bmi bid form
 

The bid form seems full of pitfalls !

Does anyone have any advice , please , especially re the baby option ?

Just wait and see what developes. Although it looks like the mainline could be baby conditions with a different colour scheme on the aircraft

Count von Altibar suggests that mainline could be baby conditions with a different colour scheme on the aircraft .

There seems to be an assumption that we , the workforce , have no part to play in establishing what our terms and conditions will be . We should'nt "wait and see what develops" , we should take an active part in developing our future conditions .

Waiting + seeing what develops = TOO LATE .




(not getting at the Count personally--apologies that it might read that way !)

Anthony,

Sorry to hear about your frustration concerning the bid. Sounds like a tough situation.

Question for you: are airbus/fokker pilots allowed to bid for BMIBABY or just boeing pilots? What will happen with the Fokkers at EMA and their crews - will they transition onto the 737s if they already are based/live at EMA? Are the Fokker pilots screwed?

Good luck

Anthony Carn,

If you're a BALPA member, I suggest you consult someone on the CC who will try to advise you how you should bid.

If you're not a member, I suggest you join!

Chalky

Roger,

"Do the CC know any more than the rest of us ? "

They probably have as much information at their disposal as anyone, and are there to answer member's questions and give advice when asked

"Did they see the latest carnage coming ?"

No, because the Director of Flight Operations doesn't deem it necessary or beneficial to give the Pilots' Representatives a "heads up" on what might be coming. If he did, he might have avoided much of the uncertainty that his recent statements have left in the minds of his workforce while he calmly sails his yacht down to Faro.

"As one who resides in the bottom half of the seniority list, It all seems to be crystal-ball gazing anyhow"

Bottom half of the Seniority List AND getting Scale B? Can't be many people in that position.....

Chalky

(N.B. THIS MESSAGE ADDED IN RETROSPECT -- AT THIS POINT IN THE THREAD , OTHER POSTERS REPLIED WITH THEIR VIEWS BUT SUSEQUENTLY THEIR POSTS WERE REMOVED FOR SOME REASON . TO EXPLAIN ANY DISCONTINUITY , THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE IS DISPLAYED ON MY POSTS --"(the post which prompted my response below has been removed for some reason , but my response is still relevant)"

There has been a post suggesting that knowing what to bid for is all crystal-ball gazing anyway .

I accept that there is a large element of truth in this . The nature of the business is to blame for one thing . We don't know what hidden agendas some parties may be withholding . etc etc

But my point here is that the intelligent ones amongst us can at least put their minds to work on what the pitfalls may be and what are sensible courses of action based upon what we know at the moment . If these ideas are then promulgated amongst the pilots via this forum , then at least we are doing the best we can as a group to avoid big mistakes .

So to repeat an earlier request , please contribute any ideas you may have . Someone may come up with a suggestion which shows your ideas to be incorrect , or alternatively you may give someone else a viewpoint that they had'nt thought of .

(the post which prompted the response below has been removed for some reason , but my response is still relevant)

to KingoftheRoad

I hope to encourage any ideas from anyone at all who cares to contribute regarding the bid form . There may be ideas or twists that I had'nt thought of , or even blindingly obvious things I'd missed . It's a complex subject . It does'nt hurt to share ideas , and it may help a lot .

I think that any red herrings from wherever will either be very obvious or simply come across as daft . The main red herrings I've noticed re other discussions are attempts to steer a post off topic .

The topic here is "do you have any ideas to contribute re the bid form" .

(the post which prompted the response below has been removed for some reason , but my response is still relevant)

to BoxcarWilhomena

Just doing my best , as I see it , but thanks for the input . Could well be elimination by abreaction ! I DO feel better for it !

Contacted the moderator some time ago re difficulties accessing the bmi forum and repeated the enquiry recently . Am awaiting a reply . You are correct to point me there , of course , and I did try !I'm no computer whizz , that's for sure , so could well be my fault .

Regards

(the post which prompted my response below has been removed for some reason , but my response is still relevant)

to KingoftheRoad

The concept of rebasing to CWL fills me , personally , with nothing other than complete dread . (just my understated opinion )

I'd be giving up my present base and life in order to commit myself to a job at a location which has not , shall we say , been one of the most successful in the UK , to be diplomatic .

Should the venture fail , I would be situated in a remote location , with no decent alternatives within commutable distance .

Too many extremely valuable eggs in one very fragile basket !

bmi Bid Forms
 

Ladies/Gentlemen,

I STRONGLY advise you to get legal advice before completing your bid forms.

There are implications you may not have thought of when returning the completed form.

Remember, you don't have to return the form at all!!

MP:(

Pete makes an excellent point.

