BELFAST AIRPORT INTERNATIONAL

[CCR]

BFS needs to go after Ryanair once they start getting new jet deliveries in a year`s time.
Like them or loath them, low cost carriers are the only real growth area these days.

[SecondDog]

Quote:
a lot of the backing for the DUB routes is from Govt subsidies.
Where did you pull that one out of?

Erm well since the Irish Govt abandoned any form of APD There is a huge boost straight away (If thats not a subsidy then it is as near as it needs to be). Plus there will be all the usual support from tourist boards and investment funds, you are all dreaming if you think otherwise.

Belfast still can't get rid of APD despite a border with a direct competitor, never mind a much smaller market to start with for getting any sort of air route startup investment.

So I think I'm spot on with my assessment of BFS' chance of getting any form of transatlantic route other than a loco startup.

[EI-A330-300]

Erm well since the Irish Govt abandoned any form of APD There is a huge boost straight away (If thats not a subsidy then it is as near as it needs to be). Plus there will be all the usual support from tourist boards and investment funds, you are all dreaming if you think otherwise.

Belfast still can't get rid of APD despite a border with a direct competitor, never mind a much smaller market to start with for getting any sort of air route startup investment.

So I think I'm spot on with my assessment of BFS' chance of getting any form of transatlantic route other than a loco startup.

They reduced the APD tax, what's the big deal, instead of increasing it for all carriers they decided to cap it at 3 euro to help airlines and to get some sort of revenue and not to affect growth. Tourism is important to our economy and yes it receives funding to promote Ireland (mind you NI also pay a fixed amount every year for them to be included in the marketing.) It supports thousands of jobs. Airlines don't receive a penny of the money, it is purely used to promote Ireland in x or y city.

Dublin didn't tell London to introduce APD and Dublin, its your authorities and the people who were elected in the North that are in charge of APD there. Anyway its only a couple of euro in the difference, that would not deter a carrier from coming to BFS if the market was there. If 7 euro or so sways a airline to come to DUB you are mistaking.

Scotland have set up there own fund for carriers to fly there, what's stopping people in Belfast from doing the same. NOTHING!

People in the North were not complaining when it was 10 euro from DUB and NOTHING from the North, airlines were not very eager to come then either.

There is a big difference in Gov's paying airlines to operate a route for x period of time and a tourism body marketing a place in certain cities.

[Skipness One Echo]

Well that's not true now is it?
It's considerably more than a "couple of Euros", it's set from London for the UK and NI with some dispensation to UA's BFS operation as it was killing it, and Scotland's Route Development Fund was wound up before it was ruled illegal state subsidy.

[j636]

Well that's not true now is it?
It's considerably more than a "couple of Euros", it's set from London for the UK and NI with some dispensation to UA's BFS operation as it was killing it, and Scotland's Route Development Fund was wound up before it was ruled illegal state subsidy.

Think EI means the difference now, 12 pound to 3 euro which is around 9 pound or so.

We all know it was set form London but Berlin, Brussels, Rome also have taxes like this one and all have borders, but as said above the ROI had it before the North and it didn't make carriers flock to Belfast from DUB, nothing has changed.

Yet again people still don't understand the small population of IRL means only one airport will be a hub. Belfast has hardly no other routes besides sun and UK ones and people expect Long Haul carriers to operate lots of flights. Come on people, it will never happen.

In the UK London, Manchester will be the main LH hubs while GLA/EDI will be to an extend. Other won't but they will have there NY flight.

[Jack1985]

SecondDog

Belfast still can't get rid of APD despite a border with a direct competitor,

Oh yeah because Belfast has such a vast population to support lots of new routes to the US. Also if you're going to back statements about support from tourism boards to airlines I suggest you do so carefully, just remember what Ryanair is doing to people who make such accusations. And maybe provided your evidence of such subsidies besides airport ones?

Also SecondDog cutting the Travel Tax is not an induced subsidy, if you think it is take it up with the Dutch Government also who did the same as the Irish Gov. They simply responded to the fact tourism suffered because of the tax.

[BFS BHD]

Lanzarote

Lanzarote restarts for Jet2.com in the morning. Meaning 3 departures in the morning to Lanzarote.

