US Airways
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: USA
Gentlemen (and possibly ladies), it's quite possible to have a civil conversation without the name calling. You might try it.
It's not that simple. Because of different cultures and systems, the merger in question with a direct date-of-hire merging would have put USAir FO's in many cases above America West captains.
A much better method was introduced by arbitration involving merging by means of relative position in the seniority chain. That is, those in the top third of seniority at one company merge with the top third of seniority at the other, and so on. this way a junior FO at one company isn't moved into a position being being senior to a senior captain at the other company. A much more equitable means of addressing the issue.
Whereas one company might take a year to upgrade and another eighteen...simply merging by date of hire does nothing to address fairness or equitability between the different parties. Their relative positions in seniority need to be considered every bit as much as the date of hire.
Merging is never an easy process, but it's entirely unfair and inappropriate to suggest that as a result of a merger a junior officer becomes senior to senior personnel at the other company. In this case, particularly so. USAir was five days out from bankrupcy, and was bought and salvaged by America West. Movement was slow in USAir, and USAir had more pilots. Presently there is still a great deal of divisiveness between the USAir pilots and the America West pilots, even though they're the same group. The USAir pilots are attempting to form their own union in the company which separates them from the America West pilots...again, even though they're the same company. Even though they were on the verge of becoming unemployed and the company going under, even though America West "saved the day."
What you have is a case of a body of pilots that were salvaged from a crumbling company with less than a week to go, who hope to move from junior positions to senior positions by means of the merger. Whereas they should have been grateful to have a job, they were not only ungrateful, but ignorantly adamant that they should get it all, including taking away the seniority of the company that bought them out and rescued their positions and future. They're still in the process of doing so, and in fact their own burgeoning union web site claims that they want what's their due. It was never their due...they're just trying to take everything they can get.
It's never so simple as going with date of hire, and being done with the matter, where more than one group is involved.
Let's face it-the one and only, the ONE and ONLY, way to integrate seniority lists is by SENIORITY!!!! Pure and simple, I entered the business before, or after you, hence I fit in before, or after, you. The whole idea that some subjective standards like, "my airline was stronger than yours" is ludicrous.
A much better method was introduced by arbitration involving merging by means of relative position in the seniority chain. That is, those in the top third of seniority at one company merge with the top third of seniority at the other, and so on. this way a junior FO at one company isn't moved into a position being being senior to a senior captain at the other company. A much more equitable means of addressing the issue.
Whereas one company might take a year to upgrade and another eighteen...simply merging by date of hire does nothing to address fairness or equitability between the different parties. Their relative positions in seniority need to be considered every bit as much as the date of hire.
Merging is never an easy process, but it's entirely unfair and inappropriate to suggest that as a result of a merger a junior officer becomes senior to senior personnel at the other company. In this case, particularly so. USAir was five days out from bankrupcy, and was bought and salvaged by America West. Movement was slow in USAir, and USAir had more pilots. Presently there is still a great deal of divisiveness between the USAir pilots and the America West pilots, even though they're the same group. The USAir pilots are attempting to form their own union in the company which separates them from the America West pilots...again, even though they're the same company. Even though they were on the verge of becoming unemployed and the company going under, even though America West "saved the day."
What you have is a case of a body of pilots that were salvaged from a crumbling company with less than a week to go, who hope to move from junior positions to senior positions by means of the merger. Whereas they should have been grateful to have a job, they were not only ungrateful, but ignorantly adamant that they should get it all, including taking away the seniority of the company that bought them out and rescued their positions and future. They're still in the process of doing so, and in fact their own burgeoning union web site claims that they want what's their due. It was never their due...they're just trying to take everything they can get.
It's never so simple as going with date of hire, and being done with the matter, where more than one group is involved.
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: No one's home...
PKB
Quite a few did resign and go elsewhere.
And I am not an 'east pilot' but am very familiar with the situation.
Also, if you had close to 15-20 yrs with the company and a family, I assume you would have just upped and gone back to New Zealand and started over? Not likely. Golden handcuff and all that.
The funny thing is listening to the various rationales of who should get hosed and why all in the name of 'fairness'. The facts are most pilots are not very altruistic since they know they live or die by seniority. As you probably well know, 1 number can be a lifetime difference. I know. I was once 1 number from a wide body bid in base and when the dust settled, I never got close to a widebody again except commuting to bottom reserve, something I was not willing to accept.
The only thing I can say with absolute confidence is I am glad I am not on either list.
if most of you east pilots had any idea of the situation you were in ....you would have left and found another job....
