Enough!!!!!!!!!!!
 

I have had ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!
Pensions. Pay. Conditions. CR*P.

This has got to be stopped.

BALPA: Get your butt in gear and start acting like a union!!!! Why do I pay you all this money???!!! Represent me and people like me or we will leave! We need a ballot on industrial action. Not just on the pension issue, or who our next Gen Sec is, but over terms and conditions in general.

We are now forced to bow before the MT drivers who refuse to take us on a bus because it's for the Cabin Crew.

We are assigned work AGAINST OUR WISHES because we are below CAP (No thanks to you guys there)

We are laughed at by the pilots of many other major airlines for our joke of a pay scale. (approx £21k for new entry Cadets).

We are amongst the most productive pilots ANYWHERE but HAVE YET TO SEE ANY MORE MONEY!!!!

We have seen catering standards go from bad to appalling! Half our meals are now almost inedible!!!

We have allowed our company to use September of last year as carte blanche for everything and anything that they wish to have changed. NO! Not on. We do our bit but all I have seen since I joined is constant erosion of EVERYTHING!

When we gave them TLV alleviations subject to conditions.... At what point have they met those conditions???!!!!

How about a bank pay-off once a year??? If I've done the work then surely I should be paid for it!

What about Flight Crew Water Supplies? 1.5l for a JFK? You are having a laugh!

Financial management of BALPA???!!! Where?!!!!

PAY???!!! We now trail our US counterparts by a ridiculous margin. Two crew on all US East Coast routes. Do they do that??? And what is their CAP? Not 90 is it?

I have voted for JF because I see no other option. No change of leader: No change. And that is not acceptable to me. We pay a lot of money to our union and we have seen nothing but worthless talk for some time.

I want:

More money.

More respect.

More time off.

More control of my life at work.

If you agree then let BALPA know. Nigels, Be silent no longer.

Fat Tony - well said! You've got my vote (or did I already give it to JF?).

PAY SCOPE PENSION

More...more...more, seems all we hear these days from pilots/ unions.
And this, at a time when many companies are having a difficult time just staying in business.
Some really bright guys at the pointy end really do need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Don't like your jobs/conditions?....then quit, as in bye bye. :rolleyes:

Ah, I see.

Pilots = greedy, bloodsucking leeches.

Airline Management = paragons of virtue and maintainers of high ethical standards.

Well, if you really believe that, you are so completely out of touch with reality that you probably also believe that Ryanair is a luxury airline.

Some airline managements are truly inspiring, but others have cynically used Sept 11th as an excuse to cut everything, whilst still somehow making a tidy profit.

Yes, the tone of Fat Tonys post is somewhat self-centred, but the truth is that terms and conditions are on a downward slide- for a variety of reasons.

Personally, I think it is time that passengers paid the true cost of air travel, and crews were rewarded with a salary commensurate with the level of responsibility they shoulder.

411A Why don't you wake up and smell the coffee instead, your ignorance is pathetic.


The World’s airlines lost $12 Billion (U.S.) last year. This is how the people who's arses you have so firmly attached to your nose, demonstrate the depth of their suffering.

"Oh poor me chief airline executive!!, why do my employees always ask for more, can't they see my suffering!!"

'Conquerors of the Skies' don't fly economy

Top male airline executives party in lap of luxury

May. 16, 2002. 12:03 PM

By Susan Pigg
Business Reporter

Some of the most beleaguered chief executives in the world start converging on an exclusive Pennsylvania resort today - many by private jet - to play golf, ride horses and raise countless glasses of single-malt Scotch to brighter skies ahead.

The opulent annual gathering of this old boys club, composed of more than 125 top aviation and aerospace executives from around the world, may appear unseemly given that battered airlines lost a combined $12 billion (U.S.) globally last year - more than they've made in profits in their entire history.

But old habits die hard. And the Conquistadores del Cielo - Conquerors of the Skies - has too rich a history to let little details like appearances ground a good time.

