AA Crash Jamaica
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
From: US
p51guy said:
"I've landed at San Jose Costa Rica in a 757 with an authorized 15 knot tailwind because circling would have put us into the clouds because of rising terrain. The airport is at 3000 feet landing uphill. Next leg we flew to MIA and a cell was moving in from the west, us landing east. About a 4 mile final we got the windshift to a 15 knot tailwind. We had a 13,000 ft runway at sea level but now were not legal. I knew if we went around we would end up at Orlando because the cell would then close the airport for a while. Yes we decided to land because we had just done the same thing up in the higher airport with a much shorter runway. Was it right? No. It made sense and we heard nothing about it. Happened almost 10 years ago but the rules are the same today. What is safe and what is legal sometimes aren't the same. Normal tailwind limits for us on the 757 was 10 knots unless it was a special airport. I see it still is."
_______________________________________________________
If you're not retired, please don't make up your own rules. You (or your CA) did not have the "emergency authority" to land MIA w/ a 15 kt TW. You were lucky. What would you have said at the hearing, IF you guys dinged something on landing? Willful noncompliance ONLY gets you in trouble, or people hurt, or bent metal...unless you're "lucky". Don't chance it. Go to FLL/PBI/MCO and wait it out. We get paid by the minute. THERE IS NO MISSION.
KC135777
"I've landed at San Jose Costa Rica in a 757 with an authorized 15 knot tailwind because circling would have put us into the clouds because of rising terrain. The airport is at 3000 feet landing uphill. Next leg we flew to MIA and a cell was moving in from the west, us landing east. About a 4 mile final we got the windshift to a 15 knot tailwind. We had a 13,000 ft runway at sea level but now were not legal. I knew if we went around we would end up at Orlando because the cell would then close the airport for a while. Yes we decided to land because we had just done the same thing up in the higher airport with a much shorter runway. Was it right? No. It made sense and we heard nothing about it. Happened almost 10 years ago but the rules are the same today. What is safe and what is legal sometimes aren't the same. Normal tailwind limits for us on the 757 was 10 knots unless it was a special airport. I see it still is."
_______________________________________________________
If you're not retired, please don't make up your own rules. You (or your CA) did not have the "emergency authority" to land MIA w/ a 15 kt TW. You were lucky. What would you have said at the hearing, IF you guys dinged something on landing? Willful noncompliance ONLY gets you in trouble, or people hurt, or bent metal...unless you're "lucky". Don't chance it. Go to FLL/PBI/MCO and wait it out. We get paid by the minute. THERE IS NO MISSION.
KC135777
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
From: US
I did say it was not right. Before going to FLL or MCO we probably had enough time to land west with a storm approaching from the west. It eliminated going through an approach that would have put us at much more risk than landing on 13,000 ft runway with a 13,000 ft rwy we did on the previous leg with 8,000 ft. Thought sticking my neck out a tiny bit was worth it that day. Noticed the guys with the same restriction behind me landed too, knowing the alternative. I made the second turnoff to demonstrate it was not risky with 7,000 ft remaining just in case it would help at the hearing.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 801
Likes: 1
From: Southeast USA
Originally Posted by TowerDog
So a captain is incompent or has a brain-fart/bad day (Or brake/anti-skid failure) and the whole airline needs major corrective action?
If the only trend you can come up with is Little Rock, then the real trend is 8 million flights without over-runs between the Little Rock and Kingston accidents.
Suggest you stick to old 1011 stories and if AA or the NTSB need your advice, I am sure they will ask for it
If the only trend you can come up with is Little Rock, then the real trend is 8 million flights without over-runs between the Little Rock and Kingston accidents.
Suggest you stick to old 1011 stories and if AA or the NTSB need your advice, I am sure they will ask for it
December 24, 2008: American Airlines Flight 1544, a McDonnell Douglas MD-80 carrying 54 passengers and a crew of five from Chicago O'Hare Airport to Washington Reagan National Airport, skidded off the runway.
December 13, 2009, an MD-80 landing at Charlotte North Carolina touched down and went off the left side of the runway. While trying to get back onto the runway, the plane's right wingtip touched the ground.
December 22, 2009, a Boeing 737 overran a runway amid heavy rain at Norman Manley International Airport in Kingston, Jamaica, injuring 91 passengers.
December 24, 2009, an MD-80 en route from Chicago, Illinois, struck a wingtip landing in Austin, Texas.
When a guy with explosive skivvies shows up on an airplane, there are calls of "...and you never connected the dots?" How many dots does it take?
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 548
Likes: 15
From: US
The point is
That is a lot of incidents, (one accident), 4 in a year with (slightly) bent metal on landings. Have Delta, UA, CO had that many? They all fly about the same number of flights.
In the last 10 years has any other US major (not commuter) except AA had a fatality? (Southwest with one, again a dodgy landing)
The FAA is right to be poking around, those numbers demand attention. If I were a Lloyds name I'd be looking for extra on the AA book.
20driver
In the last 10 years has any other US major (not commuter) except AA had a fatality? (Southwest with one, again a dodgy landing)
The FAA is right to be poking around, those numbers demand attention. If I were a Lloyds name I'd be looking for extra on the AA book.
20driver
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
From: US
20driver said: "In the last 10 years has any other US major (not commuter) except AA had a fatality? (Southwest with one, again a dodgy landing)"
____________________________________________________________ _____
"except AA"? AA has NOT had a fatality in the last 10 years. The cowboys at Southwest (who's 250kts is 50kts faster than everyone else's) have the 1 boy in the MDW overshoot that was in the car.