And I am not an 'east pilot' but am very familiar with the situation.
Also, if you had close to 15-20 yrs with the company and a family, I assume you would have just upped and gone back to New Zealand and started over? Not likely. Golden handcuff and all that.
The funny thing is listening to the various rationales of who should get hosed and why all in the name of 'fairness'. The facts are most pilots are not very altruistic since they know they live or die by seniority. As you probably well know, 1 number can be a lifetime difference. I know. I was once 1 number from a wide body bid in base and when the dust settled, I never got close to a widebody again except commuting to bottom reserve, something I was not willing to accept.
The only thing I can say with absolute confidence is I am glad I am not on either list.
Joined: May 2007
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From: waiting for the van
Let's face it-the one and only, the ONE and ONLY, way to integrate seniority lists is by SENIORITY!!!! Pure and simple, I entered the business before, or after you, hence I fit in before, or after, you. The whole idea that some subjective standards like, "my airline was stronger than yours" is ludicrous.
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
When I was hired at Eastern in '84, the contract and ALPA merger policy had no mention of "fairness". Fairness is NOT an objective standard, period. What one man calls fair, another screams "outrage" with his dying breath. Don't believe me, ask the Capitol guys at United, the Chicago & Southern and Northeast guys at Delta, the Air Cal and Trans Carib guys at American-every group screams unfairness at their merger lists. And then, there is the other blatant nonsense of asset transfers. When I was hired, we had just taken over the BN South America routes, BN pilots were figuring out where they would fit into our list. Management and the MEC, looked and said, "who are you?" Should have been merged into us, much to their long-term detriment.
Seniority is the one Objective standard. If they entered the industry ten years before you, you wait. Saying they had no futures and should be glad to have jobs, is just whistling before the graveyard and using hindsight to justify a good luck. AW, at its inception was not given much of a chance and USAir was coming off a decade of profits and was the darling of deregulation, then the mergers of Piedmont and PSA and Steve Wolf management came. DL was THE airline to get hired with, but no more.
The point of seniority is to eliminate these arguments, but it just fuels them. Glad my life isn't subject to this insanity anymore.
Just bomb-throwing: Why isn't America West, instead of US Airways??
Seniority is the one Objective standard. If they entered the industry ten years before you, you wait. Saying they had no futures and should be glad to have jobs, is just whistling before the graveyard and using hindsight to justify a good luck. AW, at its inception was not given much of a chance and USAir was coming off a decade of profits and was the darling of deregulation, then the mergers of Piedmont and PSA and Steve Wolf management came. DL was THE airline to get hired with, but no more.
The point of seniority is to eliminate these arguments, but it just fuels them. Glad my life isn't subject to this insanity anymore.
Just bomb-throwing: Why isn't America West, instead of US Airways??
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: USA
Fairness is NOT an objective standard, period.
Seniority is the one Objective standard. If they entered the industry ten years before you, you wait.
Seniority is based on date of hire at a particular company; something not necessarily relevant when two individual companies are merged. After all, I don't care who was hired on what date over at brand X; it doesn't affect me in any way, shape or form.
Unless, of course, they're going bankrupt, we save them, and then someone over there wants my job based on the date he was hired...at another company.
That's why the matter was arbitrated in the first place...and why it was decided by an expert arbitrator who had dealt with many airline mergers, that relative seniority was important if not more so than date of hire.
Seniority at my own place of hire is based on date of hire with this employer...nobody here could give a stuff about my date of hire with any former employer. During a merger then, nobody cares who was hired when with a former employer. The merger is an entirely new show, and an equitable (yes, fair) means of merging the seniority lists must be found. Date of hire with a former operator is not the only way, or even the most appropriate way, to do this.
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Looking at it more objectively, what is going to be accomplished with USAPA? They are still going to have to merge the lists, they probably cannot cram down their version of the list because of the arbitration decision. If they agreed to binding arbitration, what part of "binding" don't they understand. I'm not on anybody's side but I have watched this stories play out over the last forty years and it always ends in tears.
Could they run the new contract argument into a strike (when, if USAPA is certified) and hope numbers favor them? Looks like the NW/DL merger is going nowhere because of the pilots, but that situation will end badly, if the economy and oil prices stay the current course.
GF
PS My point is that ALPA could have avoided a lot of pain in 1978 by ALPA National setting a simple merger policy based solely on seniority THEN! It is not possible now after the TW/AA, AL/AW, PA/National, PA/DL mergers. Too much blood on the floor, but it would have worked. And I argued against it then on the EA MEC, thought it impossible in 1989.
