Would you really put 200 hr. cadets into the RHS of a 747/787/A330 on two crew long haul operations?

Cruise pilot MPL on the A330 and finance available via Virgin Money?

Followed by 90 sectors of line training so I have been told by those running the scheme, as well as regular sim sessions for handling skills

ESQU
 

Cruise only co-pilots are not a concept used by most UK Carriers. Applies mainly to Asian airlines who use inexperienced 2nd. officer Co -pilots for augmented crew long range sectors. Also QF I believe have S/O's on all long haul. BA and Virgin for instance only use fully qualified P2 with unrestricted Type Ratings on all flights, and only use extra crew when required by FTLs. (Cruise co-pilots will only be allowed in RH seat in cruise with no take off and landings allowed, presumably)
Again, Virgin have very few augmented crew sectors needing your MPL criuise Pilots. Putting them on 2 crew sectors for the 90 sectors u/s with associated hotel cost etc. and why bother when you are inundated with experienced applicants for jobs?

"Rumour alert"

Richard Branson has sold some (could be all?) of his stake in VS to Delta.

"Rumour alert end"

If true begs the question how long until the VS brand is no more?

Or, maybe virgin plan to actually fund the entire cadet scheme properly and are doing what all the decent airlines should be doing.
No reason why an MPL can't go P2 after suitable line training.
100hrs or 250hrs, to anybody from a military background it all seems far too little anyway, and after 10 yrs, does anybody think there will be one jot of difference?
Bush flying or teaching etc, that experience will stick. CPL cadet or MPL who cares?

Ah let's hope there is still a future for non type rated, experienced pilots.

It's a great opportunity, and sure Virgin and CTC have worked out the fine details, but I do remember the only way to actually improve ones landing and gain experience, was to sit hammering take offs and landing on multiple sector days.

But it has been done else where in the world, so hope it works out!
Will be interesting to see the deal.

Unless these guys will do the landings in the actuall aircraft after sim training, they will have to start as cruise relief co-pilots untill reaching 500 multi crew hours to be able to do the landings in the sim.

Yep fully fledged base trained in a real aeroplane First Officers. Fully funded by the the company with 9 year bond and slightly reduced pay until pay point 9 to cover costs then non cadet pay as far as I am aware although might be slightly wrong, but in principle correct.

Sounds like a very old school fully sponsored scheme which should be applauded in my opinion.

The new cadets will be made to feel very welcome because that is what we do internally with any new joiner regardless of background.

The scheme is very small in the big scheme of things and there will always be opportunities for experienced pilots. Not dissimilar to BA in that respect.

The bottom line is cadets recruited on ability and not ability to pay. Gets my vote.

All the best

Its now being reported on the BBC's website.

BBC News - Virgin Atlantic trains no-experience pilots in Southampton and Phoenix

regards

Isn't it an easy jet or ryanair scheme through the backdoor ?
 

There are large numbers of Brits & Europeans who would probably leap at the chance to work for VS and have thousands of hours but perhaps not an Airbus or Boeing rating. This scheme is simply cheap F/O labour with hardly any recruiting/type rating/training costs for VS. Wake up and smell the coffee. Sure perhaps its a great idea for the 19/20 year old with mum & dad bankrolling the equity in the house as security. I'd be amazed if VS are providing all the loan security for all of the cadets. VS are in the red, need hard cash, have binned the Little Red scheme and have been sold the promise of gold by CTC with the MPL scheme. There are many many experienced pilots available from various regional airlines across Europe as well as guys who have had to take work in the ME. Its very simply cheap labour for VS for 9 years, rather than an investment in experience. :}

"Cheap labour"

Do you have any idea how much more expensive it is to type rate and bang out circuits it is to hire a qualified guy?
Whatever it is, and I'm with 4engines, it isn't cheap

As it happens Tourist, I know quite well how much it costs. The direction VS has taken, however much spin/media BS and fluffing by Ctc - it will be cheaper/less cost labour than hiring a direct entry experienced Airbus/Boeing or even Ntr several thousand hour chap or girl off the street. Is there any point in defending or supporting the idea that an experienced pilot could be cost beneficial to an international carrier these days when there is a glut of 150hour heroes ?:sad:

CTC's website had crashed at the time of typing this post, but I'm assuming like the BA scheme, anyone with greater than 85 flying hours are excluded from applying? :ugh:

Definitely not the case with the BA scheme, many guys/girls started with a lot more than 85 hours.

