Dysfunctional ...
 

...
I'm told .... the CEO no longer answers even serious emails from his employees questioning frequent failures of the operation - passes them to a middle-manager for fob-off replies. The discredited COO is on his way back to Engineering. The new saviour COO doesn't take post until October. Several different airlines (mostly from Spain) are contracted to fly the BA summer services that BA can't manage and IT is apparently now being masterminded by IAG.

As for pay, they're trying to ignore BALPA and perpetuate a significant covid pay cut - see my concurrent thread - https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearm...a-pay-cut.html - Some fascinating replies, thank you. Now it's apparently in the Telegraph.

If you ever wonder about the meaning of 'dysfunctional' sit down with a couple of Tubby Linton's cold 'uns and read this recent Employment Tribunal Judgment - sent to me by a well-wisher. Page 1 will tell you all you need to know.

https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribun...841-slash-2020

Shocking - I tell you ! Utterly shocking !!

LFH

First off, the last two years has seen BALPA have to say “OK” to some things we would never normally countenance. No one knew how this was all going to play out and, quite rightly, the focus at the beginning of the pandemic during great uncertainty was the preservation of members jobs.

The bigger question and one we don’t really know the answer to is why the 2019 strike was called off, seemingly in the middle of the dispute and with little to show for it. Only a handful of people currently know the answer to this and no one is talking.

I do have some sympathy with balpa. People seem to believe that if they just asked for stuff BA would hand it over. Ultimately any meaningful concessions from BA rely on one of two things. Forget woolly talk of “morale” or “loyalty” or “doing the right thing”. These things are worth nothing to BA. The first is market forces, if they cannot recruit sufficient people - we shall see how the new campaign goes. Second would be successful strike action, or the threat of it, changing their calculus somehow. After 2019 I can understand why some were not keen to rush down this path. Make no mistake though, with other unions now seeing high single digit pay rises we are on the fast track to confrontation. This time around I don’t think its a fight BALPA can afford to lose.

Genuinely sorry you feel that way about EZY. Personally I think the name fits pretty well, because even at LGW I think we’ve got it pretty good. I’ve rarely felt tired/fatigued and don’t seem to pass 70 hours a month, even before C-19 during summer. The pay initially isn’t great I’ll agree, but a command in 6 years and being on £135k is not the worst deal. In the two years before COVID I did 680 and 645 hours respectively. Not bad for full time!

Being someone in the BA holdpool, I feel there are enough people ‘warning’ me of the current climate, not just on this thread but also in person. For all your sakes I hope you are able to resolve your disputes with the company, and be treated with the respect you all deserve. While it was once my ideal job, I don’t think I have thick enough skin to deal with the BS you guys are facing! Good luck.

So for the ones who had to fill in the update info form for BA, after you fill in all your updates it said we have no further info on timescales etc. so back in limbo again. This campaign is 2023 and beyond and primarily A320. So this could well drag on into 2024 if the economy isn’t doing well and it doesn’t look like LH is going to happen and from what people are saying, SH doesn’t seem great at all :/

Can anyone inside ba comment on the need for LH recruitment? I can’t imagine fleets like the 787 are undercrewed atm, probably overcrewed/oversubscribed in fact :/

It is likely there will be no LH recruitment as LH is so heavily oversubscribed by SH pilots who are free to bid. They get priority over DEPs. That being said there may be a small amount of LH DEP recruitment if training capacity limits are reached, but none is planned at this stage.

The 787 is currently overcrewed due delayed deliveries. The 787 and 350 will have demand in 2023 for more heads but will be so popular internally I’d be very surprised if DEPs got a sniff at those. The 777 and 380 fleets will need heads as pilots from those fleets move on to command and to the 787/350. As to whether or not DEPs get a sniff at 777/380 depends on how popular those fleets are internally. A 6 year freeze on a dieing fleet vulnerable to the next downturn will put a lot of people off internally as in BA redundancy is now done by fleet.

Thanks chiefwilly, confirming what I suspected :/ is it a possibility that there are still people sitting in the existing hold pool beyond 2023 or is that very unlikely would you say?

I gather the PRP pilots who want to return to BA will have done so by this year so 2023 should be PHP (not many) and DEPs.

Perhaps someone who was at Virgin in around 2012 will tell you what BALPA are capable of?

Does anyone know if they are using Boeing or Airbus sim for DEP assessment?

PHP
 

Has anyone in the PHP heard back from BA following the recent email re expression of interest in EF?
I wonder where those of us in the PHP stand now BA are recruiting direct entry.
I believe the php included cadets and tagged white tails not sure of numbers?
Any information would be greatly appreciated!

(Some) TRd members of the PHP have been issued start dates and contracts.

