Airline gender pay gap
 

UK companies with 250 or more employees must publish their gender pay gap data by April 2018. Should be interesting.

Hardly. Pilots, the majority of which are male, get paid more than cabin crew, the majority of which are female. Shocker.

I have been in the industry for thirty years and have never seen a gender pay gap. If you can do the job you get paid the same as your peers.

These are the times we are living in;

"EasyJet has set itself a target that a fifth of all new pilots recruited should be female by 2020"

Ridiculous

Given the number of female Candidates on the market, they will then leave themselves open to charges of positive discrimination by the male workforce ? ? WTF ? ?.


AFAIK, in every company I have worked in, pilots & CC were of course paid exactly the same regardless of gender . . . a non-starter in aviation methinks. Move along there, nothing to see.

A girl from my ATO received job offers from various operators in Europe and secured a job with a UK charter operator... And she doesn't know the difference between N1 and N2. Not joking.
Same story for another one with various multiple ATPL fails.

In engineering too, I believe the gender pay gap does not exist.
We have very detailed statistics for Airbus group (several thousands of employees) and when comparing with equal experience and comparable job, the pay gap is less than 3% and can occur in both directions.

Surely, the problem doesn't lie with the employers, the problem lies with society influencing women towards lower paid jobs and influencing men in thinking the larger salary the better.

I'm not a big fan of positive discrimination. I do think however it could mean those who initially never thought they could make a go of it in the industry are encouraged to enter it. It makes aviation less of an old boy's club in terms of "dad did it so I will too", and it brings fresh blood and ideas into the industry. It would be great to see "pilot" as a more popular career choice for young girls, akin to how it is for boys. You only have to look at some of the Virgin ads to see how girls could be influenced by society.

Obviously the anecdotal reports of sub par candidates getting offers is worrying... That will come back to bite airlines on the bum. However, if it means more girls see the prospect of being a pilot as achievable and aspire to go into the industry it would create more competition and possibility raise standards...

Not really. Just like men, I doubt you'll run into many females who don't think a larger salary is better.


Facts are, more women will avoid the physical,technical type jobs in all sorts of weather in extreme environments. There are totally competent women in those fields and they have my respect like any other of any race, gender or cultural background.


Any attempt to pay a female less to do my job will be met by an immediate work stoppage until the money is in their bank account.

Female Pilots are paid the same as male.... Male cabin crew are paid the same as Female.

Now..... More Men than Women seem to want jobs on say the north sea oil rigs paying decent $$$ where as more Women than men seem to want to work in a beauty salon where the job pays less.......... What gender pay gap?? Its down to the job you do as far as I can see. All jobs are open to both Genders but a vast majority of jobs only appeal to one gender.

Now I have heard women moan that they fell intimidated applying for a male dominated role..... Well sorry you cant blame Men for genetic makeup.

The gender pay gap is really code for the next assault on society. There is a small gap, nothing of the magnitude made out by extremities in society. Most of it according to a number of empirical studies is a result of choice.

As pilots say, male pilots don't get paid more than females.


This video is five minutes, but explains the median wage argument and its distortion which is conveniently ignored.


:ok:

I have never worked in a company where females were paid less for the same role and same years of service/experience levels.

If anything women are treated better than men in aviation because it looks good to have them on board. All things being equal, in the western world, they are far more likely to get a flying position than men for this reason.

Women just tend not to choose this profession very often. Easyjet would do well to say that they are looking to hire a representative amount of female pilots after all checks and standards have been met accordingly. To set an “arbitrary” target figure reeks of favoritism. If only 5% of pilots are women, wouldn’t females be way overrepresented if one company consists of 20% women?

I also doubt women would like to be cherry picked for positions because of what is between their legs compared to the standard of job they deliver. As any good pilot and decent human being would.

Few could deny that there is strong female positive discrimination in pilot hiring in Europe - and it IS legal, surprisingly. However, is it wise, for safety critical roles?

the gap is a result of personnal/family choices.

There is no such things as female payscale, it's illegal of course.
I tried to found out how they came with this numbers, because I knew that the hourly rate was the same for men and women, in any jobs.
And I found out that it was a totally dishonest social study, all of them. It's just politics.
The result of the Era we are in, minority sacralisation.

Here is how it is calculated: (exemple from a good friend of mine)
He's a doctor. Family doctor. He work long days and make 10000€/month.
His wife is a teacher. She makes so little money that they decided she will work half time only, then she can take care of the kids.
She makes less than 1000€ a month.

=>Women make ten times less than men

It's real, that's how they do the calculation. Check by yourself.

We might find out one day.

I know it gives the impression I am a terrible male chauvinist. I am not really, but I am experiencing this positive discrimination in first person. I would have nothing to say if those two female individuals knew something about turbofan engines or swept wings, but they do not and had it quite easy to get invitation to assessments and subsequent job offers.

Did you mean "misogynist " perchance ? having said that, any criticism of the female race may end up with you feeling like a bit of a masochist I agree ;)

i fly corporate bizjet, politicens, ceo, etc...
One funny thing about this gender equity is that those VIPs, who promote equal opportunities in their big companies, usually don't want female pilots to fly their families !

I exactly meant that, sorry! lol I'll edit that now.

The gender pay gap is a :mad: myth. I have never worked in a company that has two different pay scales depending on your genitalia. I have never heard any female colleagues or friends complain or even talk about the gender pay gap, so where is all this noise coming from?

Of course there is positive discrimination towards women pilots in Europe. You have to be blind not to see that.