Could they run the new contract argument into a strike (when, if USAPA is certified) and hope numbers favor them? Looks like the NW/DL merger is going nowhere because of the pilots, but that situation will end badly, if the economy and oil prices stay the current course.
GF
PS My point is that ALPA could have avoided a lot of pain in 1978 by ALPA National setting a simple merger policy based solely on seniority THEN! It is not possible now after the TW/AA, AL/AW, PA/National, PA/DL mergers. Too much blood on the floor, but it would have worked. And I argued against it then on the EA MEC, thought it impossible in 1989.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Roswell Georgia
With oil at record highs, speculation of large losses and of reduction in staff/aircraft at many of the airlines. The million dollar question is????
Who get's cut if/when USAirways decides to furlough???
Not trying to stir the pot, just curious.
In our current state, we have two lists, which list gets cut first?
Will it be done 1 for 1 on each side or maybe 1 from the west, 2 from the east, (since the east has twice as many pilots) or would it be done based upon whatever the company feels like doing?
It's a slippery slope!
Who get's cut if/when USAirways decides to furlough???
Not trying to stir the pot, just curious.
In our current state, we have two lists, which list gets cut first?
Will it be done 1 for 1 on each side or maybe 1 from the west, 2 from the east, (since the east has twice as many pilots) or would it be done based upon whatever the company feels like doing?
It's a slippery slope!
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Quote....."Looking at it more objectively, what is going to be accomplished with USAPA? They are still going to have to merge the lists"
.....jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezus!!!....reckon I,m going to chunder!!!I dont believe this
.....jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezus!!!....reckon I,m going to chunder!!!I dont believe this
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: In the State of Perpetual Confusion
I left USAir(ways) in the mid 90's when I decided that I just couldn't see them (union and company) getting their act together. Before that, I did sit through countless MEC meetings and have no problem believing that a large part of this mess was brought on by themselves. I've never seen a more dysfunctional group of people.
Now, with that I also have to admit that I would have been placed in that group of pilots that was hired in the late 80's, yet was placed below pilots with less than 3 years with AWA. I just don't see the equity in that. While I don't think that DOH is the solution in this case, neither do I see the method of stapling a large group of pilots with many years of service to the bottom of the list as the solution.
The reality of the situation right now is that there is a large group of pilots who think that they have nothing left to lose. You can go on as long as you want about binding arbitration (and you do have a point, they did agree to the process) but that decision is an abject failure of the process for the very reason that it disadvantaged a large enough group that the entire company is now at risk.
If you added up the benefits and risks right now, the smart thing would be for both groups to get back together to fix this mess. From what I read from the AWA side, I don't think that is going to happen. They seem intent on insisting on the application of the award. If and when this thing does tank, they will also shoulder at least some of the blame as they had the means to avoid this and instead let it happen.
Now, with that I also have to admit that I would have been placed in that group of pilots that was hired in the late 80's, yet was placed below pilots with less than 3 years with AWA. I just don't see the equity in that. While I don't think that DOH is the solution in this case, neither do I see the method of stapling a large group of pilots with many years of service to the bottom of the list as the solution.
The reality of the situation right now is that there is a large group of pilots who think that they have nothing left to lose. You can go on as long as you want about binding arbitration (and you do have a point, they did agree to the process) but that decision is an abject failure of the process for the very reason that it disadvantaged a large enough group that the entire company is now at risk.
If you added up the benefits and risks right now, the smart thing would be for both groups to get back together to fix this mess. From what I read from the AWA side, I don't think that is going to happen. They seem intent on insisting on the application of the award. If and when this thing does tank, they will also shoulder at least some of the blame as they had the means to avoid this and instead let it happen.
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Quote......I don't think that is going to happen. They seem intent on insisting on the application of the award.(AWA Pilots)
Gillegan.....appreciate the post,you points valid,and I dont take issue with any of it,,,except the above quote...
USAirways,agreeded to the aribtrator,and binding arbitration......nodody lost any seniority....I am still in the same percentile as I was as AWA.... IN FACT ...I lost 2%....but I,m more than happy to accomadate my "brothers
)on the east, to make this thing happen.....by your own admission you state they were/are a difficult bunch....that maybe so,but surely they must see the dilemma we are all in and rather than attack there best interests and fellow pilots,we should be taking it to the company
lets not forget,that the AWA pilots agreeded to allow THEIR TOP 500 PILOTS to the top of the list ,so that the training burden would not cost the company and them ......
your point concerning how this whole sagarso has evolved rings true...we know it.... ALPA knows it...ALPA pilots and carriers know it......so now we have to fix it ,not divide and conquer our own pilots and best interests!!!
