Will you stay at Flybe?
 

So we all know that Flybe's pay, number of days off, general terms and conditions etc are pretty poor compared with UK industry standards. We also know they are a fun company to work for.

I was just wondering firstly, if the upturn happens, are you planning to leave and secondly, why would you leave? Is it to fly something bigger or is it to earn more money and have a better lifestyle? Oh and finally does this new order for 175s make you think twice about leaving?

I'm not a fan of the Dash, but aircraft type is way down my list of priorities.

For me it's a balance of pay and lifestyle, and neither are brilliant at Flybe. Pay has been done to death on here, and I would be amazed if management ever attempted to offer a package that compared with the big boys. The noises coming from BALPA on the current pay negotiations are not at all promising, and I suspect that whatever their expansion plans, management's attitude to pay and pilots is still very much 'small airline / training airline.' I would love to be proved wrong, however.

Pay would be less of an issue if it was compensated by a fantastic lifestyle, but unfortunately it isn't. For example, I'm currently on 2 days off. I got home from work at 23:00 on Friday night, and will leave the house again at 04:30 Monday morning, so my 2 days actually equates to one full evening at home. Repeat ad nauseum. Until recently we had quite a few short 2 sector days to sweeten the pill, but my base now seems to have joined SOU, BHX & MAN in getting some seriously long (10hr+) 4 and 5 sector duties. (And before the Airbus drivers jump in and tell us we don't know we're born, try a few of those in a cramped, noisy, challenging turboprop that's liable to bite you if you take your eye off it for 30 seconds). Increasingly I'm zombified by the end of the week. Again, I'm not optimistic about an improvement; lates to earlies was an issue when I joined the company, and still is. There appears to be unlimited capacity for prevarication and stalling, and it would take a major exodus to get their attention, by which time it would be too late.

Set against the above issues, the chance to fly an E-jet, while mildly exciting, wouldn't be enough to keep me (or, I suspect, many of my colleagues). It's really very simple – if the company fails to offer a competitive remuneration and lifestyle package, then once the opportunities start to appear, people will vote with their feet. T'was ever so.

G-Sxty,

I hate to make bitter and negative comments, but if your first type had been a non automated Shorts 360, HS748 or L188, then you could talk about challenging turbo-props; as I have never flown a dash then I can't really comment, but in comparison an EFIS equipped Dash 8-Q400 wouldn't be regarded as one of the more challenging types out there.

Two replies and we're off at a tangent already – the miracles of Pprune.

I base my view on having flown it day-in, day-out for the last couple of years, as well as the vast experience of colleagues who have flown everything from DC3s, DC6s (and yes, even L188s) through to fast jets, DC-10s and 747s. Almost without exception, the Q400 is regarded as an aircraft at the trickier end of the scale.

It's a 29t MTOW turboprop with 10,000hp, giving it close on jet levels of performance – at least at low level – but with none of the refinements. It also has an extensive list of gotchas. But then again, as you said:

Back to the thread then.

So then Mr SXTY is being an airline pilot still as exciting and worth all the hasle you went through to get here, or is it just a job now like many others that helps to pay the bills and mortgage, sounds to me your honeymoon period is over !! If only all the wannabees could project ahead 2-3 years and realize what this industry is actually like, it may, i feel curtail many people from throwing lots of money at these false promise training organizations !! Thoughts please !! I know you will your an addict !! ;)

Agree with G-SXTY completely.

Flybe pay is substantially less than all other major carriers.
Perks, food, staff travel, duty pay etc are minimal.
It cannot be said that lifestyle is great, as stated above finishing at 2200 on Friday and starting at 0430 on monday is not adequate for rest (Easy 5/4 anyone??)
Therefore I suggest that unless things improve drastically there will be a mass exodus to greener pastures!!

Shiny 170's will not stem the flow, if the condition gap was big for flying turbo props, then jet to jet the gap is bigger (no more the "it's only a prop" excuse)
Also there are many ex airbus and Boeing pilots on the dash, and they all say it is trickier to fly, more got yers and a more tiring days work than the big jets!!

Flybe, it's your call !!!

I agree with everything that has been said so far...

I love flying the Dash (yes, I know!), and I think FlyBE are a good company with great people working for them...