I see this link on VAA careers website, but the link to CTC was down.

Virgin Atlantic Future Flyers Programme ? Pilot Training

But if you have a ICAO CPL and not an EASA/JAA CPL (and no EASA written exams taken), is that still a barrier?

If that is the case, that is hugely disappointing for the guys/gals who have got their license in the past 5 years, but are stuck in the 200-300 hour zone, due to not being experienced or type rated for an airline or being "green" enough for a cadet program.

What a catch 22!

:ugh:

Virgin pilots in it for the long haul
 

This heading of an article in today's Daily Telegraph creates a few questions. GM Flight Ops is quoted as saying ' ......will enjoy an opportunity like no other, as the only trainee pilots in Europe to fly straight on to long haul aircraft once qualified.

Second Officer on long-haul is a common entry-level job, is it not?

NO NO NO. You are all missing the point.


David Kistruck, Virgin's flight operations general manager, said: "Our people have always been at the heart of Virgin Atlantic and we're delighted to offer this opportunity to a whole new generation of flyers.
"They'll be part of the Virgin family from day one and will enjoy an opportunity like no other, as the only trainee pilots in Europe to fly straight on to long-haul aircraft once qualified."


The would-be pilots will be "part of the Virgin family from day one", with the future flyers programme being run in partnership with pilot training company CTC Aviation.


This all smacks of a " Family of love " moment. When these new family members join they will become willing victims of Virgins Flirty Fishing culture and be well and truly :mad:.

The BBC report states that the new scheme will place the cadets on the a330.....
This may well go towards explaining why the people in the Airbus holdpool have been pushed back yet again to an estimated 2016! That'll be about 18months from now hmmmm about the time the newly announced course takes ;)

So is it safe to say this cadet scheme is curtains for those in the holding pool?

Well RIP virgin as a career path from now on! Seriously when are pilots who have worked hard to establish careers going to get a break!!!!

Shame on you Branson!!

Hmm, see this link: http://www.ctcwings.com/uploads/vaa/...inAtlantic.pdf

There is no mention of hours/experience restrictions from this CTC PDF:

minimum requirements
� Be at least 17 years of age on date of application
(18 to commence training)
� Have the unrestricted right to live and work in the UK
� Hold a minimum of 5 GCSEs (or equivalent) Grade C or
above, including maths, science and English language
� Be able to demonstrate that you have successfully completed
secondary or high school education (or equivalent)
� Be fluent in English (verbal and written)
� Produce a current CRC (Criminal Record Check) basic disclosure
certificate before training can commence
� Minimum height 5’ 2” (157cm), maximum height 6’ 5” (196cm)
� Be able to obtain an EASA Class 1 medical without restrictions

Jensen.

Ok, explain it to me then.

How is it cheaper for virgin to pay for the Full licence training (approx £100K+), the type rating (£40K?) the circuits (£???K) and let's say 90 sectors with a training captain plus an FO for I'm guessing quite a few, plus then have a young chap/chappess who will stay forever and end up on top whack pay scale for years and will only have reduced pay for a few years rather than an old fully trained bloke who will,start on similar pay and retire on a much lower pay scale.

Cadets obviously fit the bill to supply something that virgin wants(I'm guessing that they want the ability to mould a clean sheet plus the ability to select for ability rather than wallet size), but cheap they are not.
It may just be that they are not getting the quality they need from the open market.
I have had a couple of recruiters for major airlines tell me that there are huge numbers of Pilots with frozen ATPLs in the UK who are basically unemployable. It's is possible to get the licence without being good enough to do the job, you just need to have enough money to throw at repeated attempts.

