BA vs. Virgin pay
 

Curious as to know the difference between comparable seat positions at BA vs. Virgin Atlantic in the B-747. I can't seem to find a pay scale break down that is similar to the payscales posted for the US carriers.

BA pilots do 900 hours, VS rather less, (750?) so comparisons must take that into account?

search pilot jobs network, they are on there

Can't really do a straight comparison of hours....the crews have been doing a lot more than 750 hours for a good while now as positioning around the network is prevalent and attracts no credit towards the annual hours total.

Virgin atlantic
 

VIRGIN ATLANTIC ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
* At least 2500 - 3000 hours total time
* Commercial candidates should have a minimum of 1500 hours commercial jet time (BAe 146 or above)
* UK issue JAA ATPL
* MCC qualified
* Right of abode in the EU

Hi all,
I tick all of the boxes above 4000 total 3500 320BUS,but i was wondering can anyone shed any light on the "uk issue ATPL" my ATPL is issued by the irish aviation authority,does this mean in order to meet virgins requirments i will have to re-sit my ATPL exams to have them UK issued or does it mean I have to simply Transfer my current IAA ATPL to become a CAA atpl,
Anyone who has gone throught this process if you could shed some light would be greatly appreciated,

All you need to do is get it transfered to a caa one long as you did atpl exams for your Irish atpl then it's just the usual paperwork and about a week to get caa to issue you atpl and also around 280 pounds.

This particular requirement (or the payment) may be discriminitive under EU laws.

Is there any chance of recruitment at VA in the next 5 years??

I left VS last year. Voluntary redundancy. I couldn't see a future as an FO. I was 100 up from the bottom, 3 years in and looking at another 12 years to Command.

With BA/AA tie up, VS are very exposed.

They will recruit, but don't expect anything other than 15 years to a Command course.

Stan's spot on.

15 years is a long time to spend being ignored!

Mate of mine took redundancy from Virgin - did 9 years and was looking at a further 9 for any sniff of a command.

If I was under 25 I'd consider it, but like Stan mentioned - as an airline they are very exposed. BA will survive at the expense of T & C's for crew and their whole European operation. As a result, I think this will affect Virgin's growth potential and ultimately career progression . . .

Stanstead - is command the be all and end all? Ok it is a long time to wait but the quality of life and the pay as an FO in Virgin after that time would surely be substantial?
Would the pay not be approaching the equivalent of an easyJet captain?
I am often under the impression that people chase the left hand seat to the detriment of all other considerations. LHS shorthaul low cost may pay more in the short term but the work is very tough and you miss out on seeing the world!
Just my thought!:ok:

Not if the ezy CP is based in MXP,CDG,ORY,MAD...

well out of interest i'm a year 7 F/O at VS and i'm not sure i agree that a 9 year F/O would have another 9 years to command.. would not like to put a time scale on it as i don't have my crystal ball with me:} but think 9/10 years is a bit excessive to me...

Yes the economic slow down has had a major affect on expansion/commands but with the A330 turning up (not sure on replacement/expansion), the B747-400 leases extended and then eventually the B787/A380 (if it arrives) on the order books then things are very slowly turning around...

Now yes i could be looking through rose tinted glasses but once the demoted skippers get back in the LHS and the chaps that were made redundant return the the business i suspect Virgin being Virgin will expand like they did 5/6 years ago as we come out of the recession and return to profitability...

just my own thoughts and opinions :ok:

Well, I'm just going on what he passed on to me!

I believe a Virgin FO in salary terms sits in between a Skipper salary and a SFO salary at easyJet (unless they're CDG, MXP or MAD based!!)

Hi Akrapovicyeah,

yeah, not sure what EZY T&C are but suspect your not far off

cheers

Where did you find this?How can anyone apply?

Thank you very much :ok:

Autobrake Low

I am a low cost Captain now, and my lifestyle and fatigue levels are far better now than when I worked for VS.

I was permanently jet lagged.

And 15 years is realistic. No matter what you may think, there are 500 FO's ahead of any new joiners. All waiting.

If a lifestyle of being away from home, with crews who you never see in a hotel you are visiting for the 3rd time in a month is your kind of lifestyle, then I strongly recommend that you sign up.

