A320 or B737 ?
 

Hi All,

I am an experience pilot (ATPL, ICAO, 2400 TT), decided to locate my self to East Asia.
in order to get a f/o position, decided to aquire a type rating on a popular
airliner.
the dilemma is 737 or A320 ???
i would like your opinion on the subject considering the following:
* which type produces more vacancies now and in the near future?
* countries like China, Japan, India, are barely hiring expats (f/o positions)
correct me if i am wrong (especially regarding China?).
* i don't posses oceania/pacific passport (so Australia, New Zealand, etc' are
out of question)
* being Israeli, can't work in Muslim countries.

in numbers - there are in south east Asia:
737 - around 1350 (all models) and on order 650
A320 - around 950 (all versions) and on order more then 900

Call me old fashioned: the one that you are hired for. i.e. get a job first and then type. A type without 500 hrs is worthless in Asia unless you are a national. :ugh:

I am not expert on the balance of power between Boeing and Airbus in Asia. Your numbers seem to indicate there is nothing between them at the moment.

However, worldwide it is clear who the current front runner is for future growth of existing airframes (of course things change quickly in aviation but this is as it stands now!) It looks possible that Boeing will have to introduce a new a/c type to compete in the short haul market. Thus a 737 rating could well prove a little more restrictive in terms of future job prospects. Of course, it is still a hugely viable option, but perhaps doesn't stand you in quite as good a position as an Airbus rating.

This article may be of interest -

FT.com / Companies / Aerospace & Defence - Boeing-Airbus dogfight flares up again

I can tell you, it does not matter if you have a rating or not, it's all about that bloody 500h on type!

I have thousands on B737 and only 200 on A320. -> I am always invited for assessment if it's a B737 but never got an invitation for A320. Always same answer, we're sorry, but you do not have 500h on type. :}

1. whichever fleet will give you the best trips.
2. whichever fleet will earn you the most money.
3. very few memory items with the Airbus.
4. the 73's have small, cramped and noisy cockpits.
5. after AP engagement, do you really want a control column in front of you for the next 5 hours getting in the way of your meals and ops manual reading.

:ok:

Would not recommend ANY rating, unless you are offered a job at the same time.

All time Airbus fan, confort, technology, ergonomic and logical cockpit. However quite tricky in degraded mode, therefore flying in normal ops makes you think you can master all, but give a couple of failures, and you better know your aircraft, it can throw you a picture you may not like if you don't understand it.

Would never want to have a yoke in front of me again. Long term options are good, common cockpit with 330/340, you could get rated on another type in a week.


Dunno 737, not interested. For me it's a dinosaur. As I read once in a popular flight magazine: 737NG is like having a 1962 Ford Cortina, and fitting a Mondeo's dash board: it's still a Ford Cortina...

Loved the 727, although on got a one time ferry and a few jumpseats on it.

But again, without a job, it would be a waste, or at least a huge gamble.

After 22years rated on type I should say 737, but . . . for the moment, Boeing are dithering on new engine/new aircraft decision. Meanwhile Airbus are racking up orders for A320Neo.
If I had to spend the money (even if I don't "really" trust FBW Airbus := ) I would be forced to say Airbus makes more sense, considering also that you will be half -way, or more , to being A330/340/380 rated.

As previous posters said, 500hrs on type is the generally accepted/demanded minimum, so don't buy any rating without a conditional job offer to accompany the expenditure.

That is a mugs game, do you realise how many 737/A20 pilot without any experience on type have been fleeced these last few years ? believe me there are a fair few around.

Is 2200 hrs now known as experienced? I have 2400 - I must be super experienced! :ok:

Undermining
 

Dear Aviator,

You are 42 years of age, have 2.400 hrs of expirience, what did you do all your life? What did you fly before? Where have you been? At your age people go into the 5 digits normaly +10.000 hrs, the mad ones coming up to over 15.000 hrs.

Why do you want to pay for a Type Rating yourself? That undermines the Pilots who look for a Job to feed the Family and loved ones and supports exatly those crucks in the Industry who take all off you: First the clothes, you are naked, then your skinn, you are bare, then your meat, you loose your dignety at the end when you are a skeletton in the system. So what do you gain by paying for a Type Rating and gambling? You will always have the wrong one, EMB 170/190 is also famous and a niche Type.

