Point taken
 

AnthonyCarn:
You are absoloutely correct;I should RTFQ.
Apologies.My hope is that the 'Last in first out' principle will be adhered to.
BoxcarWilhomena:
You can probably guess that I didn't have the bid form in front of me when I posted;The number I had in mind was indeed 80;but consisting of Airbus & Fokker vacancies.Sorry to be misleading.Of course this No. should really be 97 with the Boeing -> Fokker vacancies included.

It is difficult not to 'second guess' in the present climate- I was merely giving my own (partially correct) interpretation of the future fleet movements (formerly known as the 'BIG PICTURE'!)

I don't think for one minute that the final picture will look as simple as the bid form suggests-it is,apparently only the 'IDEAL' situation as far as the company is concerned,ie:minimal training and minimal redundancies;=minimal cost. My only hope is that they don't try to water down the LIFO principle on the basis of cost.-They wouldn't do that------would they?!?
Regards,
Skip.rat

I'm afraid that I have to totally agree with J & J, and as I suggested to MP about a week ago, this is not the place to air the bmi dirty washing.

Let BALPA earn the 1% that we contribute and support the CC. If you're not a BALPA member then I would suggest joining as it may get a bit chilly on the outside.

If you want to complain about the issue, and I wholeheartedly agree that it's a total mess, then go to the BM_Balpa or BM_AllPilots sites and air your views there.

Pete, can I suggest that you get on with your morning fry-up!!!

Packsonflite

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

The trouble is Moley that there is some total dross being put out on this drivel board at the moment. Some of it is coming from you (sorry most of it is coming from you). It is quite incredible that professional pilots are arguing the toss using this particular medium. Are the pilots in bmi such a sad bunch ? I hope not. Everyone on this thread must realise that the only person who can/should be able to answer your questions is [email protected]. Don't blame this mess on anyone else. It is ENTIRELEY up to him and the current CEO.

Packson, J & J,

Just as you are entitled to your opinions, so are we. The big and obvious difference between this forum and the Yahoogroups is that this one is anonymous. I would suggest that folk in fear of their livelihood ( a feeling I know only too well ) are entitled to share their thoughts and experiences without spiteful carping. Oh, and if bmi has any 'dirty washing', it's the management who provided the dirt through selfishness, incompetence and an arrogant disregard for human beings.

Transmission ends.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

"Gentlemen" please! Degenerated into fisticuffs as usual!Easy to see why people end up needing nose jobs..:rolleyes:
Apart from these occasional skirmishes this has been really useful stuff. Pity only 12 days left to bid closure,am learning all the time. thanks everyone:D

Is it safe to assume (which you shouldn't in this case) that a Fokker pilot based at EMA would most definitely want to transfer to the BMIBABY 733 at EMA? Besides the benefit of maintaining your rent or mortgage, wouldn't you also be paid more on the 733 - even at BMIBABY? So, how many Fokker pilots would want to transfer to expensive London Heathrow?

What percentage of EMA-based Fokker pilots are likely to bid/tranfer to BMIBABY 733s? Or are most not senior enough to hold the positions?

Good luck to all involved! Personally, give me a A320 seat out of Heathrow and I'd be happy!!!!!!


Cheers

Trouble is not same pension at Baby so lose out big time there.Therell be one helluva kickback if they start messing with the pension to make them the same. Baby not proved it is making any profit,might go bust.If they want they can rebase you anywhere at Baby and you wont see a cent in help.
Those at EMA might risk all this for staying living there,but thats big time short sighted.But at LHR youd be risking a lot to move, and that applies mega for Cardiff

Harrison Birtwhistle

This is exactly the point I was trying to make and cannot be said often enough.

MP;)

Harrison and MaxPete

With respect, gents, that is why I shell out my 1% to BALPA

They should (and are doing I am assured [hope!:eek:] ) be getting the best legal advice for their members.

Not a member? Then join, or be left in the dark.

My take at the moment is to print a disclaimer on th back of the bid form, pointing out that it has been filled in under pressure of time, without the information required to do it, and that any bid is neither fully voluntary, nor binding.

Good idea Arkroyal.
Like any legal document,what you don't like you can change to suit and then youre covered.My solicitor did it big time when I bought my last house,whole pages crossed out or scribbled on!:eek:

Indeed acbus,

Or you can sign agreements, and simply ignore them when it suits. Plays both ways you know.

