What an excellent post!

Bribery - noun
Crime of giving a benefit (e.g., money) in order to influence the judgement or conduct of a person in a position of trust (e.g., an official or witness). Accepting a bribe also constitutes a crime.

We are all assuming this pleasant little boy will be offered a permanent contract with easyJet. Justice would be where...

bral: Ah yes, but the son I'm talking about wasn't Jamie. This son (the middle one of the three) came along after I had left the RAF. Happy Daze.

I just wrote a cheque for £9k for one years university fees for my daughter.

Am I guilty as well?

No...

You aren't paying for her to gain employment after she has done her degree, are you?

That's true Newb.

I remember when bonding started in the seventies, I was horrified and thought it would never catch on.

Then paying for a type rating, I was horrified and thought it would never catch on.

Then paying for Line Training - WTF??

It probably has some way to go yet - buying a command? Selling your job to the highest bidder on EBAY? God knows...

I presume it must be something to do with capitalism, but as someone once said, it's the unacceptable face of capitalism

Back to the opening post - it's a wind up. The chap would be very easily identifiable in EZY - surely no-one could be that stupid! And we've all fallen for it!

It all makes me so grateful at how very lucky I've been. 10 types and never paid for a rating. And (I know it's been said before) never did a days work in my life.

JW

Your son deserves a stimulating and fulfilling career in flying with as many happy memories as you have.

As do we all.

I just can't help thinking that recently, we've all been scammed.

Your son can look to you for inspiration and advice, but spare a thought for those who are out of work and don't have any useful contacts, I hear from the new FOs I fly with that there are a fair number of recent FATPLs who haven't found a position yet, even after a year of looking.

Some training companies guarantee a job for you at the end of the course, but don't tell you what the job is until the last minute and you still have to pay to have the type put on your licence and it may be a single pilot position in the boonies (Africa) and if you turn it down, there goes your "guarantee".

It sounds exciting, but it's not for everyone.

Yeah it´s the slippery slope.

Someone tries.

Others follow.

And it becomes the norm.

The end result is not pretty in some of the companies where pilots have collected a large amount of debt to afford the whole thing in the first place. And some guys cannot even afford to call in sick some months when the hours are low and they manage to catch a flu or cold when they are rostered to fly.

Part of the problem with P2F is that the traditional route for pilots. Instructor, turboprop, regional jet then large has all but disappeared.

There are plenty of pilots at my company (turboprop outfit) who would love to move onto jets but the thought of paying puts them off, these are pilots with 1000s of hours who have learned their trade and have a quality that I believe the jet companies should value.

Experience seems to count for nothing unless you have the pounds to back you up, it's all about the money and that's sad.

Depatrai in post #42 hits the nail on the head. What we have now are some people coming through the system to RHS of jet transport aircraft who would, had they gone the military or fully funded by the airline cadet scheme, failed the 'Biggin Hill' aptitude element, or failed to go solo, or having got to a course then got 'chopped' for failing to reach a minimum standard. All these failures, due to their access to money, are now, or will , one day, be sitting in the pilot's seat on an airliner and that is truly frightening, not to mention the additional load it places on the captain.


By the way, any bets this thread was started by the OP's father? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/wink2.gif

Ref. Regulation 6's post and others.
back in the day, an airline would have invested a large wedge of cash in training a pilot, only to see their investment walk away to another employerand cash-in on the "free" training......manual trades had apprenticeships...one worked for peanuts and was taught on the job, by a skilled colleague, who's productivity consequently suffered. If the apprentice was bright ,willing and industrious, the lost productivity was recouped and hopefully a profit made (otherwise, why bother employing apprentices?...it's a business, not a charity or school!)

At the end of the apprenticeship, the newly-qualified tradesman could expecta goodly payrise....or, if business was quiet, the employer, having fulfilled his obligation, let the worker go.

So , you see, nothing has really changed....the bond stopped the trainee shafting the trainer...the t/r is really no different to the engineer/mechanic who has to provide his own toolkit (OK, a motor-mechanic can get a good kit for under £ 10K, but he doesn't get anything like a Pilot's wage and works around 1700 hours a year)

Manufacturers do provide training-courses, these are usually only a couple of days and are not cheap, yes the employer usually puts a loyal employee forward and picks up the tab.....the qualification is, like a t/r , only of any value in that franchise....leave the employer, you are then hunting for a job in another location, or start again,on the path of learning the specifics of a new type.


P2F, I can see as an investment for someone young and capable, but it has to be borne in mind that the training investment should be reflected in the wage, spread over ~15 years (don't forget the loss of interest on that capital, or that which you'll pay if you can borrow it.

