Light aircraft crash IWM Duxford
Well you're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I maintain that just because you can shut the entire site - is it justified?
The people at the museum will have zero interference with the investigation. Intrusion is admittedly more difficult to control but the police now regularly use screens at motorway accidents without inconveniencing their investigations, and nobody is going to stand staring at screens for hours while walking between the hangars.
Several people on here have already commented on having seen a video of the crash. It's not been released by any of the regular news sites, why search it out. The people who posted it and those who searched for and viewed it are guilty of intrusion, albeit not in person, but its a bit rich to then suggest that a blanket closure needs to be in place just in case the public might behave in the same way.
Ultimately, how far do you have to ring fence a site. I presume the M11 isnt shut ?
The people at the museum will have zero interference with the investigation. Intrusion is admittedly more difficult to control but the police now regularly use screens at motorway accidents without inconveniencing their investigations, and nobody is going to stand staring at screens for hours while walking between the hangars.
Several people on here have already commented on having seen a video of the crash. It's not been released by any of the regular news sites, why search it out. The people who posted it and those who searched for and viewed it are guilty of intrusion, albeit not in person, but its a bit rich to then suggest that a blanket closure needs to be in place just in case the public might behave in the same way.
Ultimately, how far do you have to ring fence a site. I presume the M11 isnt shut ?
Don’t worry. It’s open on Friday, only shut for 48 hours, so your very pressing need to visit can happen then.
The only problem is they’ll have taken the debris away, so I suppose there will be nothing for you to try and see.
Really? You can’t wait 48 hours to visit?
What are you a press photographer?
I don't think anyone on here is suggesting that they personally have a selfish reason to visit Duxford this week, least of all to rubberneck the scene of this tragedy. I certainly don't and, if I lived in East Anglia, I could/would probably reschedule my visit anyway.
However, I don't live in East Anglia; I live in Cumbria. If I'd planned to visit the IWM this week it would have comprised a 600 mile round trip, reservation of at least 2 nights hotel accommodation and scheduling of other domestic arrangements. With the greatest respect for the victim and their family I might have found that closure of the entire Duxford site was a little extreme. Would this not be a fairly localised accident site? Would a fatal RTC on Exhibition Road justify a 2-day closure of the Science Museum?
However, I don't live in East Anglia; I live in Cumbria. If I'd planned to visit the IWM this week it would have comprised a 600 mile round trip, reservation of at least 2 nights hotel accommodation and scheduling of other domestic arrangements. With the greatest respect for the victim and their family I might have found that closure of the entire Duxford site was a little extreme. Would this not be a fairly localised accident site? Would a fatal RTC on Exhibition Road justify a 2-day closure of the Science Museum?
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The owner or custodian of private land (IWM in this case) can do as they please. If a temporary closure due to a tragic, fatal accident annoys someone planning on a hot date, hard luck. 
Just because you can shut something it doesn't mean you should. As I said before some people on here have already searched out video of the crash which is no less disrespectful than people watching screens on an airfield while walking between museum hangars. I doubt they all work remotely for the AAIB, so why do it and tell us.
My main comment remains that imposition of restrictions that are more severe than needed (and they obviously vary from case to case) can lead to complaints from members of the public and do not do the reputation of the organisation any good.
I would finish by saying that there has been no statement that the closure was requested by the AAIB or the Police so I stand by my view that the IWM have unnecessarily closed the site.
After 30 posts including people whinging about the temporary closure of the IWM (first world problem)…
I’d like to offer my most sincerely condolences to a family who have received the terrible news of the untimely death of a loved family member
I’d like to offer my most sincerely condolences to a family who have received the terrible news of the untimely death of a loved family member
Looks like a lack of right rudder to compensate for full power being applied on a go around.
This discussion is under accidents and close calls.If someone is offended then the best thing to do is avoid this part of Pprune.
There is an element of education from reading accident reports.That’s why they are published.
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Mike, think SWBKCB is referring to the arguments about closure of the museum for two days.