I take it you are returning all the pay rises and other benefits that BALPA members have won for you then, Harrison. And don't forget that the AFS, which you so rightly point out, is still in force, wouldn't be if BALPA hadn't negotiated it for you in the first place.

From the thread it appears that the good work that BALPA has done in the past and continue to do is not a issue.

The issue is:- What are BALPA doing about this particular problem.

But then, according to some folk, I'm a grumpy old f**t with a chip on both shoulders who is unable to grasp the realities of life.

To those folk I suggest you come and enjoy retirement. It's the best thing since sliced bread!!

MP

P.S. Shame about my cholesterol level. I think that's how you spell it.

:p

Well that's it then :(

JR has gone into print and set out the rules.

As expected SENIORITY rules !!

This will undoubtedly result in yet more redundancies, I fail to see how it can be avoided, despite what RH says.

It would now seem, rightly or wrongly, that a junior Airbus RHS slot will go to a more senior 737 F/O. (obviously your opinion will depend on which end of the S/L you are).

The question still outstanding is this. Can that Airbus F/O be assigned a 'baby' position, or must he first be made redundant and then OFFERED a new job at EMA or CWL.
In other words is 'baby' weaned yet or still suckling at 'Mother Midlands' AOC ?

Fuji-san

Just my opinion , but it may help........

I don't see anything new in the JR letter , but maybe I'm being thick as usual . Company seniority always has been the dominant factor in these situations , as per my previous posts ( have you looked through this thread from the beginning ? ) .

A previous post by me ( page 1 ) lists all the "natural" and voluntary retirements/voluntary redundancies that I've worked out are maybe coming up , and these could avoid any/many enforced redundancies . In addition , my GUESS is that if there are any enforced redundancies , then they are going to have to offer you baby due to lack of demand . Don't see much of a loss if you try to hang onto your Airbus job for now and see what happens , but you obviously need to decide for yourself -- I'm just supplying my opinion in case it helps . ( I've learnt a lot since this thread started , but it still boils down to our own decision in the end ) . The big benefit of PPRUNE is that we can pool opinion , so what does everyone else think ?

A letter from BALPA says ( I sincerely hope they don't mind me quoting them -- its in a good cause ) "If you're junior and redundancies are back on the cards then by not bidding for bmibaby at this stage won't necessarily preclude eligibility for it at a later stage . " You'll have to ask BALPA what exactly they mean , just to be sure . If you're not in BALPA then I can only give my opinion again-- JOIN , NOW , if only for the next few months -- it won't hurt much and it could be vital to you .

The promising thing , I think , is that RH has stated that he wants to avoid compulsory redundancies , and that he will try to mitigate the effects of the changes , and I for one believe that sentiment to be true .

Hope you're still awake to have read this far --- I've rambled on a bit -- sorry !

Yes, well I have actually, and it would seem that an awful lot of posters pulled out of the debate. As you say, for some reason or other.
You have ended up discussing the topic with yourself.

Now you don't think someone was having a larff do you ? :D :D

karaoke

I'm glad to see that you are contributing to PPRUNE so soon after registering as a new member , and all the way from India too ! Technology truly is shrinking the world in which we live !

The " awful lot " of posters to whom you refer , who's posts were removed some time after their initial posting , were precisely TWO in number . I am , in retrospect , grateful to both of them , but one in particular , for stimulating the initial growth of this thread .

To the people who generated the remaining 61 posts and 2582 viewings of this thread I say thank you all , and hope that we have helped each other to better understand an extremely complex situation to the benefit of anyone who found it confusing at first .

If anyone , or even everyone , has been " having a larf " as you put it , then I can only say that my own contribution has been carefully thought out and honestly , and I hope politely , stated , and that's all that matters to me !

I've not seeen the JR letter but was interested to know if he was talking about company seniority or group seniority 'cos this could be a crucial issue for those near the bottom of the list.

After all, they are the cheapest to make redundant.

MP:confused:

Maximum Pete

Please dont take this the wrong way,cos I do have a question which I dont know the answer to and you might, or anyone out there.
If the bottom of the seniority is the cheapest to make redundant,and I agree that makes sense,then why did they offer payouts to the top of the seniority last year for them to volunteer to go.
Is there a tax benefit,or are they just getting rid of high earners,or cutting the pension bill or even because its the decent thing.
Whats the answer.Beats me.