GF.....cant argue that one....
Gillegan.....appreciate the post,you points valid,and I dont take issue with any of it,,,except the above quote...
USAirways,agreeded to the aribtrator,and binding arbitration......nodody lost any seniority....I am still in the same percentile as I was as AWA.... IN FACT ...I lost 2%....but I,m more than happy to accomadate my "brothers
)on the east, to make this thing happen.....by your own admission you state they were/are a difficult bunch....that maybe so,but surely they must see the dilemma we are all in and rather than attack there best interests and fellow pilots,we should be taking it to the companylets not forget,that the AWA pilots agreeded to allow THEIR TOP 500 PILOTS to the top of the list ,so that the training burden would not cost the company and them ......
your point concerning how this whole sagarso has evolved rings true...we know it.... ALPA knows it...ALPA pilots and carriers know it......so now we have to fix it ,not divide and conquer our own pilots and best interests!!!
GF.....cant argue that one....
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
PB: You wouldn't have a link to the arbitration award? I'd be interested in reading it, just so I don't have to talk out my a**. As I said, I've watched/participated in and been appalled by the stupidity of the industry for 40 years. I grew up around airline pilots, who never struck me as happy campers. If the award was based on merging individuals to the approximate equal relative positions from the old list to the new list, it should be equitable. EXCEPT, the relative ages will cause the older group to never "get over it", there claim will be "I didn't have the years to get promoted/make captain, etc." The one problem with ALPA is it is run by long-term officers who are more interested in politics than the industry. As an ex-EAL guy, I never could understand how Babbitt got to be president when his airline was gone! Jack Bavis was great guy personally, but did he ever fly the line? Hell, Randy Babbitt was a A300 F/O.
AWA must be a "younger" group, because every pilot at AL is old, hell, their junior guy must be over 45.
GF
AWA must be a "younger" group, because every pilot at AL is old, hell, their junior guy must be over 45.
GF
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: with the porangi,s in Pohara
GF...will try to get you that address....dont currently have it...
Average age AWA =46
Average age USAirways =52
those are the #,s I have....
would agree with your comments,about the politics,and ALPA is also realizing it.....but the agenda should be to restore some integrity and strength to this union as opposed to conquer and divide......
......buy the way,it was an east guy that shot the hole in the A/C....rumour has it he found an ALPA sticker on the floor ...and just "lost" it
Average age AWA =46
Average age USAirways =52
those are the #,s I have....
would agree with your comments,about the politics,and ALPA is also realizing it.....but the agenda should be to restore some integrity and strength to this union as opposed to conquer and divide......
......buy the way,it was an east guy that shot the hole in the A/C....rumour has it he found an ALPA sticker on the floor ...and just "lost" it
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Thanks, PB. Maybe it is a good thing that the two groups aren't flying together yet. The very structure of ALPA is set up to "divide and conquer" that's why ALPA National has no real power over the various MECs, why politics is all they can do in DC and why ALPA has been pretty ineffective at doing what unions are supposed to do--defend their members. Could they have done better, we'll never know. UAW is pretty united and they aren't doing so well, either. And who has heard of the United Steel Workers lately? Very difficult political situation and I'm a Republican.
GF
GF
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Quote....."Maybe it is a good thing that the two groups aren't flying together yet."
The company would be foolish to even try this....it is such a hostile environment currently, that safety would ultimately be comprised....word has it that the "no-fly" lists would be so full that it would never happen.........this is how pathetic this situation has become....consider yourself lucky not be involved....
Parker and co are in a dilemma and refuse to get into the fold.....they have bitten off more than they can handle and its becomes more apparent everyday........their ability to run this company on a day to day basis is nothing short of sabotage
The company would be foolish to even try this....it is such a hostile environment currently, that safety would ultimately be comprised....word has it that the "no-fly" lists would be so full that it would never happen.........this is how pathetic this situation has become....consider yourself lucky not be involved....
Parker and co are in a dilemma and refuse to get into the fold.....they have bitten off more than they can handle and its becomes more apparent everyday........their ability to run this company on a day to day basis is nothing short of sabotage
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From: Chicago, IL
USAPA in, ALPA out!!!
Vote results:
ALPA - 2254
USAPA- 2723
US Airways Pilots Leave ALPA Fold
WASHINGTON—The National Mediation Board (NMB) today announced that the pilots at US Airways have voted to leave the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA) and form a separate union as their collective bargaining representative. There were 5,238 eligible pilot voters. Of them, 2,723 voted for the US Airline Pilots Association and 2,254 voted for ALPA.
