They might find the money in asia exciting :}

Some of these new commuting contracts offer you more time at home then Ryanair and Emirates!!

If you are prepared to leave Europe it has to be worth considering going beyond the sand pit and get a commuting contract which offers a lot more money.

Some of the asian carriers treat you very very well. Sandpit or paddy field?

Long rumoured, now reality
 

Emirates DEC recruitment has recommenced. If Emirates decide to recruit FR Captains the "mass exodus" so far is going to seem like a trickle. Combined with a pronounced thinning of the SFO ranks there should be some interesting times ahead.

Im not sure how much of a 'mass exodus' there will be, it's a big thing moving to Dubai for those with families...but those without will prob give it go.

good luck to all!

:ok:

It is indeed a "big thing" moving your family to Dubai but at least, once there, their days off will all be spent with their family rather than losing half of them commuting home every week. For those pilots I'd suggest there isn't a lot to think about. Ryanair seem determined to carry on driving pilots away with basing policies and, more lately, no chance of any summer leave. For many it may be a case of, "may as well just go and live in the sun".
Good luck to them.

I still find it quite staggering that today the total flight hours up front can be less than that required for only the captain by charter airlines only 15 years ago. When & why did the required 'knowledge, experience, capability and maturity' suddenly become diluted? Are the companies now running risk/threat management studies? And deciding that robotic trained SOP monkeys flying around in much improved and reliable a/c, within much improved and reliable ATC areas into much improved airports with ILS's instead of NPA's, or nothing at all, are in fact an acceptable risk? I assume the insurers are part of this decision. But it does seem something that only accountants could tolerate. A pilot driven airline might be more sceptic, but no doubt someone out there will put me right on that. Profit is profit. Now back to watching flying Alaska and Ice pilots.

Yeah, I've been watching Ice Pilots, too.

ice pilots
 

Buffalo Joe McBryan seems even more ruthless than MOL :-O

Hang on, are we still talking about Ryr?!? I wish!!

I still find it quite staggering that today the total flight hours up front can be less than that required for only the captain by charter airlines only 15 years ago. When & why did the required 'knowledge, experience, capability and maturity' suddenly become diluted? Are the companies now running risk/threat management studies? And deciding that robotic trained SOP monkeys flying around in much improved and reliable a/c, within much improved and reliable ATC areas into much improved airports with ILS's instead of NPA's, or nothing at all, are in fact an acceptable risk? I assume the insurers are part of this decision. But it does seem something that only accountants could tolerate. A pilot driven airline might be more sceptic, but no doubt someone out there will put me right on that. Profit is profit. Now back to watching flying Alaska and Ice pilots.

Rapid expansion, good training and FDM. Insurance companies love FDM:O

Required knowledge and capability has not become diluted. Some of the younger guys going through the command process are very capable, trust me. Experience? Yes. Maturity? Sometimes. Experience is by no means a good indicator of safety and talent judging by the recent AAIB reports I have read:bored:

A few tech questions about systems or even better a discussion during the cruise about "what would you do now if..." usually throws 2/3 of them off because they haven't read it in the SOPs.
Some guys are capable but nowadays it is the minority, trust me.
Maturity?The one you can expect from a 25 years old.

27 years of operations, 1300 flights per day, not one fatality.

Don't get me wrong I am no huge fan of Ryanair, however, the training cannot be faulted. Not with stats like those.

It's 17 years, not 27.
Statistics are one thing, the real world is a different story.
Just because we didn't have a fatality that doesn't mean today's standards are the same as they were a couple of years ago.
Lately they are literally sending anybody with 3000hrs for their upgrade and the general levels of knowledge,experience and maturity are lower than they used to be.
I just hope not to be proven right by something unpleasant happening....

Running down the quality of command candidates is misleading and without foundation.The quality of both cadets and command upgrade material is very high. It is not now nor has it ever been easy to pass the Ryanair command upgrade. The expected standard is very high and the time to achieve it is strictly limited, anybody that doesn't is back to the RHS.
Many things make a good captain but some that dont are thousands of hours sat in the RHS watching clouds, flying radar vectored ILS's and 3000m long runways.
How old was Guy Gibson when he was in command of dozens of aircraft and hundreds of men at the time of the Dambusters mission - 24 was he to young/inexperienced/immature. I think not.
To my certain knowledge there is no 'dumbing down' of the upgrade process and it is defenatley not a right of passage. Commands are available for those that want them and are good enough - simple as that.

