EK versus BA
 

Hi Guys,

holding an offer for both on the 777, interested to hear opinions on which would be the better choice?

Regards

I think it depends wether you're going to commute from mainland or not. If you commute from mainland, you will lose some days/hours off.

IF you have to ask you did not do your homework. Of course on the "plus" side with EK is that fantastic exotic city(that you get tired of in 1 week), nice temperatures all over the year(if you like it HOT), even better employment laws in the middle east. Hard decission. Really.

IF you find sarcasm, you may keep it.

If just money is what counts - go for gods sake to China. EK is "in between" and for this reason not really worth anymore a shot.

In a nutshell - money - Asia.

Employment laws, long term plans, retirement security(as far as possible on this world) - Europe, your case UK(that history still needs to proof that Brexit was such a wise idea, but somehow they will still survive. They always did. For sure it will not get better, even that some populists trying to sell that to the masses).

Good luck with your decission.

EK for sure. Take the money and an upgrade and do your 5 years. Be way ahead of where you would have been in BA, plus have international 777 PIC time within 5 years as well as a lot more money.

Then leave EK and use that experience to join a European operator and get the lifestyle, labour law protection, QOL and so forth. BA is 20 years to command plus a lot less money and things are going downhill there fast...

fair point about BA pay scale sliding across with time served... But the figure you quote is from the 24 pay point scale which closed to new joiners in 2012. The new figures for command at 21 years are £137k LH (£121k SH).

Of course it will be useful. You dont have to join a LoCo but they will still respect your time and experience. What do you mean..,Thats if you can afford to come back'?

You would have saved a ton more money so of course you can come back. You would take a pay cut but if you had joined BA you would have thrown away hundreds of thousands over 5 years simply by joining them, not upgrading and paying lots of taxes

You could join a legacy or LoCo in Europe either as a DEC or at the very least an SFO with quick upgrade and still earn decent money plus have the benefits of a European lifestyle.

To say join BA for the long term stability is simply plain stupid!! Junior pilots have no stability, terrible rosters, fatigued all the time, no weekends off, not seeing the wife and kids and all for the pleasure of paying taxes and earning far less money...

Enjoy the 'LONG TERM STABILITY'

Interesting discussion. I'll add a few points.

When you guys compare work in the ME, with for example EK vs loco / legacy in Europe, don't forget that Dubai has gotten seriously expensive over the past 10 years while salaries have been more or less frozen. Subsidized education? Well, in many cases the school allowance often doesn't cover 100% of the fees. In Europe education is "free" (paid for by your tax) and in most countries education is still offered at a pretty good standard, obviously varying with country and where you decide to live. Buying / owning property in Dubai (and ME in general) can be extremely dodgy and loads of expats have lost considerable amounts of money in Dubai. No need to pay ridiculously high utility bills in most of Europe to cover for aircon when its 40+ degrees outside. Planning on renting instead? Expect rent to go up faster than your pay is and with no reason for landlord to explain or justify anything. Have you ever gone food shopping in Dubai? Ordered a beer or 5? It's crazy expensive. I could go on and on.

My point is, taking home €8500-€10.000 (net) per month working for a loco in Europe is probably not a bad thing.

On a different note, I was surprised to see how low the basic pay is in BA for LH/SH basic pay after 20+ years, I thought it would be at least close to 200k on LH and 160k or so on SH.

CP

Being a former QR(not EK but more or less the same crap) skipper. Agree on everything you wrote. You did not mention that many EK skippers went to european LOW COST(!) just to be back home and enjoy real life. The "Paycut" is a thing everyone has to decide for himself, I easily skipped that money for a chance to be back in much more safe and stable Europe, giving my family a more "real" life then that one of the typical Middle Eastern Expat. All a choice in life.

I never wanted "to turn back time" and felt sorry for leaving the middle east. God no. Most likely the best decission I ever made in my work life leaving the ME.

Again - I wrote that already above - nowadays choices are, IMHO(of course), much easier then, let's say 15-20 years ago. It was still a good thing to go to the ME at that time(and even then I did not like it and left), or the SWIRE group for instance. Now all of them are of no interest for any experienced (european) pilot except you seek adventure of course, that is a different thing. But career wise, money wise, no way.

The new gold mine is China(that I would personally never touch), safe and good jobs are in the US(for their citizens, would never go over there as well with all their "legacy" bs(no offence)) and Europe(for us Europeans). Really simple nowadays I think.