Video of the accident is on ASN, which also mentions the aircraft bounced twice before the go around.
Video of the accident is on ASN, which also mentions the aircraft bounced twice before the go around.
Mike, think SWBKCB is referring to the arguments about closure of the museum for two days.
Video of the accident is on ASN, which also mentions the aircraft bounced twice before the go around.
Video of the accident is on ASN, which also mentions the aircraft bounced twice before the go around.
My apologies I missed that side discussion.Fatal accidents are a daily occurrence on the highways especially in this part of Asia where traffic laws are mostly ignored by drivers who have no concept of risk or self preservation. Some aviation sites are full of maudling comments from those who never knew the deceased which are pointless.
Light aviation is like riding motorcycles.Exciting but with risks.Looking at what can happen is worth a thousand briefings.
Similar accident here with a very experienced pilot who crashed his P51Mustang on his own UK airstrip https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib...mustang-g-mstg
Report on a similar Cirrus accident in Oz. Post by Centaurus (a highly experienced aviator - P-51, Lincoln bomber, 737 pilot and instructor, aviation author) in reference to the accident.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/news-i...und-challenges
The accident being talked about, let's not be so shy in taking a lesson to heart.
This ATSB report on the Bankstown Cirrus 22 accident is worth reading. It includes extracts from NTSB reports on similar Cirrus 22 landing accidents in USA.
A low energy go-around (as from a bounced landing) can be quite critical if the speed is close to the stall when the go-around occurs. Old warbirds such as the Mustang and Sea Fury could be a handful on low energy go-aounds. Even a low powered aircraft such as Cessna 172 can yaw and pitch up quite markedly as full throttle is applied if a go around takes place from a bounced landing or after several bounces.
I would hazard a guess and say that most flying school instructors (especially new graduates) teach practice go arounds from short final at 200 feet where there is plenty of time to correct mishandling. On the other hand few would demonstrate a deliberate high bounced touch down where speed is close to the stall, energy is low and the aircraft pitches up and yaws and rolls at full power. of course this would be a dual exercise and not practiced by solo students
A low energy go-around (as from a bounced landing) can be quite critical if the speed is close to the stall when the go-around occurs. Old warbirds such as the Mustang and Sea Fury could be a handful on low energy go-aounds. Even a low powered aircraft such as Cessna 172 can yaw and pitch up quite markedly as full throttle is applied if a go around takes place from a bounced landing or after several bounces.
I would hazard a guess and say that most flying school instructors (especially new graduates) teach practice go arounds from short final at 200 feet where there is plenty of time to correct mishandling. On the other hand few would demonstrate a deliberate high bounced touch down where speed is close to the stall, energy is low and the aircraft pitches up and yaws and rolls at full power. of course this would be a dual exercise and not practiced by solo students
The accident being talked about, let's not be so shy in taking a lesson to heart.
Last edited by megan; 28th Mar 2024 at 06:20.
The accident Megan refers to mirrors the one being discussed.
Despite so much criticism about Australian CASA as the holder of UK and Australian licences I find their regulations and training better than the UK.
Despite so much criticism about Australian CASA as the holder of UK and Australian licences I find their regulations and training better than the UK.
»I would hazard a guess and say that most flying school instructors (especially new graduates) teach practice go arounds from short final at 200 feet where there is plenty of time to correct mishandling. On the other hand few would demonstrate a deliberate high bounced touch down where speed is close to the stall, energy is low and the aircraft pitches up and yaws and rolls at full power. of course this would be a dual exercise and not practiced by solo students »
100%
My first solo was in a Aircoupe at Rochford aérodrome now London Stansted where I bounced along the runway due to never being shown what to do in a bounced landing especially relevant with an unusually light aircraft without the instructor. I was probably saved because of the low power and strength of the aircraft. My instructors were hour builders on PPLs and not much good.
