Just to reiterate. The current situation at BA is such that if you join BA as a DEP and are in your 30's (or older) and you want to go LH then you will most likely remain an FO.

Also I gather that the Bidline system is waited in favour of the top guys that,
leave aside, you can expect to not get a weekend off for a decade or so. This is worth thinking about if you have or plan to have kids.

I only mention the above because they don't necessarily emphasise it enough
when you go through the recruitment process. (at least that was my experience). I also agree that the situation at LGW is not certain.

I believe there is a serious change on the horizon within BA wrt seniority for command. At the moment, there are a considerable number of First Officers who are happy to sit in the right hand seat of a long haul aircraft and wait it out for a long haul command, rather than spend time as a short haul Captain. This means that traditionally, short haul commands are considerably less junior than long haul commands. These FOs who sit in the right hand seat have generally achieved their long haul command by about pp19 or 20 at the latest, and so have usually only experienced maybe one or two years of frozen pay at pay point 18. However things have changed considerably with the age legislation changes. Captains staying on for a further ten years means that the average pay point for getting a command is increasing considerably. Long haul FOs have always had a financial choice to make; bid for all available commands or accept a pay freeze on pay point 18. However, for NAPS pilots, this is a serious taxation issue now! About five years from now, a long haul command is very unlikely to occur much before pay point 24. If that long haul FO now hangs about and waits for a long haul command (without bidding for short haul), he/she is going to end up jumping from pay point 18 first officer pensionable pay to pay point 24 captain pensionable pay. For someone who has paid average contributions into NAPS, that is going to result in a tax bill in excess of £150k (yes you read that correctly). With the coming year's reduction to an annual allowance of 40k (and very likely 30k sometime within the next five years), there is literally going to be no unused allowance available, and so £150k cash is going to have to be found! Couple this with the pay point 18 freeze for at least 6 years rather than the current one or two, and you have a very very strong incentive to keep bidding for ALL available commands even for the most die hard long haul FOs. This is going to make the differential between long haul and short haul command seniority narrower than ever before. I think we could easily be looking at pay point 22 as the earliest point to obtain a short haul Heathrow command... And we'll have a lot of 'long haul' pilots very begrudgingly sat in the left hand seat of a short haul aircraft. Either that, or we'll have a lot more career FO's who can't afford to take a command due to the resultant tax bill, so they will sit on pay point 18 for the rest of their careers.

(Note. This is my own opinion and does not in any way reflect the opinion of my employer)

These will be the same projections that said no DEP recruitment for sometime, which then got changed in recent weeks.

£100k RHS with ability to live almost anywhere is not such a hardship.

If you're desperate to wear 4 stripes, yes there are better alternatives.

FANS, please don't get me wrong; I was not saying it was a hardship. I was simply laying out the decisions that people will have to make and therefore what is likely to happen to the seniority for various commands. I do however believe that it will no longer be a choice of waiting for a long haul command or taking that early short haul command. It will be a choice of never ever go for command, or take the first one you can no matter which fleet it is on. There will always be those that choose the long haul FO lifestyle and accept the loss of earnings, but that financial hit has got a whole lot larger and I therefore believe fewer people will choose the lifestyle.

GS - it's a very fair point you're making, but for those joining whom are under 30, the T&Cs will become very different over the next 30 years anyway.

Equally, I think a new cadet joining under 25 will probably not be line flying until retirement as the work highs and lows and challenges are different to a generation ago.

What's changed in regards to DEP recruiting other than the 12 employed on the 320 recently?

I don't think they'll have a choice. Anyway, EU FTL's will allow it.

:yuk:

The cost of living in the SE isn't getting any cheaper....

Rate rise flagged up as London house prices soar - Telegraph

:sad:

The cadets first couple of years will be v. hard going, but the days of cradle to grave flying at BA are unlikely. There's only so many years you can stomach today's joys of heathrow whether in a 320 or 380.

Everyone from Lawyers to workers at B&Q are saying the same thing.

But you won't have a choice.

The country is drowning in debt, the working population is shrinking and we're still not paying for the NHS or being forced to contribute to a pension...

Before everyone starts BA bashing, I can confidently say that working for BA still beats working at my previous outfit.

Not sure whether this is the usual BA baiting, but as an older new guy here are some reasons for joining (all been said before I'm sure).

1. The ability to pick and alter your roster even as a junior bod (no 'decade for a weekend off' in my experience).
2. Security.
3. Choice to change fleets.
4. Decent pay (certainly after a few years).
5. Decent hotels (for the most part).
6. Massive network.
7. Worldwide staff travel.
8. Very low cockpit-gradient culture (hence long-term RHS isn't a huge problem, not for me anyway as an ex-Capt).