“I want to thank all of the pilots who fought for their union and their futures during this tough campaign,” said Capt. John Prater, president of ALPA. “We were obviously hopeful that a majority of all US Airways pilots would make a different decision.”
The pilots who fly for the new US Airways flew previously for America West Airlines and US Airways and have operated under separate Master Executive Councils within the ALPA structure. A dispute among a number of US Airways pilots arose over an independent arbitrator’s decision regarding the pilots’ seniority, leading to a decertification effort and the NMB election.
“As an ALPA volunteer for nearly 20 years I have witnessed firsthand how ALPA has helped individual pilots by saving their careers and by saving lives. It’s going to be extremely difficult for me personally and professionally to watch what happens to this pilot group now,” said Capt. Jack Stephan, chairman of the US Airways pilot group. “Industry consolidation is inevitable, and the economy is slowing. I believe that these challenges will be too much to ask of an untested, under-funded union.”
Over the last year, ALPA and many pilots from both groups have worked hard to mutually resolve the pilots’ differences and make progress in negotiations with the company.
“We will not become victims of this unsuccessful merger,” said Capt. John McIlvenna, chairman of the America West pilot group. “The America West pilots are unified and will fight for fair representation in order to protect our careers and families.”
Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilot union and will now represent more than 56,000 pilots at 41 airlines in the U.S. and Canada.
ALPA - 2254
USAPA- 2723
US Airways Pilots Leave ALPA Fold
WASHINGTON—The National Mediation Board (NMB) today announced that the pilots at US Airways have voted to leave the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA) and form a separate union as their collective bargaining representative. There were 5,238 eligible pilot voters. Of them, 2,723 voted for the US Airline Pilots Association and 2,254 voted for ALPA.
“I want to thank all of the pilots who fought for their union and their futures during this tough campaign,” said Capt. John Prater, president of ALPA. “We were obviously hopeful that a majority of all US Airways pilots would make a different decision.”
The pilots who fly for the new US Airways flew previously for America West Airlines and US Airways and have operated under separate Master Executive Councils within the ALPA structure. A dispute among a number of US Airways pilots arose over an independent arbitrator’s decision regarding the pilots’ seniority, leading to a decertification effort and the NMB election.
“As an ALPA volunteer for nearly 20 years I have witnessed firsthand how ALPA has helped individual pilots by saving their careers and by saving lives. It’s going to be extremely difficult for me personally and professionally to watch what happens to this pilot group now,” said Capt. Jack Stephan, chairman of the US Airways pilot group. “Industry consolidation is inevitable, and the economy is slowing. I believe that these challenges will be too much to ask of an untested, under-funded union.”
Over the last year, ALPA and many pilots from both groups have worked hard to mutually resolve the pilots’ differences and make progress in negotiations with the company.
“We will not become victims of this unsuccessful merger,” said Capt. John McIlvenna, chairman of the America West pilot group. “The America West pilots are unified and will fight for fair representation in order to protect our careers and families.”
Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilot union and will now represent more than 56,000 pilots at 41 airlines in the U.S. and Canada.
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From: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Weasil...these jokers are nothing more than SCABS....they dont have a solution or a fix....it is nothing but a personal vendetta against AWA pilots.....and that it in self is a crime....they are unhappy with ALPA /Doug Parker and themselves ...and yet the think this will solve the problem
If you think we had problems before,it will only get worse.....there is no way AWA pilots will pay these PR@CKS a cent!!!! this will be a lesson to all ...
SCUM!!!! NOTHING BUT SCUM!!!!SELFISH SCUM
If you think we had problems before,it will only get worse.....there is no way AWA pilots will pay these PR@CKS a cent!!!! this will be a lesson to all ...
SCUM!!!! NOTHING BUT SCUM!!!!SELFISH SCUM
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: with the porangi,s in Pohara
GF ..have always appreciated your point of view,not always agreed but you seem well balanced....and Ive been educated also.....but this has now become absurb to the extent that this "group" have no idea what they are doing or up against
no structure,no money no apprectiation for personal lives....they are *****..all for the sake of "date of hire"/.....the vote was so close,do you think those that voted against this, will finance this sagarso....I WONT!!! ...and most wont...it is a sad day for all
mate!!! no reason to be sarcastic either
no structure,no money no apprectiation for personal lives....they are *****..all for the sake of "date of hire"/.....the vote was so close,do you think those that voted against this, will finance this sagarso....I WONT!!! ...and most wont...it is a sad day for all
mate!!! no reason to be sarcastic either