But, the pay and lifestyle are the two biggest issues for me. And both of these are badly affecting my standard of life right now. The pay here is pretty minimal - and at the end of a good month of pay, I'm lucky if I can even save £50. Not only that, but the pay offer from the company was really nothing short of derisery - I wouldn't have minded too much if the company had said "No payrise this year", but to offer us a 0.3% payrise on top of annual increments is just disgusting. The 2% payrise would have been somewhere in the region of an extra £10 a month after tax, which was unexpected - but 0.3% is not worth bothering with at all.

With regards to lifestyle, I have been working a lot recently - many 6 day weeks and have only had 2 days off in between them, and straight into another 6 day week. The missus AD complains that when she sees me, I'm tired, grumpy, fed up, and has been threatening to leave me. I cannot continue with this incessant level of work at the moment. Then the issue of days off - I cannot believe that the company are playing such hardball with us on this. How can crew food be used as a bargaining chip against having extra days off?

In short, I'm actively searching for new jobs. I hear that a Q400 operator in Europe pays it's pilots nearly twice as much, and gives a better lifestyle, and whereas I've had a great time flying with FlyBE, it's high time the company accepted that if they want us to hang around, then they cannot continue to treat us like this.

Interesting reading this.
I come from a slightly different perspective in that I am generally happy with my job (DH8D LHS) but agree with most of the posters here, albeit no quite so negative.
My background was as a training captain with a small turboprop airline and single pilot /multi pilot with a well known Midlands based freight operator.
The previous jobs gave me more money, particularly the last one and I took a substantial hit when I joined Flybe; in the order of £800 -£1000 per month take home. However, despite the lates to earlies issue, I do get more time at home than previously. A new baby was one of the reasons I left my previous employer and time at home was premium. The trade off of cash versus time was one that needed to be made. I had to rationalise my spending and lower my overheads to live within my new means, and I have done that.
For me it was the right choice, my former employer went under around one year after I left leaving many capable and competant pilots out of work with a pretty limited type rating. Some have lucked in and got jobs (albeit in far flung places) others are still looking. The pay cut I took was much preferable to life on the dole with an uncertain future...
However, now that the summer is here we are working hard, and certainly not being paid enough for our efforts. Five consecutive doubles (three earlies in that) , two days off then straight back into it does hit hard, and I am knackered this week.
The Dash can be tricky and does require a constant eye to prevent a trip to Exeter for Big Mac and cheese, so far avoided. But despite this I do enjoy flying it (and I do come from the DC6).
The E-Jet story was mildly exciting just from the point of view of the health of the company. Being in the bottom levels of seniority I have a vested interest in that! However, I agree with the feeling that foreign bases will see most of them and I have no wish to move.
To sum up I hope for more pay, and our loyalty to be properly rewarded. Lates to earlies would be nice if sorted out but I can live with it.
I am not amongst those who are actively looking for other employment, my desire to live where I live limits that to Flybe.

CRX.


BTW Crew food? My chickens love it! Particularly the 'Crudites'...

Another FlyBE exodus? Quelle surprise! It was great to get a job but the lifestyle described above is miserable after a while and the pay in way compensates for the unremitting grind. Quite enjoyed flying the Dash but 6 sector days soon robbed me of any pleasure. Even getting home every night didn't really help because I was too knackered to do anything. Now flying the Airbus so more money, better lifestyle, less fatigue.

IMHO having worked for flybe for 12 months after the merger with BA Connect, things will not change in that airline, they are happy for it to be a constant training organization with fresh new eyes wide open first officers. As for the company council well, they never had that much luck in negotiating a good deal when I was there, it was more like they were told what was happening by the management and they basically accepted it. On a positive note Flybe offers 1. A good starter airline for new guys entering the industry, 2. A good airline for people who live around regional airports who enjoy living and working there, 3.A good airline for experienced guys and girls who have been there a long time and don't want to loose there seniority, 4. A good airline for peolpe who have done enough flying for larger companys such as TC, MON, Emirates. 4. An airline with good training standards and excellent trainers. So if you dont like it and your unhappy with your lot, just leave because it won't change to suit the pilots wishes. Finally be very nice in your exit interview and answer the questions with what they want to hear and not what you really think because you never know, one day you may go back there looking for work !!!