Now, there's no doubt BA isn't the Mecca it once was (it has its downsides too) and I'm sure other airlines offer some, if not all, of the above but these were pretty good reasons for me and there are definitely no shortage of applicants when the doors open which is a pretty good indicator.

9. An airline willing to invest in its flightcrew
10. An employer not looking to take every penny it can off you - no TR, no zero hour contracts
11. Cadets and DEP selected on ability not ability to pay
12. Generally a well oiled machine for flightcrew (esp as only 2 bases)
13. PAX that are generally well behaved - but let's not debate that one
14. Demanding environment that is LHR!

Plenty of negatives especially amongst those that have not flown elsewhere in recent years!

What a lot of people fail to see in BA with respect to a large number of LH SFO's is that they have worn 4 stripes before and aren't really that fussed about which seat they sit in as the 'panacea' of a command is not a priority whereas lifestyle is.

It's difficult to go from the top of a structure where choice is king to the bottom of the LHS structure where you lose all control over your working hours again. Couple that with the nice tax man taking a large chunk of your earnings again over £100,000 and the incentive to move is lessened. This will only get worse as those pilots who are on the money purchase pension scheme don't need the last two years gross earnings as a Captain to 'top up' their NAP's/APS pensions.

However, changes to the pay system and the fixed flying pay have taken out the 'plum' trips structures and based line selection and trip selection purely on personal preference therefore opening up the entire route structure to everyone from the most senior to the most junior.

There is a growing undercurrent of feeling for removing the PP18 cap given the retirement situation and the over crew of ex-BMI captains as the cap is seen as unrealistic and unfair. However you only need to bid for any command, there is no guarantee you will get one.

The change from NAPS to BARP is more likely to increase the imperative to get into the LHS rather than decrease it. The concept of the last two years in the LHS to top up ones pension is irrelevant to those whose pension is dependent on contributions. The higher the contribution the greater the pension. The higher the salary the higher the contribution. Even junior SH captains earn more pensionable than senior RHS LH copilots. It s inevitable as BARPERs become eligible for a command more are likely to jump ASAP. Sure there will be a few that go and sit on long haul for a long time but IF people think on their pensions they are more likely to jump to the LHS sooner. The days of the anomaly whereby one could sit in the RHS for a long time and it not impacting your pension will soon be a thing of the past.

GS-Alpha, excuse my ignorance but what do you mean by an FO being frozen on pay point 18?
I'm RAF and in my last year of service so am looking closely at the potentential opportunities out there.

A technicality. FOs are frozen on PP18 unless they bid for all LHR commands.

More specifically, you are frozen on pp18 unless you consistently bid for all available Heathrow commands and you are eligible to bid. In practice BALPA have recently determined that this means you must be bidding for all LHR commands every year from pp16 onwards, and you cannot change aircraft type from pp13. (If you change aircraft you will be frozen on it for 5 years, during which time you are no longer eligible to bid for commands on other aircraft and so your pay will be frozen at pp18). The terms are a lot more restrictive than most people realise.

Hi Woolfgang,

In BA there were 24 but now 34 pay points in each rank. When you join BA you start on PP1 and move up one level each year on the anniversary of your date of joining. On the 34 PP scale each increment is worth about £1750 before tax.

On the old PP24 scale First Officers were frozen on reaching PP18 if they failed to bid for a command. This stopped people sitting in the right hand seat taking alot of money without stepping up to take some extra responsibility.

The new bid results came out yesterday so BA will now have an idea of where the gaps in the year to come will be. As always there will be vacancies on the A320 as people move up to long haul as shown by the phone calls last week. The more interesting question is whether there will be any long haul gaps.

The only successful LH bids were onto the 777, 787 and 380 so if bids off the 757 and 747 (onto those 3 types or command upgrades) exceed the drawdown of the 75 and 74 then there maybe gaps. How BA square the circle of seniority and unsuccessful bids onto the 74 and 75 and then recruiting DEPs I have no idea.

Flight deck chat suggests that there may be DEP recruitment in the spring, but that was last weeks plan.

All the best.

Hi Woolfgang, the freeze at Pay point 18 is a pay freeze. It applies if you choose to remain in the RHS beyond PP18 rather than move to the LHS - effectively meaning a move to SH in the current climate. BUT you would be a fool to think that if you were to join now the situation that exists now would still be extant in 18 years time.

Out of interest, if someone is blocked at pp18 for say 5 years, but then applies for and gains a command, would he go onto pp19 on the captain scale or pp23/24?

FLR,

He would go over to the Captains roster on his natural seniority, e.g. PP23 after 5 years frozen, NOT at PP18, the seniority moves up regardless it just means that the annual incremental payments would be frozen.

I am not sure what would happen regards to back pay, if he didn't bid thus leading to the freeze then I believe he doesn't receive any potential back pay from missed increments.