I would have thought it would be hard for them to enforce a ruling from a document they are about to abolish. Anyway, you may have posted your bid form, but what happens if they lose it? Might delay things a bit..............;)

I still fail to see how they can expect a bid to be made based on the fact that the whole systems about to be turned upside down.
How long will a bid be valid? What are the company's obligations regarding your bid? With no AFS, there are no answers to these questions. Seems to me the best course of action is for nobody to bid until the terms of the bid are laid out in black and white.

Otherwise it's like being asked to sign a contract with the small print to be added at a later date.............

Kof the R

The bid form specifies what you can bid for depending on your fleet and base. At least that's the way I read it and understand from the form that I saw.

This means that if you are on say X fleet at LHR you cannot bid for Y fleet at CWL.

How can this be a free and valid bid under the terms of the AFS?

Please correct me if I am mistaken.

MP;)

King of the Road

'tis indeed truly a can of worms. To be honest, I see no easy solutions. As I said somewhere before, everyone needs to get together and decide what is and what isn't acceptable, hopefully with help from Balpa.......the point is, it needs to done sooner rather than later.

I hear that over 100 bid forms have already been returned to the company. Don't know whats on them but I would be very suprised if they have more than a few volunteers for CWL. What a mess!.

bmi Baby bids
 

It occurs to me that by bidding for bmi Baby you are indicating your willingness to leave the company, albeit remaining within the group. This could be construed as accepting/bidding for voluntary redundancy.

Any views?

Yellow Sun

Ah, now, but, see....

You submit a bid which, in accordance with the AFS, must be considered strictly in seniority order and that alone... BUT... the form specifies who and how many may apply for what. This is in contravention of the above-mentioned AFS. The same AFS that 'they' now say they're not necessarily going to get rid of...they're only bringing to our attention that they may give notice of rescinding it. But then if they don't, the bid form will be based on meaningless information. Oh, and by the way, they won't stck to it, anyway.

Do you remember the basis of 'Catch-22'? You could be released from the US army in grounds of insanity but you had to apply for it. If you were capable of applying, by definition you had to be sane enough to fill in the form and could not thereby be insane enough to qualify for release.

Just a thought...........woof, yip!




Now see, Rita, I've kept a nice piece of topside for you.


:rolleyes:

Think I'll change my handle to Yosarian.....

Catch-22 says it all.:eek:

There is a thread on the "Terms and Endearment" forum entitled "bmi bid form" which relates closely to this one . This thread was started some days ago .

This is , perhaps , worth parallel visits to ensure that nothing is missed . You may even wish to contribute your ideas !

Note that KingoftheRoad has a sales pitch for CWL on the other forum which , it could be argued , contadicts his comment re CWL in his first post listed above ( you now seem to agree with the rest of the universe that CWL is UNdesirable , or am I mistaken , KingoftheRoad ?) . Draw your own conclusions . I would suggest that it is very important to study the views of all contributors and not just the sales pitches (and yes , I did make a lot of contributions to the other forum thread , for which I offer no apology !).

THESE THREADS WERE IN FACT COMBINED ON 18TH AUG.
THE POST REFERRED TO ABOVE HAS BEEN REMOVED FOR SOME REASON , BUT MY COMMENTS ARE STILL RELEVANT.

The "Reporting Points" forum contains a thread entitled "bmi bid forms" which has just been started .

Either no-one visits Terms and Endearment or I asked the wrong question to start with . However , "they also serve who only stand and wait" , so I assume that all the visitors to this thread
have made it of some value , even if those visitors only "stood and waited" . Thanks for that .

Maybe you'd like to view both forums to ensure that you miss nothing .

THESE THREADS WERE IN FACT COMBINED ON 18TH AUG.

Dear MaximumPete

It took you just 5days 1hour 7minutes since your last posting thus proving that aweek really is a long time in politics.:rolleyes:

I thought that the CC had issued a letter to all BALPA members describing how to bid , and that one of the instructions was to IGNORE THE ALLOCATION TABLE on the bid form .

I suggest that you all don't trust a confirmation on here--- but CHECK WITH A CC MEMBER !

(by the way , if you're not in BALPA then you DESERVE CAP 371 and all the other potential horrors ! )

I feel sorry for you guys. BM management excel again at making life very difficult, when there are better ways available.

However, do not rely on the AFS or any agreement you think you have with the company. Dan-Air pilots had a long standing formal agreement with the Company concerning seniority and first in last out in the event of downsizing or fleet/base closure. When the redundancies were announced (at the same time as BA bought the company for £1) the only pilots to keep their jobs were those on 737CFM LGW based. (BA indemnified the Dan Air directors from legal claims arising from this decision, which Dan-Air directors were reluctant to make). The most junior pilot in Dan-Air is now in BA, and the most senior was made redundant. Balpa was ( or chose?) to be impotent, and because of the costs of fighting the case the courts were of limited help.