Flybe conditions for pilots
 

Unfortunately I have to agree with all the negative comments previously posted,I could live on the salary but the lates to earlies issue is a killer for me, there is no real quality of life with this system. I wonder what will happen when an incident occurs which is directly attributed to fatigue or will there be a notac to cover this? With such minimal free time it is more than just a bit annoying when delays generated by the company eat into our limited free time (a/c swaps, holding for connecting flts etc.) Let's not mention "metered events" which basically mean that pilots can't even plan a life OUTSIDE the roster!!
Sadly the management seem blind to what can only be described as very poor morale across the fleet - or don't seem to care! I'm sure there will be a mass exodus as the market recovers and this can't be good as the experience level across the fleet will in all probability drop. A similar situation arose, I believe about 5yrs ago.
I have flown quite a few a/c and I can say that in my experience the Q400 is one of the more difficult turbo props to fly well.
All told it would only take a minor adjustment to the stance the management have adopted to make it a much better place to be which can only be seen as cost effective in the returns of "good will" which would certainly be manifested in financial terms.

I was part of that exodus about 5 years ago. Of the dozen or so on our Dash type-rating course I believe there's only one pilot still in the company.

Also concur with all of the above. Goodwill certainly seems to be running out at Flybe, and considering that the airline is run with a healthy dose of goodwill from crew, this is significant. It is also an unfortunate situation - Flybe have done very well of late, winning a clutch of awards and staying in profit throughout the downturn. However, apart from the odd notice of thanks from Jim, absolutely nothing else has been offered to the employess.

It is no secret that it is the intention of the management to float the company as soon as conditions are right. Admirable intentions, however an underpaid and malcontent workforce will not be happy if they are used as a cost-saving measure in order to pep up the company's books.

Seem to remember getting a £10 M & S voucher when I was with FlyBE - whoopy doo! Some incentive/thank you!

Thank you notes from Jim are even better.

As one of my old F/Es used to say "For God's sake don't give us any more money just send us thank-you notes. They impress the hell out of my bank manager".

He was a bit of a cynic I would have to say!

A reply for SEAMASTER
 

'Course I'm an addict – I'm building an Airfix Sea Harrier on my days off – how sad is that? (I suppose it could be worse – it could be a model Dash). I love flying, it's under my skin, and not a day goes by when I don't appreciate how lucky I am to paid to do something I enjoy. If I have one regret it's that I didn't change careers years ago. I also appreciate that Flybe is one of very few airlines that will take on 30-something wet ink CPLs (like me) and not shaft them with type rating costs or pay-to-fly schemes.

However, as is often said, gratitude and appreciation don't pay the mortgage or put fuel in the car. I went into this job with my eyes wide open, and Flybe's reputation as a training airline with a high turnover of FOs isn't exactly breaking news (in fairness, it's one of the reasons I got a job). It's their train set, and if that's how they want to operate it, fair enough, I'm under no illusions about where I stand. What does grate, however, is the constant stream of missives from Exeter, praising us for helping to keep the company in profit through the recession and keeping our passengers flying through snowdrifts, volcanic eruptions and plagues of frogs, and telling us how important we all our, while at the same time there is an extreme reluctance to engage on pay and rostering, the two issues that everyone – and I mean everyone – cite as their main reasons for looking elsewhere. Personally I find that rather patronising. What's worse is to find out from the union (not management) that our 2% pay offer now suddenly includes our contractual increments, resulting in a negligible real terms pay rise. That I find insulting.

I've been around the block a couple of times, and disconnect between management words and actions isn't exactly unique to Flybe. I'm also aware that company cultures are generally set in stone, and as they have a very successful business model, I can't see anything changing unless people are leaving faster than they can replace them. And with an endless supply of 200hr wannabes (like I was) that's never going to happen.

Standing back from it all (and noting that the E175 numbers suggest a doubling of fleet size) it will be fascinating to see how the company manages a rapid transition from 'Europe's biggest little airline' to serious player, and whether a "so what?" attitude to pilot turnover is compatible with that transition. If Joe average joins with 200hrs, flies 600hrs per year and has had enough and jumps ship after 3 years, that suggests a typical RHS experience level of around 1100-1500hrs. The bean counters would probably be happier with that figure than flight ops . . .

You could slow a Q400 down from 240kts at 5 miles on the ILS? And climb at 5,000fpm? Are you sure you've actually flown the Q400?

Hot diggity! I've gotta get me one of them big 'ole stetsons.

Thank The Lord for FDM. :D

Mr SXTY thanks for your opinion on things and may I say in a mature, say it as it is kind of way. It is refreshing to see you are not defending your patch just because you lie in it ! It seems to me that you are more than on the ball with life in and around Flybe, however the points you make were visable problems when i flew for them, rostering, pay, lifestyle and that doggy bag crew food. These were all the same problems that had been in place previous to my employment at Flybe, see the trend developing ? Mr french ran it then and still does today, it is'nt going to change. Don't get me wrong life is'nt perfect in the airline I work for 90-100 hour months, lots of disruption and changes to your working month but somehow I am a lot happier now than back then. It very much seems to me that you are ready for a change in direction and I am sure if that is what you desire, that is what you will achieve. All the best my friend I wish you well !!