I bounced my first jet with a training captain and pax on board..again hadn’t been taught what to do which ended with the oxygen masks out and a set of hydraulic control warning lights and the odd generator off line. Many years later I did a gliding instructors rating which included a low level winch failure called the « bunny hop » where the aircraft is flying in ground effect just above the stall speed still connected to the cable; the national coach advised that we didn’t need to demonstrate it to pupils because of the risk involved.
Maybe the answer is better briefings, flying exercises or a simulator.
100%
My first solo was in a Aircoupe at Rochford aérodrome now London Stansted where I bounced along the runway due to never being shown what to do in a bounced landing especially relevant with an unusually light aircraft without the instructor. I was probably saved because of the low power and strength of the aircraft. My instructors were hour builders on PPLs and not much good.
I bounced my first jet with a training captain and pax on board..again hadn’t been taught what to do which ended with the oxygen masks out and a set of hydraulic control warning lights and the odd generator off line. Many years later I did a gliding instructors rating which included a low level winch failure called the « bunny hop » where the aircraft is flying in ground effect just above the stall speed still connected to the cable; the national coach advised that we didn’t need to demonstrate it to pupils because of the risk involved.
Maybe the answer is better briefings, flying exercises or a simulator.
Some things don't need to be included in the training syllabus, simply because any student will invariably set up the needed conditions all by themselves. Bounced landings are one example.
Sad to hear that the pilot didn't make it.
Sad to hear that the pilot didn't make it.
I fly an SR22T off a short runway and am obviously motivated to learn as much as possible how to avoid getting into this kind of accident. I was immediately struck by the similarity with the Bankstown, Australia crash. Both pilots bounced and made the correct decision to go-around. The execution of this apparently straight forward maneuver is where things went terribly wrong on both occasions. Both were solo flights probably relatively light and as has been pointed out the 315 hp engine produces significant yaw at full power.
Most of us are used to doing touch and goes which are pretty easy in this aircraft. So as a relatively experienced Cirrus pilot I would not have expected this outcome. Maybe the nose angle reduced the visual cues. On a normal touch and go you have a reasonable view of the runway and the rudder is pretty effective. In a high bounce and with the added pitch up from a rapid application of power obviously things are different. Whilst the video is distressing it is quite illuminating and shows the aircraft had climbed rapidly before control was lost. The Cirrus has an audible stall warning, but it is pretty easy to trigger it by rotating a little enthusiastically and I have never known our aircraft to drop a wing. This is not something I would have expected and will definitely try to be cautious in this kind of situation.
Most of us are used to doing touch and goes which are pretty easy in this aircraft. So as a relatively experienced Cirrus pilot I would not have expected this outcome. Maybe the nose angle reduced the visual cues. On a normal touch and go you have a reasonable view of the runway and the rudder is pretty effective. In a high bounce and with the added pitch up from a rapid application of power obviously things are different. Whilst the video is distressing it is quite illuminating and shows the aircraft had climbed rapidly before control was lost. The Cirrus has an audible stall warning, but it is pretty easy to trigger it by rotating a little enthusiastically and I have never known our aircraft to drop a wing. This is not something I would have expected and will definitely try to be cautious in this kind of situation.
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but it is pretty easy to trigger it by rotating a little enthusiastically and I have never known our aircraft to drop a wing. This is not something I would have expected
Sure, if the landing has gone bad, go around. During any go around, your first job is to maintain flying speed, and accelerate to Vx, the Vy as soon as possible. There is zero need to be flying slowly at altitude, if flying with greater airspeed and less altitude can be done with consideration to obstacles. Keep it low, and accelerate. Even if there are obstacles, if there is any concern about clearing them, I aim for two thirds up the obstacle, accelerate as much as possible, then sacrifice some of the airspeed to pop up over the obstacle, knowing that I can lower the nose again once clear, and continue to accelerate to Vy.
As seen in this, and many other videos, climbing slower than Vy puts the pilot at increased risk of stall/spin, and not being able to achieve a safe glide in the case of engine failure.