuss the situation with the U.N. Security Council on Friday and that if the convoy was not pulled out, the Russians would face "additional costs".......

Russia said it was not breaching international law and that Russian President Vladimir Putin had told German Chancellor Angela Merkel in a telephone call Moscow had been unable to wait any longer for Kiev's green light to help people in distress. Merkel, who also spoke to Poroshenko, expressed her great concern, praising the Ukrainians for a "prudent" reaction and calling for a speedy ceasefire and shoring up of the frontier.........

A Reuters witness said the white-painted trucks had crossed onto Ukrainian soil and headed towards the rebel stronghold of Luhansk escorted by a small number of separatist fighters. The presence of the Russian trucks could force Ukrainian troops encircling Luhansk to rein in their offensive against the rebels there, because if they hit one of the Russian vehicles, that could give Moscow justification for a full-scale invasion......

"We warn against any attempts to disrupt this purely humanitarian mission," the Russian foreign ministry said. "Responsibility for any possible consequences of provocations ... will lie, completely and entirely, with those who are prepared to further sacrifice human lives for the sake of their ambitions and geo-political ploys."

The International Committee of the Red Cross, which both Moscow and Kiev had agreed should supervise the convoy, said it was not escorting it "due to the volatile security situation".

The entry of the trucks ran counter to the arrangement agreed with the ICRC and was a clear violation of the border, Sebastien Brabant, spokesman for the European Union's foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton, said. NATO went a step further. "These developments are even more worrying as they coincide with a major escalation in Russian military involvement in eastern Ukraine since mid-August, including the use of Russian forces," Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said.......

rh200

23rd Aug 2014, 08:27

Apparently a lot of the trucks are now leaving. A reporter says that a lot of them looked empty on the way in, and logistically they couldn't have unloaded them in under a day. BBC I think it was.

Anyway, the whole convoy thing is a big game Putins playing. What the F%$k it is ,and his end game is who know's

ORAC

23rd Aug 2014, 08:31

In which case, who and what are they pulling out before the Ukraine forces finally win?

ORAC

23rd Aug 2014, 08:48

Russians Open Fire in Ukraine, NATO Reports (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/world/europe/russian-convoy-ukraine.html?_r=0)

KIEV, Ukraine — Russia on Friday escalated tensions with Ukraine to the highest level since its stealthy invasion of Crimea in the spring, sending more than 200 trucks from a long-stalled aid convoy into rebel-held eastern Ukraine over the objections of Kiev and, NATO said, conducting military operations on Ukrainian territory.

NATO officials said that the Russian military had moved artillery units inside Ukrainian territory in recent days and was using them to fire at Ukrainian forces. Russia has repeatedly denied sending troops or military hardware into Ukraine, just as it denied any link to the unidentified gunmen who paved the way for Moscow’s annexation of Crimea — until President Vladimir V. Putin stated in April that Russian troops were “of course” involved.

There has been “a major escalation in Russian military involvement in eastern Ukraine since mid-August, including the use of Russian forces,” Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen of NATO said in a statement. “Russian artillery support — both cross-border and from within Ukraine — is being employed against the Ukrainian armed forces,” Mr. Rasmussen added. Mr. Rasmussen did not say how many Russian artillery pieces had moved into Ukraine or where they were located, but one Western official said the number of Russian-operated artillery units was “substantial.”

The NATO allegations are based on intelligence reports from several alliance members, Western officials said, and the allegation generally echoed Ukrainian claims in recent days of an expanding Russian military involvement in support of pro-Russian rebels who are battling to hold off a Ukrainian offensive. A NATO spokeswoman, Oana Lungescu, also said that the alliance had receive multiple reports of the direct involvement of Russian airborne, air defense and special operations forces in Eastern Ukraine.

The NATO statements added new pressure on Moscow before a flurry of diplomacy in coming days, including a visit to Kiev on Saturday by the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and a scheduled meeting next week between President Petro O. Poroshenko of Ukraine and his Russian counterpart, Mr. Putin, in Minsk, Belarus. Ms. Merkel spoke by telephone with the Russian and Ukrainian presidents on Friday and “expressed her great concern” over Russia’s unilateral decision to move its aid trucks into Ukraine, her spokesman said. She also spoke with President Obama and, according to the White House, both leaders agreed that the arrival of the convoy represented “a violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.”