It looks like it will be a very up hill battle to bring in any improvements at Flybe given the current management. They have said "you can have any changes and improvements you like, as long as it doesn't cost the company a penny"
So much for a pay rise!!!
Me thinks with all the fuel saving, pension cost cutting, free f/o's and no pay rises, they are only interested in making the books look good for a company sale.
The big question is who would want in???
Last rumour I heard was it could be for sale by October.


A couple of guys already off to the sandpit, believe more awaiting final decisions.
Could be a lot more if Easy said that a q400 qualifies for DEP to fill their short comings!!:}

What is the AVG take home for an F/O and Capt with flybe?

Before you say it, I tried a search and must be doing something wrong as just a !!!! load of moaning came up:ok::O

All salaries are available on the Flybe website.

Don't forget to add on the duty pay, £1.90 per hour!!!!!!!!!!

so thats about an extra 1600ish before tax ontop of the publiushed salaries then?

cheers for the reply

Couldn't have said it better myself
 

G-SXTY and all the others - I couldn't have said it better myself. To be honest if they kept the lates to earlies but made the roster 5/3 fixed and added £10 000 to everyone's pay after 3 years and brought in loads of E-Jets with decent hot crew food I would stay forever as I suspect many others would.

We'd then be just below the industry average terms and conditions.

At my base I currently only know of one F/O who plans to stay, I know several Captains who already have apps in progress.

Re: salary expect to take home £1600/month F/O year 1, by year 3 that will be approx £1950. For Captains I gather year 1 equates to around £3200 take-home.

Desk-pilot

G SXTY, Desk-Pilot and others...

Do not be fooled it's any better anywhere else...bigger machines and bigger airlines means bigger politics and just bigger issues...management attitudes remain the same!

The best job is whatever suits your personal circumstances, you can keep chasing and making life's sacrifices for this career, but very little changes, same problems - different coloured aircraft!

And on that cheery note...

Cheers
JB

Thats as maybe JB, but that take home pay is astonishingly low! :eek:

Indeed it is Time Traveller! I remember earning as little as that when I was operating a turbo-prop - it was the best fun i've had yet!

That pay might just about be an acceptable trade off if the lifestyle was great - but in flybe it isn't. The specific issues such as finishing on lates and starting on earlies, and the 108 day off fixation have already been mentioned by previous posters, and I agree with then completely.

Royston Vasey sums it up well: "So, in years to come when the family have grown up so fast you're wondering where the time went; and you're kids are overheard saying that Dad / Mum were 'always at work' you need to ask yourself....
Were all those six-on two-off, start on earlies and finish on lates really worth it."

I have been trying to get out for two years or so, but in the meantime flybe have severly limited my ability to support my children through crucial years - and I will never forgive them for that.

the "doggy bag" crewfood that we get on the aircraft is pretty poor. The sandwich choice is mediocre, at best, and the salads are more likely to spark off mass botulism than provide adequate nourishment... If the crew food was to be a little bit more balanced, it would be acceptable, but can you honestly name one person who wants to go for a "salmon and cucumber" sandwich that is slightly mouldy, with soggy bread?

And the Crudites... don't even get me started on them! The only thing they're good for is for throwing at the other guy when he passes wind.

However, as much as we may moan about crewfood, there are some redeeming things to it - and at least we still get it. But it could be a lot better, granted.

Paywise - in my first base, for the first year and a half, I couldn't make ends meet. I lived on my credit card, and was getting scuppered by the interest on it. However, as my payscale went up, I've been able to pay back a large percentage of that debt now, and am finally starting to see the end of the tunnel. But as for saving up any money at all, it remains a long way off - any that is saved come the end of the month goes on petrol, or fuel bills or car maintainance or just having 1 day out with the Mrs.

If FlyBE were to up the pay - eg - after 3 years service to the company, it was to be raised £10k, then I would be a lot happier than I am right now. As it is though, they don't, and I will continue to struggle with the pay, and the lates to earlies issue.

I think that some of you need to check your ops manual. If you are finishing past 23:00 you have not had a legal day off.
You need 2 local nights and 34hrs (please check, these are off the top of my head) for a day off. You cannot go from that late at night to 04:30 in 2 days time.
Say NO!!!!

