Stop bashing "P2F"
 

I'm 19-years-old. I got a job with easyJet two months after my nineteenth birthday and I now have just over 200 hours on type to go with the 160 I got at OAA. I'm lucky and I believe you make your own luck in flying. This is also based on what I'm told being a third generation pilot with both my Father and my Grandad flying forty-plus year careers with British Airways and it's predecessors.

P2F is the future because it makes no sense in growing older after having just paid all the money you do to obtain a fATPL and sitting on your backside doing :mad:, working menial jobs or taking flying positions that don't allow you do to what you ultimately want - fly a jet. If you are happy to piston pound and fly turboprops all day, fair play, but don't bash someone who invests in their future by paying money for something that ALL the airlines today want - a type rating and hours on type.

It is a gamble but you don't get anywhere without taking a risk. I did not pay for my type rating or my line training and I was lucky that I went straight in from OAA. Others are not as lucky and are making their own luck. If you do not have the money, cannot justify it or are for whatever reason unable to pay for a type rating or hours on type, it's going to be a long wait for you to get a job in this climate on a jet and even if you are able, you'll essentially pay for it through a lesser salary or in another way.

My advice is if you have the money, pay it and take a leap of faith - everyone will eventually have to do the same, you'll just reap the rewards earlier.

* TROLL ALERT *

I hear a storm brewing...

...oh nope it's my coffee..

This one should be interesting. ...

Quite right OP! Its not your fault if you've got more luck in your bank account than the others. Make hay before the airlines go back to using that other currency "skill", whatever that is...

The Great Pilot Shortage of the 21st Century

19_flying_A_jet …

Narcissism is a term that originated with Narcissus in Greek mythology who fell in love with his own image reflected in a pool of water

@ sapperkenno - LOL
 

You're 29 and still flying GA.

When I'm your age, I'll be a TRI/TRE.

Pay the money and get on with it or turn 40 and have no hope. That's all I'm saying...

If these kind of airlines want the type of inexperienced pilot willing to gamble everything on one shot at getting in ,then they are welcome to them,I hope they still think its a good idea when they gamble their aircraft and passengers lives trying to get in on a bad approach..Let the public decide they should at least know who's up front.
Paying for type ratings,yes I agree with whether bonded or after successful interview with job guarantee,this is the reality now as too many in the past abused the system.

I agree.

There's plenty of the 'good ole days' boys on this board, so you only ever hear those who never had to deal with P2F in the first place. They're full of buzzwords but typically their opinions have very little substance.

Even in this thread it's been suggested that you should refuse such schemes. Unfortunately that only works if everyone else does the same. How do people propose we accomplish that? Hold a giant tea party for all unemployed pilots and make them pinky promise they won't do it? Perhaps send round a polite email?

Of course all of those pilots will now need to build hundreds of hours. Thank god there's an abundance of available flying positions worldwide. Hang on, no, that's not true at all, is it?

P2F started a long time ago, probably before the threadstarter even muttered his first word. As with all pilots today, they start their training in a P2F environment. It's all very well lambasting a student for playing the game, but it's a neccessary evil when the alternative is sitting on your arse at home, or managing to find a flight instructors position that doesn't actually cost you money. Of course, in that position they could make a self-congratulatory post on PPrune whilst their ratings lapse and their skills diminish, but at least they'd have the comfort of being congratulated by many who were put through their training and employment without any real financial cost.

The threadstarter didn't create the P2F culture, he just has to live with it.

There's a story doing the rounds that new candidates for entry into a certain well known Eiry/Brit regional airline are going to have to provide their own aircraft on loan to the airline.

It's a long time ago since I was 19 but if I remember correctly, I had a bit of humility back then.

19 Flying a kite
 

If you are, as you say you are, flying an easyJet aircraft - it won't take them long to read your utterly stupid post and fire you.

Your stupidity has made me laugh my ar5e off.

Now lwt's get something straight son !!!
 

You didn't make your own luck !

You didn't pay !

You didn't do the investing !

You didn't take the risk !

and finally, you didn't take a leap of faith !

and if, in between leaving school and starting at oxford you earned the money for the course then you have my sincere and humble apologies

He's right though, troll that he might be. The guys that made his correctness possible are those that allowed themselves to be bonded to airlines for the type rating in the past. Pilots are the most useless of trade unionists and so the tariff to fly is high.

Troll or not, truth is he is right sadly. The system has changed forever.

You can't co-ordinate action among low hour pilots because it's akin to herding cats. It's dog eat dog now.

I did the self improver route... glider towing, para dropping and now on a medium TP but don't see myself moving onto jets anytime soon due to the way the system works now. It will take a lot more networking and a fair dab of luck.