Stick together, ensure the Balpa reps do their job with full back up from Frohnsdorf and others. You can't do much about the commercial realities of life with the recession and 9/11. You have to present the management with an acceptable solution to their problem, because they appear incapable of doing it themselves. Hopefully they will see how a committed workforce will be good for the long term future of BM.

Good luck.

Ref fiftyfour's comments , "The acceptable solution to the problem , which we should present to the management" is , would you believe , the CURRENT AFS , is'nt it ?

If the company can't make efficient use of the CURRENT AFS that's not our fault , nor should we suffer for it !

So that's the message we ALL , AS INDIVIDUALS need to make sure BALPA has got loud and clear , is'nt it ! The only way to do that is to write to BALPA telling them that that is what YOU , AS AN INDIVIDUAL , want . Dead easy , except for getting motivated enough to find a pen , paper , envelope and stamp . Oh dear , such obstacles ! You'll do it tomorrow -- I know . Someone else will do it -- I know . It won't make any difference -- I know . Were all doomed -- I know . My wrist hurts too much to write -- no comment !


(Sorry to deviate from the start topic , got a bit excited there .)

Boxcar Wilhomena,

I lost my Class 1 again for two reasons, one of which was to have a sub mucosal resection of my septum (nose job) on the company BUPA. This worked very well but the other problem prevented my return to work.

I took enhanced early retirement on the 28th February this year.

If you want the full info e-mail me privately, phone a friend or ask the audience.

MP;)

What started out as a bit of advice has developed into an interesting thread.

Now just two questions:-

1. Is the bid form you have been sent the same as in the AFS?

2. Has the CC agreed with the company to these "minor" changes
in format?

If the answer to both is NO the company is outside the AFS and you don't have to return your bid form

MP;)

K of the R

See you at the Easy roadshow at EMA?

MP;)

( The erroneous interpretation which I refer to below was later removed for some reason , but the comments given below are still very relevant)

BY MY UNDERSTANDING , an erroneous interpretation of the fleet allocation procedures has been posted herein , which cannot go unchallenged.

If you're 737 based LHR , then you are designated as being on a declining fleet and have ABSOLUTE PRIORITY BIDDING RIGHTS OVER ANYONE ELSE .

In addition , if you make a bid and there are too many pilots to allow you onto your fleet of choice , then pilots at the VERY BOTTOM of the COMPANY seniority list are made redundant in order to make a vacancy for you . (There is nothing you could do to save a colleague from redundancy in this case even if you wanted to -- too many pilots = some must go ) .

To assume that you must bid for baby CWL on the basis of there being nothing else is TOTALLY INCORRECT . This error was my main concern .

Suggest a check with a CC member if you doubt this .

I thought that I MUST raise this point if only to encourage a double check by everyone -- it could otherwise have had serious consequences .

By the way , there is an exchange of views regarding CWL on Terms and Endearment under "bmi bid form" which may be relevant .

Anthony Carn,

You are completely correct.

Regards

flappless

For what it's worth I live in sunny Cardiff. Lovely place. Unfortunately the airline I moved here for MANY moons ago went bust and no-one else seems to be able to make a go of the base. So for the last 14-and-a-half years I seem to have spent my life on motorways various. NOT recommended. And as for being welcomed with open arms at BRS with a 737 rating/command.........forget it.

luddite

You start your post with "For what it's worth...."

Feedback like this from real life victims such as you is worth a heck of a lot , and certainly much more than any of our predictions/fears/worries .

I totally agree with every aspect of your post , and have suggested as much further back in this thread .



I must disagree with one thing though , if you'll forgive me.........
CARDIFF-----SUNNY ??????
---or do you mean between the raindrops ?
My family and I once abandoned a holiday in Wales because it NEVER stopped raining !


My sympathies with your predicament , especially being stuck with it for so long -- must be horrendous .

What a load of tosh !

Sorry to have to add such value to this debate !

Good old flappless, jumps in with both feet as usual, enlightening us all with his erudite opinion.

Obviously can't see a 'tongue-in-cheek' post if it jammed in his flaptrack fairing. :D

Maximum Pete.

Please leave it up to BALPA to sort this mess out! Get on with your retirement and stop bashing Midland! There is a correct place to discuss this, and that's the bmi Balpa web site where only THOSE who are involved can discuss it.


I used to like PPRuNe, I thought that the 'P' stood for professional, now it's just a forum for whingers!

Roger Millar says

But don't forget that this won't apply to those off to the playground, where there is no relocation package.

'Trailers for sale or rent
Rooms to rent fifty cents'

Yep, that's Cardiff:p

J & J,

I was a 727 captain in Dan-Air.

I argued & debated endlessly with my fellow BALPA members.

I left it to BALPA.