TCX8056 Lanzarote 07:05
TOM1472 Lanzarote 07:15
LS 0309 Lanzarote 09:00

[SecondDog]

Read it first before you fire back folks....

They reduced the APD tax, what's the big deal, instead of increasing it for all carriers they decided to cap it at 3 euro to help airlines and to get some sort of revenue and not to affect growth. Tourism is important to our economy and yes it receives funding to promote Ireland (mind you NI also pay a fixed amount every year for them to be included in the marketing.) It supports thousands of jobs. Airlines don't receive a penny of the money, it is purely used to promote Ireland in x or y city.

There is no big deal, for starters to you and Jack1985, if you re-read my posts, is there anything to suggest my posts are anti-DUB, as opposed to trying to provide an analysis of where BFS are at in terms of their ability to expand/improve their routemap.

I am well aware of how 'Airlines don't recieve a penny' of Govt money etc but think to yourselves, if the Tourism bodies pays for the advertising of a destination city for a new carrier, it is an incentive because the Airline doesn't have to spend as much on promotional work. Of course the Airline doesn't effectively get the money but really are any of you telling me you think it doesn't play a part in how an Airline decides to expand or deploy aircraft?

Dublin didn't tell London to introduce APD and Dublin, its your authorities and the people who were elected in the North that are in charge of APD there. Anyway its only a couple of euro in the difference, that would not deter a carrier from coming to BFS if the market was there. If 7 euro or so sways a airline to come to DUB you are mistaking.

Scotland have set up there own fund for carriers to fly there, what's stopping people in Belfast from doing the same. NOTHING!

People in the North were not complaining when it was 10 euro from DUB and NOTHING from the North, airlines were not very eager to come then either.

Again, my issue is not with Dublin, I don't know what way you are reading my posts but seriously, my point is that we need to get rid of the APD completely from N.Ireland because it gives us very little chance of competing on any routes with Dublin. Don't forget, the concession from BFS only applies to long haul routes. Also you are incorrect, the power to set/abolish APD rates still lies with Westminster, not Stormont. You also mention the rate is capped at 3 Euro in Dub but I believe that it is nil if there is a willingness to provide expansion

There obviously is something stopping Stormont from doing it, otherwise they would have done it already. Politics being what they are here it could be any number of things. Someone above has indicated that the Scottish fund was a non-starter too...

As for that last bit about when Dub was 10 and BFS Nothing, i mean do we really have to categorize people on here into Northerners and Southerners, that is just nonsense from a bygone era, we live in an economic world folks. AGAIN, my post is just my own assessment and I don't begrudge Dublin its successes

There is a big difference in Gov's paying airlines to operate a route for x period of time and a tourism body marketing a place in certain cities.

Of course there is but every little helps as they say. AGAIN my point is that Dublin have been forging ahead and BFS are unlikely to be able to get a foothold in any of the markets because there has been no Aviation strategy from National/Local Govt and what seems like regressive ownership under Abertis.

[SecondDog]

Jack 1985

Oh yeah because Belfast has such a vast population to support lots of new routes to the US. Also if you're going to back statements about support from tourism boards to airlines I suggest you do so carefully, just remember what Ryanair is doing to people who make such accusations. And maybe provided your evidence of such subsidies besides airport ones?

Also SecondDog cutting the Travel Tax is not an induced subsidy, if you think it is take it up with the Dutch Government also who did the same as the Irish Gov. They simply responded to the fact tourism suffered because of the tax.

Look, Of course BFS doesn't have a huge market for lots of Transatlantic routes but if you try to encourage people from the Ulster region (which is a perfectly acceptable target market) there should be enough people to sustain a year round YYZ a second year round US destination and a full summer season of SFB/MCO flights (it wasn't so long ago that circa 0600 on a Saturday morning saw 3 transatlantic flights fill the arrivals hall week in week out) so the people should be there if someone would only bite the bullet and invest some money.

Regarding whatever threat you think you are making to me regarding my views on money going from tourist boards to airlines, read my reply to EI330 below, Of course the airline doesn't get the money from the tourist board but it all amounts to the same thing if someone pays to advertise around a service that you are providing (you say tom-ay-toe, I say Tom-ah-toe) I'm not afraid of voicing my opinion. There is nothing in there that can be taken as libelous that I can see so chill your beans.