You have effectively answered your own questions. Cadets will be on reduced salary so in reality paying for their own training. VA gets to write off vat and tax of training costs upfront. Net result is they get 50 cadets that sing from the Virgin hymn sheet from day 1.

Every airline thinks that their sops and standards are the best. It's the nature of the industry. Moulding young impressionable wannabes from day 1 will endear them to stay. They won't be able to afford to jump ship to nasty big cousin BA as they are entrapped in a huge bond - we'll not unless VA goes under....

Top of scale salaries are for another day. Airline accountants don't think more than a few years ahead. The reality is that in 9 years time when they are off bond VA just like my own airline will no doubt have a different salary scale.

Aren't there plenty of Brit A330 pilots from the Gulf (EK, QR and the unmentionable airline) also looking to return to Mother England? Wouldn't it be cheaper to.....

Any idea how many cadets they want to employ?

Iver,
I'm sure you're right about pilots wanting to return, but it was explained to us that this is driven by the retirement statistics and hiring more middle aged'ish' pilots would compound the problem. The numbers we were quoted indicated is is not a cheap option for VS..quite the reverse in fact. I will be interested to see how the new pilots manage the frequency of the landings, but I imagine this has been addressed (extra sims perhaps). Interesting times!

With this cadet scheme is it the end for the guys in the hold pool?

It may just be that they are not getting the quality they need from the open market.
I have had a couple of recruiters for major airlines tell me that there are huge numbers of Pilots with frozen ATPLs in the UK who are basically unemployable. It's is possible to get the licence without being good enough to do the job, you just need to have enough money to throw at repeated attempts.

What :mad:. First, there is loads of quality out there. If you really think you are so much better than all the others out there trying to get a job, try it. Second…. the recruiters are not saying that because of a perception of quality, it is because of schemes like MPL mean there are no jobs for these guys. Again, nothing to do with quality.

Thank you for your comments. I understand that this can me an emotive subject but I can assure you that this is not pilots on the cheap as Virgin are going to invest in their development with us.


A lot of work has gone on over the last 18 months to be at a stage to launch and I am very excited and proud to be part of it.


To just put minds at rest about future DEP recruitment please find below 2 points:




1/ We envisage future recruitment will continue to include significant numbers of experienced pilots via our existing 3,000 hr application routes. With almost half of our pilot workforce expected to retire within the next 15 years, there will be opportunity via both the cadet route and via the conventional experienced pilot recruitment route, and we’re also looking in the longer-term to offer an intermediate programme between the two.



2/ First pilots from the Future Pilot programme are expected to commence line flying with us in 2017. We have recently updated the 10 candidates in our pilot hold pool that we do not expect to undertake recruitment in 2015 (although there will be some internal command promotions) as a result of the change in mix of our route network between flights requiring two and three pilot complements. However, we expect that we will be recruiting in early 2016 – ahead of the first pilots from our Future Pilot programme arriving – and will afford priority at that time to those candidates currently in our hold pool. It’s also likely that we’ll invite further external applications from pilots meeting our criteria of 3,000 hrs including 1,000 hrs on a commercial jet transport in excess of 15 tonnes MTOW


Thank you


Nathan
Training Standards Manager
Virgin Atlantic

JuxofMarlow,

Well said. Another blow to the thousands of heavy turboprop pilots looking to move onto jets and of course the already rated jet pilots looking to come back to the UK. The rungs in the ladder are well and truly frozen for all and forever! I will be stuck in GA flying light turboprops it seems. :{

Can't find talent in the current pool of fATPL's; my ass. I know loads of genuinely good guys/gals and they are solid aviators looking for a break.

The only winners here are CTC and of course Virgin by virtue of the reduced vat bills and offset to profits by deducting training costs.

