Yup, above assessments of the company are correct. The rosters are actually pretty good compared to a junior BA 747 FO. The company seems to be on the mend; I'm not particularly fussed if it does end up as a "Virgin Atlanta" as long the balance sheet is sound, the T&Cs continue and we keep getting paid. Yes there are a few bits being eroded here and there but the company has needed the application of some hard-nosed business sense for a while.

Not entirely sure what the "shoddy pay" comment is about tho. From someone with a slender grasp on reality I suspect.

My thanks to the current Virgin guys posting info on here (without any bitterness or nonsense that comes from rival pilots/staff from outside airlines!), it helps us hoping to join/start with the company.

As to the "a few bits being eroded", " paid holidays are over", "not sure it will be the longhaul lifestyle many of us want"...
A couple of ques if current guys could give an opinion on...

Are these referring to just the change from 4/5 day holiday destination trips to 3day USA trips or are there more changes to t&c's that us on the outside haven't heard about?


How big a change are the changes having on a persons roster? I.e. a few extra USA per year, half the roster is 3days, roster looks nothing like it did 12months ago?

Is it across all fleets or are some collecting more of the 3day trips than others? I.e. as mostly Airbus routes cancelled are they getting the 3day USA or are the new 787s likely to pick them up?

Really appreciate any answers or personal opinions

VS experimented with cadets and second pilots in the 90s. It wasn't a big success and only 10 (willing to be corrected) pilots went through the system. They were loaned to Brymon (IIRC) to get 1500hrs before coming on line to be second officers. One major limitation was the three monthly sim requirement. VS didn't own sims then.

But I doubt that MPL would work for long haul. My company trains MPL cadets and on limitation is they must start on the narrow body short haul fleet to gain experience quickly. To do 100 hours in a SEP and then go onto being a cruise pilot is going to do nothing for their flying abilities.

They're coming, 100%...after their 250 odd hours on puddle jumpers, they will stay in training for about a year on the 330 before being let loose on unsuspecting Captains!

I was a 250 hour Shed pilot many moons ago and I had no idea what was going on. Took me a few months of multi sector days and patient skippers till I got useful. When I joined Virgin I had 4000 hours of SH to fall back on. I feel for the cadets whomever they may be, they are going to have to be on the ball and then some. They will get help and support from some but most of the line skippers are unhappy because as they say, they are not trainers. I'm not sure that a year of line training, giving the cadets 1000 hours ish when they come online, is enough. However I may be proved wrong!

As for the current working life....I've been here 9 years and could count the number of 'holiday trips' on 1 finger. We are able to choose preferences for our roster and those of us on the bus with a Far East preference are about to see those options reduce to HKG only. That will affect our rosters, leading to more east coast night stops, which is much a much harder lifestyle.

I'm not sure that morale is all that high either. Better perhaps but the new leaders have yet to prove they are anything but spin. Putting all our eggs in the UK/US basket is risky as well. Once again I may be proved wrong! There is no doubt that the Delta tie up has given us a bit more job security, just not a particularly great job perhaps......

It's still better than SH though and if I was a young lo cost skipper I would give it up for this. There's more to life than money and how many of us get to retirement and think 'I wish I spent more time at work'.

Good luck.

A complete and utter disgrace if you ask me (cadets to long haul). What kind of industry are we working in where we are allowing this to happen? This is good for nobody. We are fast entering a situation in aviation of one employer for life and no more movement between airlines. If you ever want to move employer then bad luck because they are only taking cadets. If your employer goes bust or are making redundancies then ditto. We are our own worst enemy in this industry, the bean counters should have been stood up to long ago.

So will this move to low hour cadets put a nail in the coffin for those of us experienced people wanting to move to Virgin?

Certainly looks that way. It's sad that these days your first airline will actually be your last airline too.

There is nowhere to go for experienced guys. The only reason why BA are recruiting is because they're chronically short - otherwise they would wait for the own cadets to come online.