For me, it wasn't. I took my Voluntary severance and ran.

I enjoy my Command - I'd waited 11 years for it.

So Stansdead, when you said you were leaving Virgin to do your bit and help save jobs further down the list that wasn't strictly true? You've since been asking around pprune about opportunities to escape your new low cost job, what gives?

For those looking to apply, Virgin are NOT recruiting and I suspect are unlikely to for some time.

There are Demoted Captains as well as Pilots on reduced hours, some more who have agreed to go Part time as well as a considerable number who have taken long sabbaticals. All of this would have to be undone with everyone offered the chance to return to full time work if they wish. Once that's done, the smaller number who were made compulsorily redundant and those who took Voluntary severance would be invited back. All this before any external recruitment.

The lifestyle picture that Stansdead paints is reasonably accurate in fairness though.

In short, don't get your hopes up. Time to command, as Fast Cruiser says, it's anyones guess. If time to command is critical to you then Virgin Atlantic is possibly not the place for you.

Eyes off the ball.

I did my bit by taking a sabbatical. I then got offered VSS which I took.

I enjoy my low cost Command. It's different to VS, and yes, I'd like to get nearer home, or use my Command to move to the Middle East - what's wrong with that?

I didn't leave VS to stand still!! I took an opportunity for Command and lots of others wish they had. Combine that with a payoff, and it has been a good bit if business for me. The VSS protected my family financially if my current employer had, or does fail. I was so far from promotion and so relatively near the chopline that my actions were, and are, totally justified.

Anyway, I've not said VS is bad. It's just not everyone cup of tea. I have days when I miss it, but on the whole there's more opportunities for Current Captains than FO's. And that won't change. It's a good investment.

I'd rather you didn't insinuate that I wasn't doing my bit when the chips were down last year. You always look after number 1, but I did at least save another job by my sabbatical and ultimately redundancy. To suggest I was doing it solely for other people, is frankly, naive. It suited me to help. I'm glad I did, because i had a good opportunity. And it kept someone else employed.

I look forward to a phone call being asked back. I didn't expect that. But, it's unlikely I will return for the reasons given above.

I think at the moment any major airline in the UK is going to experience large periods of time before command - BA, Virgin, Thomson, Thomas Cook are all around the 10-15 years mark. I would suspect that Easyjet will soon experience longer time frames as their aircraft orders slow up.

I would take quality of life over time to command, providing it was going to come eventually.

Just my opinion.

[QUOTE]I would suspect that Easyjet will soon experience longer time frames as their aircraft orders slow up./QUOTE]

It's already happening . . . . !

The whole airline industry is a game of 'Snakes and Ladders'. You think you are progressing well up the board and before you know it you throw a '4' and are down a big snake. Similarly you can throw a '2' and go up a big ladder. You just do not know. A few years ago, joining Virgin Atlantic was the ultimate privelege for an airline pilot - a genuine mark of prestige. I would suggest that is no longer the case and many people see the difficulties round the corner and a very uncertain future at Virgin. None of us know what the next throw of the dice will bring within the airline industry and there are very bright futures out there right now.

Norman, that`s not a bad analogy!
I`ve been playing the game for more years than I care to think.
You shouldnt play if you dont accept the rules of the game.
However, it`s alright provided some b:mad:d does`nt swap the fair dice for his loaded ones when your not looking!!
:cool:

"Now yes i could be looking through rose tinted glasses but once the demoted skippers get back in the LHS and the chaps that were made redundant return the the business i suspect Virgin being Virgin will expand like they did 5/6 years ago as we come out of the recession and return to profitability..."

Sounds familiar. I remember that when I left Virgin in 2002 after their first experience of having to make pilots redundant there was plenty of talk like that. But Virgin had expanded too fast for their market and caught a cold. Did they learn? No, they didn't and it happened again.

I was about the last to join Virgin before 9/11. I took voluntary redundancy, but my joining mate stayed and was perhaps about 50 to 60 off a command when the latest round happened. Now he will be looking at a very long time. So 15 years may be correct, but is optimistic in my view.

That's because I reckon they have currently (re)found their correct size for their market and business model, and won't expand much more above their current size.

Autobrake low - how much do you think an easyJet (UK) Captain earns?