The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a long statement saying in essence that it had authorized the crossing because it was fed up with stalling by the government in Kiev. Russian news agencies quoted a spokesman for Mr. Putin as saying that he had been informed of the convoy’s movements. “All the excuses to delay the delivery of aid to people in the area of a humanitarian catastrophe are exhausted,” the ministry said. “The Russian side has made a decision to act. Our column with humanitarian cargo starts moving toward Luhansk.”

That brought a curt response from a spokeswoman from the Obama administration. “It is important to remember that Russia is purporting to alleviate a humanitarian situation which Russia itself created,” Caitlin Hayden, the spokeswoman for the National Security Council, said in a statement. “If Russia really wants to ease the humanitarian situation in eastern Ukraine, it could do so today by halting its supply of weapons, equipment, and fighters to its proxies,” she added........

Ronald Reagan

23rd Aug 2014, 11:19

Well done to Russia for sending this humanitarian aid, what a true act of kindness.

Seeing the joke comments from western governments really makes me laugh. Its obvious they have no morals what so ever and care nothing about innocent civilians.

NutLoose

23rd Aug 2014, 11:25

Prat.

....

Ronald Reagan

23rd Aug 2014, 11:45

The heroes in action delivering the aid
http://youtu.be/vhGTOs1CfCI

highflyer40

23rd Aug 2014, 13:41

to bad the Americans can't "loan out" a few main battle tanks and air cover of their own. time for NATO to take a more direct role.

rh200

23rd Aug 2014, 21:18

I think considering the vast majority of the trucks where basically empty (from various reports) that it was a win win scenario for Putin. He gets the trucks in and out and he gets a propaganda victory at home.

But that is the loose scenario, the real win scenario was bait, which didn't work. We know that Russia has been operating in Ukraine, what he needed was a pretext to do it openly. I think he was hoping the Ukrainians would use force against it.

As such all the troops massed on the border could use that as a pretext to operate openly instead of as unmarked terrorists and criminals that they are doing now.

t43562

24th Aug 2014, 08:53

One offhand thought that I had: were the trucks checked on their way out? i.e. could their purpose have been to take something away?

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

24th Aug 2014, 09:01

time for NATO to take a more direct role.

That may well be true but wouldn't the Ukrainian Government need to request it.?That could be by appeal to the UN or by direct request to NATO. That principle would also hold good for all the beastly stuff that's happening in the Middle East.

ORAC

24th Aug 2014, 09:04

One offhand thought that I had: were the trucks checked on their way out? i.e. could their purpose have been to take something away? I did ask that question yesterday....

Ukraine accuses Russian aid convoy of stealing factory equipment (http://www.euronews.com/2014/08/23/ukraine-accuses-russian-aid-convoy-of-stealing-factory-equipment/)

Job done, one hundred and eighty-four Russian trucks from an aid convoy that entered Ukraine yesterday have re-crossed the border back into Russia......

Now the government says it knows why there were so many empty lorries, and its suspicions have been confirmed.

“Our operational information tells us the trucks that came into Ukraine pretending to be a humanitarian convoy were used to load the “Topaz” production unit for the ultra-modern “Kolchuga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolchuga_passive_sensor)” radar, and equipment from a factory in Luhansk that makes specialised ammunition magazines,” said the National Security and Defence Council spokesman Andriy Lysenko.

Ukraine is home to many high-tech plants vital for Russia’s space, missile, defence and aeronautics industries. Indeed many companies continue to do business with Russia despite the war raging in the east, and management loyalties are often divided between Moscow and Kyiv.

t43562

25th Aug 2014, 04:37

Thanks ORAC. Something believable at last.

rh200

25th Aug 2014, 04:54

Thanks ORAC. Something believable at last.

Yea I was thinking that myself when reading it. Makes the most sense. and maybe its a sign that Putins not holding out much hope.

peter we

25th Aug 2014, 10:32

The Russians won't give up. Another incursion of Russian forces into Novoazovsk aimed at, presumably, Mariupol. 30 Russian tanks plus APCs etc

#Novoazovsk is on fire (http://liveuamap.com/e/2014/25-of-august-novoazovsk-is-on-fire?ll=47.13835880864299;38.14624786376997&zoom=9)
http://www.0629.com.ua/news/604604?utm_source=api&utm_medium=api (Russian)

RT.com also had a article claiming that thousands of Ukrainian Forces were encircled south of Donetsk, the Russian border being part of that encirclement and the flanking forces were moving north from Russia, of course.

TBM-Legend

25th Aug 2014, 10:37

Where's Kursk???