Cutting Travel tax IS an incentive, of course it is (erm yes sir well we'll charge you 3 Euro per head while up the road will be 15 Euro per head - where would you like to come) What part of my post made you think that I was implying there was anything wrong with providing such a subsidy? Well done the Dutch too. My whole point on this 'Belfast Airport' thread was an assessment of how 'Belfast Airport' finds itself lagging behind its main competitor. AGAIN, i ask, what part of my posts lead you folk to categorize me as a Dublin hating Northerner???

[Jack1985]

Dublin hating Northerner???

Nothing, never implied it - However you making assumptions which are absoloute bulls*hit. Did the UK Gov not reduce APD for UA at BFS? is this not a subsidy then also? And if you think airlines are swayed by Tourism boards there not - But they expect them to advertise, absolutely nothing wrong with that. Don't Discover Northern Ireland do the same in the US?

ook, Of course BFS doesn't have a huge market for lots of Transatlantic routes but if you try to encourage people from the Ulster region (which is a perfectly acceptable target market) there should be enough people to sustain a year round YYZ a second year round US destination and a full summer season of SFB/MCO flights

Maybe its because BFS management live in the real world. None of those routes will come around, possibly YYZ but seasonal. Summer Holiday makers dictate Orlando flights and Travel operators respond to demand. With regards a second US destination, I doubt it. You seem to have your own defined demand in NI? Airlines are around to make money and if demand existed as you say they'd be flying here. I mean when BFS had flights to the States the airline was a Lo-Co and was loss-making.

Cutting Travel tax IS an incentive

It is responding to a fall in tourism. But you're implying they planned to hit the NI market? Bull.

[EI-BUD]

I mean when BFS had flights to the States the airline was a Lo-Co and was
loss-making.

Jack, do you mean flight to Canada with Zoom? Sadly, since Zoom folded no airline will fill the void left by them. Nobody really knows that the particular stats for this individual route/routes. Ulster has huge linkage with Canada and Toronto has been on the map for decades at times by Air Canada, mainly charter flights by many airlines. On a suitable frequency with appropriate marketing this route could be sustainable.

Of course Aer Lingus if you refer to them as LOCO at that time of operating BFS SNN JFK, that was doomed from the word go due to Aer Lingus's need to touch down at SNN enroute, them being an Irish airline and all.

As far as I am concerned, the reduction in APD is a token gesture, sends a good message out. Passengers checking prices talk more about the APD than they do on the actual air fare, and given the very limited capacity, if seats book up the prices go up, so few passengers actually seeing a net saving, that would be my interpretation. Dublin having so much more capacity will tend to have more low priced seats as with up to 16 daily departures, often will be far more availability. In my view reduced APD is publicity message. If BFS could get additional flights on US routes by way of lower APD, then it could be heralded a success....

Don't Discover Northern Ireland do the same in the US?

Do Discover NI actually market NI the States, my understanding was that NI assembly pay Tourism Ireland £4M per year to jointly market NI and ROI? Given that so many passengers come to the Island and to NI by way of Dublin, the sheer amount of tourists in ROI registered cars tells that tale there! hence the rationale....

EI-BUD

[EI-A330-300]

As for that last bit about when Dub was 10 and BFS Nothing, i mean do we really have to categorize people on here into Northerners and Southerners, that is just nonsense from a bygone era, we live in an economic world folks. AGAIN, my post is just my own assessment and I don't begrudge Dublin its successes

I didn't intend to categorize people but in the political landscape its exactly what we are.

There obviously is something stopping Stormont from doing it, otherwise they would have done it already. Politics being what they are here it could be any number of things. Someone above has indicated that the Scottish fund was a non-starter too...

I expect its more a case they don't know a way to make up the lost revenue from the tax as if it was scrapped they would have to make savings to that exact amount.

[SecondDog]

Nothing, never implied it - However you making assumptions which are absoloute bulls*hit. Did the UK Gov not reduce APD for UA at BFS? is this not a subsidy then also? And if you think airlines are swayed by Tourism boards there not - But they expect them to advertise, absolutely nothing wrong with that. Don't Discover Northern Ireland do the same in the US?