The precedent was set at the last round of redundancies earlier this year. The last 7 F/O's on the 'List' are ex regional, and have group joining dates in 1998. They were not made redundant last time, and will not this time either. What you think of that decision will obviously depend on where you personally reside on the 'List'. My opinion is irrelevant !
I personally believe 'The Company' would rather get rid of some of the top earners to reduce the average wage bill. Some of the 55 NRD's working out their last 5 years are also set to take huge lump sums from the pension scheme, as they are rightly entitled to do. This will be reflected in next years FRS 17, someone will have to top it back up again !!
Now who do think that might be ? We already pay 10%, the maximum is 15%, not too far to go with the imagination is it ?

Anthony, Have you made up your mind yet ? Time runneth out :confused:

acbus 1

I'm the first to admit that I don't know enought about the various tax incentives, redundancy packages on offer etc etc.

Speaking from personal experience getting information regarding the amounts that you can expect to receive is like pulling teeth.

MP ;)

Fuji-san,

A 1. The company will have to make up any shortfall.

A 2. AON are the people who will give you information about your pension and are polite and helpful in my experience.
You may find that the following contact address is useful:- [email protected] although they can be a bit long-winded at times.

ducksoup

I agree with you about AON. They could not have been more helpful, especially Christine Anderson.

Unfortunately the company were very slow in supplying them with the necessary info.

MP;)

Oh dear Pete, there you go again. This time using the well-known 'somebody told somebody me, therefore it must be true' routine.
Detail I know, but HOW do you know that it was 'the Company' at fault? Was it because someone at AON told you? Well, if that was the case, you just MAY have been told a little porky! AON can be inefficient too and are not always afraid of blaming somebody else.
Still, with your current anti-bmi mindset, it can surprise nobody that your blinkers are well and truly nailed on.
Enjoy your retirement when you eventually decide to take it.

I guess the letter of apology from the company over the delay is fairly hard evidence.

MP;)

Pete
Yes, that will do - sorry I ever doubted you.
However, and I apologise for getting off-topic and will not follow this up, you have been with BMA and its sucessors for many years. You have been part of the company which you helped to help you to your present state of comfort and independence. From the interminably long thread whereby you managed to convey to one and all the injustice you suffered, you have the sympathy of fellow proffesionals, which I am sure you deserve. It also goes without saying that you have helped many pilots with their careers.
But, there are plenty out there who have their careers and lives locked into bmi and, for sure, many of them, like me, are just teed off with your present attitude. Remember, any company is its people and short term injustices and crap management are just that; short term. They will not last.
Please, Pete, stop demeaning yourself and your old colleagues who have their colours nailed to the company mast. These folk hope and expect the company to manage themselves out of this currently difficult period, just as it has during difficult trading times in the past. Their pensions, like yours were never affected and salaries were always paid unlike some other companies we can all remember.
Your continued sniping is unhelpful and is particularly galling in that it will not change your own position one jot, so kindly stop it!
Regards from your old mate,
ducksoup.

Just two days left to get that form in guys & gals, remember Linda's not there at weekends :D

Any body out there still dithering ?

See you in sunny Cardiff :cool:

Suppose we can call the rest of this thread "BMI BID FORMS -- THE AFTERMATH" !

Hope everyone has seen the latest BALPA newsletter , out in the last few days . I was very impressed . Lots of extremely useful stuff in there -- a MUST READ document . Especially relevant to this thread is the section regarding your rights when the fleet/base offers are made to each of us e.g. you don't HAVE to accept an offer , even if you bid for it ( as I understand it ) .

Regarding the Baby option , all those who tell me that they have bid for it under duress , by virtue of being near the bottom of the seniority list and being under threat of redundancy , will find the constructive dismissal information etc. very relevant .

Amazes me how many colleagues ( OK , a few then ) are'nt keeping up with developments , or have got the wrong end of the stick ( "rumour machine" victims , probably ) , so maybe this thread will catch their attention .

What's that ? -- No , I'm not on the CC . I just hope they don't mind me contributing my ideas .

At the risk of incurring the wrath of ducksoup et al:-

Good luck with your conversion courses and moves.

Stay in touch

MP;)

So the bid list is out then.

Cardiff : 1st choice = 5

2nd choice = 4

3rd choice = 2

Not too many are there ?

:D

p.s. wouldn't it be nice to know what 'da management' bid for. :o

The bmi forum is now working , and we all seem to be gravitating there .

Click on "user cp" top right of this screen .

But see Reporting Points " BMI Forum " if you have problems and there may be more info there ( but only maybe ) .