I never imagined this rot would set into VA. Gonna be interesting swapping life experience stories in the cruise between the old herc skippa and the 20 year old bruv; innit!

Isn't this just another pay £109000 to CTC scheme?

I know a couple of guys in the current 'pool'. They have little faith in being offered anything now and are looking at other things. There were only supposed to be 10 left anyway. I guess by the time 2016 arrives that 10 will be down to a couple.

This is truly heartbreaking news for the flying industry. I am devastated that Virgin have sunk so low.

It is massively insulting to suggest this has been bought about by a lack of quality in the market place, Virgin could open recruitment tomorrow and receive thousands of applications the vast majority of which will be highly trained skilled aviators. lets face it the vast majority of F/Os flying round in the UK and the ME have been trained by CTC or Oxford and would give their right ball for a shoot at Virgin.

I am sick to death of people justifying these schemes by suggesting the new CTC cadets are some how better than the old ones. This is a cost saving exercise and nothing else, people can say what they want but these cadets are taking jobs from experienced guys by under cutting them on wages. I wonder how the TUC would react if transport for London started doing the same on the Tube????

And I have not read the advert so correct me if I am wrong, but has Virgin actually said they will be funding the training? I would expect a cheque for 100 grand will be needed in order to apply?!

I have said it before and I will say it again, the market place is saturated with Pilots and anything that encourages more people in to this profession should be avoided at all costs otherwise we will all end paying the price!

I know this is all very selfish of me and yes I am only concerned with protecting my job and pay but please understand this profession is how I feed my family and put a roof over their heads, it's not a hobby or an aspiration, it is my career and I don't want to lose it. I am too old and invested to do anything else.

How would you suggest that "these cadets" find a way into this industry? It is not their intention to undercut other pilots but they know just as you know, it is their only way in.

I'm not fully in the know, so forgive this question but, why are there so many experienced commercial airline pilots out of work?

Yes, it is extremely selfish of you. So because you have found a career that you enjoy, that puts a roof over your family's head etc. others can't have aspirations to have a similar career?

Sorry guys but some of you need to calm down..

We are talking about ONLY 12 cadet vacancies...

Virgin are STILL recruiting experienced pilots and also now that the cadets will need base training it also opens up applications to ex mil fast jet guys who are currently not elligible for ZFT..

just my own 2 dollars worth!

Monarch580
 

You must be joking. Or very stupid.

If you do not know why there are so many unemployed pilots or UK pilots forced to work overseas and desperate to return home then words fail me. Just google airline failures. And Monarch580, what about Monarch. Not exactly recruiting are they.

Enzo999 is not being selfish. He presumably has children to feed and a mortgage to cover. He, like most of us with our eyes open, can see what happens when you flood the market with cheap resource. The kids are happy today because they only have to pay token rent to mummy and daddy and buy an iPhone 6. Do you think this march downwards in terms and conditions will stop here? In five years when these kids are experienced but still cheap, how are they going to feel when they cannot progress either financially or professionally because even cheaper still kids are taking their positions. Don't say it won't happen because it is today and will tomorrow.

You talk as if "these cadets" have a heaven sent right to get into the job. They don't, anymore than people in the job have a right either.

You ask how they should get into the industry? Well here's a thought, how about sucking it up buttercup, graft and work your way up. Oh too late. That question should've been asked years ago, and guess what?! You cant do that now.

Back when pprune was full of sensible advice to the odd (back then) idiot who wanted to get a big loan and join this new fangled airline placement scheme. "no!" said everyone, work hard, save up, do it in modules and get a turboprop job and do it the hard way, it'll pay off. It went wrong when the first person turned their cheek on the hard way and signed up to the short cut. No turning back now. Damn mess of this industry in the UK has been caused by CTC and the impatience of trainee pilots with egos and self righteousness bigger than Jupiter. Oh well, impatience and access to credit were always the undoing of society.