The elitism has gone out of flying, anyone who is willing to front the money,can train to be a pilot....wether their license will earn them enough to make it a good or wise investment, is another issue.

Possibly, but please don't fall into the trap of thinking that enough money up front will cover any shortfall in aptitude and an acceptable level of flying skills. With P2F this essential safety net has been removed.

It is possible that the thread starter is 19 and a pilot at easyJet, but I am a TRE there and I have never met a 19 year-old pilot flying for us. The youngest I have ever met was 21 and exceptionally mature - a great guy. The mere fact the bloke thought to start a thread like says he is not mature and is either a troll or a berk. Given the vast number of vastly superior, unemployed young pilots, I would be most disappointed to find this guy actually works for us - I suspect, however, he does not.

Elitism may have gone out in some ways, but not others. While more new pilots came in over the last two decades from working class back grounds, recent trends are showing a move towards the monnied again. Not necessarily the old money, which may have had a code of conduct, too, but the new money with spoilt kids who have never been told "no".

So, while many new cadets are capable and have good maturity and attitudes, we also see those with poor aptitude or attitude. Unfortunately, what we don't see is those candidates with outstanding aptitude and attitude but working class parents anymore. P2F is a selection system based on financial resources, placing suitability second.

For those who console themselves with regarding it as a necessity in the modern world, it is not. If no-one did it, then it wouldn't exist. It is a symbol of the modern "want it now" culture of greed outstripping common sense. It is also a symbol of innate ego that beginners are willing to cough up so much in order to go straight onto jets, not deigning to get their hands dirty on smaller aircraft.

I get it that we have now ended up at a point where most have to TRSS. I don't like it, and regard myself as fortunate to have been in the right places at the right times to avoid it, even though it was already becoming the norm as I came up. And I see the argument that P2F will be the norm like TRSS is. However, if nobody had agreed to TRSS 15 years ago, then it wouldn't exist now. Just because my generation had too many people willing to fund training departments, that doesn't excuse the new generation doing the same (or their parents who should know better). There is a distinction between TRSS and P2F, too - paying for the rating and training is one thing, but paying to work? Really?

OAA/CTC
 

Id be very interested to know what the percentage of new hires on jets in the UK come from OAA/CTC each year and what percentage come from the experienced/type rated/military/turboprop/instructor ranks

Is there any way of finding this out?

And what percentage comes from Europe

Alexander De Meerkat....if you do however, by chance come across a line check with a 19 year old, for all of our sakes...give him a good slap from us all.

"19 and Flying a Jet" eh? The screen name doesn't indicate much imagination now, does it?
Some of the self financed trainee guys are good, and keen. Some are not.
Like this guy the other day, at FL350 During a quiet time ...
Me: "So how did you get into flying then?"
Him: "Well... I was lying in bed one morning, around 1130, and I thought it was time I did something with my life, so I went and borrowed £120,000 from mother, and here I am!"
Accompanied by supercilious grin.
I couldn't decide which of his eyes to stick my pen into.
He wasn't keen, he wasn't competent, he was crap. He wasn't bothered whether he passed or failed.
In the olden days, he might just have been weeded out at an earlier stage.
Like I said, I've no problem with keen guys willing to learn, but the type above are becoming more prevalent.

We won't be hearing from this :mad: again. He quit easy and joined NASA this morning.:ok:

Quote: "He quit easy and joined NASA this morning."

On the one-way mission to Mars I hope...

I feel sorry for the guy, and all cadets. He's never going to know what it's like to fly an aeroplane, not a computer. After my decade of GA (all single pilot, IFR, singles/twins, pistons/turboprops), I'd only consider an airline outfit when i stop enjoying the job.

Guys give him a break, he must have been day dreaming sitting in front of his PC flight sim

SID I echo your experience and sentiments regarding some of these new FO's. It all boils down to their attitude and expectations. Some are indeed keen and competent; unfortunately many are like this lad. In my experience they have not grasped the idea of being part of the team and just want to be seen posing as 'the' pilot. My apologies to the many who are indeed a pleasure to fly with.

All new FOs at my employer are cadets, not experienced - they stopped taking experienced FOs a fair way back. The bulk of the Brits are OAA, and to be fair the vast majority are very well adjusted.