If you were to loose your job (particularly as an FO) then there is really nowhere to go in the UK or Europe. It's the sandpit or the dole queue.

I blame the big schools and the airlines as well as the students. They all created the problem. My only hope is that the students who played a part in creating the problem don't loose their jobs as it will be game over for most of them.

Forget long haul aspirations in the UK now. The cadet oil slick has seeped over.I don't feel sorry for cadets at all. They're adults. Mind you I'd do the same, and what choice does someone looking to join the industry actually have I guess? I'm still not keen on the sheer arrogrance of some of these cadets you meet. They've not had that job flying sheds and grafting with cargo nets to knock them down a peg.

I still have my "real" letter from VAA, posted to me in the mid 90s as a keen PPL. They explained to a young me that no - they don't take inexperienced chaps - they do not run a cadet scheme as they want people with lots and lots of experience- so go out and get some serious experience and hopefully I'll be there very soon. It was a very nice letter. Talk about glass ceilings, it's ballistic grade glass for experienced guys now.

Thanks to Ellis Hill and others for the thoughts from inside about life in VS.

Airlines really can't win, can they?

An airline comes up with a properly funded cadet scheme, where people are recruited for aptitude rather than wallet an all people on here do is whinge!!

Don't pretend that long haul is some kind of a black art. If cadets can cope with high intensity short haul, I'm sure they will manage long haul.

Tourist

It's not a 'black art' but the huge difference is there are times when you may only get to operate one sector every 6 weeks due to leave, training, heavy crews etc so you need experience. The one sector maybe a Canarsie into JFK on a dirty night, not enjoyable for those that have been there on numerous occasions let alone a new boy on a slippery 330 with low hours and experience.

Hmmm some posts seem to have been removed and I'm not sure why?

Either way, a big thanks again to everyone for painting a picture of life in Virgin at the moment and the concerns for the future

I think the cadet scheme is only taking about a dozen cadets a year, the majority of new joiners will be experienced, so don't worry, you'll still get your shot. At the moment, 4000 hours and a face that fits seems to be about the going rate.

I can't think of any other airline job that would be better in all honesty. 750 hours, decent if not class leading pay, a myriad of part time options and great people to fly with. The new boss seems to know what he's doing and has an airline background thankfully. The management need to prove themselves but, to be fair, early indications are pretty good in my opinion.

If Delta brings long term job security, which I believe it will, then I'm ok with the majority of flying being to the US.

Time to command is a while, at around 12 years, but the RHS isn't a bad place to be and I'd rather take a bit longer and be happy in the RHS than miserable in the left and trust me, there are a few of those jobs around.

Only a dozen cadets per year? When was the last time virgin recruited a dozen pilots per year? In essence what you're saying is that virgin's flightdeck requirements will be made up of cadets for the foreseeable future.

There have been about 25-30 recruited this year.

Maybe so, stopstart, but the comment was "per year". When has virgin ever recruited 12 pilots per year for a sustained period of time? I obviously don't work for them, but I'm just saying from observations that surely they barely employ that many pilots year on year. Very happy to be corrected if numbers will dictate that the majority of recruitment will come from experience based on the figures posted by Eye Off The Ball.

850 pilots even with an average 35 year career is a lot more than 6 to 12 a year on average.

Yes but that's only the assumed figure, the other assuming thing is that virgin are going to replace them all. Ten years is a long time, nobody really knows what will happen within that timeframe; expansion? Contraction? The only thing that's known is that approximately 200 are due to retire. Also isn't it against the law to hire "cadets" for the sole purpose of bringing down the age demographic? That's ageism in the highest regard.

The requirement for new joiners is going to shoot up with the looming retirement bulge. I don't have figures but cadets will only form a small proportion of new joiners. So I'm told anyway.

