8 days a month for 300K/? Who/where on Earth is that?

That money and easy roster would be fairly typical at a US major airline. Work a bit harder and earn even more.

European pay is way behind unfortunately.

Good post Flylaw and I agree with most of it, except the bit about going into business, by which I include any type of self employment. Sure, you're pretty unlikely to end up as a multi millionaire, but I know plenty of folk who earn a very decent living answering to no-one except themselves, paying little tax and mainly having their weekends off. It's not for everyone, but then neither is aviation, but I certainly put it out there to be considered.

The return key is your friend.

I'll give you that. I literally can't be arsed to even start to read that 10,000 chars of TEXT.

Although I will nominate this for the soon to be annual 'Worlds Longest Paragraph Awards 2020' (to be held digitally).

Great post, Flylaw.

I wonder if you sometimes miss the intellectual challenge?

After all, this job is 99% routine, and with a few years of experience even the 1% become a rather modest excitement...

And what do you talk about in cruise? Yes, colleagues in aviation don't steal your job, but don't you find this all a bit boring compared to your previous life?

Serious question.

Good post flylaw. Sorry that some are so rude about a subject that is of relevance to many at the moment. The first sentence summarises the post nicely and those who are disinterested can move on.

Absolutely true. Someone just needed to put it in plain text. It's downright delusional to think that anyone taking an early retirement does so for the sake of some random youngster keeping their job. Most of the time, those pulling out before they get on the wrong side of 65 have some substantial personal reasons to do so. Deteriorating health is often one of them, followed by family circumstances and overall tiredness. Even under today's circumstances, for most who take any VR deal that's a decision which has been almost made during the better days and COVID-19 was that last straw which broke the camel's back. Of course, a good severance package can further stimulate such a decision, but, overall, don't expect anyone to set themselves on fire to keep you warm. Not blaming anyone for it, that's just how life works. Survival of the fittest also has its place outside biology.

As for some of the previous comments, implying that pilots are a simplistic and boring lot to spend time with, they just beg the question why those who consider themselves more intelligent and interesting to talk to than the average pilot still spend their downtime on pilot forums.

Very interesting words, flylaw, thanks

It will be the exception from now on. It’s famine or feast in the US.

I’d imagine Ts & Cs will suffer worse than in the EU until the good times return. Post 9/11 - widebody skippers in the US on c.$120k and I remember exchange rates of $2 to the £1..... it all averages out over the course of a 30 year career.

"Yes, colleagues in aviation don't steal your job".
Are you sure about that?

Your honor my client would like to strike that from the record.

On a serious note when hiring resumes or airlines start to recall pilots, many will find that the terms and conditions will be greatly reduced and those willing and in a position to fly for next to nothing or indeed willing to pay to fly will have cockpits to go to.

Sadly, but you're right. Shame on those pilots willing to pay to fly, or accept greatly reduced conditions. When will they learn?
Pilots are their own worst enemies

It might be my own wishful thinking, but wouldn't now be a good opportunity to campaign against P2F, using the number of unemployed pilots as an argument for the law makers? Actually, P2F is no good for the already strained state budgets. Instead of having employed professionals earning a salary, paying taxes and spending on goods and services, P2F effectively leads to those doing it having no income, just like those who are unemployed.

How about we campaign for reciprocity. I would like to get a fast track legal qualification, skip all that junior experience building nonsense and buy myself a set of silks and a silly wig, pay for a seat in chambers and a QC title. All the other QC's can just show me what to do until I get the hang of it. Obviously I'm just being silly here and I know P2F has been flogged to death. We will however be facing experienced pilots being expected to essentially pay to get their jobs back soon. Oh well, at least I saw a few good years. Good luck to all.... We are going to need it.

Agree with the P2F thing. But if in a few months time my current employer was to say that to keep my job in the left seat of an airliner I would have to accept a £60k salary I would almost certainly say yes, and if I didn’t plenty of people would. At the moment the alternative is to earn £10 per hour delivering parcels, and I know which option would pay the mortgage. The time to try to improve terms and conditions is when you have a position to bargain from.

Probably one of the most sensible comments on PPRuNe for a while...

Staying in work right now is more important than anything else. And keeping as many pilots also in work goes along with that. Then there should be no need for "Working Life After Flying".

However, for those who do need to think about that, do not 'aim too high' to start with, get something and build from there. Work of some sort on you C.V. looks a lot more impressive than "time spent at home thinking about something".

Utter tosh. If we all accept a 50% pay cut all we will achieve is destroying this profession. I for one much rather stay at home for two years if required and return to a fair paying job than to keep my job but work for half the pay the rest of my career. Is simple maths if you look a career earnings. How many pilots are employed is determined by how any aircraft airlines want to operate NOT by how much we are willing to cut our pay. Even if you accept 60K MOL will want 30K. If you accept 30 K he will be after 15 and so on. Willie Walsh, Alex Cruz, MOL and the rest are after the absolute minimum they can get away with. If they can get you to pay to work even better. Don't fall into the trap.

I have done pilot selection in the past. I judged candidates on their technical knowledge, their performance in the sim, the psychometric testing, their hours on type and on seat and on wether I could sit next to them for a 12 hour stint without going mad. I did not care wether they did a paper round when they where 16 or wether they took a career break at 40. I specially did not care if they agreed to take a 50% pay cut to stay in their job.

I completely agree with you. I would suggest those pilots willing to work for a lot less pay to take a look at Continental Airlines in the early 1980's when ALPA lost a strike
because some of their pilots accepted a sharp reduction in pay and crossed the picket line along with new hires. At the end who suffer are the pilots and the profession.

I’m pleased to see your experience in airline recruitment Calypso, that’s an experience I don’t have.

However, what I do have is a 36 year career in aviation during which time I have worked for eight airlines and undertaken six type ratings. I’ve never put any money up front into any sort of “cadetship”, I’ve never worked just for flight pay in order to get a type rating, but it did take ten years of hard aviation graft and 5000 hours in GA before I got a job in an airline. To my mind it’s not people who might be prepared to take a pay cut to keep their jobs in the face of an unprecedented global pandemic who are destroying this profession. It was destroyed when companies like Astreus, Ryanair, EasyJet and all the others started to schemes where holders of fATPLs could get a type rating and then fly for 500 hours effectively for free in the hope of getting a permanent job. But even then those schemes wouldn’t have destroyed the profession and started a race to the bottom unless those fATPL holders hadn’t jumped on the band wagon to avoid working their way up through instructing, single crew air taxi, regional turboprops etc on the way to a shiny jet.

And you’re right, the maths about career earnings is simple. Having had to survive for some of those years on savings due to airline failures I, unlike you, couldn’t afford to sit at home waiting for the good times to come back. And if I did in two years time I would be looking for a job having no current type rating, not having flown for two years, having only three years to retirement and competing with thousands of out of work pilots from BA, Virgin, Norwegian, Thomas Cook, Flybe, Emirates and possibly every other airline on the planet.

So however much you want to pontificate I will do what I need to do to keep a job and put the money in the bank that my family needs, and I’m sure I won’t be alone in that. And if that means accepting a pay cut for a while then I’ll do it. And if that means that someone with ten or twenty or thirty years of earning potential ahead of them are upset then so be it, why should I sacrifice what is left of my career to help you with yours.