I'm beginning to think you either don't read to the end of the sentences or just don't understand them, Yes, they reduced it for the Long Haul flights to £12 per head (it is still full whack on other destinations btw) Yes this is a subsidy, that is my point, I WANT them to subsidise flights in this manner to help generate expansion and growth. It is different on the UK mainland, where all the airlines have to pay it regardless - but in Northern Ireland, we have a land border with a competitor who doesn't charge it, so it should be scrapped here in the interests of competition, what part of this have you failed to grasp?

Then you tell me the airlines are not swayed by the tourism boards' advertising but that they 'expect' them to advertise. So in other words, it is factored into their cost/benefit analyses in their business development strategy and the numbers will be worked out with said bodies long before a route will be announced. You accuse me of Bull and Bullsh*t twice in your reply but then you basically say the same thing as me when you try to argue against my points.

Maybe its because BFS management live in the real world. None of those routes will come around, possibly YYZ but seasonal. Summer Holiday makers dictate Orlando flights and Travel operators respond to demand. With regards a second US destination, I doubt it. You seem to have your own defined demand in NI? Airlines are around to make money and if demand existed as you say they'd be flying here. I mean when BFS had flights to the States the airline was a Lo-Co and was loss-making.

Are you seriously saying that BFS Management shouldn't be looking to add those routes? YYZ was a long standing route for Belfast and can easily be so again, Orlando is always full for the short schedule these past couple of years, so they should extend the schedule (if it has to be gradual, so be it) Second destination US is perhaps the least likely option. As for a Defined Demand in N.I. Noone who runs a business can afford to limit their potential marketplace like that. You say airlines are around to make money - well I say that they are just using the economic downturn to try to eek out as much third party support as possible to make as much money as possible (Again, not a criticism, to me this is just good business). Call me a cynic (it is a much nicer word than Bullsh*t btw) if you wish but somehow I think my finger is nearer the pulse than yours

It is responding to a fall in tourism. But you're implying they planned to hit the NI market? Bull.

You are saying they didn't? What planet do you live on if you think that wasn't a factor in the decision? As I said above, noone limits their marketplace and you'd be amazingly out of touch if you thought that Dublin doesn't look at the Northern Irelanders with their Sterling and a shiny connecting Motorway as a target market. Considering they have recently been publishing their increased passenger traffic from the North (it was linked on the Dub thread somewhere recently), I imagine they've considered it

[Dee747]

Getting bored now with all these "I said, you said" posts.

[Skipness One Echo]

YYZ was a long standing route for Belfast and can easily be so again,

And for Exeter, Cardiff, Newcastle, Leeds, Birmingham and Edinburgh, all gone and closed. The market has changed beyond recognition since the simpler days of Wardair, Worldways and Air Transat. The house of mouse might work on long haul but not sure Canada will come back to non hub airports like BFS. Air Canada Rouge is not so much a visiting family market but an inbound tourism market which is why they're having a crack at EDI and DUB.

[El Bunto]

Blue Panorama ( of Italy ) B763 EI-FCV in to Aldergrove today on a charter out of Brize Norton. Trooping, one assumes.

Quite a mix of airlines running MoD trooping these days; recently we have also had Corsair, Atlas and World stopping by.

[BFS BHD]

Another drop in PAX= -5.2%

PASSENGERS ROLLING YEAR= 4077477

But Newark is on the up:

2012 2013
9355 9849 +5%

[GAZMO]

BHX and MAN also doing well
Glad to see Newark doing so well

[OltonPete]

BHX

GAZMO

I make BFS-BHX 138 per flight or 88% load factor (15697 pax 114 flights).

I know it was August and most flights are full but the route is less than a year old and BHX is probably not easy's favourite airport.

Also flybe seem to be scaling back BHD-BHX with the 6 x 195 and 1 x Q400 this summer changing to at best 5 x Q400 and 2 x 175's this winter and at worse 4 x Q400 and 1 x 175 in January at times.

SOE

Re BHX-YYZ very much a live and kicking or at least squirming. Still weekly and packed for 6 months. Okay not quite the days of Wardair but better than nothing. I am not sure of the customer base now but both cities do have reasonable Sikh populations and although the market in general has always been price sensitive hopefully it will continue.

Although the 310's won't last for ever and BHX was only give the A330 for five flights this year.

Pete

[GAZMO]

Oltonpete

i think EZY would be very happy with an 88% LF on a domestic route to BHX