At the same time, I know a guy who started more or less same time as me and did P2F with bmi then got into easy. He is now gearing up for a command. His 30k gamble paid off and he is years ahead now in terms of both career and money. He essentially made his own luck albeit with massive stakes.

Whilst I value the varied flying I have done and have had great experiences working my way up the industry, I don't have a pot to pi$$ in and have to be constantly reminded by my boss that there are people queuing round the block for my job if I don't like it.

All told though, I would not change it. My experiences have made me the person I am and the Pilot I am and for that I am thankful. These are my stories to bore people in the cruise with. What will be your stories Mr 19yr old?

Oh God, please tell me it's a wind up and he's not one of ours.

*Puts popcorn in the microwave*

Well, I guess it is enough to ban him, isn't it? This is supposed to be a forum for professionals and future professionals (hopefully).

Same for me.
:}

Well that brightened up a soggy afternoon.

The OP's real stroke of fortune was merely an accident of birth.

On we go.....

P2F
 

Daddy buys rich kid a job.............. Company bean counters laugh all the way to the bank.

Been happening in one profession or another for hundreds of years in family's that want to keep those children who can't be trusted with the family money in respectable employment.

And why on earth not?
Unnecessary suffering is a remarkable self indulgence usually engaged in by those whom you'd not want in the pointy end.
You can blame British Airways in the beginning for starting the monstrosity of patronage that called itself Hamble.

Maybe you will be a TRI/TRE... no doubt having willingly paid for all your command then Trainer courses etc.

Hopefully by 40 you might have an expectation that you start to get paid a salary :8

The rest of us want(ed) a career, not an expensive hobby :sad:

Unbelievable..

Grow up my friend and leave the hard job done by professionals who spent their life suffering and sacrifying, eating mud and studying, traveling abroad and leaving beloved at home...

If you have the bucks for that, lucky you, but for god sake don't tell such bullXXXt and respect other's sacrifices in excelling in aviation, fighting against people like you for a right seat..

360 hours, and in ten years "I'll be a TRI/TRE" Jeez, the arrogance! In ten years time sonny, maybe - just maybe - you'll have learned enough to call yourself a pilot.

At a sort of random guess I'd say there was a parallel here with the pilot of the last century and the soldier pulling the trigger who gets splattered with the blood and guts of his spifflicated enemies contrasted with the pilot of the present, the operator who pushes a button and watches an Afghani or two puff away in the dust of a screen shot from a thousand miles away.
But then again, no one's going to pay US$23million for the reminiscences of the screen jockey which is not that much more than I was offered for mine anyway. All in all a most successful little exercise in salmon fishing with dynamite.

We were thinking of selling our company aircraft and flying comercial, however having read this twits post I think we will actually upgrade aircraft rather than sell, there is NO WAY my staff will be made to sit in the back behind twits like this, good Lord, he might be asked to fly a visual approach on a VFR day with NO ILS! {and we all know what this leads to}, As for the atmosphere in the cockpit with the likes of this imature brat, it doesnt bear thinking about!

No way this is true, and if it is I hope I never have to share a flight deck with the OP.

Second what someone else has said, you didn't make your own luck you bought your own luck with dad's money.

There's nothing wrong with having training paid by your folks if they are in a position to help, it's incredibly lucky. But be grateful and humble about it, instead of taking pot shots at the guys who can't afford and rubbing it in that they are actually learning the trade from the ground up rather than buying into RH seat jet jobs. Instead start saving some money from your shiny job so that one day when your child says he wants to be a pilot you can help him out.

Also if this is real it's probably not going to take many people long to figure out who you are from your description as a 19 year old OAA graduate who's dad flew for BA, combine that with a good dose of arrogance to distinguish yourself further. Enjoy your new found crew room popularity. :ugh:

#32 as I write and climbing nicely for the tropopause.

That's the problem with this "justin Biebers of the skies",mummy and daddy bought them a career then they come here with their condescending,self righteous, uninvited opinions…..dad fly for BA?I met a few guys like that at CRC,you'll fit right in! :mad:

Still hard to believe this guy's for real... it's gotta be a joke! Not the P2F thing, but the ATTITUDE. I hope I'll never fly with you with such arrogant mindset, demeaning those who have not had your's parent's bank account, and minimizing the extremely valuable experience (that you will never gain) of flying single pilot over the bush, turboprops in icing, landing on dirt strips, taking real decisions.

Even when you turn captain (surely by the time you reach your 24th birthday, right?), your lack of human consideration, lack empathy for your peers who went through different paths because they did not have your daddy's money, will only attract disdain from others.

Unless you won the lottery, and can then consider yourself extremely lucky in realizing your dreams, chances are you have not purchased the very car you drive to work with, sorry, not work, expensive hobby. You do not pay the rent of your flat or house either. Mom and dad are paying for all this. Any human being with an ounce of humility would rather be discrete about their own situation, should they be in your shoes.