Hate to break it to you, but it's 27. They started flying in 1985.

Guys at my base ,which is one of the biggest in the whole network, this is the general opinion of the instructors and mine as well.
Then if you talk to junior F/O's they all tell you the same story: Captains who are raised in house are all scared of disconnecting the automatics and there is ever hardly any hand flying going on.
And these F/O's are those who now start their Command upgrade after 3000hrs of autopilot engagement at 400" and LNAV/VNAV flying.
The other day I tried a V/S non precision approach for fun and the guy next to me would have been lost without that vertical path indicator on his ND......

[I]The other day I tried a V/S non precision approach for fun and the guy next to me would have been lost without that vertical path indicator on his ND......[/I]

Naughty, naughty. V/S approaches should not be practised on line. A guy of your calibre should know that ;)

This is exactly what I am referring to when I say the general level is taking a dive.
VNAV approaches are the "preferred" method and V/S approaches are absolutely legal on the line (OPS A 8.3.0.3.8), in fact should you fly a timed non-precision approach which is not in the FMC data base you are supposed to execute a V/S approach (VOl 1 NP 21.67) which is detailed in the normal maneuvers in your QRH (Maneuvers page 2.10).
Fastidious Bob, study your manuals and practice some V/S approaches before you actually need to shoot one downroute.....:=:=:=

I have never worked for Ryanair, although I did once turn down the opportunity to go for an interview with them. Therefore I am not qualified to comment, really...

But the most worrying thing I have read on this thread is that a non precision approach using VS, but presumably flown with the autopilot engaged and in VORLOC, is considered unusual. What happens if they have to fly a night visual approach to an airfield with minimal approach aids and lighting. Until now I thought the stuff about low experience levels on the flight deck was being blown up out of proportion, now I am not so sure...

A few posts ago comment was made about experience required on the flight deck 15 years ago by charter companies. Eighteen months ago I was flying for a small, now extinct Swedish/greek charter company that required 5500 hours, if I remember correctly, for a captain, and had some F/Os with 5000+ hours who previously held commands with another extinct UK charter company but couldn't have a command with Hagars colleagues. Most of the F/Os had 2000 hrs or more so the least experienced crew we sent anywhere had 7500+ between them, and most had many thousands more...

Unfortunately robust SOPs and FDM do not make up for lack of experience...by definition FDM catches people, it doesn't prevent anything except by fear. Whatever anyone might want to believe experience does prevent incidents and accidents...a 737-800 is not a small turboprop or piston twin, and that is where pilots with 3000 hrs TT should be getting command experience, not sitting in a shiny jet with 180 passengers behind them...

Everything Built4Speed said. Plus:
First of the present fleet arrived 2002, so let's call it 10 years for RYR as we know and love it, and stop playing silly buggers about Bandierantes 27 years ago. And it's increased by 600% since then...
Thin ice, skin of the teeth etc. And yes, the fleet is not getting any younger, even if the new skippers are. Have you actually taken the time to talk to the engineers recently? Probably not, as they are spread pretty thin, and sometimes non-existant, and you don't have time anyway, if you are doing all your SOPs properly. How much pressure will there be this summer to carry those "little" snags home to get signed off?
Not allowed to practise V/S approaches on line? Not what the manual says.
Back to thread, anyone? Strike one more off.
Out of here.

Hmmm. Dannyalliga autopilot engagement at 400? Never saw that before its usually MFRA on NADP2 at the very least. Anyway just read a report that just came out about an Air Europa 737-800 going into GCRR. 21NM and 10000 feet they pressed on. Result: Off the end of the runway. Skipper had 14000 hours. Now most 3000 to 4000 hour skippers in Ryanair that I know would have requested an orbit from ATC( our procedures stipulate that you must be above 3000 feet and outside of 10 miles to do this). Or delaying vectors or just hit the triggers and went round. Why? Because this particular incident is why the strict sops at FR are there. Don't knock the young skippers at FR 9 out of 10 of them are SAFE as houses. Simple as that. Name of the game is safety not how good you are at vertical approaches and incidently I do quite a lot of them myself into Kerry when 08 is in use. But I only do it when operationally required. And no I don't need a vertical profile on the ND either