ME might be still a good choice for pilots from the indian subcontinent, asia, africa(as it always was). Much money to make for them compared to their home countries with similar "benefits" on retirement and health care. Always a point of view what is good and what not.

Sorry, but you got it wrong then.

WHY? There is not to much difference between China and the ME. Have been flying in both environments. I do not think one is better/worse than the other.

IF you plan to join BA, EZY do it NOW. They run on seniority. I fly for an other Euro Loco(which finally got an CLA and seniority slowly kicks in and it will be the same as EZY in a few years, e.g. some bases already full which was never an issue before the CLA) and thought about EZY(had the interview invitation already) - BUT - the base I want(LIPZ) is full. I am to old to wait somewhere else(and I have family, kids,....) till finally my base is availabe. Do that as long as you are young enough, get your seniority, choose your base.

If you waste 5+ years with EK it will not be easier to join said outfits. And maybe by that time you might have family as well which would make it very hard "tramping" from base to base till you finally got the one you desire. Same with command upgrade of course. Not a factor in EZY but in BA.....

Think well....

China is a goldmine if you stay and dig. But the commuting contracts are interesting more IMHO. 3 wks / 3 wks (no other HOL) and take home 13000 EUR (15k US) after taxes and expenses. Depends on one's family background and situation, that could be a choice like no other.

To relocate and live-in, the likes of Visatara in India seem to be better. For the last 10 years, part-time at EZY seems to be the best - in hope for a neigh base for the final five.

At the beginning of a career, the choices are far more muddied. Pick one where they will train you well enough to be competitive on the open market.

Is the ME a democracy where you can freely express your opinions without fear of reprisal? Does this matter to you?

The UK is a democracy.
One aspect, namely Brexit is testing it in a way that would not be possible in many other countries.
The only country with a democratic model in the ME is Israel.
If living in a community that values democracy means something to you, don't work in the ME or China.
If money is the driver, then do.

If it comes towards bases it is. And that makes it not very interesting for me. No desire to spend my time in Portugal, Berlin or some Spanish Island(nice spots for a youngster, but if you want to be close to your family, not). So better be "in" as soon as possible.

Quality of life vs money (and the money isn't what it used to be that's for sure)......

With BA long haul there is the possibility of overtime pay.

If you live reasonably close to LHR and are willing to go any where any time you can earn an extra 10-20%

Without wishing to turn this into a pi**ing contest. If it’s money you are after, there is money to be made in BA. Many pilots live abroad and pay local taxes, which depending where you live in Europe can be minimal. It won’t compare with China or parts of the ME, but you have the benefit of more employment protection.
The corporate culture, while we all complain isn’t what it was 20 years ago (where is?), is probably a lot better than the ME and China too. Flying with people of a similar culture and outlook is also worth more than money. I very very rarely return from a trip not having enjoyed the experience. I appreciate it’s easier when you’re the Captain though. Perhaps some junior F/O’s could comment?

If you have a family you will get a company house, the houses are not really in Dubai, they are quite far from the centre in an estate that looks like a middle eastern communist estate. Hundreds of houses exactly the same with little or no aesthetic appeal. Good drone footage here:

Good, if sick making, drone footage - of the wrong estate!

The real Meydan Heights Emirates Accommodation for Captains is much nicer - the villas are detached and huge - and the estate is landscaped and has pools and recreational facilities. And of course, accommodation and utilities costs are free

If you save £9/month you should have at least £1100. Not sure if that is enough to retire on, but it does sound achievable.....


To get a million in 10 years with 5% interest you need to save 6.7K/month.

What about FO's and how long is upgrade for FO's in EK?

Interesting that this is something up for debate now, less than 10 years ago it wouldn't have been. Peope would have joined BA on a longhaul fleet as a no brainer. Then they had PP24, Bidline and less scrutiny relating to commuting. Less attractive option now apparently. Pretty sad state of affairs

Just out of curiosity, about buying property in Dubai... of course it sounds interesting to get a "free house from the airline"
But how easy is to sell it when you decide is time to go home? And also putting 100k from your own money in such a unstable market... sounds discouraging. I'm not sure if I would take this allowance instead of the company accomodation. Not to mention, if you get in trouble in Dubai or EK, you will end up with a huge debt.