This is all well and good but it means nothing unless BA start recruiting, so back to the original question; when will this be, or more realistically what are people's best guestimates? Thank you!

At the moment, they have a plan to reduce the number of 747 hulls in operation quite significantly over the coming year. Apparently the plan is not to scrap them, but to take out of service the odd one with lots of faults, fix it and then leave it parked behind a hangar or whatever until another one is getting a bit tired and then swap them over. The idea behind this is that it will give the engineers more time to fix things and also enable the company to respond to a route that suddenly becomes commercially viable, and I guess it will allow greater flexibility during disruption too. The pilot establishment will be based on the current forecast plan, therefore if the company suddenly decides to open up a route or increase frequency on a route outside the current plan's forecast, I reckon more type rated ex-hold poolers will be given a phone call (as per the recent Airbus at LGW requirement). Once those guys have been depleted, I think DEP selection will open up again. The stuff about the plan of keeping out of service 747s operational is only what I have been told by trainers, so it could just be rumour. The rest is just my own prediction of what the company will do. None of this is factual apart from the current plan to reduce the number of 747 hulls considerably.

Thanks for the reply.

Apparently 12 hold pool (maybe ex) have been called for short notice DEP onto airbus

Correct.....I believe LGW A320

bex
 

Already discussed on page 4 of this very thread.

I am so ahead of the game :O

For new entrants, it's still bloody brilliant. Do you pay for your TR, get offered flexi-contracts etc.?

The world of FO T&Cs has moved massively over the last 5 years and we're only waking up to the fact that this is not a temporary shift in T&Cs.

Give every airline has not shortage of suitable (by their definition!) candidates, it's still a fabulous offer but not for everyone as you're just a number at a massive organisation in the SE.

Really? Why leave British Airways for Emirates. To attain a quicker long haul command?

Voluntary or forced unpaid? If Senior Pilots are taking voluntary unpaid leave for their own convenience it might be cheaper for the company to continue to allow them and bring in cheaper junior pilots?

I have read figures close to 200 pilots are being taken via the future pilot program, if correct I would regard 200 as quite a lot and it should cover most of the requirements for an airline not expanding with nobody retiring. Is that a fair assessment or will there be opportunities?

Any more news or rumours regarding recruitment?

listen to yourselves....aviation is like politics (although a pilot would never say it)....its all talk of right & wrong. Yes it is, but you all miss out 2 key words...FOR & ME.

Not necessarily and I suspect that lifestyle and financial reasons may be the main motive for moving, for those that wish to do so. Especially if you are single and don't live in the SE and commute to LHR.

I would have thought it you were over a certain age (say 35?), joining on a BARP pension living in the UK, then BA is not actually that good a gig. Coupled with the corporate culture and unique working relationship on board, I should imagine that opportunities in the M.E and the Far East would tempt somebody with few family ties.
I know that I will be telling my children to look East & West and try to stay out of the U.K. (Unless they get into banking or politics)

The security and certainty that BA provides could quite well be a very attractive feature for someone who is more mature. Uprooting a family to move abroad is a costly experience and you then have the gamble of seeing if the whole family settle into where you have moved. If the other half is gainfully employed along with having the kids settled in school, then you would need fairly compelling reasons (i.e. unemployment) for moving long distance. BA would win hands down here versus EK.

If you are single with no dependants then (imo) EK is the better option - providing you can see yourself being happy in Dubai. The cost of living in Dubai versus UK has the potential to be lower in Dubai, if you are single. That along with the higher take home salary, means there is potential to have a little more financial flexibility for putting money to one side, than compared to being a single F/O at BA.

The problem with joining at a later age in BA is that the demographics work against you. There are approx. 100 pilots due to reach 65 in the next 5 years, followed by around 400 pilots in the 5 years after that.
That is out of about 3500 pilots.
Assuming that you are looking for a long haul command, I'm guessing that it would take a new joiner around 20 years to achieve it.
That together with the upcoming changes in pension LTA's, I'm guessing an awful lot of people are sitting there crunching the numbers.

Emma,

Just on the cost of living... I'm in Dubai now and have lived in the UK for about 5 years.

The difference is not big at all. It may seem like you'll get a lot of money for working here and you do, but it goes out at a similar rate. The going price for a small packaging of blueberries is around 4 pounds, just to give a (weird?) example.

Some things are cheaper, but all in all, in year 1 I am struggling to set money aside for saving etc.