I was sitting sometimes on a Table and had to select who comes to an interview when I was reading CV´s and summary´s. Usualy it works that way: People who have a recommendation from someone within the Company where selected first to prevent fakers, then if the seats where still not filled, the higher numbers where the front runners.

I see you competing with some Local Ex-Military Pilots in your aiming geographical wishes. That makes it more difficult as well. In Far East they have about 15 Years of Air-Force, Navy or Army after education so they are as well in the late 30´s early 40´s and have the same hours / age ratio like you. Now You guess..... Put on a diffrent pair of shoes and look at the credentials and be honest with the answer.

I think the money you want to spent on that is better parked in a safe investment, at least it gives you some interest rate back.

I do not want to discourage you from trying something out of the routine. The World belongs to the brave.

Fly safe and land happy

Maybe the guy started flying late - we know very little about his background! So what if he's 42 with 'only' 2400 hours! Better than 42 with 200 hours!!

I've met a lot of people like him with reasonable commercial experience but who are stuck on outdated types (Shorts 360 or Jetstream 31 for example) and see no alternative to career progression other than getting themselves a more modern jet type. Buying a type rating is definitely not something that started a few years ago - a mate of mine who is now a TRI got himself a 737 rating in 1995 having been stuck on Kingairs and old Citations for too many years.

Of course it is a risk and it may all blow up in his face but it his life and his risk to take!!

On balance I'd go for the Airbus!

Good luck!!

give me 200'000 euro and I can get you a job on the plane you want. 6 months then OUT!

who's next?

Althought I am against P2F, I had to invest in a TR to get where I needed in my career. Never paid for line training or else, but one has to consider various perspectives when talking about spending money for a type rating:

Many people would not hesitate to take a loan in order to buy a $50,000 brand new Mercedes...Guess what? Given the choice, I'd take a nice A320 type rating for half the price, and still be able to afford a decent $25,000 new car...

Investing in a type rating is not nonsense, of course as long as you can have a reasonable plan to fly it soon after. But is the gamble that different from investing 100,000 Euros for a CPL multi-IR? When you start, nobody knows if it's ever going to bear fruit.

Training has become a real cash-cow business like nothing before. More than 15 years ago, my CPL multi-IR cost me $9,600... I spent more on food and accomodation.. but to save the money, I flew a microlight, cropspraying bananas in Africa for a year... Some days it scared the !!!!! out of me. Did not have any back-up for a loan then.

I guess it is about personal goals and sense of achievement. If the guy is 42 y/o and can see through the investment and training, and more get satisfaction in what he does, why not.

I would love to enroll NTPS and do my test pilot course. But I ain't cutting my veins to find the enormous amount of money required. If I win the lottery, I'll go, just for the fun of it, and for the thrill of learning something new, even if I never fly after that.

Flex

Hence the economic crisis..!

Flex Pwr
 

"Althought I am against P2F, I had to invest in a TR to get where I needed in my career".

Now, I'm really confused.

Last week (in a Wizz thread) you were bemoaning the deteriorating terms and conditions in Bucharest in your company. Now, you make the above statement about being where you need to be in your career.

Can you see why companies like W6 can treat their pilots the way they do, especially when there's a willingness to "invest" in something that your employer (W6 - or whichever "service provider" you are forced to work through) should be doing for you.

Such willingness to "invest" is killing our careers. No benefits is now normal. Certainly no housing allowances in W6 and elsewhere. You can't have it both ways - either accept that it's difficult to get a jet job without "investing", or accept the fact that more people have followed your example and "invested", thereby cheapening our profession yet further.

Glad to hear you can afford a new car however. Perhaps things aren't as bad as you first made out?:confused:

Narrow Runway,

Although your comment is off topic, let me clarify this for you:

I maintain my comment for a very simple reason: the Wizzair story is that I took up the job already qualified, and did not wait Wizzair to give me a type rating on the Airbus.

Secondly, I joined with specific terms and conditions laid down in the contract. I see no contradiction in choosing to get out when the airline does not want to honor the contract terms, or change them without mutual agreement. This is quite the opposite: not accepting to stay with downgrading conditions is exactly the way to help the pilots conditions: all do the same and the airline in question will have to review it's package on the up side.