There are also cadets from other countries, one Nor-Nor-West country which seems to specialise in producing very young, extremely arrogant kids, many of which are untrainable, arguing with TREs and LTCs alike. These are the ones who turn up scruffy, spend too much briefing time strutting in the terminal and too much turn-round time posing to embarking pax and chatting up the cabin crew. They are also prone to bringing in Go-Pro type cameras for their YouTube and Facebook videos, thinking that they are pin-up stars. They are typical products of that nation, but even from there we do see some that are very good to work with.

Cadets don't seem any better or worse on average than the experienced FOs I saw in other companies, as long as they have a good attitude. Where the difference lies is in how experienced FOs who have worked their way up have usually had enough experience to knock any attitude problems out of them and be more mature about their behaviour than the gobby minority of cadets.

Still, while average quality seems to have dropped little, TRSS and P2F will exclude many better candidates just because they can't afford to subsidise the industry.

LOL
 

LOL - you guys are killing me with your issues.

I'm 19 and I fly a jet. Don't care what you have to say - never will.

Now quit bashing me and P2F when I made a good argument for it (I never actually did it but I think it's a good idea).

Got to go - Geneva calls.

Have fun sitting at home and writing about me - I'll be sitting in the clouds enjoying the view.

Put the popcorn back on guys. This one could get long!

p.s. enjoy Geneva, 19 years and 2 months, easy jet FO based in Gatwick went to OAA and who's dad flew for BA. I really hope that is a very elaborate back story, otherwise your stupidity dumbfounds me. :ok:

Wow, he really is barely 19 years old, sounds like somebody's taking him to a fun ride

The Dutchness is strong in this one.

"It is a gamble but you don't get anywhere without taking a risk."

I'm also 19. Can you or your dad lend me around 120k to complete my training? Would you like to take that risk?

Looked at departures to GVA and the crew, 19 is a troll. Entertaining one though....

I look forward to your future work sir.

who cares?
 

who cares how old this guy is! its the same for all guys at easyjet, ryanair, thomson etc..

IT'S ALL PAY TO FLY...

with the exception of some who came through the forces, and one or two through BA FP, we all paid..

Who got their PPL, CPL IR etc paid for...?

who got a salary while doing the above... lest than 5% of us under 35...

I think that much was obvious 7 pages ago.

The outfit I flew for during many years of great working conditions, good well maintained aircraft, good benifits and pay, and the very best guys/galls to work with tried a "direct entry" hire as an experiment many years ago, the best comment I ever heard came from an ex RCAF, DFC and Bar captain who was a joy to fly with, when asked by the chief pilot what he thought of these F/Os S/Os he replied thus. "Some are OK, but really struggle with basic flying skills, however the bigest problem I see is getting their :mad: heads through the cockpit door!" He passed away recently, one of the best!

Simple solution for dweebs like this is to only let them P2P2.

There you go young lad, you've paid one hundred and twenty grand to be the radio operator and that's what you'll be until your attitude is adjusted.

p2f
 

ok so the line is drawn at line training is it then?

how many of these easyjet/ryanair/wings cadets are now BA? or emirates a380? or now captians, TREs etc on 6 figure salaries?

This is how it is...

depending on who is complaining, the goalposts are moved all the time to suit the complaint..

In this industry you have to remain competitive..

Its all irrelevant. If you dont go through OAA or CTC its highly unlikely you will secure a job in the UK flying a jet. Thats the top and bottom of it.

"Its all irrelevant. If you dont go through OAA or CTC its highly unlikely you will secure a job in the UK flying a jet. Thats the top and bottom of it."

That is simply NOT true.

"Its all irrelevant. If you dont go through OAA or CTC its highly unlikely you will secure a job in the UK flying a jet. Thats the top and bottom of it."

That is simply NOT true.


It's probably not true now but I think not to far in the distant future it will be extremely hard to secure an Airline Jet Job unless you go to the likes of OAA and CTC.


I do think you probably still be able to go modular and work you way up the ladder in Corporate though, but if the allure of big shiny jets is what you want Corporates probably not the way forward as you will not be able to apply for jobs because you will be lacking time on type.

Superpilot BA stopped taking cadet pilots from Oxford over five years ago and I should know seeing I was at the meeting with John Monks when he announced the end of the SSP programme. Since then they have recruited once, in 2011, in which they took exclusively Direct Entry (type rated however) pilots. So your information on the cadet story at Oxford is a little out of date.

Not going to argue with you on the FPP score though as obviously that is also recruitment albeit a further time in advance.

And would you like to know about the 40+ year old ex Naples Air Center graduate employed by easyJet in their latest recruitment drive? Yes there are some rules that seem to be in place but they do not universally apply and there are exceptions. This forum is so damn negative all the time that it makes me want to delete my account and never visit again!!