Not meaning to hijack the topic, just trying to make it more complete :-)

Just out of interest, what would one say the time to command in EK is at the moment?

Whilst not wanting to divert the discussion from the primary topic which is BA Recruitment, at a rough guess it is around 5-7 years for a command. Plenty of information on the Middle East forum.

As for joining BA during your more mature years, you may be into your fifties or even sixties (if you joined in your forties) until you saw a long haul command but that is perhaps a small price to pay when comparing that to moving a family abroad with all the potential pitfalls that are associated with such a move. All you need is one of the kids to not feel settled and you either commute and send the family home or you all go back home and hope that there will be a plan C.

There seemed to be a degree of bewilderment in some of the responses questioning the logic of why one would leave BA for EK but if you are young and single, then the pros for moving have the potential to outweigh the list of reasons why you shouldn't move, providing you can see yourself being happy abroad.

It can be tough to save anything significant whilst you settle in but thereafter, it is possible to bank a comfortable amount over the space of a year at EK.

Is there any hope of Direct Entry Recruitment in the near Future.

Emma


Less than 20 yrs to a long haul command at BA?!


What are you smoking?

In fairness to BA the argument about low experience levels is probably flawed as they take so few each year. BA take perhaps 130 cadets a year, thats less then 4% of their entire pilot body, hardly creating an experience issue. BAs experience levels are probably amongst the highest in the world. Anyway BA took some experienced BMI pilots and were within their right to decide how many they wanted. The inexperienced cadet argument may only become valid if an airline is recruiting en masse. Other LCC airlines in Europe recruit hundreds of cadets and they will argue its not an issue while those LCC cadets fly with inexperienced Captains that does not happen at BA.

Obviously it can be disheartening for Pilots gaining experience in other airlines to see cadet schemes in an already saturated market but its BA's gig and they can rightly do as they wish, those pilots just have to sit tight and wait and see what happens when BA requires larger numbers. Anyone holding hostility to BA in that regard most hold hostility for every airline operating today.

BA pilots may not have to move to the ME after all. EK could be coming to LHR.

EK make no secret that their future plans are to stop over and continue routings, linking the globe (DXB-MXP-JFK-MXP-DXB as a teaser.) One transport search on Sir Tim Clarke reveals this.

Considering EK put 10 380's in and out of LHR each day without a spare seat in the house for months now, (plus the tie up with a weak (take-over soon) QF) how long before new basings are needed to continue onto the US, (EK's declared next massive expansion area.) LUFTY and Air Canada are doing their brown-trousered best to stop EK coming in and moving on.

With £230 extra per seat for business APD.............its money for nothing that the UK government love.

With another 200 777's and another 100 A380's coming...............

I am incredulous. Do pilots really sit in the right seat with BA for 20 years before getting a command. I simply cannot believe that anyone would do this.

I never ever spent more than three years in the right seat during my 47 years of serious aviation.

I might well have a wardrobe full of different uniforms from failed airlines but I reckon that I probably made more money and I certainly had a lot more fun.

So 15-20 years to short haul command.
25 years+ on long haul for new joiners?

What makes people think the take home pay at BA is worse than Emirates? That would all depend in which tax jurisdiction you choose to live. A significant number of BA pilots are non-resident anywhere for tax purposes. That's comfortably workable on any fleet! Their take home pay is very impressive!

Looked at in that way, other than an ego-command, BA wins hands down doesn't it?

Really? And your wife and children are non-resident anywhere too. Not in UK more than 90 days a year for last 5 years? No property owned anywhere in Europe? Where do you live - the M4 ibis?! Where is your pension (obviously no state pension or NI). Employed in UK, based in UK... I know its been done in the past, but can you really plan your next 30 years like this?

Tax evasion is nothing to boast about.

Incredulous? Really?

It's not rocket science. Roughly half the pilots are FO's and roughly half are Captains. Not much comings and goings at BA so you spend half your career in the right hand seat (20 years) and half in the left hand seat (20 years). For that to change by much, you'd need to have either serious expansion (which BA has not had) or a high turnover of pilots (which BA has not had).

Simples!

Yorkshire_pud
Personally I choose to live in the UK. What about you? My point being that you don't have to work for arabs or live in a VERY different (oppressive?) culture to avoid paying tax!

Incidentally there is a difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. One is illegal, one is not! Ask any politician (of any party!)

Do you even know the rules? Or how it's easy to comply with them?