Always thought VS would be a decent place to work but I got caught on the loco snake! I take it the 330's, which I believe arrive next year, will be replacements not additions. Which routes will they be used on?

Stan and NSF are both on the "numbers" to quote EKG
 

Folks,

What Stan and NSF have both said is a carbon copy of my experience in VS also.

The "lifestyle" portrayed for those on the outside is a different one from the one experienced by those of us on the inside. The Frank Abagnale JR image of aviation is dead and buried for LH IMHO,fundamentally the objective of VS is to make money for the share holders. EG Fly to NY(the city that never sleeps) and you hop on the bus that takes you to your hotel which happens to be in New Brunswick,NJ. an hour south of EWR,oooooozing glamour and lots of delsey dining,didnt someone mention see the world :ugh: if you have a hard-on for hotel rooms this is the gig for you to get into. I felt more like a professional time-killer down-route.I couldnt wait for those wheels to touch down again at LHR so I could get home. Its not all doom and gloom I did have a "few" good trips but they were very few and far between.

In my 2yrs at VS before I took sabbatical/VR, I had lost all interest in Aviation,flying a dead a/c (being phased out) and an unsure inordinate amount of time to CMD which I had for 2 1/2yrs on a 37 before I joined was enough for me to jump at unpaid leave/VR.

Unfortunately VS is not the prestigeous holy grail of aviation I thaught it was going to be,but you gotta try it for yourself,am glad I did but I am also glad I am back LHS SH less fatigued at home with Mrs Crilly, Jack and Dougal. :ok:

To echo Stans sentiments it wasnt my cuppa tea either.

Will i go back,never say never is what I have learned from aviation so far in my 12yrs.

Best of luck to wanabees applying,unfortunately I do think it will take a while for the external doors to open again,just my opinion thats all.

I'm not the only one who believed that VS were an aspiration for many commercial pilots. In the end, from the first hand stories found here and from others I have heard recently, VS may not be the cat's pyjamas so to speak? They exist in a very tough market which will only get more difficult with a BA/AA monoply at LHR. Therefore can you see any real boom in growth, especially when it comes to western routes? The 10 A330s appear to be replacement aircraft, possibly taking the place of the older A343s / 744s? God knows what is happening with the 787 order (15 aircraft) and what will become of the A380, however I would expect to see the remainder of the 747 fleet will head out to Arizona as a result. May even be the case that a few A346 may join them?

VS seemed to be billed as a lifestyle airline, especially if you were Airbus crew from what I remember. Maybe they still are and I'm sure it still floats a few boats? Like Ted says, all you can do is try it (if you get the chance). Seems enjoying hotel interiors and not being too focused on reaching the LHS is a bit of a prerequisite?

I knocked it on the head 18 months ago, just prior to the latest downturn. Reasons? partly the endless wait for command which at my age I was unlikely to ever see, but mainly the aggravation of commuting from the frozen North to LHR/LGW several times a month. If you are considering it then think long and hard. It is exhausting, difficult and expensive. Longhaul is tough enough on the human body without 5 or 6 hours of travelling each side of a flight. Either live close to your base or choose another lifestyle.

Overall? I enjoyed the first 2 or 3 years, was indifferent to the next couple and had had enough by the end. Glad I did it, saw some nice places, flew the 744 and discovered that there is more to life than the size of your equipment. I'm glad I did it and equally glad that I no longer do.

All the best to my former colleagues.:ok:

If all you want is a command then Virgin may not be the place. I left one of the big loco:s with a command around the corner 4 years ago and I have absolutely no regrets. My lifestyle is much,much better, more days off and I have a great time downroute. I guess it depends on fleet and how you bid for trips. In my opinion, Virgin is a great place to work-even as a commuter

just wondering what happened in Virgin in tems of redundancies and demotions. Last I heard there was going to be a large number of pilots affected but been hearing since that everyone was ok in the end, can anyone comment?
bb

The swedish virgin,

The weak pound sounds like a blessing to UK pilots. If it makes the pay of UK airlines look relatively poor then the flood of european pilots looking to take British pilot jobs should diminish. There are many unemployed yet well qualified british pilots who live in the UK who would be delighted to work for Virgin with its present T & Cs. They would probably also then live in the UK and pay UK tax. That is the benefit of not being in the euro, in that we (the UK) can devalue the pound to become relatively more competative. Imports become more expensive but if a resource can then be purchased locally (i.e. pilots) then there is no need to pay the increased cost of the import (the foreign pilot).