Ronald Reagan

25th Aug 2014, 10:42

Russia to send another humanitarian convoy to Ukraine - YouTube (http://youtu.be/NWBt9VdhULQ)

ORAC

25th Aug 2014, 10:58

What factory do they want to strip this time?

Ronald Reagan

25th Aug 2014, 11:13

Probably no factory ORAC, its all about helping the innocent civilians.

rh200

25th Aug 2014, 11:29

Probably no factory ORAC, its all about helping the innocent civilians.

Your so funny Ronald

peter we

25th Aug 2014, 13:39

its all about helping the innocent civilians.

If thats the case why did the Russians block an aid convoy to Luhansk, from Ukraine, that did have International Red Cross support?

Ronald Reagan

25th Aug 2014, 13:51

Considering what the Kiev junta has done to the people of Luhansk and surrounding areas they may not want anything from them at all.

glad rag

25th Aug 2014, 15:23

Thin ice RR, thin ice....

Stanwell

25th Aug 2014, 15:29

I was taught, RR, to address the post, not the poster - but in this case...

While there are always two sides to any story, some of your more recent posts suggest that you're big on opinion - but short on facts.

Please look, listen and learn - then you might be given some credibility.

We're all trying to make some sense out of what's going on with this "most interesting situation".
As credible information comes to hand, we add it to the mix, give it a stir and then see what the pudding looks like, so to speak.

I, for one, would be most interested to hear a worthwhile contribution from you,

Cheers.

Ronald Reagan

25th Aug 2014, 16:33

If you want to know what is really going on I suggest you check out Graham Phillips
Graham W Phillips | Journalist (http://grahamwphillips.com/)
He is a reporter currently in Lugansk. He will give you a good idea of what is going on. I think Twitter and Facebook are where he posts most information, most of it very recent:-
https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK

https://www.facebook.com/grahamwilliamphillips

You all need to remember, if the west had not engaged in regime change in Ukraine then none of this would be happening, there would be peace in Ukraine.

Stanwell

25th Aug 2014, 16:39

That's not what I hear from the locals.

Ronald Reagan

25th Aug 2014, 16:46

If Yanukovych had not been ousted there would almost certainly not be a separatist uprising in the east. The uprising in the east is a direct result of the democratically leader Yanukovych being ousted, he had majority support in the east. This whole thing is due to Washington's desire to get ever closer to Russia and to encircle them (likely punishment for Russia preventing western military intervention in Syria). The EU is also to blame for its continued expansionism.

I know people in Eastern Ukraine also and none of them like what happened in Kiev and they do not like the new direction the country is going in.

Russia is naturally going to support people who are loyal to it, it is next door to them after all and this land was originally Russian anyhow. So one cannot blame them for being involved. They have far more right to be there than what we in the west do to be in the middle east in the way we are.

Heathrow Harry

25th Aug 2014, 16:48

"this land was originally Russian anyhow."

WOW!

Lonewolf_50

25th Aug 2014, 17:31

In one respect, I agree with RR.

The Russians have a next door neighbor with whom they have close relationships and financial and commercial ties.

Things get a bit messy over there, the Russians are going to act in such a way as to protect their interests and ensure that their neighbor does not become a problem, or a bigger problem, for them.

Nations look out for their self interests.

However, style counts.
The criticism that Putin's style draws is not unwarranted. (And to avoid the charges of chauvinism, to my view the style used by our leaders in Washington frequently leaves a bit to be desired ... )

peter we

25th Aug 2014, 18:50

If Yanukovych had not been ousted there would almost certainly not be a separatist uprising in the east.

There isn't a 'separatist uprising', its a Russian invasion. 80% of the original 12,000 fighters were Russian, by their own admission.

Very few locals were interested in starting a war, as the Russian leaders admitted. Most of the volunteer Russian forces have been wiped out, which is why Russian regular troops are now fighting, dying and being captured.

Ukrainian MoD Galetey: We have captured a lot of soldiers of regular Russian Army today

https://www.facebook.com/v.geletey/posts/287783238080751

rh200

25th Aug 2014, 20:51

Ronald is either a troll or a propagandist for the Russia, there's lots of them about.

The facts (as resonable as you can get) are there. The big thing in this, is public opinion mainly in Russia, and to a lessor extent outside. We know they had to import a large amount of outside fighters due to lack of significant uprising.

The tactics the Russians are using here, are not dissimilar to the Serbian issue. The Russians are happy to engage in Rape, and mass murder and intimidation if it suits them and they have an excuse.

One wonders if and when the Ukrainians manage to get back their territory what war crimes will have been carried out in Russia's name.