There’s some confusion with members of the holdpool thinking they are PHP, this isn’t the case

BA short-haul is full of ex ezy pilots.

If you're considering leaving ezy (or any other reputable airline in the UK!) this time round, you seriously need to think long and hard. You'd be leaving a stable secure outfit (that made no compulsory redundancies) to join BA at the bottom of the seniority list in an airline that has proven it will get rid of junior pilots with the click of a finger.

If you're leaving some dodgy ACMI/Mid East outfit and desperate to get back to the UK, then use BA as a stepping stone.

are BA type ratings still unbonded?

As a previously orange, now BA short haul pilot I feel duty-bound to chime in and concur with the above warnings. easyJet may have its gripes but do not fall into the greener grass trap as I did, nor for that matter any of the absolute garbage you may read in the job adverts about them "listening and caring", or switching fleet "when it suits your career" (read: when and IF it suits BA).
The harsh reality is that JSS will decimate your lifestyle, you'll have a perpetual basic pay cut of anywhere between 4 and 10% per month (but they won't tell you until the day before payday), and you'll likely find yourself participating in industrial action in the not-too-distant future. All with now markedly less job security.

I wholeheartedly agree with the above - if you need to return to the UK, go for it. If you're in a half decent outfit already, then you'll be in for a shock.

Is that right about unfrozen pilots have a right to a fleet move ahead of DEPs ?
and is it redundancy by fleet now?
I suspect BA will leave the option of LH DEP open to tempt applicants if NV LH they’ll offer SH in the hope some will take it.

If you haven't already then you might want to look at this thread:

https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearm...a-pay-cut.html

and in particular the posts by the likes of Twosugars..

I was at BA when it hit the fan just over two years ago and the opinion was the company very very much wanted redundancy by fleet. They didn't quite get that. Whilst BALPA had it's critics over their part of how some of it was handled I think they did well to avoid the whole 744 pilot force being given the bullet....

If there's a next time around who knows what will happen but the intent of management was pretty clear.

Yes it is “right”. Whether or not BA stick to their own rules though is anyone’s guess.

BA tried to make the 747 and LGW pilots all redundant. BALPA changed it and pilots are paying for it via the “delta”. But ultimately BA have set a precedent for redundancy by fleet. This might make the 777 and 380 less popular for internal moves, so yes it is possible that there will be LH DEP recruitment to those fleets. I can’t see DEPs to the 787 and 350 but then again, this is BA and they tend to do what they want.

Ah thank you Chief and Wiggy.
sounds like buyer beware

Are you a cadet/tagged yourself?

Potentially another naïve question from me but a few Nigels in here have provided some great answers so far so here goes:

I’m reading a lot about the toxic management/culture within BA. Now, I can only go on my own experience at my current outfit, but aside from being disappointed in the decision-making at executive level on some things as a whole, I think I’ve probably had one firm interaction with pilot management in the last four years. Part of the beauty of flying is shutting the aircraft door behind you and switching off, and as long as the folks you’re flying with are good sorts you have a nice day out. Is BA management/ops run differently? Are you constantly in contact with your line managers/senior mgmt to a point where their ethos on how to run an airline gets in the way?

my experience at BA is similar to yours. I've not had a single interaction with management that was actually management related. Day-to-day you are left alone to get the job done. So long as you aren't constantly cocking everything up you won't hear from anyone.

The daily frustrations are more related to the way the different departments are seemingly under resourced making it impossible to deliver the service that we would like to give the passengers. Despite our best efforts, it's far too often that something out of our control thwarts the plan and we are apologising again.
As a really common example, we will arrive on time only to have our stand occupied for half an hour, then another 10 minute wait to get the stand guidance switched on. So frustrating to be burning huge amounts of fuel and watching dozens of passengers miss their connections because of some invisible upstream problems that we don't really understand. Oh and then there will be too few wheelchairs and no one around to get more, leaving us waiting with the pax on board, again apologising.

All sounds very familiar!

Are those not airport issues rather than airline?

I had the same issue with Swiss at the weekend landing at T2 and we were on time departure and flight duration was dead on the flight plan (as per Aerobrief)

Aircraft operate really well as long as they never go near an airport.

Hahaha brilliant 😆

I guess the question is more "What is it like working for BA" than "What operational issues are BA's fault".

Yes some of the issues are out of BA's control, but some definitely are. And some are somewhere inbetween.... e.g. bringing in the lowest cost subcontractor - ok technically the issue might be their fault but what after you have voluntarily given that remit away from your direct control, and to a third party highly motivated to drive down cost, I think you share some responsibility.

I’m in the regular hold pool. I had an email update to say as I completed all stages I don’t need to reapply for this recruitment drive, just to update some details.