This is deliberately provocative but I hope it makes the point and provokes some discussion.

Regards

Swedes out Swedes out Swedes out..... British jobs for British workers!!!

What a load of nonsense.

On the contrary to what has been said, I have a friend who has been an FO at Virgin for 8 years, he doesn't have a sniff of command, but he's having the time of his life, and the lifestyle suits him down to the ground....lucky bugger is mainly flying caribbean routes at the moment....He doesn't have a family to support so I guess that changes your view on things, but I think this is still the dream job for most UK pilot.

Definitely for me anyway.

The Swedish Virgin.

I certainly agree that the country should stop spending but I didn't for one moment say that we should close our borders or have a British jobs for British workers policy. That would be mad.

What I was trying to say was that as the pound depreciates against the euro it is only those who live in euro zone countries that feel that they are suffering a pay cut. Those who are paid in pounds and spend in pounds will feel no effect. If the pound continues to fall against the euro then there will come a point when those living in the euro zone will feel that the pay is not sufficient remuneration for the job. If there was a european shortage of pilots then UK based companies would have to raise wages to attract pilots from the euro zone.

At the moment though there is a large surplus of well qualified pilots in the eurozone and UK. Therefore if the pound continues to fall it may become unattractive to work for a British company if you live in europe but has no material effect on those living in the UK.

No one was advocating a pay cut but if you work for a company that pays wages in one currency but chose to live in a country that uses another then you have to expect currency fluctuations to be a part of the deal. I suspect those who get paid in euros but live in the UK are not to unhappy.

Some you win. Some you lose.

Regards

No guts no glory
 

I'm with Swedish Virgin on this one, although I don't work for VS.

I also left the Orange nightmare a few years ago to fly long haul for a European based company and (despite jet lag etc) my social and professional life have improved 100%, not to mention my health! I have 10x more energy than when flying LoCost and I'm enjoying the various destinations.

A lot really depends on your personality and social background though. Some people like Capt Ted Crilly sit all day in a hotel room, starring at the seniority list and counting the people in front of them in order to get that "holy" Command, whilst being frustrated to be away from friends and family. In that case LH is nothing for you. Others (like myself) have a quick look on the internet for fun things to do and go out and enjoy themselves, whilst still having a decent social life when at home.

No doubt that the 80's LH lifestyle (one week Rio) is no longer there, but for me LH still beats SH hands down. BTW, these *cough* quick upgrades with SH LoCost come at a price, just have a look at all those numerous threads on PPRuNe about easyJet and how they (mis)treat their employees and cadets... Absolutely a disgrace! :yuk:

p.s. Another lesson from my 4 years at sleazyJet: NEVER again do I want to work for a UK airline! They sure know how to take the fun away from flying and how to mistreat employees! :=

I have to agree, I also used to work for Easy, it was good fun and great experience but just over 5 years was enough for me.
I too work for a longhaul operation now and I feel much less tired and get lots of quality time off at home.
Sure the downside is that I am away from home a few nights a month but was is the point of being at home every night feeling like a zomby?

I remember a fellow colleague of mine decided to jack the LoCo thing in when his 4 year old boy one evening said to him: "Daddy why to you go to bed before me every night?"...Says it all really!

Just curious! Anyone know how many capt's moved left to right in the the last Virgin shake-up?

Can VS fleet type contribute to faster burn out?
 

I've heard from many pilots that long-haul flying can easily contribute to burn out and fatigue (for some people more than others). For those VS pilots who do burn out, which fleet type likely contributes to that burn out faster? Airbus offers more route variety but longer flights. I've also heard some 400 drivers say they got bored with the routes (even the sunny Caribbean) quickly.

Any trends in terms of pilot departures from VS or thoughts based on personal experience?

Gee Ivor you get around. One minute you are advocating the demise of Aer Lingus into the arms of Michael O'Leary and then here you are deeply concerned about the potential jetlag on each fleet at Virgin. Come on isn't it past your bedtime? Mummy will be cross if you don't get up on time tomorrow.