I still amazed that the Ukrainians are able to do so well, its seems to be unsustainable, where do they get their major weapons systems from? It seems their old supplier isn't supplying, and the west aren't helping because they don't want to escalate tensions.

One theory could be once they are extended enough and some of their capability (what little they have), then Russia can come in with regulars with less opposition and annex the east. It could also be trying to drag it out to winter, where gas is more of a weapon and other fatcors on the ground may be favorable.

rh200

25th Aug 2014, 23:37

Syrian gov?t demands US seek permission for airstrikes, as flare-ups rise across Mideast | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/25/syrian-govt-demands-us-seek-permission-for-airstrikes-as-flare-ups-rise-across/)

What a wicked web we weave.

State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said on Monday. Asked specifically whether the U.S. would have permission to act in Syria, she said: "I think when American lives are at stake, when we're talking about defending our own interests, we're not looking for the approval of the Syrian regime."

I wonder how she would feel if Russia openly conducted air strikes in Ukraine to protect its interests?

To be honest, the sudden expansion of ISIS just as the Ukraine thing hotted up, makes me wonder if they had a little guidance from Russia. It sure has the Yanks tied up in a bit of a not. Though the ISIS bit does give Obama a excuse to not get to involved in the Ukraine issue.

Ronald Reagan

26th Aug 2014, 10:27

I agree with you rh200! One rule for Washington, another for everyone else.

Going back to my earlier post about British reporter Graham Phillips who is in Lugansk, he also has a youtube channel.

www.youtube.com/user/gwplondon (http://www.youtube.com/user/gwplondon)

Lonewolf_50

26th Aug 2014, 14:53

I agree with you rh200! One rule for Washington, another for everyone else.
Envy noted.

Stanwell

26th Aug 2014, 17:02

Well, ain't that the case now that Putin's decided that 'I might as well play that game, too'.
The only difference being that he doesn't have as much experience.

glad rag

26th Aug 2014, 17:22

Putin And Poroshenko Handshake At 'Peace Talks' (http://news.sky.com/story/1324655/putin-and-poroshenko-handshake-at-peace-talks)

"UBS said it had opened a criminal probe after soldiers from the 98th airborne division based in central Russia were detained near the village of Dzerkalne, around 30 miles (50km) from rebel-held Donetsk.

A Ukrainian military spokesman said the men were on a "special mission".

But Russian military sources quoted by state news agencies have claimed the soldiers crossed the border by mistake.

In footage posted on the official Facebook page of the Ukrainian government's "anti-terrorist operation", the men were shown dressed in camouflage fatigues.

One of them, who identified himself as Ivan Melchyakov, listed his personal details, including the name of the paratroop regiment he said is based in the Russian town of Kostroma.

"I did not see where we crossed the border. They just told us we were going on a 70-kilometre march over three days," he said.

"Everything is different here, not like they show it on television. We've come as cannon fodder," he said in the video.

Ukraine's Defence Minister Valeriy Geletey said the soldiers were captured on Monday.

"Officially they are at exercises in various corners of Russia.

"In reality, they are participating in military aggression against Ukraine and their families know nothing about their true fate.

"I am addressing the relatives of Russian servicemen: find out immediately where your loved ones are. Take them out of Ukraine, where they are being forced to die."

Stanwell

26th Aug 2014, 18:05

Being the even-handed cynic that I am, I don't find that one particularly convincing. Sorry.

rh200

26th Aug 2014, 21:13

Being the even-handed cynic that I am, I don't find that one particularly convincing. Sorry.

Propaganda is a weapon of war, always has been. Can be the most effective weapon.

ORAC

28th Aug 2014, 07:53

Ukraine crisis: rebels seize key coastal town as they open new front near Russia (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11060054/Ukraine-crisis-rebels-seize-key-coastal-town-as-they-open-new-front-near-Russia.html)

Pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine seized a key coastal town on Wednesday in a move which opened a dangerous new front against the Kiev government. Separatist forces flying the flag of the rebel Donetsk People's republic entered the coastal town of Novoazovsk, depriving Ukraine of control of its southernmost section of border with Russia and putting the insurgents within striking distance of the centre of regional government in Mariupol.

The lightning advance took place in an area tens of miles from territory previously held by the rebels, suggesting that the troops originated at least in part from the Russian side of the border. Combined with a series of other defeats and the capture of Russian soldiers inside Ukraine on Tuesday, it increased speculation that – despite official denials – Russian regular forces have now entered the war alongside the separatists.