Some clarity of thought about misguided objectives to bludgeon flat headline gender percentages, for every field of work, regardless of societal and hardwired human propensities.
(originally posted in the ME forum)

Ah well, nothing a bit of positive discrimination can't fix.

Good luck to all you ladies applying, I'm sure you'll feel very proud competing on equal terms.

https://www.pilotcareernews.com/thom...det-programme/

Also https://careers.easyjet.com/pilots/f...opportunities/
"Requirements of the role" - No penis

I was under the impression that gender discrimination is illegal in Europe, or that doesn't apply if the beneficiaries of such practices have a v****a between their legs?

In order to 'equalise' pay, are there any sponsorships aimed at recruiting more men as cabin crew? ... No, I thought not.

Surely there should be valid equality legal challenges against men being excluded from these airline sponsorships solely on the basis of gender?

I wonder what the reaction would be if it says “Male Pilots only”. There would be uproar, surely this cannot be legal?

Hmm. Positive discrimination is encouraged in the UK to address historical or cultural imbalance. The issue with women as pilots is far more to do with the cost of training and the bank of mummy and daddy not being opened so readily for Prudence. Pay and opportunities on applying and throughout their career in aviation, in the UK at least, are the same. Indeed, opportunities maybe in favour of women. Gender pay gaps are measured against jobs of similar importance/difficulty and not across a corporate structure. BA or Easy are not required to measure a gender pay gap between pilots and cabin crew but independently. So there is no gender pay gap so these companies do not need to worry.
What is likely to be of more interest after we get over the current bubble of misogynist hunting is the number of black pilots against the population average.

I would say ageism is a bigger problem than sexism in the aviation industry. It's well known that airlines favour the younger candidates for low hour positions. A newly qualified pilot the wrong side of 40 struggles much more to get a foot in the door. I therefore look forward to the launch of a sponsorship scheme for older pilots in order to redress the balance and to promote age equality.....but I won't hold my breath.

I couldn't care what 'group' any pilot belongs to, can they fly??!! The rest is just waffle. Do the same percentage of these 'other groups' really want to be pilots? That is a far, far more fundamental matter than trying to tinker around with blatantly discriminatory 'engineering' of the system.

Whilst I have a natural dislike of positive discrimination I would ask why you would think that black children would not dream of being an airline pilot ? And if they do, what stops them from fulfilling their dream ? Then, when you know the answers to these questions you have to decide whether it is right or wrong to tinker with the system.

No mention of “jobs of similar importance”. Nor is there on gov.uk.

I'll just leave this here ...

FTEJerez & Thomas Cook Airlines announce new Airline Cadet programme and Scholarship for Female Pilots ? FTEJerez | News

I am sure lots of black children dream to be an airline pilot. I think the show stopper for most of them is the big cost of getting the qualification required for the job.

The same cost applies to everyone else, no matter what skin colour, religion, gender etc.... they are.

Why should there be schemes that benefit only certain skin colour or gender when everyone in Europe has the same access to gain the qualification if they can pay for it?

I agree with the gist of everything above, but look at the airline gender pay gap (mainly male pilots vs. mainly female cabin crew) in light of the Tesco case.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...n-sight-years/

Equality of opportunity seems right and just, but it seems equality of outcome is the new goal.

Injust? Crazy? World gone mad?

FlipFlapFlop, I had a very interesting chat with someone who grew up on a council housing estate due to his parents having fallen on hard times. He had exactly the same money, etc., in the family as all the surrounding families. However he had something that he clearly saw that the other kids lacked: ambition. His parents had the same 'financial' wealth as the surrounding parents but they encouraged curiosity and ambition, something that was lacking in the surrounding parents. He was telling me this in connection with the push at the time to get an equal percentage of children from 'deprived' backgrounds to university as those from 'advantaged' backgrounds. And he said it simply wasn't going to happen because those kids just didn't have the ambition. (He doesn't have any academic qualifications himself, but holds a high position as an airline pilot.) So don't look at any group and see the problems there, look at the curiosity and ambition promoted by the parents; that is worth more than money. (And by the way, in our family the women have higher academic qualifications than the men!) And then look at the kids themselves: I would say that in many cases, choosing not to become an airline pilot probably shows a level of intelligent perception. Forced social engineering with 'positive discrimination' (an oxymoron if ever there was one!) is bad. Encouragement and open ambition is good.

I would like to see men initiate a legal challenge against gender discrimination in the sponsorship mentioned above.

Yes!!! :ok:

The Equality Act 2010 gives women (and men) a right to equal pay for equal work.

The roles of flight crew and cabin crew are completely different. They are not compared to each other and are not lumped together to calculate a gender pay gap. The Act requires all companies over 250 employees to publish data. In the case of airlines they will be required to show if there is a gap for pilots and cabin crew separately from each other. It is not a single figure per employer.


I was not supporting positive discrimination. I thought I had made that clear. But there is something wrong when huge parts of the population are debarred from a career because of the cost of entry.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gender-p...r-calculations

Not according to government guidelines on calculating the gap. No mention whatsoever of differing jobs.

I stand corrected. Workforce Gender Pay Gap calculation. Different from equal pay. What a piece of meaningless bureaucratic bollox. Apologies.

I think the rot set in with positive discrimination when Jessica Starmer decided the rules around junior pilot proficiency didn't apply to her just because she was a woman.:mad:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...workandcareers

Positive discrimination vs Positive action
 

Positive discrimination is illegal in the EU, positive action is not. The problem companies appear to have is telling the difference. So encouraging certain under representated groups to apply is fine but preventing others from applying as a way of achieving the same thing is a no-no. My local police force fell foul of that one!