Once again, this is not about P2F in itself, although a highly controversial question which I do not approve. But reading such remarks about the "losers" who can't afford it, this is outright indecent. You are just demonstrating that your money will take precedence over some other pilot who may be twice as competent, or ten times as much experience. This is sad, and I know it is far from a lie, unfortunately.

In a normal (as in not P2F) interview, the recruiters/managers look at the qualifications of the candidate, the experience, but also make sure the a$$holes are screened out, not to contaminate the atmosphere at work.

If seems in this instance that the P2F recruiters did the exact opposite, or maybe they just looked how much money was in the bank.

It all my words seems useless, just remember one thing:

"The a$$es you're kicking on the way up, you'll be kissing on the way down"

If you can't even remember this, not to worry, life will teach and remind you.

Happy landings, top gun.

Hahahahaha!!, Hoooohooo. Phew, haven't had such a good laugh in ages.


Sadly for our young 'god of the skies' the CAA/training department and trainers still have a say in who gets to be a TRE/TRI and personality, professionalism and skill play a fairly big part. The amount of £££££'s from daddys APS pension scheme is, by and large, irrelevant.


It's a job, you get PAID for doing a job.


Happy trolling.

I say!
You don't suppose that the OP is a woman troll do you?
That might help to explain the resounding subsequent silence although perhaps one had better not go into any further detail in the furtherance of one's investigation into the psychological possibilities and imperfections of the specimen under examination.

19 and Flying a Jet I cannot believe I am actually rising to this but just on the off chance you are not a troll or wind up merchant or whatever else you have been called let me just tell you something worth knowing. Your kind of arrogance is detested on the line at easyJet and is one of the reasons Balpa have been pushing hard to get recognition for the hundreds of non rated sound operators at other airlines trying to get into the company.

I went onto a turboprop after completing my training and learnt from some of the best operators I could have ever have wished to fly with. All of them most probably better than you will be at the same age. So don't get carried away with thinking you will be a TRI/TRE, maybe you will be, but you have a shedload to learn first.

I have 2000 hours and am now flying the Airbus. I've worked my way up (to a certain extent) and still I realise that what I know at 2000 total hours (and double the amount of jet hours that you have - NOT MANY) could maybe fill the back of a fag packet. It's called humility, you would do well to learn some.

This industry has been destroyed by share holder value commercial greed and bonus culture for management . These young pilots need to wake up and stop paying for permission to fly .They have their frozen Atpl fresh from school all just say no to pay to fly ,airlines will eventual have to change .If people continue doing this slave labour their future earning potential will be very low with even less respect .
I've been in this business for 25 years never had to pay for a type rating but year on year all our conditions are sliding .
Stick together fellow pilots or there will be no future for anybody good luck to all out there it's difficult and it always has been even for my generation and before who started out on this career path .

I want to know what the parents were thinking. It's all well and good buying your brat into a job if they don't have the talent and maturity to do it for themselves, but this is aviation. There's a good chance that the brat might kill themselves, or worse somebody else.

The title of this thread is all wrong.

It should have been "Please, I am begging for a bashing, and I'll give you all the right reasons for it!"

Hi 19 flying ajet
 

Did not bother to read Your faritail.
Pay to fly for money has to stop.
I deal with You every day , scary . No pilots, hardley operators.
Good luck ,lets hope You never meet a real Check Pilot.

Ok, I'll bite. I think it's possible to become a safe and professional transport pilot regardless of how initial training was conducted (military, ga, traditonal ab-initio company sponsored/discounted cadet programs, MPL, and 0-atpl self funded), for those who get hired by a reasonably well managed airline.

At the same time I keep wondering if people who were accepted into a training that is paid for by others, fully or partially, have faced more rigorous selection earlier?

As an example, i read that in Norway a public university offers a 3 year degree in aviation now that gives you a Cpl-ir etc and fATPl, and some added academic knowledge as a bonus. Tuiton is symbolic, 200$ a year or so. Needless to say, seats are limited, lots of people apply, and selection is rigorous. As far as i understand graduates dont struggle to find a job. Same is generally true for military training.

The more you pay for your own training, the less selection there was to begin with, and then when you'll have to face that selection later, there's a risk you'll fail...after having paid a substantial amount of money (and hopefully you wont fail by making a hole in the ground, but just not get hired).

Most of these pay-for-a-license, pay-for-typerating, and pay-to-fly schemes are just a way to postpone selection, in my humble opinion. That doesn't mean that those who go through that way of training can not be excellent pilots, they could have passed the same standards others did, we just dont know, so possibly more selection is needed, for some of them.

Or should the thread title have been:
'The Curse of BĀ from the Mummy's Tomb'