Kiev claimed that a vast column of "up to 100" tanks and heavy weapons from Russia was later spotted moving towards Temanove (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11058687/Ukraine-says-convoy-of-100-Russian-tanks-have-crossed-into-east.html), a government-held town 20 miles to the north of Novoazovsk. "We believe that this is Russian equipment. You cannot buy 100 tanks at a market in Donetsk or Luhansk," a Ukrainian army source told AFP in reference to the column.......

Journalists also reported several armoured personnel carriers flying rebel flags that were manned by men in uniforms similar to those worn by Russian soldiers who overran Crimea prior to its annexation by Russia in March.

The advance puts the separatists just 25 miles from Mariupol, a key port town where Sergei Taruta, the pro-Kiev governor of Donetsk region, has been based since rebels took over Donetsk itself. If they can take Mariupol, the separatists would be poised to strike along the coast creating a corridor to link up with Crimea, the province Russia annexed from Ukraine in March – a nightmare scenario for Kiev that had until recently seemed impossible.

The claims follow mounting evidence that regular Russian forces are now fighting openly alongside the separatists who have been locked in a civil conflict with Ukrainian government forces since April. Ten Russian paratroopers who were captured inside Ukraine on Monday were paraded for a press conference in Kiev on Wednesday. Mr Putin and other Russian officials have not denied that the soldiers crossed the border, but said they had done so "by mistake" during a routine patrol.

While Russian citizens serve openly in rebel ranks as "volunteers", the Kremlin has consistently denied that regular troops are involved in the fighting there. However, doubt is growing amongst Russian press and public over official denials about involvement in Ukraine. Reports of secret military funerals and mysteriously wounded servicemen prompted Vedomost, a liberal broadsheet, to publish an editorial demanding asking "Are we fighting or not?" on Wednesday.

Russian journalists investigating reports of mysterious funerals of servicemen said name plates had been removed from the graves of two paratroopers from Russia's 76th airborne division, Leonid Kichatkin and Alexander Osipov, who were buried in a cemetery in the unit's home town of Pskov on Monday.

The suspicion that Russian forces are fighting an undeclared war across the border has drawn comparison on social media with the beginning of the first Chechen War in 1994, when Boris Yeltsin denied sending a column of tanks into Grozny......

ORAC

28th Aug 2014, 08:26

Ukraine: the Russians tanks come rolling in (http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85163)

http://www.eureferendum.com/images/000a%20T-72BM-027.jpg

http://www.eureferendum.com/images/000a%20Guardian-027%20T-72.jpg

ORAC

28th Aug 2014, 15:11

NATO confirms Russian troops in Ukraine (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11060959/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-Ukraine-invaded-by-Russian-forces-says-Petro-Poroshenko-live.html)

Senior NATO official, Brigadier general Nico Tak, speaks during a press conference focused on Ukraine crisis, on August 28, 2014 at the Shape (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe) in Casteau, near Mons. He said that "well over a thousand" Russian troops were operating inside Ukraine. "They support separatists, fighting with them and fighting amongst them," the official said, adding that the supply of arms by Russia had increased in both "volume and quality".

Earlier there were images shown which provide evidence of Russian troops inside Ukraine. Nato released the images to "provide concrete examples of Russian activity inside Ukraine. The organisation adds they "are only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the overall scope of Russian troop and weapons movements". “We have also detected large quantities of advanced weapons, including air defence systems, artillery, tanks, and armoured personnel carriers being transferred to separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine,” said Brigadier General Tak. “The presence of these weapons along with substantial numbers of Russian combat troops inside Ukraine make the situation increasingly grave,” he said......

Forces clash with 'reconnaissance' group from Crimea

Ukraine said its forces had clashed with a reconnaissance group that had entered its territory from the Russian-controlled Crimean peninsula, AFP reports. The National Security and Defence Council said the fighting had flared on Wednesday in the Kherson region of Ukraine just north of Crimea, and accused the Russian military of "establishing positions" nearby in the peninsula.

The claims sparked fears that Moscow could be plotting an offensive towards the Black Sea peninsula after Kiev accused Russian troops of seizing territory along Ukraine's eastern border, some 450 kilometres (280 miles away).......

Security Council to hold emergency meeting on Ukraine

The UN Security Council is to hold an emergency meeting on Thursday on the Ukraine crisis following reports that Russia had sent hundreds of troops to shore up separatists in east Ukraine. The session requested by Lithuania will be held at 4pm GMT at UN headquarters in New York, diplomats said......