I dont think anyone has made out longhaul is a black art at all have they? Maybe some removed posts did - dont know. I'm not personally moaning, just reflecting how it's changed. I think VAA were always were one of the decent firms who recognised experience. As mentioned it looks like they'll still have a healthy need for experienced guys so fair play to them and I was wrong.

If this is a route Virgin are looking to take what's the chances of them dropping the weight requirement and start considering experienced people flying Turboprops and regional Jets. Surely if you intend to put an individual with no commercial experience and only the minimum number of hours for licence issue in the RHS and say they are more than capable to operate Wide body aircraft in the Long Haul environment an experienced Pilot with plenty of time served should be given the same respect. Of course it's their train set managed by the cheapest option the accountants come up with!!

I'm sure they took some Flybe guys a couple of years back...

HP

We have our own cabin crew with ATPLs who are not being looked at. They want to take people from all backgrounds and bring them on. It's almost a 'big society' thing i'm afraid. So, for now, the only route in is the stated requirements and hope. As has been stated there are a large number retiring over the next 10 years which will not be filled by cadets alone.

As we seem to be changing our routes for short, one night, stops the pilot requirements/recruiting must go down as heavy crews aren't required. If we do introduce some longer routes, then obviously things improve.

4th Para down:

MPL students bust transfer myth - 10/22/2014 - Flight Global

Watch out for your T&C's boys & girls....!

Got to ask the question then...
 

How does an MPL upgrade to a CPL or ATPL?
I was always under the impression that you needed an ATPL or at the very Least a frozen one to operate any Turboprop or Jet aircraft over 5700kg.....
Which is why I sat mine as soon as I could, having had one on the first BCPL's that were issued at the time.

MPL = CPL restricted to Multi-crew aircraft & specific AOC (unless transferred). MPL students have taken the same theory exams, it's "just" the practical training that changes.

MPL -> ATPL is the same process as CPL -> ATPL.

So what about the actual Flying requirements, cross country, IR, total hours (break down of) etc?
An ATPL is only valid with a current IR. what sort of IR will be required for MPL ?
I see the word Transferable being used now. Surely the MPL IS NOT Transferable? Which was the whole point of this type of license in the first place.

It was always transferable but only between participating airlines operating the same type. This is where the Monarch cadets recent got lucky with easyJet whereas Flybe Q400 MPL would not be transferable to A320. Bit of thread drift though...is this not about Virgin? On that note I hear their current holding pool has been told there's nothing until 2016 now. That's the guys who applied in 2013 :bored:

Does anyone know if Virgin is going to fully sponsor the MPL scheme?

This is totally incorrect I'm afraid. All that said Q400 MPL holder would need is their licence derestricted from Flybe after final line check (paperwork exercise) and then an A320 type rating.

Maybe in theory..but that's never gonna happen :rolleyes:

A Flybe MPL student went from the Dash to the EMB145 with a different airline after final line check.

It has happened at least twice already in Flybe!

I don't think there is anyone with a license still restricted to flybe, and yes it is a simple paper exercise. You can then go to any other airline and do a type rating that will then be added to your license the same as any other CPL/IR pilot.

Still. Thread drift.

Regarding moving around on a post-line-check MPL, considering the stigma associated with it (and the ignorance on display here), they are quite 'mobile'. As said previously, Flybe graduates found themselves at a northern EMB operator and and Irish Airbus operator, Monarch guys are at interviews with BA, Flybe and possibly others while the guys currently at CTC have already passed selection with Easyjet. Airlines and the CAA have no problem accommodating those in a pickle.

Would VS sponsor a programme? With CTC involved, not a chance in hell!

So what's the point of the MPL then?

Ed Zachary...... It is just another Money making Scam :ugh:

This time my it's not a money making scam as you will see in the coming weeks.

I don't see Virgin requiring MPL copilots. Most of their Longhaul is two crew aircraft needing experience in the right seat. In fact their latest recruits were ex.heavy jet RAF crew.