AA Crash Jamaica
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,627
Likes: 2
From: UTC +8
Flight Safety ". . .a life and death decision. The simulator seems like a good place to do this.
As previously mentioned: Simulator training has more to do in avoidance, rather than in extricating yourself from the snafu of landing too far down the length of a wet pavement. Because if in the simulator you were to touch halfway down the pavement, you would fail your sim check.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 1
From: Florida
protectthehornet
and you like so many others are WRONG WRONG WRONG
It ain't money. It's time and assurances that you are not going to just move the problem someplace else.
It sound easy to say money solves everything, but when you are told to submit a budget to fix it, you spend most of your time trying to figure out what's broke and then how to fix it.
In this accident we don't even know why it happened yet.
Why not? MONEY...that's the answer for all crashes...MONEY
It ain't money. It's time and assurances that you are not going to just move the problem someplace else.
It sound easy to say money solves everything, but when you are told to submit a budget to fix it, you spend most of your time trying to figure out what's broke and then how to fix it.
In this accident we don't even know why it happened yet.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,053
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From: alameda
iompaseo
listen...if pilots didn't have to fill out paperwork for every go around...
if they didn't feel a silent pressure about MONEY and the cost of every minute of fuel maybe there wouldn't be a reluctance about going around...
it is money pal and if you don't know it now...you never will
if they didn't feel a silent pressure about MONEY and the cost of every minute of fuel maybe there wouldn't be a reluctance about going around...
it is money pal and if you don't know it now...you never will
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
From: US
listen...if pilots didn't have to fill out paperwork for every go around...
if they didn't feel a silent pressure about MONEY and the cost of every minute of fuel maybe there wouldn't be a reluctance about going around...
it is money pal and if you don't know it now...you never will
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Paperwork required for go-around? None.
if they didn't feel a silent pressure about MONEY and the cost of every minute of fuel maybe there wouldn't be a reluctance about going around...
it is money pal and if you don't know it now...you never will
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Paperwork required for go-around? None.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
From: US
lomapaseo - In this accident we don't even know why it happened yet.
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Post of the year, forever.
No facts on where the plane touched down.
No facts on the speed at touchdown.
No facts on any aircraft problems.
No facts on any environmental problems(standing water, hydroplanning, etc).
No facts on....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Post of the year, forever.
No facts on where the plane touched down.
No facts on the speed at touchdown.
No facts on any aircraft problems.
No facts on any environmental problems(standing water, hydroplanning, etc).
No facts on....
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: Origae-6
Good post!
Inappropriate criticisms from those who are not yet in full possession of the facts are unhelpful. The opposite is also true. I cannot understand why one poster wrote "Kudos to the pilots". Presumably because they missed a hospital or school?
Trash du Blanc
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,185
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From: KBHM
Anyone figured out what happened to the left wing? It looks almost like an overloading fracture.....
Oh, and I'm pretty sure the captain made the landing. Adverse conditions and all that.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure the captain made the landing. Adverse conditions and all that.
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 413
Likes: 47
From: FL, USA
Paperwork required for go-around? None.
At a certain airline mentioned in this thread, yes, it's a required report for a go-around.
Look in required reports.
Sad thing our clueless bunch of Chiefs tossed in the mix not long ago
Last edited by WhatsaLizad?; 25th December 2009 at 22:06.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,896
Likes: 1
From: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
listen...if pilots didn't have to fill out paperwork for every go around...
I realize many third world carriers still give you a visit to the chief pilot's office if you go around, been there done that in years past.
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Wait, does American have a 'no-fault' go around policy and still require a written report? I thought the lack of a report for a missed approach was part of the 'no-fault' safety culture philosophy.
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,924
Likes: 614
From: surfing, watching for sharks
According to pax, the aircraft touched down halfway on the runway..
I have a hard time believing someone with no forward vsby at night can discern when they are half way down the runway. Assumes the pax knew the runway length. I've had comments from pax about long landings when I put it down at the 1000 ft mark. Many non pilot friends assume we land as close to the threshold as possible, believing any runway they see that we haven't landed equates to a long landing.
Last edited by West Coast; 25th December 2009 at 04:41.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,053
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From: alameda
paperwork is required on a go around below 1000' agl.
at least at my major airline, which starts with a vowell...I will defer to an american pilot who truly knows.
touchdown zone lights would help...but there are other clues/cues to use...someone might want to post runway lights from the AIM.
at least at my major airline, which starts with a vowell...I will defer to an american pilot who truly knows.
touchdown zone lights would help...but there are other clues/cues to use...someone might want to post runway lights from the AIM.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 367
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From: above it all
The aircraft was probably lucky still to have enough energy to cross the road at the end of the runway and not fall down there, see the video here:
American investigating after plane crash lands in Jamaica | kens5.com | News
American investigating after plane crash lands in Jamaica | kens5.com | News
PPRuNe supporter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,676
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From: Planet Earth
With the odd chance that an over-run does occur, why do we allow airport designers build such a perimeter at the end of the runway, if the ground would have been level beyond the runway surface, how many injuries could have been avoided.
Paper work
Any captain that is so intimidated by doing the right thing in lieu of filling out a bit of paperwork or visit to the cp's office shouldn't be in the left seat, just my 2 cents.
Paper work
Any captain that is so intimidated by doing the right thing in lieu of filling out a bit of paperwork or visit to the cp's office shouldn't be in the left seat, just my 2 cents.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Sad thing our clueless bunch of Chiefs tossed in the mix.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
From: Euroville
A report for a go around is required where I work too. It's to do with statistical analysis and trend monitoring, not to critique a decision or second guess anyone. It's a no blame policy for going around, pushing on and busting stabilized approach criteria is very much a blame policy and you will have a meeting with the Chief Pilot. It takes about 2 mind to fill out the form.
Can we also drop that one now?
Can we also drop that one now?
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 33
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From: U.S.A
As a pax, when you are familiar with an airport, it is not uncommon that you use landmarks to decipher your exact location...KIN has two exits and it is very rare for a narrowbody to use the second exit even in the worst of conditions....To answer your question as to how a person with no forward visibility can tell their location, you use the landmarks, e.g the airport fire station..