It could all be so different!
 

At the end of 2008, when I was made redundant from my last job, I had the (enviable) choice between Flybe and my current employer. Both fly Q400 / Emd 195 and both pay about the same. The difference is that my company has one of the best pilots' agreements I have experienced. The highlights include:

- 120 days off a year;
- guaranteed 30 off in 90;
- maximum 5 days on;
- overtime above 140 duty hrs per month (35 hrs pw) at ca. 35 € per duty hr;
- roster changes inside 3 days voluntary and paid at 100 € per change.

Now, for that we are away an awful lot (15 nights this month) but the hotels are first class and breakfast is included (rapidly becoming a luxury) and free WLAN is generally included (a requirement for the EFB).

All that doesn't happen by itself and we are continually being told that we are too expensive and inflexible - my god, the company even pays the type rating! Until last year, the pay was really derisory (basically Eastern Airways level), but after a lot of sabre rattling, two half day strikes sealed the deal at 16.8%, which in the middle of the financial crisis was a pretty good result.

The moral of the story, until you get yourselves together and down tools nothing is likely to improve. I suggest all of you writing here take a look at yourselves and ask what you are doing about it. Are you at least in BALPA? It always amazes me how many people complain and then admit to not even being in a union.

At some point in the future I would like to come back to the UK and Flybe would be one of my preferred employers, but until some of the issues mentioned here are addressed I would find it very hard to sign on the dotted line.

KT

Who is it you work for?

Do you really think everyone is that stupid and would to along with something so blatantly illegal?

You quote figures which are correct, but you have misinterpreted the situation.

The lates to earlies issue surrounds TWO days off. So, you could be rostered to finish at 2200 on Monday and then start again at 0600 on Thursday i.e. the scheduling agreement minimum of 56 hours at the planning stage (34 is only for a single day). This is worsened though as the SA allows crewing to reduce this to the CAP371 minimum of 54 hours...meaning one could finish at 2359 on the Monday - and still be legal to come in at 0600 on the Thursday!!!!!

Why are your 'managers' so intransigent when it comes to this early/late issue? On rostering software it can be resolved with the click of a mouse. Or are they using the issue to gain leverage from you on some other matter? Having read the preceding posts it doesn't look as if you have too much to give away, in any case.

I would agree with Knee Trembler; you need to get yourselves organised and not succumb to the 'glad I've got a job' mentality that the management encourages and thrives upon. There have been several very successful 'walk-outs' by pilots during this recession; just look at your german colleagues. If a flotation is in the offing, then French has far more to lose than you.

Sounds like Baboo - they also operate Q400s and E190/195s.

Augsburg Airways (Lufthansa regional) also operate Q400s and Embraers....

I am from the group near the top of the seniority list.

I have seen the airline grow from a Shed/Fokker operation into an airline now flying some of the most advanced equipment going.

We have become a major player in Europe and have now got world-wide recognition, our success and growth has been phenomenal.

I think our growth and sucess has taken everyone by surprise, not least management who now manage a pilot workforce of over 700 pilots... and many more to come.

BALPA recognition is still in its infancy compared to most other airlines, it will take a while for a mutual respect to grow. These are tough times for any airline at the moment but our model and business is succeeding, I hope that after guaranteeing survival of the business Exeter looks at its people and works to improve our conditions and working patterns.

I have progressed very quickly with the airline, it offers quick commands and opportunities to train far quicker than elsewhere.

At the end of the day getting home every night (ok 99% of the time) and living 10 minutes away from work (and London prices) is worth an extra 10 grand to me.

The future looks bright too, name another UK airline that has just put in a potential £5 billion order for new aircraft to 2017......

But that is just me, if it doesn't do it for you then go look elsewhere ;)

Do you work for Flybe?!?

@Royston Vasey.

A rather arrogant and ignorant post, if I may say so.

Nevertheless, I'm intrigued to understand your logic. What are the 'seat blockers' supposed to do exactly, make themselves unemployed so that someone else can have a go?

As to your comment regarding ambition. Not everyone sees their future in long haul or the middle east. And for those who want to stay in the UK, there's no real alternative at the moment. Where exactly should their ambition take them?

KT

RV...

An unbelievably arrogant post....

'Maybe they've had no ambition or are unhireable in the wider environment - you decide'.

Working with the likes of you would put me off in the first place.

Don't speak for the masses when you clearly are not one of them.