I lost my job .

just a few points:-
 

I am no expert on the AFS, but in my humble opinion the rules (as they stand 'til april 2003)would allow more 737 LHR -> AIRBUS LHR fleet transfers than is being quoted here.

Kingoftheroad:- assuming AnthonyCarn's "FLEET CONTRACTION" statement is adhered to by the company-(as it should be)-Ref. AFS 1.11-G.1 ,then assuming every 737LHR pilot bid for AIRBUS LHR-there ought to be 80 places available to the 80 most senior 737 pilots,capts. OR f/os. :-The 40 most senior getting their places as per company requirement on the bid form,and the next 40 by displacing any outstation bids.-(total AIRBUS places LHR=80 according to bid form).

Next should be the FKR places (17 I think), at LHR. These should also be offered to 737LHR pilots to fill the co.req'mt.

Then comes the disruptive bit:-
Assuming no FKR EMA pilots want to transfer to Baby, then they, I assume,would displace pilots from the bottom of the list in accordance with seniority.
Also,the 45-odd 737 pilots in-between would be without aircraft or base and would potentially be made redundant.

As we all know there are many variables in this:-

1)Several pilots will (or already have) decided that playing ball for all these years does not grant immunity from the bat being shoved up your *rse,and will be making plans elsewhere.

2)Several pilots in the aforementioned 80 will be happy to give the Baby option a go-particularly if they are single/young,etc or are close to retirement.

3)Quite a few FKR pilots from the outstations will probably go down the baby route,even if they are senior enough to displace some of those from the bottom of the list.

4)The company (in theory) will be bound by the AFS 'til APR 03.Any fule kno that the level of training required in the above scenario will be far in excess of the company ideal,so,come next APR, will we have any protection against being screwed still further?BALPA take note*.

This is my own personal view on the situation,and I apologise if I've missed something obvious.

Best of luck everybody,keep in there BALPA,

SKIP.RAT

( In my post below , I refer to what I interpreted as being a misleading statement by another member . The misleading statement has subsequently been removed . My post is still very relevant . )

All of the following is based upon my understanding .

Sorry to repeat myself , but the main point here is that you can't be made redundant solely on the basis of your current fleet .

Redundancies start at the bottom of the company seniority list and work upwards one by one without skipping anyone .

My main point in the original post (above) was to challenge a VERY misleading statement on the thread , along the lines that if a 737 pilot could'nt be found a place on the Airbus or the Fokker , then all that would be left would be baby --- THIS IS SIMPLY NOT CORRECT AND COULD LEAD TO SOME DISASTEROUS DECISIONS .

If you are on the 737 , then you , quite simply , MUST REPEAT MUST be found a position on the Airbus or Fokker , even if it means displacing someone else less senior ( unless , as I've just said , you are at the very bottom of the company seniority list , in which case you are the first in line if there are redundancies , and would be first in line , anyway , regardless of your fleet ) .

The answer , can I suggest , is "don't sign anything" until you've spoken to a CC member and are VERY clear about your bid decisions . (If you're not in BALPA , then you can only expect to be in the dark !)

I'm attempting to prevent disasters due to misunderstandings . However , I'd be mortified if I've got it wrong somewhere and cause any career problems , so please check with BALPA , I beg .

And that definitely applies big time to some of the other posts herein ! (no offence) .



By the way , when the Fokker goes in 18 months or whenever , for "737" in the above ramble , just replace with "Fokker" as the aircraft going , and for the fleet you MUST REPEAT MUST be found a position on just replace "Airbus or Fokker" with "Airbus" . (unless we get something in addition to the Airbus etc. etc.)

J and J

I see you have registered today to make a personal attack.

Fine, 'cos that is your right.

Such a shame you don't feel able to use your proper name or your regular pprune name.

Contrary to your belief I am enjoying my retirement and am fortunate enough to continue flying light aircraft. My concerns are purely for my ex-colleagues.

What would be my reasons for having a go at bmi?

No doubt you can enlighten us all.

Bemused MP :p

(the post which prompted the response below has been removed for some reason , but my response below is still relevant)

BoxcarWhilomena / everyone .

I have a copy of a letter from BALPA . which states "disregard the latter part of vacancies ref who's eligible: bid for what YOU want........" . In other words the table of how many vacancies are available on each fleet should be ignored when bidding .

Regardless of how many vacancies are available on each fleet , you are guaranteed a position on one of them , unless there are'nt enough vacancies for everyone , then obviously redundancies are going to be required , which will start at the bottom of the company seniority list and work upwards .

Trying to outguess the company regarding the numbers required on each fleet is to some extent futile . What we ideally need to know is the total pilot numbers required , plus how many are going to baby , then knowing what we've got now we could deduce who might go where and if any redundancies will occur . Trying to work this out is also futile . We don't have enough info . The company won't even know the final picture until all bids are counted . So guessing is pointless , is'nt it ?