Thirdly, I think you have taken the car comment as first degree: I did not buy a new Mercedes, nor any car for that matter, it was given as an example how people may see an investment as an expense, or vice versa.

Lastly, I don't see what point you are trying to make. And I don't care.

Flex

Go for the Airbus and target AirAsia. With its major expansion in the next few years there will be a need for pilots in the region. Plus, the flight attendants are HOT. That would be an added bonus. FYI - pay is evidently not strong by European/ME standards. Still, pilots will be needed.

Flex
 

The point, that you don't care about is this:

1) you advocate paying for a rating, to get your career where it needs to be, whilst simultaneously bemoaning the terms and conditions of that very job being currently degraded, and;

2) the irony being that your terms and conditions are being eroded because yet more pilots are willing to undermine you by paying for a rating and accepting the fact that the package keeps getting worse. All in order to get the "lucky break".

If you can't see that on one hand you're shouting loudly about the evils of your employer lowering your package, whilst on the other hand praising the system that allows them to do so.........

........but as you've already said, you don't care.

Good luck in your upcoming change of job.

@ Iver

Did you carefully read what avieh7 wrote? It explicitly says "being Israeli, can't work in Muslim countries". Air Asia's parent body is in Malaysia; hmmm, a "Muslim" country?? Hint hint.

Good point. But won't AirAsia be located in various countries (i.e., franchise airlines)? Could he not just work in a non-Muslim country for an AirAsia affiliate carrier? What about AirAsia Viet Nam (whatever the real name is) or another non-Malaysian affiliate?

Just asking...

Ok let me make this simple, so you want waste your $$$$. You have to make a discussion where you want to be based. In US you don’t need type on type, so any jet will do. If you look in to Asia it’s the 737NG, the rest of the world is A320. Remember the transition from 737 to 777 its 3 sessions and a check.
Its seems like you have a line training set up, go for the BUS, its hot right now. Feel free PM
And don’t worry about the haters, you have enough time to make it
Good luck

I have flown all the current Boeings (except B777) and they are a superb product. However I have long been frustrated by the company appearing to loose all impetus to Airbus ... any aviation magazine will have pages of Airbus orders while Boeing are languishing in delays on what will be a very good A/C when released, and reruns of 1960's models. (again B777 excepted, which is cutting edge)

If I was a young player again I would go for Airbus, mainly for their orderbook and almost complete commonality with their larger types.

When I entered the commercial world 17 years ago type ratings were supported by a bond ... so I have never had to pay for a rating. I do however see myself as very fortunate, and that would likely not be the case were I to be entering the industry now. P2F is definitely "subtracting the Michael", but that appears the only option for people to get started .. so maybe we should cut them some slack ?

Good Luck ..

CL65Driver1234,

Don't know where you get your info from, but transition from 737 to 777 is just a little more than 3 sim sessions. :=

Perhaps you mean A320 to A330, which I could well understand.

I stand to be corrected however, in which case I look forward to my 777 command very soon ;)

Look at what dominates in your home market if you ever wish to fly there in the future.

Off topic:

Now THAT sounds like fun! :)

target asia in 5-10 years, but you will be 52.
target asia now, and they will tell you "no expat".

come back to EU with no money and no job, and start towork as a waitress in a bar at 1000 euro/month.

what do you think you are???if it was so easy, everybody would buy a 320 rating and fly in asia!

you see guys, all these middle age men want play the pilot, and have no idea, it s all "me me me", ...they all think with a type rating, airlines will employ them, with or without line hours.

another middle age schmuck I know bought 500h in a EU airline,what a moron, the guy all excited: "OH i hope they hire me with my 500 hours"... the guy had to leave his place for another P2F punk! now he is jobless!!!
can not belive the OP is 42....

dont believe the crap here, most guys who tell you to go for it, are still jobless, but give advice to everybody else, when they are themselves a total failure!!!

it s patetic!:=

737 vs A320
 

The A320 rating will give you access to every airline operating the 318/319/320/321. If you go the boeing route, you will still have to choose between NG and classic, as there is still a fair amount of those flying in SE Asia.