"It's a chance to exchange ideas, but it's very social," said one U.S. airline industry executive lucky enough to have made the guest list for the gathering, which was held last year on the Hawaiian island of Lanai. "The toughest decision you have each day is: Am I going to go sail fishing or scuba diving, am I going to play golf or am I going to go shoot trap or go horse-back riding or jeep riding?

"You're talking aviation all the time. And it's with some of the legends, the kingpins, of the industry. I've told friends of mine, `If you get invited, do not miss it.'"

Few Canadians make the cut. It seems that no Canadian Airlines chief executive was ever invited before the carrier was taken over by Air Canada. Even Max Ward didn't make the list.

Canadian Don Carty is a regular, but that's because he's chairman and chief executive of the world's biggest carrier, American Airlines. Air Canada president Robert Milton has attended in the past and is invited to this year's gathering at the posh Nemacolin Woodlands Resort and Spa in the Laurel Highlands of western Pennsylvania.

The surroundings speak volumes. Nemacolin has its own 1,188-metre private airstrip, two PGA-championship-rated golf courses, a 32,000-square-foot spa facility, equestrian centre with 30 horses, regulation polo grounds, shooting academy and the $2 million Paradise Pool with a swim-up bar. Room rates range from almost $300 to $3,000 (U.S.) per night.

"You talk about heavy metal flying in - the Global Express, BBJs (Boeing Business Jets) - if you're an aviation buff, it's awesome," just watching attendees arrive and depart, said the industry executive, who spoke on condition that his name not be used.

In fact, virtually no one talks publicly about the gathering, for fear they'll raise the ire of fellow members - or, more importantly, send up a red flag to governments fearful about even the appearance of collusion.

"I saw no big business deals coming down. There very well could have been," said the industry insider. "But there was some serious cigar smoking, drinking and poker playing well into the evening.

"It's like when men go out for a drunken night. You're sworn to secrecy. From what I saw there, the female gender is not acceptable."

The Conquistadores del Cielo originated in the late 1930s. That's when legendary aviation pioneers Jack Frye, president of then Transcontinental and Western Air (TWA), aircraft manufacturer Donald Douglas, of Douglas Aircraft Co., and William E. Boeing, who founded the aircraft manufacturing company that's now synonymous with air travel, decided that the growing industry needed a club of sorts.

In many ways, the Conquistadores has been a barometer of the hurly burly airline industry. Well-respected stalwarts such as Juan Trippe, the founder of Pan American Airways, the United States' first international airline, have been members. One of its more colourful members is brash lawyer Herb Kelleher - renowned for his love of cigarettes and Wild Turkey - who has moved up through the ranks as the highly profitable company he started more than 30 years ago, Southwest Airlines, grew in stature.

And every year there are the "newcomers'' - the guys who've risen to the top in an industry prone to cyclical ups and downs, such as David Neeleman, the founder of New York-based JetBlue, who is a Morman who doesn't drink coffee, let alone scotch.

"The guys who started it were swashbuckling kind of people," said another airline executive who's been to many gatherings over the years. "Today everything is quite moderate by the standard of the old days."

The Conquistadores gather twice a year. Only members converge on a Wyoming dude ranch each fall for a few days to hunt, fish, golf "and tell lies," said the airline veteran.

Each spring, the Conquistadores gather at a different resort and each member is allowed to bring a guest or two - invitations that are highly coveted in the industry, and hard proof that your career has taken off.

"You meet a lot of people," Continental Airlines chief executive officer Gordon Bethune told Fortune magazine last year of the annual pilgrimage to the A-Bar-A Ranch in Wyoming. "You fly-fish, play tennis. They do rodeos, ride horses, drink too much, drink too much, ride horses, drink too much. Did I mention drinking?"

There are believed to be just 125 to 165 Conquistadores in the world - some of them now retired from the day-to-day business - all of them chosen by a board of fellow members "as they achieve levels of leadership."

That could prove problematic for the old boys club over the next few decades, as the few women in senior management at major airlines around the world move to the top.

Just last year, Colleen Barrett became the highest-ranking female in the U.S. airline industry when Kelleher stepped down and she took over as president of Southwest.