I don't see why a time to command at BA of appr 15-20yrs (SH, maybe more for LH) is so surprising. At most US legacy carriers, the times seem just as long, if not longer...

But that guy in the TV Drama Pan Am was a 707 skipper at the age of 25! ;-)

You're forgetting that there are a significant number of BA pilots who will have joined in their early twenties which means that they will achieve their first long haul command in their late thirties or early forties. I chose to leave a regional operator where I could have had a command for BA where I may never achieve a long haul LHS. I can honestly say, hand in heart, it was the best move I've ever made.

If you want to hear something really insane how about when Qantas and Air
New Zealand had guys on the jumpseat (SO's) for longer than 10 years in the late 70's and 80's? The longest I heard of was 14 years.

It then went even crazier when 10-14 year SO's were doing 2 years as FO's and then finding themselves on command courses!

If you want to live in the desert, join EK etc. You can count your DHs till the cows come home.

The problem is that many don't and BA is still the best place to be in the UK, if you're patient with LHS.

The other problem is DEP is finished for the foreseeable future. Only those with a trial lesson logged in a cessna or the flight sim pro pilots can apply right now.

Many looking to make their long term career move can't wait possibly another 5+ years for DEP. And if/when it does open again, it may only be for A320 type rated guys now that the 737/74/76 fleets are largely contracting and 757s are gone. Many of today's cadets will be bidding for LH 5 years from now I suspect.

DEP is always oversubscribed, which leads the debate over BA to be a moot point.

I wouldn't rule out DEP for 5 years, and a least FPP is a scheme not decided by parents funding.

Yorkshire_Pud
I think to an extent that may be close to the truth. However we are just taking on some A320 pilots, and I'd be pretty confident in future we'll be taking more. Plus very likely B777 rated guys at some point.

Those types may not suit many, but it is DEP recruitment, and the employer will decide who brings most bang for their buck.
True, but that doesn't mean they will achieve a LH position. That all depends on vacancies at the time. Many of those vacancies may previously have been filled by DEPs. That happens!

Emma
That's a very fair point, and one which would definitely sway many towards, the sandpit. The two jobs are very different. Hard cash and rapid transition to LHS of heavy metal on the one hand, against 'just culture' and western employment values and principles on the other.

It comes down to individual choice which has to be good. That choice itself will depend on one's own position within the employment 'marketplace'. Also age will be a factor.

It's difficult to argue either is better, as they are simply so different.

Personally I quite like Dubai. I used to love taking a pair of Rolls Royces there for the weekend. Then coming home!:E

Who says it's purely FPP from now on?

There was to be quite significant ongoing DEP recruitment but then BA bought bmi and put a temporary end to that. Meanwhile - FPP cadets were already in the pipeline.

Quite rightly, in my opinion, BA have honoured their commitments to the cadets that had already started and they've started FPP recruitment again because the lead in time is so long.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see DEP and Managed Path open again over the next year or two. All three routes have their own positives and negatives and management have always said each route has it's place in the overall recruitment plan.

I'll believe it when I see it. That's not correct, BA have started more FPP courses than they initially pledged. I remember in 2011 when there was much fan fare surrounding the requirement for 800 pilots over a 5 year period, it even made the national press. I'm fairly certain that they are on the way to filling all of these much talked about positions with BMI and FPP cadets exclusively!

British Airways to recruit 800 pilots - Telegraph

I'm not so sure. The FPP have, as someone stated in this thread, a very long lead in time and enter the line with no experience of aircraft operations from previous employment or schooling. This can cause an 'experience' sink on the line which is generally countered by introducing DEP's into the training programme as well.


What this does is 'off load' the skippers at Gatwick by giving a skill variety in the RHS and not foisting keen but inexperienced FO's on every sector.


From what I can gather the business case for a further influx of DEP's is being made at the moment and the advantages of multi age/skill levels are being used as a business plan driver.


The other disadvantage for the FPP programme is future pay/retirement. Employ 800 people on the same contract at the same time will give you a headache if they either all retire at the same time or all remain within the company to PP34!


I expect DEP to be announced sometime this year, only IMHO of course.

I heard the figure of 100 pilots into BA in 2014. 60 or so FPP, and the rest DEPs. I think 20 DEPs have already, or are about to start, and all to be based at LGW on the A320.

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The 20 or so DEP's were the type rated pool applicants who were called as there was a slight delay in the FPP. I still expect DEP applications to open up again soon.


Sadly the applicants will still have to wade through the mire which is the HR department!