The points made in other threads about your low hours to age ratio and the 500 hours on type have some validity, however I can assure you first hand there are airlines recruiting type rated people with similar profile to yours with no hours on type.

Your plan could be a solution to a quick career fix, the region is booming, and you could be in command of a new shiny jet within no time.

At the end of the day, it is down to you having the confidence to invest in a type rating. I know I did it a few years back and it paid of.

tell me which one, punk!

The microlight was sure a lot of fun, and I felt on top of the world as a first flying job (paid one, I mean). But this business is scary and microlights are underpowered, sluggish on the controls, and far from reliable with Rotax 582 engines (2 stroke).

It was an investment like any other, I had a decent salary, and could afford an FAA training for CPL Multi IR within a year. I made much less money a year later flying a BN2 Islander in the Congo...

There is a difference between an investment and flying for a sandwich, but some Narrow...Minded people have a hard time seeing it. Maybe they would care to explain what they were doing in a low cost if not to get the experience at the expense of better conditions?

If I had to do it again, I'd go fly microlights to fund my flight training again. Thank to this opportunity, I started with zero debt, so moving onto the next job was made a bit smoother I guess.

B737 gets you Indonesia IF you can work there as an Israeli. Also some Chinese airlines such as Xiamen and Shenzhen.

A320 is India, Singapore, Vietnam, China, Malaysia, Macau, Hong Kong, Philippines.

Probably leans more towards the Airbus in this part of the world especially if you have to cross Indonesia off your list.

You are basing what you want to fly on how many orders it has ?




Seriously, this is a factor for you, are you a Pilot or a Salesman ?

Sounds sensible to me. I would chose the aircraft which is selling more based on the obvious fact that there are more opportunities for work!

Yeah i would back exactly what Dan the man said :ok:

Flex
 

Flex,

I now understand that you mustn't be able to read too well....

....In the Wizz thread, I commented that I was under threat of redundancy at Virgin and that is why I joined Wizz.

Additionally, at the same time, Wizz gave me a DEC, based on experience - so I don't think I contributed to undermining any terms and conditions, especially given that I was type rated with 2000+ on type in my logbook, plus many other hours on Boeings and Airbuses.

Would I have joined as an FO? NO!! Would I have paid for a rating in order to join in either seat? NO!!

Anyway, back to topic:

If someone must pay for a rating, I'd go A320......even though I would never do it!!

You could always get an A320 type rating, work somewhere in Europe and commute back to TLV on your days off.

בהצלחה

A320 every day of the week! Just look at the Paris Air Show orders and it's not difficult to see which aircraft will be dominating the short haul market in the not too distant future.

Boeing has responded with new re-engined 737 (CFM Leap X).

I think Bombardier C Series orders will pick up once she flys - all new design v old 737 and A320s by then. Shame Boeing and Airbus have gone down the iterative change route. No more Concorde/S Shuttle but we have the re-engined 1960s designs!

I know where you are coming from, but having had their fingers burned (read incinerated ! ) with the 787/ Dreamliner, Boeing were thinking that medium term, & finally, with a little more fuel efficiency , the FLUF is fine, so go for the cheap option(as indeed Airbus have done finally? with their similar "solution") Why not ? nobody has enough spare cash to re-invent the wheel at the moment.


Forgot to say, for 737/320 family rated guys, rejoice! it wil be :D:D same airframe /same rating = less opportunity to be shafted by an accountant :D

I assume you have Master degree in aeronautical aviation and know how to recover from inverted spin etc. otherwise it's gonna be waste of money :rolleyes:
Airbus getting to grips is not enough at that level ;)

n77, nice one!

I am not sure a master's degree would be of much help in that very moment, more so the practice and the experience learned from people with more grey hair...I have done the inverted spin once in an aerobatics glider (ASH25 if I recall), with the help of the instructor...still trying to figure out how it all happened...:confused:

Anyway the NTPS course is very much about theory, lasts about a year, brings inside understanding. Testing is not about spinning in all directions, unless you be a test pilot for aerobatics.
I doubt any airliner would be doing inverted spins as part of their certification programmes..:p

Sorry, off topic...

Flex