"I was asked by a female reporter if I'd crash the Conquistadores," Barrett told a Knight-Ridder reporter at the time. "It might be fun and would make a lot of headlines. But I can't think of anything more boring."


Keep playing that violin while the city burns 411A....:rolleyes:

to 411A
 

Keep out it's not your battle. Fly your plane and stay out of a discussion that does not affect you. If your happy then find something else to do with you spare time.

Well legolas....'tis a club for the bosses....and with the title goes the perks.
Meanwhile, that quarter million dollar a year Delta guy(s) who sit in the Hilton Mainz coffee shop every morning, wolfing down the discounted breakfast, moan that "....damn, it ain't enough!"
Even heard one howl one morning that he would..."have to sell the summer house, the bit@h took me to the cleaners."
Tough beans.

411a
 

Your arguments are getting a bit thin mate. You use BA and every other underpaid driver in the world as a soapbox to disseminate your "think yourself lucky you've got a job" cr@p, but then revert to the Delta Captain (who is getting paid correctly) to try and portray all pilots as overpaid whingers. If every one was being paid what the Delta Captain is getting, you would have a point. Unfortunately most are getting paid closer to what BA get, and you don't have a point.

A little off topic but I wonder if our alleged Arizona sage and N5905.2 W0317.2 might perhaps be related. I think we should be told.:D :D

No Soddit, absolutely no relation.
But consider...several carriers that I have worked for in the past...the (early-retired) BA guys were ALWAYS complaining that..the schedule was no good, the pay was no good, the co-pilots were no good.....all these negative opinions, and yet....they STAYED. Can only recall ONE who actually admitted that..."good gosh, they actually expect me to WORK here..darn."
Wonder when some will wake up and realise that...the company does NOT owe you a living...you applied and asked for work...and now complain that to JFK only 1.5 litres of water are served?
How about...when we land and arrive at the hotac, beers all 'round. And when you retire at 55....money in the bank.
Can it really BE so bad?

Time you all started to give some thought to how poorly paid the guys who maintain your aircraft are. Thats the big problem now. Poor pay means no new recruits / apprentices to ensure the future of professional aircraft maintenance.
Think on.:(

No doubt about pilot pay and conditions have fallen behind.

However, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to get a different result.

Professional aviation has always been full of insecurity, so doesn't it make sense to develop a secondary income?

I enjoy my flying but there is no way I am going to trust my financial future to an industry which demonstrates time and time again that there is no such thing as "security".

Get real guys and start looking at some of the other options!

The FACT is 411A, pilots are purveyors of their craft/trade.
We agree to sell our flying "skills" to certain purchaser. In return, the terms and conditions of payment are directly conditional upon the skills supplied - pretty much like any contracted tradesman you employ.

If the purchaser then finds that he is UNABLE to make the agreed payment, the vendor is likewise at liberty to adjust the level/degree of quality service supplied.

The 1.5 liters of H2O provided for a long haul flight again draws your envious derision, 411A, so allow me to quote from an M.D.'s (that's a Doctor of Medicine, 411) reference manual wrt to the REQUIREMENT of water, at SEA LEVEL fo the human body to maintain Nutrition, Diet, and Wellness:
Water is an essential nutrient that is involved in every function of the body....It is necessary for all digestive, absorption, circulatory, and excretory functions, as well as for the utilization of the water-soluble vitamins. It is also needed for the maintenance of proper body temperature. By drinking an adequate amount of water each day - at LEAST eight 8-ounce glasses (2.05 liters) - one can be assured that his bodyhas all it needs to maintain good health"
So in light of KNOWN PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL ADVICE, the employer (in this case B.A.) is knowingly and wilfully depriving their crews of LESS than the MINIMUM amount of water determined by Doctors as necessary for maintaing their health.

Withdrawal of payment entitles the provider to supply/withdraw his level of service!

Ladies & Gentlemen...