KC135777
____________________________________________________________ _____
"except AA"? AA has NOT had a fatality in the last 10 years. The cowboys at Southwest (who's 250kts is 50kts faster than everyone else's) have the 1 boy in the MDW overshoot that was in the car.
KC135777
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 74
Likes: 2
From: Feriton
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
I always felt it was the plastic tail that did them in.
Still, he was only doing what he was apparently taught by the AA training department, and said training was completely inappropriate for a heavy jet transport airplane.
Joined: Feb 2006
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 490
Likes: 15
From: USA
HUD a hindrance?
The HUD has it's limitations. To think that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread was invented is silly.
Field of view issues. Lighting intensity issues, jumpiness of Flight Path Vector in turbulence, etc, etc.
Field of view issues. Lighting intensity issues, jumpiness of Flight Path Vector in turbulence, etc, etc.
There are countless single-seat military aircraft flying around using HUD as the primary flight reference.
Again -- these were not inexperienced crewmembers and it's highly doubtful that the CA was new to flying HUD.
Do you really think that the use of HUD will turn out to be causal in the accident report?
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 413
Likes: 47
From: FL, USA
Go to Hell 411A
Typical keyboard courage crap.
You wouldn't have the guts to speak your crap in front of any AA pilot.
Right or wrong this isn't the first time you've danced on the grave of a fallen AA pilot and a fellow airman.
Typical keyboard courage crap.
You wouldn't have the guts to speak your crap in front of any AA pilot.
Right or wrong this isn't the first time you've danced on the grave of a fallen AA pilot and a fellow airman.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,486
Likes: 8
From: The No Transgression Zone
said training was completely inappropriate for a heavy jet transport airplane
note assisting roll with rudder and control reversal
are different items altogethernote I'm not bashing nothing, just saying
I'm waiting for the answer like everyone else
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 370
Likes: 178
From: The sky
It's not just AA, although they do seem to be having more instances of poor airmanship than the other US majors. Every time I fly to US airspace I see things and hear things that make my skin crawl. For whatever reason there's a very different attitude to aviation in the US, both from ATC and the flight crew perspective. Don't get me wrong, there are some very competent individuals but there doesn't seem to be any control of those that underperform. And there are a lot of them.
I've had a TCAS RA on finals, parachutists spotted passing by our flightdeck, been shouted at for querying the landing runway after the 3rd switch, seen a near vertical visual approach by a 767 in SFO, and approach continued into the centre of a huge cell in Washington resulting in a g/a and a radio call along the lines of 'um, we're having trouble maintaining altitude', a visual approach that crossed the threshold at 600ft (from our TCAS).... All from US majors. And don't even get me started on LAHSO. Gash is a word that springs to mind.
The list goes on but you get the point, flying into US airspace can be like entering a 3rd world environment but the locals don't seem to be able to see it. Quite honestly I'm amazed there aren't more fatal accidents over there.
Just me two pennies' worth.
LD
I've had a TCAS RA on finals, parachutists spotted passing by our flightdeck, been shouted at for querying the landing runway after the 3rd switch, seen a near vertical visual approach by a 767 in SFO, and approach continued into the centre of a huge cell in Washington resulting in a g/a and a radio call along the lines of 'um, we're having trouble maintaining altitude', a visual approach that crossed the threshold at 600ft (from our TCAS).... All from US majors. And don't even get me started on LAHSO. Gash is a word that springs to mind.
The list goes on but you get the point, flying into US airspace can be like entering a 3rd world environment but the locals don't seem to be able to see it. Quite honestly I'm amazed there aren't more fatal accidents over there.
Just me two pennies' worth.
LD
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
You wouldn't have the guts to speak your crap in front of any AA pilot.
Right or wrong this isn't the first time you've danced on the grave of a fallen AA pilot and a fellow airman
Right or wrong this isn't the first time you've danced on the grave of a fallen AA pilot and a fellow airman
And, I have told several active (and retired) AA pilots to their face what I think...and they back away, promptly.
AA was, at one time, a first rate airline, it's pilot training was top notch, without exception.
Then...the older guys retired, and it all went to hell in a hen basket.
We can see this almost monthly/annually, with many incidents/accidents aplenty.
Cali, Colombia was the absolute final straw...IF I had been in charge of the FAA at that time, their operating certificate would have beeen withdrawn, pronto.
Little Rock, as well.
587...absolutely.
AA ops, absolute cr*p.
I know it, you (although ignoring facts) know it...and so does the FAA.
AA, a leader in the past...now, to be avoided, whereever possible.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
From: US
Zeffy,
The HUD is nice for some things but it has limitations. Even while the HUD is deployed your scan, IMO, needs to include the lower displays.
I doubt that the HUD will be an issue in the investigation.
High visibility, 360 degree FOV, canopies are great in fighters. However, there are problems with that visibility when flying IFR or at night on approach. Advances can have drawbacks. It's the total value that's important. The HUD is useful, but not 100% of the time.
The HUD is nice for some things but it has limitations. Even while the HUD is deployed your scan, IMO, needs to include the lower displays.
I doubt that the HUD will be an issue in the investigation.
High visibility, 360 degree FOV, canopies are great in fighters. However, there are problems with that visibility when flying IFR or at night on approach. Advances can have drawbacks. It's the total value that's important. The HUD is useful, but not 100% of the time.