If he bid for commands he would not have been frozen but if a mistake had been made and junior pilots had been given commands before him then the difference between when his command was achievable and when he was awarded his command course would be back paid.

....looking forward to another shot at the DEP process come spring maybe? My togs have just dried off. Anyone for another dip? :p

Dya know what?! For the first time ever.... I don't think so! The money seems to be against you and so does promotion. I think I might be better off where I am! Thats quite a big change for me! I was die hard!!!

So.....

Just to clarify. If I joined 2yrs ago instead of drowning in the pool I would have been on 24pp. Joining now 34pp.

Now I'm sure it was worked out ages ago that someone joining in their 30's on 34 pay points would lose out on £200k in comparison to someone else who got in the week before and was on 24 pay points. This all over the length of career.

Now with the new predictions saying 20 years for command, does this mean that if there are no commands to bid for you are frozen on pp18 and thus this difference over the careers of the two similar aged pilots would be greater?

Make sense? Just wondering as I'm now scared of water!

No, all you have to do is bid for the commands, it doesn't matter if there are none available. But it is a little premature to be worrying about this at this stage. No-one knows what BA will look like in 18 years, it may have expanded significantly or it may no longer be with us. The changes that have happened in the last 12 years since 9/11 have been huge, why does everyone expect that nothing will change in the next 18?

I do think things will change in the next 18yrs. However I don't think it will be for the better. Lesser of two evils and all that!
Thanks for the info tho!

Flew over DXB last week thinking nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there long term.

BA is a very good job in my opinion with growth on the horizon. For those new people looking to join we do have very junior pilots flying the 777/747/787/380.

If you want a quick command try somewhere else. If you want a rewarding career in one of the worlds most iconic airlines then welcome.

:ok:

Really? "Very" junior FOs flying the 787 and A380 at BA? How junior?

We all want a career and to be able to provide for our families. DXB isn't the best but I have a better standard of living than I had in the uk. We don't all live or want to live in London or Dubai for that matter. Ba stopped being iconic in the 80's and from a passenger point of view is a far distance from being the worlds favourite airline.

Career stability, progression and income is all we look for. Sure having 4 stripes isn't everything but neither is sitting in the rhs till I retire.

As for being junior on 380, 787, 777? Friends of mine been there 5 years have just moved to these fleets. Wouldn't call that very junior especially since they decided that you only join to the fleet your rated on!

Lifestyle?

No amount of career stability, progression or income could make up for being forced to leave Blighty. Especially to work 92 hours every month in a dump like Dubai.

There are many abroad who feel that good old Blighty is a bit of a dump, too. it's personal preference.

Lifestyle options at BA could be wonderful if you get what you want and bid for, but not if you like living in the sunshine.

It's all relative. Just saying :rolleyes:

Just for the record some of us weren't forced to leave democratic republic of blighty and 780hrs in last 12 months I'll let you do the math on that give some advice on bidding technique.

I don't think anyone still thinks BA is a utopia, and it's clearly not what it was - but no airline is.

The fact remains that whenever DEP opens, there's always far more applicants than places and if you want to be based in the UK - particularly SE, I'm struggling with anywhere better or likely to be better over the next 20-30 years.

TBH BA could make it PP44 and it'll still be the best offer in the UK IMO. The opportunity to change fleets, massive route network, respect for their staff, roster bidding, reasonable job security, training/management opportunities, good pay and staff travel - these things aren't on offer at many other UK airlines. Sure you can go abroad, but a quick (er) command wouldn't be important enough to make me want to live in the desert.

There's been plenty of doom-laden predictions about LHR command times, but what about LGW. Are they likely to be in a similar 15-20 year timeframe or a bit quicker?

Since I have joined BA we have hired off the street to the 777/747/767. We now have ex midland FOs heading to the 787 and the fleet has gone relatively junior from within. The same can be said for the A380. Given we have only had the 787/380 for a few months not really much more to say.

You don't have to be senior in BA to fly long haul on any fleet. It's that simple.

Still one if the best flying jobs on earth.

That the same Midland FO's who failed BA selection and got in through the back door? :E

Regarding command times at LGW. Given that LGW is going Airbus and there will be no base freeze only a type freeze associated with LGW I expect that it will still be the place to a junior command - but it will not be significantly more junior that LHR. The downside of LGW is an upside if you live locally and like a hassle free airport to operate from. The pay cap at pp16 may move people up the road to LHR but I think the seniority gap between junior commands at the two bases will close as commands dry up and the effects of the Annual allowance on pensions for those still on NAPS starts to bite.. All in all it's a bit like looking in a cracked crystal ball, anyone's guess is good.

Meow.

Maybe BA realised their mistake and purchased his employer in order to get him...

We don't all get a smooth ride in the industry, and I'll be willing to bet there is more than a handful in Midland who failed to be creamed off by BA.