In response to your comments: My post may appear a little self-centred, but I can assure you that all I want is MARKET RATE. Same as everyone else is getting. And for a company like BA operating the aircraft and routes that we do, the market rate is being set by the Major US and European airlines, and in some cases even the smaller UK airlines.

Regardless of that, we are being progressively shafted.

I want BALPA to put that pay claim back in.
I think I speak for us all when I say that we want more respect at work and an immediate improvement in our terms and conditions. (Pay excluded)

Mike Jeffery always used to say that he was proud to have the best flight crew in the world working for him. Irrespective of whether or not that is true, if you want the best, the pay has to reflect that or they will not join. They may even leave.

I say again: we are being shafted.

Tony, I'm with you 100%. Working for BACE, I never expected a mainline rate, but neither did I expect to be so thoroughly over by the BA management (if indeed that is not a contradiction in terms, ie BA and management in the same sentence!!). Management personnel up by nigh on 100%, adjustment to BA management salaries, the most pathetic inability to make any decisions without meetings x twenty, and then just to close us down in four of our bases!!!!!!!

In the meantime, refusal to work with BALPA, and effective cancellation of this years pay rise, a freeze on increments, AND A MORE RESTRICTIVE LEAVE POLICY.

411A is well aware that pilot salary is only about 5% of total costs. He continually cites his one example of the Delta guy - I look forward to this next twelve months and BALPA taking some action. If they don't (and I voted for JF too) I shall be awarding myself an extra 1% payrise - in fact I shall probably do that if JF DOESN'T win!!!!!

Well, how about the airline shareholders? Are they not entitled to a reasonable return on their investment? High costs only dilute the earnings.
In all fairness however, I certainly have to admit that BA seems totally overstaffed in the middle-management ranks. Folks in the head office who continually shuffle papers all day long certainly do not contribute to the bottom line.
How about a third option on the "poll"?

c) Get rid of un-necessary staff, and distribute the savings to employees that really DO provide a benefit to the company.

To 411A
 

Thank you for your comments. Now please leave us alone. You want a third poll option then start your own thread.

Kind regards,

Fat Tony.

Well, hang on Tony - it must be said that is a pretty accurate comment - wouldn't we all agree with that, if it had come from airrage, or exeng or Little Prince, or anyone?:confused:

Do all Nigelsl really feel now is an appropriate time to demand more money from a company that clearly is struggling to make any ?

As for the amount of water available to cabin crew on long haul
flying ....or being allowed on a certain crew bus...oh dear oh dear oh dear.

BA and that includes its passengers, staff, managers and directors are going to have to face a lot of changes to get it back into profit so give it a few months and the crew bus, water or pay situation may well be a very minor irritation.

Good luck

RT ;)

Well as BA pilots represent less than 13% of the companies total labour costs, are amongst the most long serving of all BA staff, are acknowledged as the most cost effective crew amongst all western inter-continental carriers and still earnless than Ryanair or Easyjet pilots then I think the time is right ot ask for a pay rise, especially as it will reflect the productivity increases in excess of 50% over recent years.

If the company want to save money then perhaps they should allow the flight crew to travel on the cabin crew transport, instead of allowing the MT drivers to demand we travel on a separate bus in order to increase the number of busses and drivers required. Perhaps that would produce a real saving, instead of telling the pilots that from now on they can only have 1.5 litres of drinking water on a long haul flight. If BA want to save money then its time to start picking on the expensive, wasteful areas of the company instead of the cost-effective and productive areas. We've delivered our side of the bargain and now we expect our remuneration to reflect that. IF the company loses cash then take it out of the managers bonusses, not my pocket.

Here Here!!
 

Well Said Hand Solo, Airlines around the world have marked flight crews as a target to pin their financial misconducts on. As you have suggested there are many other areas within an airline that require attention. That would , if constructively and efficently managed, bring tremendous cost savings.

As i have said on my most recent posts, we as professionals are more valuable then any other employee. This is not because i have contempt for any other group within the airline. My statement reflects the training and skill required by flight crews to achieve the position within the airline. This is reflected by the interview process that BA possess. Pilots go through a 4 to 5 day screening process, i believe no other group within the airline comes anywhere near to that sort of interview process. Therefore you are, we are, a vital professional group in the airline and should be treated as such.