Havent had any other information the email just said to fill in the form and we hope to have further information soon.

In the process of converting back to CAA license just in case it’s sooner than expected but really not sure

“PRP is done (a few holding out for long haul offers but SH offers have been made), PHP I believe is mostly all done too, but may not quite be finished. I there were only about 30 in that group.”

Errr…. I don’t think so? I’m in the PRP and haven’t been offered anything yet, LH or SH. Just getting email updates of intentions to offer something shortly and looking forward to being welcomed back in the coming months.

Everyone has been offered the opportunity to go to LGW. For good reason, many have elected not to take that offer up. I believe offers have been made to those in the PHP but only for LGW positions declined by others.

(Some) TR’d in the PHP have been offered EF and have start dates/contracts.

The PHP is larger than just 30.

There is nothing even hinted about people in the existing holdpool being mixed with the current recruitment campaign; quite the opposite in fact, they’ve been told that others will not be recruited before them.

No info on how or where cadets are placed, apologies.

When people say recruitment drive for next summer do they mean the recruitment stages / campaign during next summer OR are we talking recruitment drive pre Easter for dates starting next summer?

Also it correct to say that absolutely no one has been offered LH courses?

I suppose there’s no way people in the regular hold pool will be offered LH before a PRP or a PHP person right?

Any update on the delayed 787s?

Have you been able to get any idea from BA of numbers waiting in the holdpool?

Apparently BA's jets have been moved out of storage to the boeing plant for rework before delivery late Autumn. 787 is currently overcrewed and very probably over subscribed with internal bidders.

As has been said before, its possible but unlikely anyone will be offered LH from this round and extremely unlikely the 787, but then stranger things have happened. This is the recruitment round for next summer as the lead time (advert, application, interviews, job offers, notice periods etc) come up to around 8+ months in reality.

If you join just be prepared for junior SH life. Its not actually all that bad, there are some brilliant nightstops and with a huge varied route network the flying is challenging and rewarding. Whilst pay is a “current theme” there are much worse places out there and BA’s pension contributions are pretty good by modern standards. You are fed and watered onboard and there are various corporate perks too. The career path still eventually offers you longhaul or a shorthaul command if that’s the path you want to go down.

Thanks Chief Willy,

so by that logic, if the new campaign recruits are expected to have actual start dates in Summer next year, it can be assumed that the entire PRP, PHP, and current hold pool will be completed emptied and everyone in those 3 categories will have been offered a job in some form be it SH or LH for start dates BEFORE summer?

I’d have thought so, yes. But then this is all subject to world events etc. If you want to apply I’d go for it, don’t be too put off by the negatives. I honestly believe there are no really good pilot jobs out there any more.

I've 2 questions about the application process I'd be grateful if people could answer:

Does anyone know when we can expect to hear an answer to our application and when assessment days are expected?

What simulator is the assessment going to be in? I believe it was 747 or 767 in the past though I presume those sims have been removed ..

Cheers

Thanks Chief Willy! I'm sitting in the hold pool wondering when/if there'll be a call

When people talk about internal bidders and movements internally, when do these movements actually happen? Is there a set date during the year or is it on a rolling basis? For example, if it is the former then will there not be a date by which we will know what the actual internal movements were?

Traditionally, there would be a bidding process in around June / July (known as "PRIAM" for... reasons). You'd submit what fleet / seat you'd want to move to. The computer would crunch the numbers vs the network plan (what aircraft are doing what routes, + deliveries - retirements etc) for the next year, and eventually there'd be output a big list with everyone's bid on it, and if you're successful next to your chosen bid would be "OK". OK bids would be allocated by seniority - start at number 1 and work down.

The actual courses would be allocated in seniority order. You'd officially get notified of your course in the monthly bid pack, so about 6 weeks notice of a start date.

Thats the basic version. Theres various edge cases (waifs, pay protection, forced / aspirational bids, MOP, etc etc) that arent really relevant for this discussion.

However there's been a change for this year. Instead of one big bid, which was usually hopelessly out of date by the time the courses started, we're having a rolling bid. The bidding process will be open for months, you can change your bid as and when, and at some indeterminate point (I've heard every 3 months, but that's not official) a snap shot of people's bids will be taken. Results will be published and courses allocated in a similar way to the above. There won't be one published list (GDPR), youll get your results individually, but I'm sure the number crunchers will provide some results to show what the lowest successful seniority bid for each fleet & seat was.

The bid is currently open. I haven't heard when it will close (the old PRIAM bid had a defined closing date).

Thanks for the explanation.

So whenever it is that this "bid" closes will shed light to the recruitment team about where people exactly are going to be needed and when?