Agree with Fat Tony and Hand Solo. Always thought you would get scales of economy with a large operation. How naive am I? It seems the more aircraft you have the higher employee per aicraft ratio becomes at BA. And that quite simply is one of the major problems.
If you are not necessary or do not have a positive impact on the bottom line you shouldn't be there! I think everyone should re-interviewed for their job and justify their postion. It must come from the top down though, but as one skipper I flew with said...."that Rod Eddington....he's like a light house in the desert".....????? "NO F@#*ing use to anyone!!!"
Will be interesting to see what happens to the pay review in the coming months. If BALPA don't sort it I for one will be giving myself a 1% pay rise.
Interesting fact about MT......It would be cheaper to limo the crew to the aircraft than use the '70's' working practices of MT! Amazing how narky they get when you want to travel on the c/c bus when the flight crew bus hasn't arrived. SORT IT OUT!!!!:mad:

Fat tony
ere ere mate come the revolution and I hope it is a lot closer than we all think.
I cannot believe the shower we work for have gotten away with so much.I truly believe without 11-9 we would still have lost as much money - it just got rod off his bum a bit and made him make some decisions and there are still more to come if we are to return to profitability-and before you whinging anti- pilots brigade tell us how lucky we are dont bother.We are working our butt off for below thae market rate!
I cannot believe we as a group did not react more to the death of Stu Clapson - I believe the way he was treated was a disgrace.
And one of the managers who came off badly in the IT -DF was carried home from SEA the other day on a BA Duty ticket the other day in First Class as he was entitled as apparently he is a consultant for BA as well as working for Qatar.Jobs for the boys or what!! Now is the time Brother
Africacore

I agree with Fat Tony. It is time we did something to better our pay and conditions - I hope that when the time comes our bite is as good as our bark.

We as a community are vigourously sreened prior to selection, then once in the job are have medicals, are put into the simulator twice a year, route checked, SEP tested and have SESMA watching over us every minute we are in the seat. If we don't perform we are either suspended or given our comics. No other depts within BA have these motivators, if you don't perform, nevermind...try harder next time e.g. B777 retro bunk modification debacle.

Now before 411A labels me as another Management basher Pilot. I have no gripes with paying Managers big salaries as long as they do their job. Far better to have one guy making the right decisions, putting in the hours and earing £120k than 5 guys running around like headless chickens from 10 till 3 earning £30k. W*nkerman's reinterviewing option sounds just the ticket.

ps I Voted JF

So it is quite obvious from the poll that the majority are unhappy, and if BALPA were to conduct a poll I think that would more than verify the results. The big question is when are we going to see something positive action on this matter?

"So it is quite obvious from the poll that the majority are unhappy"

Not so Homer. This is an open forum, and any registered user can vote, whether or not he/she works for BA (even 411A if he felt so inclined!)

Airclues

please excuse the basic level of this question, but how much should a pilot be paid?
I'm in the industry but not a driver

wryly--In the '50's and '60's, airline pilots were paid the same as doctors. Now, doc's are in the $120,000-$1M(U.S.) range. If you take UAL's 1981 pay(the last non-concessionary contract) and extrapolate it out for inflation, their current pay is right on line.

People in the U.S. are screaming about UAL and Delta being ruined by the higher pay scales but all they did was get a much overdue cost of living increase.

When cellphone salesmen are making $50,000 and bag loaders are making $50,000(with no overtime) is paying the pilot of a 747-400 $300,000/year out of line?TC

Anyway, the wages paid to the flight deck crews only correspond with 3-5% of the ticketprice so why bother!!!!

People are willing to pay 800.000usd /year to their hart surgeon, 100000 usd for breast enlargements,......

Why than is it that everybody envies the wages of a highly trained professional like a pilot?

Isnt it normal that the person who is responsable of a piece of machinery, weighing 350 tons, travelling at over 850kts at altitudes of over 39000ft are paid according to their responsabilities?

If a doctor makes a mistake he can lose 1 life at the maximum. This is horrible and it should be made sure that only capable people are being given those jobs!!!!Totally true, thats why we pay them!

If a flight crew makes a mistake, they can lose 400 lives in the air, thousands on the ground and lose billions of dollars worth of equipment!!!!And those guys should not be paid accordingly?

What a world we live in......

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Hey! I'd pay $100,000 to do a breast enlargement.

Long as I get to do a "post maintenance test flight" following:D :D :D !TC

Give us SCOPE and the money will follow. Pilot shortages. Mass Exodus of 737 co-pilots to Easy at LGW and LTN. Flights cancelled due insufficient crews. 'Trouble brewing' causes huge dip in forward bookings. Pay rise by Christmas. Just remember SCOPE is not an unfair request regardless of how the Daily Mail may try to report it.

The majority of BA short haul pilots are paid the same or less than GB/Bmed pilots. SCOPE is the request by BA pilots to include all work done by BRITISH AIRWAYS painted aircraft to be done by BRITISH AIRWAYS pilots. BA routes deemed 'unprofitable' that are donated to GB/BMed are not unprofitable due to flight crew costs. Look elsewhere and you shall find the answer.

It`s being in that Arizona sun that affects 411a`s way of thinking. But seriously 411, do you know the cost of living here in the south- east of England. As a shorthaul BA captain I struggle to get all the bills paid every month. We are vastly underpaid. I can make it no clearer than that.

Time for action......

Start where we mean to go on
 

Its not just the airline industry - its everywhere.. well almost.

I'm only a PAX, and as such I see it as "you all work for me". My choice is fly cheapo bak of the bus 'cattle class' or pay for what you get, want, need - whatever.

At roughly 700h a year in a flying bus, I probably do as much as you guys, plus I get to do a day job as well....

And yet I want safety, service, punctuality, and all the good stuff - indeed I expect it, so I also have to be prepared to pay for it. Right.

I am, but I am not prepared to pay for some fat cat licking the cream at the top and s****ing the staff. No Airline executive should get more salary that the chief pilot on the line. If that were law - a lot of things would change.

What p*ss*s me off is the inefficiency that has been worked into the industry. Safety and checks and balances - are essential. But there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.

I'm not a communist or a socialist, I believe in fair trade and a healthy dose of capitalism, but in the airline industry some of this global reality has gone - just too far.

How can I support YOU best - by not flying on the airlines where the bosses are raking in 10 fold what a pilot earns and more - perhaps we PAX have to help you bankrupt the system - so that a new order can emerge.

YOU TELL ME - that way at least we will not be shaft**g you.

The only logical solution I can see is to avoid the main airlines and support only those set up by 'ex-pilots & idealists' such as Freddy Laker and Moritz Sutter - ups sorry they are both out of the running ... so what now guys..................:confused:

Hav'nt got them all locked up have they.

gofer- you rock star!

Tell me what airline your gonna fly with and I'll apply- you can be my passenger anytime!:D

Do BA really restrict your availability of water to only 1.5 Litres on a JFK, or is that just the allowance provided by them? If you feel the need for more water, perhaps you could take some of your own, or are your pay and conditions so bad that you can't afford a bottle of water. Soon they will take away the Hostie to wipe your arse for you if things are allowed to carry on like this!!
I am fortunate enough to fly for a UK cargo airline. Our pay is 60% of BA levels, we fly mainly at night, pay for our own food and drink, operate older aircraft and are responsible for managing the whole flight on a worldwide ad-hoc basis. Most, if not all of the pilots here are happy with their lot. Why is that?
There have been a few NIGELs in training working here over the years. They all work towards BA as their ultimate goal, the flag carrier, jets from LHR, strutting through the departure lounge wearing a stupid hat and looking important. And when they get there.......they moan about how hard done by they are.
You want our sympathy, NO CHANCE, I think you are a disgrace to our profession.

Oh dear me! SBA we are not a little envious of our dear Fat Tony and collegues are we. Who told you that you earn 60% of a BA person? Unfortunately pay comparison is not easy due to the complicated systems used by the various companies.
The BALPA statistical gathering of late seemed to suggest that BA pilots were not earning what they were due compared to other european flag carriers.
I think it is great, SBA, that you enjoy your job and are 'happy with your lot'. I certainly love my job and would not want to do anything else but I also have a predilection for other delights in the world which means seeing people in daytime. I would make a poor bat but if thats what you enjoy, great.
I tend to take an opposing opinion to SBA and support FT's sentiments as if BA pilots are getting slowly stuffed by the green eyed monsters in their company, the fall out WILL affect all of us in the UK flying scene.
I once met a skipper from Chippy fryer in a bar and he would not stop wingeing about how BA had come in and ruined everything and BA this, and BA that and what a poor company it was. Unfortunately he let slip that he had gone for selection the year before and got binned. Naturally this raises the question of someone not deemed as suitable to fly big aircraft now having access to those fleets however my point was if it was such a bad company to work for, why apply?
In conclusion I would like to suggest that some at least try to camouflage the large deep fried potato snacks that are on their shoulders. With regard to being a disgrace, pity that I and the majority of the publc view BA pilots up there as the best and I certainly think they look very smart with platinum stripes. I've always found them to be pleasant to speak to...some BA detractors on this forum appear quite venomous and bitter - great fun on a night flight full of rubber dog stuff out of Hong Kong!!
Kind regards,
yours aye,
Leslie

Leslie,
Sorry to disappoint you but I am quite happy on a 53 tonne four engine aircraft that still requires a pilot or two and have never felt any desire to apply to BA. If I wanted to operate a computer for a living I wouldn't have bothered with the ATPL.
You think I must be a little envious, but this thread is three pages of BA pilots saying that conditions are so bad they should be taking industrial action. What am I supposed to be envious of?
"BALPA state that BA pilots are not earning what they are due compared to other European flag carriers." Surely what you are due is related only to the performance of BA. If other carriers are offering higher salaries, it is probably because they are in a better position to do so. This may be through better management, better working practices, more efficient crewing, government intervention or just sheer luck. None of this changes the fact that if the Company isn't making money, it is downright stupid to be demanding a salary increase. Just call in at the Brussels dole office and ask the Sabena pilots that went on strike a month before the airlines collapse.
Perhaps their grievances were less important than half a litre of water and a crew bus.

Enjoy your whingeing!!

:p :D More than just a number :p :D

You've got a point there SBA. I dowonder how many Sabena pilots are still at the dole office. A handful maybe? Most of them are working for a company called DAT and the rest are flying for various companies around Europe. What I do know is that there are a large number of Sabena 'executives' finding it tough to find another job. Here lies the Nigels gripe. BA use the term 'market rate' as a club to beat us with when we come cap in hand over the last few years. Why can't we use it now?

Whilst your at it, tell me what you earn so that I can check your 60% statistic, because the DHL rates I've looked at are not 60% of what I'm getting.

Judging by SBAs location and job description I'd wager he's flying for someone like Air Atlantique, on something old and clapped out like an Electra. Well good for him, I'm sure he's a martyr for his employer. Strangely there are a couple of former Air A pilots just up the road at BHX flying for BA. Both excellent operators and neither in the least bit bitter about BA. I suppose some people just get on with their careers and others just sit around resenting them for doing so. If he wants to fly a computer he should stick to his Flight Sim 2000. If he bothered to find out he'd discover the that modern airliners are actually real aircraft, and considerably more complex, higher performance systems than Electras. Still, our guys enjoy flying them just as much as the 747 Classics, 747-400s, 737-200s, 737-400s, 757s, 767s, 707s, L1011s, DC10s, A300s, BAC 111s, ATPs, ATRs, DC 3s, Bandeirantes and Twin Otters they used to fly.

By the way, if you think pay should be performance related then consider which airline has flown billions of passengers across the world for over twenty five years without a crash. I'd say thats a pretty good performance.